Author Topic: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?  (Read 9798 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« on: Sat, 01 October 2022, 10:14:44 »
seems like random prices, ontop of misuse of measurement methodology.


Offline SBJ

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 01 October 2022, 10:23:48 »
seems like random prices, ontop of misuse of measurement methodology.

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You're going to need to clarify what you mean?
I don't have audiophile stuff I'd say.
Got 1 schiit modi + 1 schiit loki hooked up to a HAD-1.
The magic happens in the Loki tho, I love what it does to the sound.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 01 October 2022, 16:23:03 »
A lot of room treatment stuff is very overpriced and easy to make fun of, but SBJ is right, there is a huge spectrum.
Cables are another one, I laugh at people who buy there absurd thicc $1k audio cables as if it makes any difference at all whatsoever vs a $100 cable.
And the only people who own these $200k systems are ancient men who's ears and audio range capabilities are already failing so they cannot hear their system properly anyway. Like old people who buy a Ferrari so they can drive 30mph to the bingo parlor.
« Last Edit: Sat, 01 October 2022, 16:24:53 by noisyturtle »

Offline yui

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 03 October 2022, 15:09:27 »
there is a lot of completely wack **** in audiophile stuff, look at the latest Techmoan video for a cd demagnetizer for example, or ltt's video on hdmi cables they even sell audiophile grade ethernet cables, but on the other side of the spectrum you have things that actually matter, like good dacs that do not have a crazy noise floor and amps that do not distort the sound too much... you need to sift through the mud of bs to find the pearls of truth :)
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 03 October 2022, 15:51:13 »
I'm only familiar with the headphone side of audiophilia where frequency response graphs have their place but they rely on fake ear canals which may or may not be similar to your ear.  I've listened to the Sennheiser Orpheus and while I wouldn't pay $50,000 for a set they did sound very good...

I don't have audiophile stuff I'd say.
Got 1 schiit modi + 1 schiit loki hooked up to a HAD-1.
The magic happens in the Loki tho, I love what it does to the sound.
So that's an amp and a hardware equaliser?  Definitely audiophile stuff, just sensibly priced :thumb:  What's your source?
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Offline Sniping

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 03 October 2022, 22:38:44 »
I feel like there's a good amount of BS and even more people that can't tell the difference. To me it's a hobby with people with such deep pockets that you need to really constantly ask yourself what you actually need to have in order to fulfill your needs and when you're just flat out wasting money

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 03 October 2022, 23:02:57 »
I feel like there's a good amount of BS and even more people that can't tell the difference. To me it's a hobby with people with such deep pockets that you need to really constantly ask yourself what you actually need to have in order to fulfill your needs and when you're just flat out wasting money


the cheapos out there are recommending aiyama a07, honestly it's still really expensive for what it is.



Offline SBJ

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 04 October 2022, 07:14:21 »
I'm only familiar with the headphone side of audiophilia where frequency response graphs have their place but they rely on fake ear canals which may or may not be similar to your ear.  I've listened to the Sennheiser Orpheus and while I wouldn't pay $50,000 for a set they did sound very good...

I don't have audiophile stuff I'd say.
Got 1 schiit modi + 1 schiit loki hooked up to a HAD-1.
The magic happens in the Loki tho, I love what it does to the sound.
So that's an amp and a hardware equaliser?  Definitely audiophile stuff, just sensibly priced :thumb:  What's your source?
My PC is the source atm, I'm listening to FLAC through Plex (I rip all my albums and put 'em on there, so easy)

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 04 October 2022, 09:13:33 »
My PC is the source atm, I'm listening to FLAC through Plex (I rip all my albums and put 'em on there, so easy)

idk bluejuice,  Plex doesn't have enough audiophile street-cred...

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 04 October 2022, 14:58:14 »


the cheapos out there are recommending aiyama a07, honestly it's still really expensive for what it is.

<$100 for an amp that's not terrible?  That's hard to complain about...

My PC is the source atm, I'm listening to FLAC through Plex (I rip all my albums and put 'em on there, so easy)
idk bluejuice,  Plex doesn't have enough audiophile street-cred...
Never mind the software, there's not even mention of a dedicated soundcard - audiophile club membership revoked :p
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Offline Sintpinty

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 04 October 2022, 15:55:03 »
seems like random prices, ontop of misuse of measurement methodology.

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yeah it pretty much is, got some 120 dollar sennheizer headphones they work great and all but i dont really see the upper tier ones like sonys

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 04 October 2022, 23:23:29 »
seems like random prices, ontop of misuse of measurement methodology.

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yeah it pretty much is, got some 120 dollar sennheizer headphones they work great and all but i dont really see the upper tier ones like sonys
Sennheiser go way more expensive than Sony - see The Orpheus.  I have listened to a pair of these and they did sound great, couldn't fault the comfort either.  But at that price you'd expect nothing less

Also if you happen to have the HD555 you might want to look into modding them into 595 by removing the foam - that's serious audiophile BS.
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Offline SBJ

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 05 October 2022, 05:35:01 »
My PC is the source atm, I'm listening to FLAC through Plex (I rip all my albums and put 'em on there, so easy)
idk bluejuice,  Plex doesn't have enough audiophile street-cred...
Never mind the software, there's not even mention of a dedicated soundcard - audiophile club membership revoked :p
Haha - I didn't think a soundcard was necessary as the USB had ample power to get the signal to the DAC. :))

TP: Plex runs fine for my usage. Plays flac perfectly. And the indexing? Oh my lord it's easy, just slap the ripped audio into a folder and plex takes care of the rest. <3

Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 14 October 2022, 09:20:17 »
From what I've gathered recently, most Audiophiles shun dedicated sound cards - I still run a SB Zx and it more than powers what I have to the point I can't go above 25 in Windows in most applications.  Also I think Plex might have gained more cred with teaming up with Tidal for music, even give a discount for the service.

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Offline SBJ

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 14 October 2022, 10:26:36 »
From what I've gathered recently, most Audiophiles shun dedicated sound cards - I still run a SB Zx and it more than powers what I have to the point I can't go above 25 in Windows in most applications.  Also I think Plex might have gained more cred with teaming up with Tidal for music, even give a discount for the service.
Might have to look into that tidal thing. :P Been using Plex for my music since I found out about it - wanted to be able to play my music collection away from home.

I'm not an audiophile - at least I don't think so, that would require sinking lots of money into it, and I don't want to.
I kinda just wanted to be able to manipulate the sound more to my liking. Which the Loki does really well for my usage.
I know someone with a pair of 10k DKR headphones, it's about $1311(freedom units.) and I can't spend that amount of money, no matter how much I love listening to music through my audio gear.

Offline Pretendo

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 14 October 2022, 21:44:23 »
The audiophile scene is rife with BS, but not everything relating to getting the best sound out of an audio setup is BS.

Some examples of myths in the audiophile community:

Myth: As a rule, vinyl records sound better than digital media.

Fact: While vinyl records can sound very good, and a well mastered vinyl record may be better than a poorly mastered or highly compressed digital file, the physical limitations of vinyl mean that a record will always reproduce sound less faithfully than a CD or better quality digital audio file.  Records can still be fun and worthwhile to collect though.

Myth: Silver / Oxygen Free Copper / Rosin Core / [insert fancy material here] speakers will reproduce sound more faithfully than generic speaker wire.

Fact: Any copper wire that reaches the proper gauge to handle the wattage delivered to the speaker and makes good contact at the connection points will perform the same.  You can use lamp cord and it will work fine.

Myth: "Dirty power" from the walls effects the sound quality coming out of your audio amplifier for... reasons, and you need to replace the lead-in from the wall outlet to your amp to fix this (or buy an amp that comes with said fancy wire).

Fact: There's hundreds of miles of wire going from the power plant to your house, and hundreds more feet going from your house to that wall outlet.  The type of wire running the last ten feet or so will make no difference.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 14 October 2022, 21:49:22 »
Lies, Beryllium speaker = best

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 04:38:55 »
I'm not an audiophile - at least I don't think so, that would require sinking lots of money into it, and I don't want to.
An audiophile is someone who appreciates and actively listens to music rather than using it as background noise or fashion (people who spend silly money on Beats headphones, which are almost always not worth half their price tag), you know what a DAC is rather than just plugging in to your motherboard soundcard so I suspect suspect you are one.  Contrary to my joke above and what most people think Audiophile is not a derogatory term reserved for people with more money than sense who are laughed at by true audiophiles and "normal" people alike, so wear your badge with pride :)

From what I've gathered recently, most Audiophiles shun dedicated sound cards - I still run a SB Zx and it more than powers what I have to the point I can't go above 25 in Windows in most applications.  Also I think Plex might have gained more cred with teaming up with Tidal for music, even give a discount for the service.
There's volume which is what everyone thinks an amp is for then there is power which is what an amp is actually for - unless you have headphones that need significantly more power than they're getting there is nothing to be gained by getting an amp (I note the Zx has an extension for easy unplugging and what appears to be a volume knob - nice!)

The audiophile scene is rife with BS, but not everything relating to getting the best sound out of an audio setup is BS.
...
Myth: Silver / Oxygen Free Copper / Rosin Core / [insert fancy material here] speakers will reproduce sound more faithfully than generic speaker wire.
I agree with all you say but am amused by the mention of rosin core which I'd only ever heard of in the context of soldering where it definitely makes life easier; a quick search revealed nothing else.  While flux residue can be conductive I can't believe anyone would put it in an audio cable (though in the world of audiophile BS maybe they did!)

Lies, Beryllium speaker = best
Beryllium is used for the speaker cone because it's stiff not the coil (wire) so yes, it can make a difference :)
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Offline SBJ

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 09:49:25 »
I'm not an audiophile - at least I don't think so, that would require sinking lots of money into it, and I don't want to.
An audiophile is someone who appreciates and actively listens to music rather than using it as background noise or fashion (people who spend silly money on Beats headphones, which are almost always not worth half their price tag), you know what a DAC is rather than just plugging in to your motherboard soundcard so I suspect suspect you are one.  Contrary to my joke above and what most people think Audiophile is not a derogatory term reserved for people with more money than sense who are laughed at by true audiophiles and "normal" people alike, so wear your badge with pride :)
Haha alright then.
I do listen to a lot of music, sometimes in the background, but a lot of times I'm listening to new stuff and figuring out if it's worth getting, so that gets my full attention along with just, really good albums. :P
It's one of the reasons I made it out of my divorce with my sanity.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 09:52:48 »
Tp4 is in audiophile purgatory.  Tp4 is gud' enough to sightread sheet music, but does not possess the processing power to "enjoy" the music simultaneously because of how much processing power the decode and coordination takes.

Gonna upgrade piano to probably those budget elac speakers.

Offline Olumin

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 10:19:25 »
Piano is my favourite instrument by far & I always wish I could have learned the piano as a kid, but my parents never supportet it. Now I feel like im too old to start fresh.
Though I doubt I would have even had the patience to learn as a kid, with my ADHD and all.

Once you become proficient at the piano there's also the Fortepiano, Clavichord & Harpsichord which are wonderful as well & actually suit some some baroque and classical compositions better then modern piano. I like Bach on harpsichord & Mozart on fortepiano. It can completely transform certain pieces. Listen to Mozarts Turkish March on Clavichord/Harpsichord & at historical tempo for example.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 10:24:23 »

An audiophile is someone who appreciates and actively listens to music


By that definition I have definitely been an audiophile for over half a century.

I have read that people feel that music sounds "best" on the type of gear and in the environment that they originally listened to it with great engagement and appreciation.

Today I do 90%+ of my listening (not counting the car radio) on my computer sound system (a Logitech 5.1 set that was "the best "bang" for about $200 bucks about a decade ago at Micro Center) and the remaining 10% of serious listening on a hodge-podge of 1970s-1980s "mid-upper consumer grade" stereo gear. My Technics direct drive turntable is fairly straightforward and not over-much, but I am scrupulous about keeping it equipped with a good cartridge and fresh stylus.

America is becoming a country that can no longer question itself, invest in the public good or imagine a future beyond the dreamscapes of the rich and ruling elite. Apocalyptic fears, uncertainties and anxieties feed a rising tsunami of violence that has become the organizing principle of governance, everyday life and society itself. American society is caught in the daily routines of lies, corruption and manufactured ignorance; one consequence is the withering of individual and social agency along with civic culture and the public imagination. American optimism has turned bleak. In the age of gangster capitalism, people lose their interconnections, community and sense of security. Isolation and anxiety gives way to mass depression and is ripe for expressions of rage and hatred. The guard rails of justice, compassion, the welfare state, politics, democratic values and the institutions that nourish them are under threat of disappearing. Apocalyptic terrors have moved from the realm of fiction into the social fabric of everyday life. - Henry Giroux 2023-03-05

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 11:53:15 »
Piano is my favourite instrument by far & I always wish I could have learned the piano as a kid, but my parents never supportet it. Now I feel like im too old to start fresh.
Though I doubt I would have even had the patience to learn as a kid, with my ADHD and all.

Once you become proficient at the piano there's also the Fortepiano, Clavichord & Harpsichord which are wonderful as well & actually suit some some baroque and classical compositions better then modern piano. I like Bach on harpsichord & Mozart on fortepiano. It can completely transform certain pieces. Listen to Mozarts Turkish March on Clavichord/Harpsichord & at historical tempo for example.


Fortepiano sounds ok, very crudely we can describe it as "less steinway" because they're not cross strung.  they also have less sustain, so single notes don't sound as rich.

calvichord, harpsichord only sounds good for about 10 minutes, they're very fatiguing to listen to at length because they're peaky and have a shrillness.

You can definitely learn piano as an adult, the barrier is as you say patience and time constraint. It's a 1-3 hours a day thing, so if you've got a job, wife, progeny, it's a difficult balance.

In terms of playing a few songs, basic technique/ memorization is the first hurdle but very manageable. the larger cliff to climb is sightreading, this is a multi-year endeavor, equivalent to learning a completely new language + typing. this cliff is steep because it imparts extreme mental stress in the beginning, most people give up. The majority of non-pro pianists, even if they can play a few high level pieces are terrible readers, even many teachers fall into this category.  It's kind of like the middle ages, most everyone can learn to speak naturally, but very few people were actually literate.  The music world has essentially regressed since the stronger bygone age of pianism in the 20s-60s

the "third" hurdle is maintenance/ perseverance,  in mid life, you ask yourself Why bother.

if the goal is hedonism, pianism is not on its own more worthwhile than video games or drugs or alcohol. so it's up to the user to define goals and reason for continuation. /crisis point.

in the current framework,  structurally the social psyche has nearly erased all forms of temperance. behavioral sink has become massively profitable, gluttony (obesity), lust (pros7itution/pr0n/secs addiction), pain prevention (medical interventions for lifestyle diseases). This persistent satiety of our hedonic drive is the core distraction lulling our sleepwalk into climate change oblivion.

Tp4 believes a step back into older forms of entertainment is mellow and worthwhile, but it is likely only because he's had the luck of exposure, and a mostly hardship free existence to pursue it.

The truth is, it is with almost 100% certainty mass famine is coming. at which point we would be resetting into smaller tribal societies, until large animal life become unsustainable for 3000-100,000 years due to high radiation lvls damaging dna too quickly. we've already built up enough nv(lear waste for this to occur should industrial functions collapse, no power no cooling pools, no new steel/ concrete containers.

This movie recent, Vesper, they have these citadel dome cities, where the rich have everything, and then the people who never made it in are outdoors surviving on scraps.   The premise at a glance looks odd, if they clearly have the technology, why not open the citadel, revive the whole planet.  Well, the counter to that is, too many minds, too little agreement is how they drove the planet to wasteland in the first place.

Again, this gets into a technolunacy/technodelusion area where we are "convinced" our technology or personal resolve can be of any use in a planetary salvation.  That is clearly not how a planet works, it takes every creature, plant and rock for LIFE to function, as every component evolved concurrently. So a weakness in any sector will collapse the whole to base states of lower complexity/maintenance.

Iceball Earth / Irradiated Earth are the 2 likely candidates.
 

But Tp4 would still like to upgrade piano speakers before that happens.


Offline yui

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 13:34:00 »

An audiophile is someone who appreciates and actively listens to music


By that definition I have definitely been an audiophile for over half a century.

I have read that people feel that music sounds "best" on the type of gear and in the environment that they originally listened to it with great engagement and appreciation.

Today I do 90%+ of my listening (not counting the car radio) on my computer sound system (a Logitech 5.1 set that was "the best "bang" for about $200 bucks about a decade ago at Micro Center) and the remaining 10% of serious listening on a hodge-podge of 1970s-1980s "mid-upper consumer grade" stereo gear. My Technics direct drive turntable is fairly straightforward and not over-much, but I am scrupulous about keeping it equipped with a good cartridge and fresh stylus.
one thing i never knew is when are you meant to change the stylus and cartridge, well i know that if the tip is broken you definitely need to change the stylus, but other than that, i have no clues. how often do you do it? 
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 13:38:10 »

An audiophile is someone who appreciates and actively listens to music


By that definition I have definitely been an audiophile for over half a century.

I have read that people feel that music sounds "best" on the type of gear and in the environment that they originally listened to it with great engagement and appreciation.

Today I do 90%+ of my listening (not counting the car radio) on my computer sound system (a Logitech 5.1 set that was "the best "bang" for about $200 bucks about a decade ago at Micro Center) and the remaining 10% of serious listening on a hodge-podge of 1970s-1980s "mid-upper consumer grade" stereo gear. My Technics direct drive turntable is fairly straightforward and not over-much, but I am scrupulous about keeping it equipped with a good cartridge and fresh stylus.
one thing i never knew is when are you meant to change the stylus and cartridge, well i know that if the tip is broken you definitely need to change the stylus, but other than that, i have no clues. how often do you do it? 

the more messed up it is, the m0ar warm, m0ar HIFI. if you don't hear a bunch of cracks pop, hiss, that only means your amplification system is not HIGH RESOLVING enuff.  better upgrade, or the Hifi counsel will sanction your community credentials. 

Offline yui

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 14:06:28 »

the more messed up it is, the m0ar warm, m0ar HIFI. if you don't hear a bunch of cracks pop, hiss, that only means your amplification system is not HIGH RESOLVING enuff.  better upgrade, or the Hifi counsel will sanction your community credentials. 

i have plenty of pops on my old scratched up vinyls or when i lost the carbon brush and my new vinyls came covered in paper dust... new vinyls should not pop or any of that :) although vinyl is not actually that good sound quality anyway, tape or FLAC are technically better but who cares, i just love seeing the thing spin and the much larger covers, but while at it might as well getting it sounding as good as possible
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 14:34:21 »
They go from digital to vinyl these days, so, it's still better quality than the older vinyl most of the time. does it sound better, that's a taste thing.

I have trouble with vinyl because when you bring popularity / fad into it, it becomes more about collecting than actually listening.

they also make transparent cd players, so that'll probably come back at some point if you just want to see the disc.

Offline yui

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 14:44:51 »
i do have a cd player with a partially transparent top, but cd spins too fast :) if you want a trippy one look at Lary - Future Deutsche Welle (
) you can't do that with a cd :) (and yes i may have tracked and bought this vinyl for the animation rather than the music, sadly i only ever found one light bulb it works with and it has died since...)
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 14:49:27 »

i lost the carbon brush and my new vinyls came covered in paper dust

new vinyls should not pop or any of that


I wash really dirty records in the kitchen sink with a sponge and soapy water. It can make a dramatic improvement. I set them upright in the dish rack for 10-20 minutes to get the heavy water to run off, then wipe them lightly with a cotton or microfiber cloth and let them finish air-drying for at least an hour, preferably more. If you put them back into plastic sleeves with any water at all you risk mildew. And you should use plastic sleeves.

My experience is that about 10% of labels are printed with non-waterproof inks or dyes and will streak and fade, but not often too dramatically and usually it is the background and not the black ink printing the song names.

Back in the day there were a lot of smaller record companies that put out pretty low-grade stuff, for free jazz lovers in the late-1960s-early-1970s, ESP' Records in the US and BYG records in France were notoriously poorly pressed. The few modern heavy-grade records that I have bought in the last 25 years have been uniformly good.

And yes, I always give them a good brushing every time I play them.

Stylus wear can seem somewhat subjective. Back in the day almost every stylus brush came with a magnifying glass. A smoothly worn tip will not damage records too much but a chip or a crack on a diamond surface can scrape them up quickly. I would say a stylus should certainly be replaced at least every year or so if it gets a good deal of use, maybe a couple or a few years if you are careful with it and don't play it very often - to ensure protecting your records at least as much as for sound quality.
America is becoming a country that can no longer question itself, invest in the public good or imagine a future beyond the dreamscapes of the rich and ruling elite. Apocalyptic fears, uncertainties and anxieties feed a rising tsunami of violence that has become the organizing principle of governance, everyday life and society itself. American society is caught in the daily routines of lies, corruption and manufactured ignorance; one consequence is the withering of individual and social agency along with civic culture and the public imagination. American optimism has turned bleak. In the age of gangster capitalism, people lose their interconnections, community and sense of security. Isolation and anxiety gives way to mass depression and is ripe for expressions of rage and hatred. The guard rails of justice, compassion, the welfare state, politics, democratic values and the institutions that nourish them are under threat of disappearing. Apocalyptic terrors have moved from the realm of fiction into the social fabric of everyday life. - Henry Giroux 2023-03-05

Offline Pretendo

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 15 October 2022, 18:02:55 »

the more messed up it is, the m0ar warm, m0ar HIFI. if you don't hear a bunch of cracks pop, hiss, that only means your amplification system is not HIGH RESOLVING enuff.  better upgrade, or the Hifi counsel will sanction your community credentials. 

i have plenty of pops on my old scratched up vinyls or when i lost the carbon brush and my new vinyls came covered in paper dust... new vinyls should not pop or any of that :) although vinyl is not actually that good sound quality anyway, tape or FLAC are technically better but who cares, i just love seeing the thing spin and the much larger covers, but while at it might as well getting it sounding as good as possible

I agree with this sentiment, though I wouldn't say records have terrible sound quality, just that digital is better.

As long as you're not deluding yourself into thinking that vinyl records sound better than uncompressed digital formats as a rule, they're a fine format and can sound quite good in their own right on proper equipment.

The problem is when you get audiophile types who spent the rent money on a turntable setup and have to justify it. So they sit there and show you pretty pictures of smooth "analog" sine wave next to blocky "digital" sine wave, call it proof that their LPs are the superior sound format, then turn off their brain to any further discussion.

The problem is that those charts are a gross oversimplification of how a digital file is encoded (read: basically wrong.) The fact is that any halfway decent DAC will perfectly decode the wave form up to the specified sample rate and frequency, and in any CD or better quality format, that will mean better sound and a lower noise floor than records are physically capable of achieving.

Then there's distortions at the bottom and top end of the sound spectrum in vinyl (low frequencies have to be centered in the soundstage to keep the needle from jumping out of the groove and high frequencies have to be attenuated for sibilance), inner groove distortion as the wave forms get more compressed towards the center of the record, bad masters or pressings, physical damage to the record after the fact, dirty records, or poor playback equipment. Apologists will say "oh, you need to get so-and-so pressing because the re-release loses 68% of the high end sparkle due to faulty transistors in the lathe" or "here's your problem, you can't run an Audio Technica cart with a Technics branded turntable because the tonearm is a poor match, and your only hope is to either completely revamp your setup or buy this expensive fluid damper to control the harsh resonances of the tonearm."

And after awhile it's all jading. And you can start to give up on your records. Or...

...you can just acknowledge it's not a perfect format, and appreciate it for the marvel of engineering that it is. The fact that scraping a needle through dried dinosaur goop can sound any good at all is a great testament to human engineering.  You don't need to lie to yourself about it being better than digital to appreciate that.
IBM Model F-122 6110347 -- September 13th, 1984
IBM Model M 1391404 -- April 14th, 1988
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 16 October 2022, 11:04:57 »
I wash really dirty records in the kitchen sink with a sponge and soapy water. It can make a dramatic improvement. I set them upright in the dish rack for 10-20 minutes to get the heavy water to run off, then wipe them lightly with a cotton or microfiber cloth and let them finish air-drying for at least an hour, preferably more.


How greasy some family's cooking is also makes a huge difference.  vaporized grease gets on everything, and over time it's a thick sticky patina.

Offline yui

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 16 October 2022, 14:02:41 »

i lost the carbon brush and my new vinyls came covered in paper dust

new vinyls should not pop or any of that

Stylus wear can seem somewhat subjective. Back in the day almost every stylus brush came with a magnifying glass. A smoothly worn tip will not damage records too much but a chip or a crack on a diamond surface can scrape them up quickly. I would say a stylus should certainly be replaced at least every year or so if it gets a good deal of use, maybe a couple or a few years if you are careful with it and don't play it very often - to ensure protecting your records at least as much as for sound quality.
i guess i am in for a new stylus and cartridge i guess (Audio Technica stopped making stylus for my cartridge a few decades ago :)) i am pretty careful but i bought it used 12 years ago and i have had friends who had their 1st experience with vinyl on it, and sometimes may have dropped it next to the disc :)
thanks for the advice.
for cleaning i never went further than wiping with a damp soapy cloth, never had to go further on any discs i had, i guess my collection is not huge (about 15 discs) and most of them are new, so might have just been lucky.
and yeah when i said that vinyls were not that good sound quality i did not mean they were bad, but i was referring to their compression and low bandwidth at the inner grooves, things that (fast) tape or (lossless) digital do not suffer from. still searching for a good "cheap" tape deck, those have become rather rare as of late...
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 18 October 2022, 10:20:04 »
GDI, saw a video, super speaker designer guy tells people if you're close to a wall, put a sock in the rear port.

well Tp4 rolled the sock too tightly, and the subwoofer sucked it all the way in,  can't get it out. now have to take it apart.

Sigh.....................



Offline Pretendo

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 18 October 2022, 10:59:55 »
GDI, saw a video, super speaker designer guy tells people if you're close to a wall, put a sock in the rear port.

well Tp4 rolled the sock too tightly, and the subwoofer sucked it all the way in,  can't get it out. now have to take it apart.

Sigh.....................


Show Image


I can't imagine how loud your music must've been to have that happen...
IBM Model F-122 6110347 -- September 13th, 1984
IBM Model M 1391404 -- April 14th, 1988
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Offline mohawk1367

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 25 October 2022, 07:41:31 »
RN my audio setup at my home desk is Sennheiser HD560S + ifi ZenDac. It works for everything I need it to and I don't really plan on spending anymore unless I happen to win the lottery or something.

Offline Pretendo

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 27 October 2022, 10:45:42 »
I got pretty lucky and had pretty much completed my audio setup gear before the price of every hobby exploded. I'm running a Kenwood KA-801 amplifier into JBL L5 speakers. My turntable is a Technics SL-1200 MK2 paired with an AT VNM40ML stylus, and I'm using a Schiit Modi 3 as a DAC.  This has more-or-less been my setup for about 6 years. Aside from replacing the 30 year old capacitors in the L5s I have no plans for an upgrade.

It was probably a little bit unfair to dump on "audiophiles" as a whole, given that I really like listening to music and have a decent audio setup. There's absolutely merit to investing in decent audio equipment if you're into music, and you can get into high fidelity music on almost any budget.

The problem is that, like any hobby, there's an elitist element that exists past the 90% curve on the law of diminishing returns.  In the audio world, that curve starts to dig in around $5-7k when buying a brand new complete setup (speakers, amp/preamp, DAC, possibly a turntable.) When you go from spending $50 to $500 on an audio rig, there's a huge jump in performance. $500 to $5000 is still pretty big, and about the maximum any sane person would spend on a new amp and speaker combo. But the audio world goes so far beyond that. Once you're spending over five grand on a setup, there's honestly not much more that engineering can do to improve things for somebody listening to music in their home. That doesn't stop manufacturers from charging people more, and tacking on psuedo scientific jargon to justify the upsell.

It gets ugly becasue if somebody plunks down $15k on a set of speakers, they WILL hear a difference. It doesn't matter if there is one or not; they spent used car money on a set of speakers and admitting they made a mistake is admitting they wasted it all. This means that there's heavy debate between those who try to call out some of those psuedo-science claims and people who will never, ever change their opinion on their own equipment.

This psuedo-science seeps into reviews. You'll find write-ups calling the sound of an amp "floral", "bass like a warm cup of cocoa" or "wide open" because there's no real data to show a meaningful difference between it and something that costs a fifth of the price. They have to stray into emotion. It also leads to people buying $200 sets of speaker cables with their own jargonistic claims because, hey, you bought a $10k amp. You're not gonna connect it to your $15k speakers with ordinary lamp cord, are you? No, you need the best. Even if there's no real difference. $200 is nothing next to the price of your whole setup, so go for it!

I think this same undercurrent exists in the keyboard community too, but to a much lesser degree.  Mostly becasue the price ceiling on keyboards is so much lower than with audiophile equipment. Even plunking down for a beam spring is "only" going to cost you around $1000. And if you somehow bought a beam spring and hated it, it's way easier to back down from a $1000 mistake than a $25,000 mistake.
IBM Model F-122 6110347 -- September 13th, 1984
IBM Model M 1391404 -- April 14th, 1988
Rosewill RK-9000

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #36 on: Sat, 29 October 2022, 10:53:15 »
Super speaker guy's wife is divorcing him, Erin on youtube.

HiFi = Divorce ?

Offline yui

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 30 October 2022, 15:23:22 »
a Technics SL-1200 MK2
i think one of the most beautiful turntable i know of, if i ever find one for cheap i do not know if i could not add it to my ever growing collection :)
Aside from replacing the 30 year old capacitors in the L5s I have no plans for an upgrade.
there is good chance that those are still plenty good for 30 more years, i mean they are not exposed to "extreme" heat (60+C) as they are in a pc so should last a long while, it is more likely that the ones in your amp if it is not the top component may go first
It gets ugly because if somebody plunks down $15k on a set of speakers, they WILL hear a difference. It doesn't matter if there is one or not; they spent used car money on a set of speakers and admitting they made a mistake is admitting they wasted it all. This means that there's heavy debate between those who try to call out some of those pseudo-science claims and people who will never, ever change their opinion on their own equipment.
i think that this is the heart of the problem, and it gets ugly because some marketing peoples found out that you could exploit that to great effect, and great money, i do not think TP was trying to go against the community but against the marketers/scammers selling those things to peoples who does not know better, well it is how i read his post.
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 30 October 2022, 16:05:24 »
kef q150  or  jbl s530  or  elac unifi


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 31 October 2022, 06:58:51 »
or elac debut 2.0,  or polk xt20

Offline yui

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 31 October 2022, 16:28:53 »
i'd say go for the ones you find the best looking, or that you can find used cheaper, only if you have a very good ear should you be able to hear a difference, and even then one might sound better to you and worse to someone else, best would be to get to test them but even that is not perfect...
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 01 November 2022, 08:11:04 »
Agree

It get expensive, and it is worth it TO A CERTAIN POINT
After that Yes Diminishing Return

That is beyond the finances of most

I like head phone more than speaker because Less people can hear what I listen to : )
treeleaf64: https://discord.gg/dMSaFY6qVW

I lived by the window as he talked to himself
This silence of tongues it was building

Offline atarione

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 02 November 2022, 12:01:32 »
unless you are a rich lunatic...  for 99.5% of the population getting some nice but relatively cheap gear is going to provide a very enjoyable listening response...    I am quite partial to Vintage Stereo Equipment (see photo of my computer room)...  not counting the headphone stuff the vintage amps, receivers and speakers and various other components on my stereo shelf.. cost about $400 total (i did get some rather good deals especially on the Sony ES Stack getting the full stack for $75 in a rather insane deal and that gear is probably worth several thousand dollars if I decided to sell it for some reason. 

But even if you cant find used gear / don't done to deal with looking for it and servicing it ..etc.      You can buy a large number of pretty decent stereo integrated amplifiers for under $1000 (cambridge, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz.. ?? etc).         Also there are some great speakers for pretty reasonable prices new. Q Acoustics 3030i $550~  ||  Wharfedale - Denton 80th $600~  || ELAC Debut 2.0 B5.2 Bookshelf Speakers $310~    as a few examples.. a ton more from Klispch , Polk... Monitor Audio NHT...and so many others.

Depending on your needs / preferences / how big your room is ... you could have a very nice amp and speakers for under /near $1K quite easily...  of course you could also spend several hundred thousand dollars or more if you really wanted to.

Here is my own PC area (yes my cable management is kinda crap.. thank you for noticing.)

Offline SBJ

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 02 November 2022, 12:12:52 »
unless you are a rich lunatic...  for 99.5% of the population getting some nice but relatively cheap gear is going to provide a very enjoyable listening response...    I am quite partial to Vintage Stereo Equipment (see photo of my computer room)...  not counting the headphone stuff the vintage amps, receivers and speakers and various other components on my stereo shelf.. cost about $400 total (i did get some rather good deals especially on the Sony ES Stack getting the full stack for $75 in a rather insane deal and that gear is probably worth several thousand dollars if I decided to sell it for some reason. 

But even if you cant find used gear / don't done to deal with looking for it and servicing it ..etc.      You can buy a large number of pretty decent stereo integrated amplifiers for under $1000 (cambridge, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz.. ?? etc).         Also there are some great speakers for pretty reasonable prices new. Q Acoustics 3030i $550~  ||  Wharfedale - Denton 80th $600~  || ELAC Debut 2.0 B5.2 Bookshelf Speakers $310~    as a few examples.. a ton more from Klispch , Polk... Monitor Audio NHT...and so many others.

Depending on your needs / preferences / how big your room is ... you could have a very nice amp and speakers for under /near $1K quite easily...  of course you could also spend several hundred thousand dollars or more if you really wanted to.

Here is my own PC area (yes my cable management is kinda crap.. thank you for noticing.)
And a Carlsberg pilsner. :P Nice.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 02 November 2022, 15:48:19 »
rumors say the debut might go back on sale to $150 level, but then again, neodymium prices are really high so, who knows. though do these cheap speakers even use neodymium? prolly not

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 02 November 2022, 18:35:07 »

Here is my own PC area (yes my cable management is kinda crap.. thank you for noticing.)

I love your setup! I want to create a setup like that when I get my own place to live.
treeleaf64: https://discord.gg/dMSaFY6qVW

I lived by the window as he talked to himself
This silence of tongues it was building

Offline yui

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 03 November 2022, 04:52:09 »
rumors say the debut might go back on sale to $150 level, but then again, neodymium prices are really high so, who knows. though do these cheap speakers even use neodymium? prolly not
all high end old speakers uses ferrite magnet, not using neodymium means nothing, well on big speaker, on tiny speakers it does
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #47 on: Sun, 06 November 2022, 12:33:02 »
Earbud prices are insane.

Offline Pretendo

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 06 November 2022, 18:40:58 »
unless you are a rich lunatic...  for 99.5% of the population getting some nice but relatively cheap gear is going to provide a very enjoyable listening response...    I am quite partial to Vintage Stereo Equipment (see photo of my computer room)...  not counting the headphone stuff the vintage amps, receivers and speakers and various other components on my stereo shelf.. cost about $400 total (i did get some rather good deals especially on the Sony ES Stack getting the full stack for $75 in a rather insane deal and that gear is probably worth several thousand dollars if I decided to sell it for some reason. 

But even if you cant find used gear / don't done to deal with looking for it and servicing it ..etc.      You can buy a large number of pretty decent stereo integrated amplifiers for under $1000 (cambridge, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz.. ?? etc).         Also there are some great speakers for pretty reasonable prices new. Q Acoustics 3030i $550~  ||  Wharfedale - Denton 80th $600~  || ELAC Debut 2.0 B5.2 Bookshelf Speakers $310~    as a few examples.. a ton more from Klispch , Polk... Monitor Audio NHT...and so many others.

Depending on your needs / preferences / how big your room is ... you could have a very nice amp and speakers for under /near $1K quite easily...  of course you could also spend several hundred thousand dollars or more if you really wanted to.

Here is my own PC area (yes my cable management is kinda crap.. thank you for noticing.)

Very nice setup!  I love the vintage Pioneer receivers, and also appreciate the JBL L1/3/5/7 series. 

My cable management is also wretched:



Most of what I have was bought before prices started climbing. I'd never buy a Technics  SL-1200 MK2 at today's prices with so many other good options (other tables in the same line are better built and can be had for less than half the price), but in 2012 it was only about $200 for a used one. That's the pattern with most of my setup.

If I were looking for best value audio setup today, I'd be researching gear from 1995-2005 or so.
 It's not quite old enough to be nostalgic, but too old to be modern. That's the sweet spot for this kind of thing.  Find something that gets you a good sound and be content with it. Be happy with excellent and don't chase perfection unless you have millions in the bank.
« Last Edit: Sun, 06 November 2022, 18:54:23 by Pretendo »
IBM Model F-122 6110347 -- September 13th, 1984
IBM Model M 1391404 -- April 14th, 1988
Rosewill RK-9000

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: is aud1ophi1e stuff BS ?
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 08 November 2022, 17:25:35 »
Op-Amp rolling..   Bs or Legit ?