Need help picking new GFX card

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Argh, it looks like those 290X Radeons with reference cooling that someone unloaded six at a time aren't selling all that well yet. They're sitting at 33% of their typical NIB price yet. I expect them to go up a lot just before the end of each auction, but with three of them ending today and a bunch more waiting for the weekend, I'm pretty sure there are gonna be some relatively low prices there.

Then again, the reference cooler on the 290X just isn't enough, aftermarket cooling costs another $80 or so, and those guys aren't telling where the cards are coming from.

The cards in your search range are all "obsolete"

But , within this Sphere ,  we can still optimize for price to performance.  And the 960 falls short, because of the bus, AND because it is a 3rd string build in terms of component quality (vrms, chokes, capacitors)

Whereas, MOST 670s are top notch builds with solid components

That's why I skip some generations of nVidia and generally prefer ATI cards as far as the physical card itself goes, though I'm not a fan of their drivers. High-quality high-end nVidia cards of older make have always tended to attract me in some particular way. Perhaps ever since I got a used 5900XT (which still works in a Unix/COBOL workstation right now).

***

Okay, so the card is 285mm long. It will actually fit inside my old case just barely, and for the new case (still haven't chosen one yet) I'll need to pay some attention to the lengths. Now the question is, what do I do about the cooling etc.? WindForce blows down, not up, which means an intake fan in the floor of the case probably wouldn't be ideal. Also, a thick plank like that PCB + cooler of 285mm length effectively makes a partition wall that separates the VGA region from the rest of the case. So. Do I put a vertically aligned fan there, before the card (just to give some direction to the exhaust air from the card, push it out of the case) or do I use a side fan/ventilation holes in the wing of the case?

[tp4tissue]

Argh, it looks like those 290X Radeons with reference cooling that someone unloaded six at a time aren't selling all that well yet. They're sitting at 33% of their typical NIB price yet. I expect them to go up a lot just before the end of each auction, but with three of them ending today and a bunch more waiting for the weekend, I'm pretty sure there are gonna be some relatively low prices there.

Then again, the reference cooler on the 290X just isn't enough, aftermarket cooling costs another $80 or so, and those guys aren't telling where the cards are coming from.

The cards in your search range are all "obsolete"

But , within this Sphere ,  we can still optimize for price to performance.  And the 960 falls short, because of the bus, AND because it is a 3rd string build in terms of component quality (vrms, chokes, capacitors)

Whereas, MOST 670s are top notch builds with solid components

That's why I skip some generations of nVidia and generally prefer ATI cards as far as the physical card itself goes, though I'm not a fan of their drivers. High-quality high-end nVidia cards of older make have always tended to attract me in some particular way. Perhaps ever since I got a used 5900XT (which still works in a Unix/COBOL workstation right now).

***

Okay, so the card is 285mm long. It will actually fit inside my old case just barely, and for the new case (still haven't chosen one yet) I'll need to pay some attention to the lengths. Now the question is, what do I do about the cooling etc.? WindForce blows down, not up, which means an intake fan in the floor of the case probably wouldn't be ideal. Also, a thick plank like that PCB + cooler of 285mm length effectively makes a partition wall that separates the VGA region from the rest of the case. So. Do I put a vertically aligned fan there, before the card (just to give some direction to the exhaust air from the card, push it out of the case) or do I use a side fan/ventilation holes in the wing of the case?

The reference 290x cooling is enough, as long as you run it "open case" and "Loud" ..

hahahaha..

[Badwrench]

I would just run it and see how it goes.  As for airflow, one rule I always try to follow is to have at least one exhaust fan out the back or top of the case to help direct airflow through the case.   

[NewbieOneKenobi]

The reference 290x cooling is enough, as long as you run it "open case" and "Loud" ..

hahahaha..

I think 'open case' and 'loud' didn't work even with 4850 in my case (oh the pun). Same cooler, by the way, just probably not as beefy or technologically advanced as the blower on the 290X, but I'd need to take a closer look... No, I can't. It's all covered. But things being so, if there are any heatpipes in that heatsink, they necessarily need to fit in somewhere under that casing, meaning less dissipatation surface, meaning it's less cool, har har.

We're in such a pun-y mood right now, aren't we.

For the record, today they sold three of those: $231, $292, $229. That's a coupla dozen bucks' worth below the lowest Buy Now prices and about half of what a NIB piece costs in a shop.

[Oobly]

That "useless" 3rd generation delta color compression is what makes the 128 bus sufficient on the 960 and allows it to perform. Having more memory means LESS use of the bus, not more, so it helps in many ways.

The 960 has a TDP of 120W, 280X is 250W, 290X is 290W... No need for massive, loud cooler and serious airflow management.

Anyway, I guess there's none so blind as those who WILL not see.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Having more memory means LESS use of the bus, not more, so it helps in many ways.

I thought it was the other way round... as in wide bus + huge bandwidth = turnover rate enabling you to get away with fewer mem chips on the PCB.

The 960 has a TDP of 120W, 280X is 250W, 290X is 290W... No need for massive, loud cooler and serious airflow management.

Yeah, that's the very reason I was practically decided to get a very specific 960 (non-reference Palit), before I had my doubts again and wanted a bit more memory for 1080p and had second thoughts about the price. A NIB unit would've cost $300 here, even with 2GB mem. I already have a decent PSU (OCZ ZS 650W) and plenty of fans to mount in a new case (I bought a lot of them years ago), which I'll be buying anyway, so I thought I'd manage the heat of a 280X. It being the stronger card and much cheaper decided against the 960. If they'd cost the same price, who knows, I probably would've chosen the 960.

Anyway, I guess there's none so blind as those who WILL not see.
[/quote]

[tp4tissue]

used 670 goes for ~100-120  and used 680 goes for ~120-170, 

Those are the best cards for that price.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Not here, alas. $210 if you're really lucky.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Got another problem: After reading all those threads about P5Q-E-related problems, I've got my board to the point where it will save at least some settings and not reset them every boot. Still can't save any OC-related settings, no matter how small. Something will fail to boot within the six-phase supply routine, then the system will pick it up and prompt me with a 'Press F1' after resetting all settings.

By changing some settings such as FSB-RAM ratio, RAM frequency, voltages (RAM, CPU, PLL, NB), Load Line Calibration and CPU Spread Spectrum, I managed to get the CPU to post at 4.0GHz once before the F1 message appeared anyway, but I can't repeat that, I always get the F1 message first now.

What could I try?

(BIOS updated, battery new etc., setup is almost completely barebones anyway.)

[tp4tissue]

um.. is it doing that even at low overclocks?  like if you go to 3.7ghz..  does it still reset?

Put ram to very low speeds..  then test the 3.7 with a high cpu voltage

[NewbieOneKenobi]

um.. is it doing that even at low overclocks?  like if you go to 3.7ghz..  does it still reset?

Put ram to very low speeds..  then test the 3.7 with a high cpu voltage

Yeah, like going from 3,33 to 3,5 GHz with a voltage bump. I haven't tested it yet, but I'm pretty sure that setting 3,33 as 333 x 10 manually also would lead to a boot failure & CMOS reset.

I've even got a reset once for *only* switching off the onboard soundcard. (But nothing changes if I remove the discrete soundcard, I've already tried.)

I'll go ahead and try lower RAM speeds then, though I'm a bit worried about CPU FSB/DRAM spect ratio set on auto in that case (any preset ratio — between 200 and 400 MHz — tends to result in 800 Mhz as the lowest possible setting with raised FSB, for some reason).

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Mind helping me with the mobo now?

I've narrowed things down on the Intel side on my own. The used market isn't offering any bargains, and the prices of NIB Haswell, Bradwell, Refresh Bridge etc. and their respective mobos aren't going down much. This means I pretty much have to go Skylake, and I'm not really interested in any chipset other than Z170, due to OC restrictions and in any case not enough difference in the price to justify the purchase of the lower model. For my own reasons I don't want to get an MSI board, which leaves me with just a couple of models from Asus, Gigabyte and, perhaps, maybe, Asrock.

Incidentally, all of them have that PCI-E short slot above the GPU which I wanted. All of them also seem to have electrical protections and all that jazz, and some have extra durable components. So basically my long list above is no longer needed.

However, it's still a bit difficult for me to properly compare all the boards. The main differences seem to be:

– better or worse secondary VGA slot (PCIE 3.0 in any case, but modes vary)
– 2- vs 3-way Crossfire/SLI (doesn't matter much; I don't really expect to go 3-way)
– PCI 3.1 or only 3.0

But the price can vary significantly, even +50%.

Here are the models I'm considering:

Asus Z170-P, priced at PLN 489:
– only the primary VGA slot has x16 mode; secondary is x4
– overvoltage & overcurrent protection, some kind of filter for CPU power supply, RAM protection, LAN protection
– no USB 3.0
– supports a bit faster RAM than Z170-A but just one step

Asus Z170-A, priced at PLN 612
– same protections
– two equal VGA slots, but filling both drops mode from x16 to x8 anyway
– beefier LAN card with some protections and turbo mode, it's supposed to reduce CPU load
– just two USB 3.1 ports (A and C)
– OC optimizations with easy options (automated mutual scaling of voltages, frequencies etc., I guess)
– BIOS protections, CPU parameter recall
– LED diagnostics to tell you which device is causing problems

Asus Z170 PRO GAMING, priced at PLN 636
– two equal VGA slots, but filling both drops mode from x16 to x8 anyway; third at x4
– same beefy LAN card
– some kind of GBU boost feature
– similar protections but renamed
– LED diagnostics to tell you which device is causing problems
– otherwise kinda the same as the Z170-A, but I can't really identify which of the A'a options it's missing

Asrock Z170 Extreme 4
– 10-phase CPU power supply
– fastest RAM support
– has USB 3.1
– x16, x8/x8, x8/x8/x4 for 1, 2, 3 cards respectively
– platinum capacitors, gold-plated CPU-socket pins (I think), supposedly beefier heatsink (aluminium alloy whatever), gold-plated VGA slot
– high-density-glass-fabric PCB
– supports NVMe SSD as boot disks (dunno if the other boards do)
– apparently not as much electrical protection as the other boards

GIGABYTE GA-Z170-HD3P at PLN 487

– better RAM support than the similarly priced Asus, but still it's little difference
– it does have USB 3.1 (2x)
– some kind of 'ultra durable' feature, but it's clumsily explained and seems to be linked simply to the innate capabilities of Skylake processors
– beefed-up LAN
– gold-plated CPU pins
– will support ECC RAM but in non-ECC mode
– second VGA slot has reduced speed (x4)
– gold-plated CPU socket

GA-Z170X-GAMING 3 Z170 at PLN 621

– some kinda fancy USB 3.1 controller
– beefier 'Killer' LAN
– metal shielding for VGA
– seems to have more M.2 slots than ASUS (well, at least 2... for RAID too)
– gold-plated CPU socket
– same deal with ECC RAM
– 8x/8x if you install 2 VGAs

Asus seems to offer better electrical protection, though Gigabyte's cheaper model (not the gaming one) has USB 3.1. Therefore, I can't really tell if it's worth paying for the more expensive gaming-branded Asus or Gigabyte. I kinda don't feel like paying +30% for a slightly faster VGA slot, where I would first of all need to replace my PSU before adding a second card of the type I already have (and rather than buying a pair different ones, I'll probably be getting a single card when the time comes to upgrade).

So does the GA-Z170-HD3P look like a good choice?

I provided the PLN prices just for a sense of proportion. I won't be buying from abroad, so there's little need to convert (1 PLN is 0.27 USD or 0.24 EUR).

[Badwrench]

I would go with the hd3.  Gigabyte makes quality boards. 

[tp4tissue]

If your stores there has Z97 on sale like in the USA,  I would still go with Z97..

If not, then get something with 8 real digital power phases,  NONE of the other features matter, Absolutely NONE.

[Oobly]

I'd go with the Asrock, but you don't mention the price.. It's likely to be the most stable for OC.

[Snowdog993]

Mind helping me with the mobo now?

You didn't want to spend money on a graphics card, and now you don't want to spend money on a motherboard.

No.  I would only suggest something way out of your price range and something you can not possibly afford.

[tp4tissue]

I'd go with the Asrock, but you don't mention the price.. It's likely to be the most stable for OC.

You wouldn't go with the budget Asrock, unless you're not planning on any overclocking.. because the cheaper asrock boards have like 3 real phases for the CPU,  it uses doublers to supply the necessary current, but honestly,  you're just asking for trouble down the line if you overclock..

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Mind helping me with the mobo now?

You didn't want to spend money on a graphics card, and now you don't want to spend money on a motherboard.

No.  I would only suggest something way out of your price range and something you can not possibly afford.

As you can see I ended up forking out the cash when I figured it was worth it, and ended up buying an R9 280X, which may be behind AMD's newest generation and a rebranded 7970 but is still a perfectly valid mid-range 2015 card (almost bought a more expensive GTS 960 or R9 290X too).

It's the same with mobo and CPU. What I can afford is one thing, what I can justify (working in office software and mostly playing somewhat dated games) is a different issue. For example I can afford Skylake 6600K with a gaming mobo, but the question is should I, given my use of this PC and given the price-to-performance ratio of, let's say, buying a used i7 900-something or 2000-something and cheaper DDR3 memory.

Or, in other words, I can afford to spend the money per se but not to waste it or experiment with it. Clearer now?

What I can't afford is something like Asus Maximus VIII with Skylake i7 and 32GB of the fastest DDR4. That would be something I couldn't afford. (Technically I could, but it would be above my paygrade, and I would also be wasting that power for the first 2-3 years on software and games that can't make use of all of it.)

I'd go with the Asrock, but you don't mention the price.. It's likely to be the most stable for OC.

You wouldn't go with the budget Asrock, unless you're not planning on any overclocking.. because the cheaper asrock boards have like 3 real phases for the CPU,  it uses doublers to supply the necessary current, but honestly,  you're just asking for trouble down the line if you overclock..

What about Asus's or Gigabyte's power circuitry, thought? Any preference for either brand? I think Asus is supposed to have some filters/transformers/whatever in addition to typical OV/ESD protections. On the other hand, I've heard Gigabyte is better overall.

***

What do you guys think about just going with a used i7 950 or 200-something instead or even Z97/1150/Haswell? I'll be going with a box version of the OS, so I won't be restricted from changing the mobo in 2 years or something (when Haswells/Bradwells go cheap and/or Skylakes go cheaper).

I'm basically torn between distrusting modern tech (and not wanting to pay a premium price for novelty/marketing) and distrusting old tech (and not wanting to gimp myself).

[Snowdog993]

Mind helping me with the mobo now?

You didn't want to spend money on a graphics card, and now you don't want to spend money on a motherboard.

No.  I would only suggest something way out of your price range and something you can not possibly afford.

As you can see I ended up forking out the cash when I figured it was worth it, and ended up buying an R9 280X, which may be behind AMD's newest generation and a rebranded 7970 but is still a perfectly valid mid-range 2015 card.

It's the same with mobo and CPU. What I can afford is one thing, what I can justify (working in office software and mostly playing somewhat dated games) is a different issue. For example I can afford Skylake 6600K with a gaming mobo, but the question is should I, given my use of this PC and given the price-to-performance ratio of, let's say, buying a used i7 900-something or 2000-something and cheaper DDR3 memory.

Or, in other words, I can afford to spend the money per se but not to waste it or experiment with it. Clearer now?

What I can't afford is something like Asus Maximus VIII with Skylake i7 and 32GB of the fastest DDR4. That would be something I couldn't afford. (Technically I could, but it would be above my paygrade, and I would also be wasting that power for the first 2-3 years on software and games that can't make use of all of it.)

Then why don't you find an ASUS Sabertooth or Crosshair motherboard used?  I'm sure you can find a deal if you look around.  Don't compromise on the motherboard if you can help it.  Get a previous Gen.
I hope this helps you.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Mind helping me with the mobo now?

You didn't want to spend money on a graphics card, and now you don't want to spend money on a motherboard.

No.  I would only suggest something way out of your price range and something you can not possibly afford.

As you can see I ended up forking out the cash when I figured it was worth it, and ended up buying an R9 280X, which may be behind AMD's newest generation and a rebranded 7970 but is still a perfectly valid mid-range 2015 card.

It's the same with mobo and CPU. What I can afford is one thing, what I can justify (working in office software and mostly playing somewhat dated games) is a different issue. For example I can afford Skylake 6600K with a gaming mobo, but the question is should I, given my use of this PC and given the price-to-performance ratio of, let's say, buying a used i7 900-something or 2000-something and cheaper DDR3 memory.

Or, in other words, I can afford to spend the money per se but not to waste it or experiment with it. Clearer now?

What I can't afford is something like Asus Maximus VIII with Skylake i7 and 32GB of the fastest DDR4. That would be something I couldn't afford. (Technically I could, but it would be above my paygrade, and I would also be wasting that power for the first 2-3 years on software and games that can't make use of all of it.)

Then why don't you find an ASUS Sabertooth or Crosshair motherboard used?  I'm sure you can find a deal if you look around.  Don't compromise on the motherboard if you can help it.  Get a previous Gen.
I hope this helps you.

Thank you. I was thinking about socket 2011 too, but used motherboards were literally much more expensive than new Z170 gaming boards (plus the only ones that would allow me to keep my discrete soundcard had only 4 rather than 8 RAM slots), while used processors for 2011 weren't much less expensive than the higher-performing Skylake 6600. The really good i7 processors for that socket are actually twice more expensive than the Skylake here (in addition to even used mobos being more expensive than NIB Skylake mobos), and the cheap Xeons that fit in are slow performers according to benchmarks I checked out. I'm sure this strange price situation is a quirk of this little Central-European market and recent changes in forex rates or something. I'll check out Newegg, though, or a UK auction site, to see if there aren't cheaper options, though I'm not sure how much cheaper Newegg will be with added VAT and cross-continental shipping.

Because of forex changes, the real cheap option right now is second-generation i7s like 930-950, or perhaps even 2500/2600 (which are more expensive, but their corresponding mobos are cheaper).

[Oobly]

I'd go with the Asrock, but you don't mention the price.. It's likely to be the most stable for OC.

You wouldn't go with the budget Asrock, unless you're not planning on any overclocking.. because the cheaper asrock boards have like 3 real phases for the CPU,  it uses doublers to supply the necessary current, but honestly,  you're just asking for trouble down the line if you overclock..

Um what? The Extreme 4 is not a budget board and exceeds your "8 phases" requirement: http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/7295/asrock-z170-extreme4-intel-motherboard-review/index3.html



Anyway....

[tp4tissue]

I'd go with the Asrock, but you don't mention the price.. It's likely to be the most stable for OC.

You wouldn't go with the budget Asrock, unless you're not planning on any overclocking.. because the cheaper asrock boards have like 3 real phases for the CPU,  it uses doublers to supply the necessary current, but honestly,  you're just asking for trouble down the line if you overclock..

Um what? The Extreme 4 is not a budget board and exceeds your "8 phases" requirement: http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/7295/asrock-z170-extreme4-intel-motherboard-review/index3.html

Show Image

Anyway....

Show Image

They don't have the full digital VRMs,  they're still using hybrids to cut cost..

Seriously,  STOP buying Asrock.. STOP IT.. it's bad..

That same damn review says, quote,  Tweaktown: " The VRM is also very basic, but it does make the cut for high ambient temperature overclocks. "


Vrms are super important again on z170 because they moved the regulator off the die..

Asrock is still Skimp..

[Oobly]

I'd go with the Asrock, but you don't mention the price.. It's likely to be the most stable for OC.

You wouldn't go with the budget Asrock, unless you're not planning on any overclocking.. because the cheaper asrock boards have like 3 real phases for the CPU,  it uses doublers to supply the necessary current, but honestly,  you're just asking for trouble down the line if you overclock..

Um what? The Extreme 4 is not a budget board and exceeds your "8 phases" requirement: http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/7295/asrock-z170-extreme4-intel-motherboard-review/index3.html

Show Image

Anyway....

Show Image

They don't have the full digital VRMs,  they're still using hybrids to cut cost..

Seriously,  STOP buying Asrock.. STOP IT.. it's bad..

That same damn review says, quote,  Tweaktown: " The VRM is also very basic, but it does make the cut for high ambient temperature overclocks. "


Vrms are super important again on z170 because they moved the regulator off the die..

Asrock is still Skimp..

Okidoki. I'll let the TP lead the tech charge on MoBo selection as he has the knows.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Thanks, guys. Hope I can help you with some brainstorming some day in return.

I've decided to skip the DDR3 platform upon realizing that Skylake i3 processors are already out, available in some shops and should be more available later. This means no reason for me to look back at 1150/DDR3/Z97/whatever where I don't have any DDR3 to reuse. If I need an i3, I can get a Skylake i3 and go with DDR4 anyway. I've decided that the difference between a normal and K processor or 400 and 500, 500 and 600 is not worth losing time thinking about, if I could simply take a bit more overtime at work instead of spending the time meditating on details with only a little financial significance (and working will be healthier than overanalysing). So I guess that at this point I'm probably going to get a somewhat high-end mobo with a 6600K and probably a single compatible 8GB stick from the OVL list to start with.

Kinda still worrying about the case, but my list is narrowing down slowly but steadily. If I can't decide before the time comes to get all the parts together, I'll simply go with Zalman Z1 or something comparably cheap/with better stock fans for the time being and hand it down to my neighbour with 8 old PCs (including my own old rigs) when I make my final decision.

I've got more trouble with Windows, though. In short, I really dislike Microsoft's policy about privacy and automatic updates in Win10 (both of which can be made largely irrelevant, though, with some settings, I know). I like Win7 a lot, but it's too old to be reliable with all the new tech. And 8.1 and 10 are supposedly faster and certainly more compatible. The difference, apart from the nicer shell in Win10, is box prices, where perhaps I could actually buy the cheaper Win 8.1 box and still get the full free upgrade to Win 10 without having to pay 2x more for Win10 box. But I guess this is ultimately a straightforward issue to resolve. In any case, since the Skylake comes with an onboard graphics card, I can buy a full new computer qualified for OEM Windows from the vendor and just add my card. And replace whatever silly little placeholder PSU they'll have put in the box with my OCZ 650W.

So I guess I'll be taking some time to finalize this and posting pictures of a whole new rig some time soon.

[Oobly]

Hmmm... yeah, Win7 needs EHCI. I'm a Win7 x64 supporter, not a fan of 10 AT ALL and I don't like the 8.0 and up UI changes. But in this case I'd recommend 8.1 with a few tweaks.

GL with build. Looking forward to pics.

[tp4tissue]

Hmmm... yeah, Win7 needs EHCI. I'm a Win7 x64 supporter, not a fan of 10 AT ALL and I don't like the 8.0 and up UI changes. But in this case I'd recommend 8.1 with a few tweaks.

GL with build. Looking forward to pics.

We're just getting up there in Age Oobly,  at this point,  old people like us abhor -Change- 


Except those changes that grant us tax benefits and broader medical coverage.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Haha, no tax benefits for me. Unlike you guys, I also need to pay freaking 23% VAT on my stuff. Seriously, something's wrong with Europe.

In the meantime, I've just bought an Asus P5Q-E replacement just to see if it's my mobo gone awry or something else in the system. If the mobo works all right after the replacement I might sit on my new GFX card and SSD drive and OCed CPU and wait a bit more just to allow Intel to introduce i3s etc. and perhaps wait for AMD's zen to buy things more cheaply, due to the lack of imminent danger of my current PC crashing too hard on me just before a tight deadline or throwing me out of a ladder game or something. (Since I've already bought the GFX card and already need to buy the SSD and a new case.)

Meanwhile I've got myself two Crossfire bridges to work with in a new case, and should still have enough fans to play with.

In any case, there will certainly be something to take pictures of. If only a stubborn last stand by 775.

[crayzieap]

Always stay within your means and just buy the best GPU that you can afford and within your PC building budget.