Author Topic: $45,000 speaker cable  (Read 14002 times)

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Offline 1391406

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$45,000 speaker cable
« on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 11:28:46 »
And there's an "Add To Cart" button. Simple.

Siltech Speaker Cable

"Siltech’s goal has always been to get as close to the original audio recording or Blu-ray movie as possible. With the Royal Signature Series™ you delve deep into the musical soul while, at the same time, keep the audio and video signal clean and free from the noise that divides and distracts you from your music and images. In today’s digital age, this is vital. Building on a 28 year tradition of legendary predecessors like FTM3, FT12, SQ-88-Gold, LS-288-Gold and The Emperor, the most demanding audiophiles can rely on Siltech to supply cables of the very finest quality."
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 11:35:29 »
:eek:

Offline esoomenona

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 11:38:50 »
They're obviously composed of copper stripped from the hemocyanin of the rare Phantom Squid. Very high quality materials.

Anyway, you'd think for a price difference of $25,000, they could afford to use the correct picture, and not the picture taken lazily from the Empress Double Crown.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 12:36:32 »
I really don't care for hi-fi personally... but I would really like to meet a person who buys said cable.. what is that guy like..

Offline keymaster

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 12:46:41 »

I really don't care for hi-fi personally... but I would really like to meet a person who buys said cable.. what is that guy like..

stupidly rich

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 12:48:35 »
I really don't care for hi-fi personally... but I would really like to meet a person who buys said cable.. what is that guy like..

Said 'guy' would probably not even have anything to do with buying this since he has so much money, more than likely a 'consultant' or 'assistant' would do the purchasing and/or possibly pawn it off on someone else.

Offline RabRhee

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:05:29 »
Quite often they price things up at this mad price with the intention of using them at shows and conventions, then they sell them off part used at 40-60% and some guy thinks he's got a bargain. The most expensive Hi Fi I ever heard was around the $500k mark and their cables were about $4k per metre, there is a healthy second hand market for them.
Once you get past a certain point, the law of diminishing returns kicks in and its simply whether the customer prefers the sound, not whether its $20k more than the other set. Or a certain level of bragging where someone would prefer to pay stupid prices so they can tell people how much they were.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:11:12 »

I really don't care for hi-fi personally... but I would really like to meet a person who buys said cable.. what is that guy like..

stupidly rich

That's the first thing people think, but, most rich people arn't stupid, and most stupid people arn't rich...

There is a very clear negative correlation between lack-of-intelligence and wealth..


I've always wondered if these hi-fi companies are shell companies for laundering money..  this makes much more sense.. Just like most high price art auction houses. for the most part, they offer tax breaks for the middle-weight-rich.

For example upfront i buy a 300,000 painting,  when it comes tax time, deductions ftw, because i've sponsored "the arts".. even though the 300,000 transaction never truly took place, all I need is a receipt for it to claim deductions.   so i'd pay say 3000 for the painting and the receipt... and they print one out for 300,000...

this is how MOST of the large art houses operate..

all of the shows, and promotions, and the fancy parties, is just for show...

behind the scenes, it's mostly drug money, prostitution, human trafficking and slavery.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:14:33 »
Quite often they price things up at this mad price with the intention of using them at shows and conventions, then they sell them off part used at 40-60% and some guy thinks he's got a bargain. The most expensive Hi Fi I ever heard was around the $500k mark and their cables were about $4k per metre, there is a healthy second hand market for them.
Once you get past a certain point, the law of diminishing returns kicks in and its simply whether the customer prefers the sound, not whether its $20k more than the other set. Or a certain level of bragging where someone would prefer to pay stupid prices so they can tell people how much they were.

I honestly don't believe this rationale.. anyone who cares about hifi would do the research into what to buy not because of cost restrictions, but because they do indeed want the highest audio fidelity..

It is very unlikely that given the overwhelming amount of good science available out there, that a true hifi-er would be swindled so easily...

This leads me back to my money laundering operation... which to me seems most probable.. 

At least that's how i'd launder money.

Offline RabRhee

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:20:47 »
Quite often they price things up at this mad price with the intention of using them at shows and conventions, then they sell them off part used at 40-60% and some guy thinks he's got a bargain. The most expensive Hi Fi I ever heard was around the $500k mark and their cables were about $4k per metre, there is a healthy second hand market for them.
Once you get past a certain point, the law of diminishing returns kicks in and its simply whether the customer prefers the sound, not whether its $20k more than the other set. Or a certain level of bragging where someone would prefer to pay stupid prices so they can tell people how much they were.

I honestly don't believe this rationale.. anyone who cares about hifi would do the research into what to buy not because of cost restrictions, but because they do indeed want the highest audio fidelity..

It is very unlikely that given the overwhelming amount of good science available out there, that a true hifi-er would be swindled so easily...

This leads me back to my money laundering operation... which to me seems most probable.. 

At least that's how i'd launder money.

Once you get past a certain level, there is no highest audio fidelity, it becomes personal preference. Typically, serious hi fi freaks I know spent around the same on hi fi that they would a car. Sometimes up to about double the amount they spent on a car because hi fi lasts longer. Just as there are cars for all prices, and noone agrees what is the absolute best, so it is with hi fi. There are Japanese valve amps topping $250k or more each, and some people use 4 or 6 in a set if they choose. And still noone agrees that is the 'highest' it is just whatever someone likes and will pay for.

You can argue that money laundering could be the case of anything you could buy a version for $50 when there are $250k versions available, but that doesn't make it so. cars, cameras, even keyboards. 'I reckon Topre keyboards must be a front for money laundering because you can get a keyboard for $5'
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:27:30 »
High end audio cables make ZERO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE to the human ear. So many tests have been done on this, and the quality difference is so miniscule the human ear cannot detect the quality improvement. What you are paying for when you buy high end cables is the construction quality and the placebo effect that your overpriced cables actually make a difference. This cable in particular has been the butt of many an audiophiles jokes for years now, and is pretty much considered a troll.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:27:59 »
High end audio cables make ZERO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE to the human ear. So many tests have been done on this, and the quality difference is so miniscule the human ear cannot even detect the quality of improvement. What you are paying for when you buy high end cables is the construction quality and the placebo effect that your overpriced cables actually make a difference. This cable in particular has been the butt of many an audiophiles jokes for years now, and is pretty much considered a troll.
ok well I seem to have quoted myself, and no idea how to delete it, so I'll just say my point is so good that I had to say it twice.


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:31:10 »
Quite often they price things up at this mad price with the intention of using them at shows and conventions, then they sell them off part used at 40-60% and some guy thinks he's got a bargain. The most expensive Hi Fi I ever heard was around the $500k mark and their cables were about $4k per metre, there is a healthy second hand market for them.
Once you get past a certain point, the law of diminishing returns kicks in and its simply whether the customer prefers the sound, not whether its $20k more than the other set. Or a certain level of bragging where someone would prefer to pay stupid prices so they can tell people how much they were.

I honestly don't believe this rationale.. anyone who cares about hifi would do the research into what to buy not because of cost restrictions, but because they do indeed want the highest audio fidelity..

It is very unlikely that given the overwhelming amount of good science available out there, that a true hifi-er would be swindled so easily...

This leads me back to my money laundering operation... which to me seems most probable.. 

At least that's how i'd launder money.

Once you get past a certain level, there is no highest audio fidelity, it becomes personal preference. Typically, serious hi fi freaks I know spent around the same on hi fi that they would a car. Sometimes up to about double the amount they spent on a car because hi fi lasts longer. Just as there are cars for all prices, and noone agrees what is the absolute best, so it is with hi fi. There are Japanese valve amps topping $250k or more each, and some people use 4 or 6 in a set if they choose. And still noone agrees that is the 'highest' it is just whatever someone likes and will pay for.

You can argue that money laundering could be the case of anything you could buy a version for $50 when there are $250k versions available, but that doesn't make it so. cars, cameras, even keyboards. 'I reckon Topre keyboards must be a front for money laundering because you can get a keyboard for $5'

no, topre is too cheap.. $250 is only alot of money to children..

I'm talking about these $5000 cables, and $250,000 amps... because they don't need to claim high volume of sales to write huge tickets at the end of the year...

Lets say you want to launder money with $5 items... You would need lots of said items... and large amounts of anything will be easier to track...  you can't say you sold a billion fish cakes and not know where all of them ended up.. this is very hard to cover up. now since you don't actually want to sell any fish cakes, but just claim you've sold fish cakes,  fish cakes would be bad for money laundering...


This is not so with say laundering using $250,000 items...   to clean up 20 million dollars would only require 80 of these.. and you could easily lose track of 80 items...

Offline vun

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:31:20 »
Honestly, if I had the money I'd buy overpriced audio cables. Not as overpriced as this, but the bull****-cables often look and feel better to handle, so if I had more than enough money to piss away I'd pay a bit extra for something that would be more fun to physically work with.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:33:14 »
High end audio cables make ZERO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE to the human ear. So many tests have been done on this, and the quality difference is so miniscule the human ear cannot detect the quality improvement. What you are paying for when you buy high end cables is the construction quality and the placebo effect that your overpriced cables actually make a difference. This cable in particular has been the butt of many an audiophiles jokes for years now, and is pretty much considered a troll.

Yes, i know that, you know that, and we can assume a RICH audiophile would know that..

Now, clearly this product was not to be sold in high volume, and quite exclusive due to it's price tag... no reasonable rich person would buy such a thing..

it's a money laundering business i tell ya..  :D

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:34:16 »
Honestly, if I had the money I'd buy overpriced audio cables. Not as overpriced as this, but the bull****-cables often look and feel better to handle, so if I had more than enough money to piss away I'd pay a bit extra for something that would be more fun to physically work with.

if you think like this,, this is also probably why you'll never achieve said level of wealth... rich people are rich primarily because they do not waste money.

Offline i3oilermaker

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:37:51 »
if you think like this,, this is also probably why you'll never achieve said level of wealth... rich people are rich primarily because they do not waste money.

To be fair there are guys who get rich because they are smart, and then there are guys that get rich (or inherit money) out of good fortune or dumb luck.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:40:51 »
if you think like this,, this is also probably why you'll never achieve said level of wealth... rich people are rich primarily because they do not waste money.

To be fair there are guys who get rich because they are smart, and then there are guys that get rich (or inherit money) out of good fortune or dumb luck.

The whole dumb kids inheriting millions of dollars and squandering their fortune is movie fiction.. that doesn't happen much at all in real life.. even the worst neglecting parents buy their kids a decent enough education.. to prevent such event from ever occurring..

Offline RabRhee

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:46:18 »
High end audio cables make ZERO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE to the human ear. So many tests have been done on this, and the quality difference is so miniscule the human ear cannot detect the quality improvement. What you are paying for when you buy high end cables is the construction quality and the placebo effect that your overpriced cables actually make a difference. This cable in particular has been the butt of many an audiophiles jokes for years now, and is pretty much considered a troll.

I have heard this said for digital cables, and personally I agree with that.

Interconnect and speaker cables can certainly change the sound of a hi fi. Maybe the difference between $150 cables and this 45k set may be miniscule and a joke, but changing sets from $2 to $5 and $5 to $10, even luddites have noticed the changes, I have demonstrated it many times, so have all hi fi magazines. 'Which Magazine' famously said that because CD players use digital technology there is no point buying anything over a $100 one, but they have been laughed at more times than a few, especially by anyone who has heard a quality player.  I have certainly used two different interconnects on one CD player because one gives increased bass at the cost of treble over the other, the difference was pretty clear to anyone that heard it.

It may be common knowledge and in jokes that cables don't make a difference, but there's a bigger school that still think they do :) And from what I have personally heard, they do.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:53:19 »
High end audio cables make ZERO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE to the human ear. So many tests have been done on this, and the quality difference is so miniscule the human ear cannot detect the quality improvement. What you are paying for when you buy high end cables is the construction quality and the placebo effect that your overpriced cables actually make a difference. This cable in particular has been the butt of many an audiophiles jokes for years now, and is pretty much considered a troll.

I have heard this said for digital cables, and personally I agree with that.

Interconnect and speaker cables can certainly change the sound of a hi fi. Maybe the difference between $150 cables and this 45k set may be miniscule and a joke, but changing sets from $2 to $5 and $5 to $10, even luddites have noticed the changes, I have demonstrated it many times, so have all hi fi magazines. 'Which Magazine' famously said that because CD players use digital technology there is no point buying anything over a $100 one, but they have been laughed at more times than a few, especially by anyone who has heard a quality player.  I have certainly used two different interconnects on one CD player because one gives increased bass at the cost of treble over the other, the difference was pretty clear to anyone that heard it.

It may be common knowledge and in jokes that cables don't make a difference, but there's a bigger school that still think they do :) And from what I have personally heard, they do.

If you ever become a millionaire.. I got some magic beans for you.

Offline RabRhee

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 14:00:51 »
If you ever become a millionaire.. I got some magic beans for you.

I would be interested to see what told you they make no difference, because clearly you never did the checks yourself, or you were being sold two lots of the same crap thinking it was different. Still, there are plenty of people driving cheap cars that think they are the equal of the world's best, and ignorance is truly bliss. Enjoy your cheap cables, they still work well.

Until about 1980, everyone knew that the only part of a hi fi that matters is the speakers. After that point, everyone changed their mind and realised source components mattered. Everyone involved in hi fi would speak about allocating at least 5-10% of the overall cost for cabling, because while wiring up your hi fi with mains cable would work, you were sacrificing the quality. Now it seems, people think cables make no difference. I dare say in 10 years time, people will once again go to adding leather caps to their ears to improve the sound :)
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 14:04:35 »
If you ever become a millionaire.. I got some magic beans for you.

I would be interested to see what told you they make no difference, because clearly you never did the checks yourself, or you were being sold two lots of the same crap thinking it was different. Still, there are plenty of people driving cheap cars that think they are the equal of the world's best, and ignorance is truly bliss. Enjoy your cheap cables, they still work well.

Until about 1980, everyone knew that the only part of a hi fi that matters is the speakers. After that point, everyone changed their mind and realised source components mattered. Everyone involved in hi fi would speak about allocating at least 5-10% of the overall cost for cabling, because while wiring up your hi fi with mains cable would work, you were sacrificing the quality. Now it seems, people think cables make no difference. I dare say in 10 years time, people will once again go to adding leather caps to their ears to improve the sound :)

like I said..

you

me

magic beans..


Offline vun

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 14:04:45 »
If you ever become a millionaire.. I got some magic beans for you.

I would be interested to see what told you they make no difference, because clearly you never did the checks yourself, or you were being sold two lots of the same crap thinking it was different. Still, there are plenty of people driving cheap cars that think they are the equal of the world's best, and ignorance is truly bliss. Enjoy your cheap cables, they still work well.

Until about 1980, everyone knew that the only part of a hi fi that matters is the speakers. After that point, everyone changed their mind and realised source components mattered. Everyone involved in hi fi would speak about allocating at least 5-10% of the overall cost for cabling, because while wiring up your hi fi with mains cable would work, you were sacrificing the quality. Now it seems, people think cables make no difference. I dare say in 10 years time, people will once again go to adding leather caps to their ears to improve the sound :)

Three words for you;
Double blind test

So far no double blind test has found that there is a noticeable difference between dirt cheap cables and ridiculously expensive ones.
If you know you're switching from cheap cables to expensive ones your brain will expect the sound to be better, so when you turn it on it will tell you that it sounds better because that's what you were expecting.

Offline RabRhee

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 14:06:36 »

like I said..

you

me

magic beans..

Like I said. Ignorance. Bliss. Putting $1000 rims on a $50 chevvy wouldn't do much, so I can believe you saw no difference :)
« Last Edit: Thu, 13 June 2013, 14:08:10 by RabRhee »
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 14:07:03 »
If you ever become a millionaire.. I got some magic beans for you.

I would be interested to see what told you they make no difference, because clearly you never did the checks yourself, or you were being sold two lots of the same crap thinking it was different. Still, there are plenty of people driving cheap cars that think they are the equal of the world's best, and ignorance is truly bliss. Enjoy your cheap cables, they still work well.

Until about 1980, everyone knew that the only part of a hi fi that matters is the speakers. After that point, everyone changed their mind and realised source components mattered. Everyone involved in hi fi would speak about allocating at least 5-10% of the overall cost for cabling, because while wiring up your hi fi with mains cable would work, you were sacrificing the quality. Now it seems, people think cables make no difference. I dare say in 10 years time, people will once again go to adding leather caps to their ears to improve the sound :)

Three words for you;
Double blind test

So far no double blind test has found that there is a noticeable difference between dirt cheap cables and ridiculously expensive ones.
If you know you're switching from cheap cables to expensive ones your brain will expect the sound to be better, so when you turn it on it will tell you that it sounds better because that's what you were expecting.

I'm not sure if he's talking about those cables that are soo..... cheap that the terminations were foobar and crossed. if that's the difference between a $5 and a $10 cable ,, then I will retract my previous beans statement.

Offline RabRhee

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 14:16:49 »


I'm not sure if he's talking about those cables that are soo..... cheap that the terminations were foobar and crossed. if that's the difference between a $5 and a $10 cable ,, then I will retract my previous beans statement.


I will totally agree with you on expensive cables being very subjective (and stupid to buy), and I certainly wouldn't say more expensive=better. All I was saying is that there are noticeable differences, and where there are differences, there are preferences. Personally the most expensive cable I own was about $150, and I only have those because I got them for $40. And I did simple a-b tests and preferred the sound, or I wouldn't have bought them. I heard the metal-free cables when they were first out (all carbon) and they sounded bloody awful at $300 for a basic set. But still, they did make a difference.

But as far as vun's statement about noone ever doing a double blind test on them, I have read tests on wine, bread, milk, mineral water, the works, and all of those tests have said there is no difference. I have also seen them say they prefer one over the other. Again, preference is difference, can't have it both ways. There are many cable reviews out there, often by people with no bias.

heres some chat from hi fi people about it. Even if you discount anyone positive as gullible, there are a few of them. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?86298-Raise-your-hand-if-you-re-convinced-that-speaker-cables-make-no-difference-to-sound-q&s=67502be2c32cb2332cfdda8a39485cc1
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 14:23:17 »


I'm not sure if he's talking about those cables that are soo..... cheap that the terminations were foobar and crossed. if that's the difference between a $5 and a $10 cable ,, then I will retract my previous beans statement.


I will totally agree with you on expensive cables being very subjective (and stupid to buy), and I certainly wouldn't say more expensive=better. All I was saying is that there are noticeable differences, and where there are differences, there are preferences. Personally the most expensive cable I own was about $150, and I only have those because I got them for $40. And I did simple a-b tests and preferred the sound, or I wouldn't have bought them. I heard the metal-free cables when they were first out (all carbon) and they sounded bloody awful at $300 for a basic set. But still, they did make a difference.

But as far as vun's statement about noone ever doing a double blind test on them, I have read tests on wine, bread, milk, mineral water, the works, and all of those tests have said there is no difference. I have also seen them say they prefer one over the other. Again, preference is difference, can't have it both ways. There are many cable reviews out there, often by people with no bias.

heres some chat from hi fi people about it. Even if you discount anyone positive as gullible, there are a few of them. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?86298-Raise-your-hand-if-you-re-convinced-that-speaker-cables-make-no-difference-to-sound-q&s=67502be2c32cb2332cfdda8a39485cc1

Cables will make "A" difference in analogue situations, yes I agree..  it then comes down to, is that difference perceptible..

Double blind says NO...

it's possible that you are indeed super-human


If you buy the cables based on the assumption that you "may" have god-ears.... ssss... well...  i got some magic beans that may suit your golden tastebuds..

Offline RabRhee

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 14:33:33 »
Cables will make "A" difference in analogue situations, yes I agree..  it then comes down to, is that difference perceptible..

Double blind says NO...

it's possible that you are indeed super-human


If you buy the cables based on the assumption that you "may" have god-ears.... ssss... well...  i got some magic beans that may suit your golden tastebuds..

One hi fi reviewer of many years, said that the best upgrade you could get was your ears syringed every quarter. My ears are certainly far from 'highly tuned'. One thing said most often from people when I mention high end hi fi is something like 'oh, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference'. And after I play their favourite track on my hi fi, the most common phrase is 'Wow, I heard things on there I never heard before'. I never signed in for that miniscule variances crap that everyone seems to expect. If it came down to subtle changes so slight you could barely hear them, I wouldn't bother. One guy I knew spent 5 months trying every damn CD player around from $300 to $5000, and every time he brought it to compare it to mine. Once he found one he liked better, he bought it. (a $995 one). Still, as one guy writes on that link I posted, the higher the quality of the source components, the more discernable the changes in cable were. My CD transport and DAC cost me $2600 (yes, trade show version of a $9k set) and maybe thats why they show up more. I still enjoyed the $30 stereo I put in my $80 car :)

Much of it varies by what type of music you listen to, what shape your room is, and yes, how good your ears are. $100 stereos are great for many or most. One guy there also said that cables are mostly negative, in that all cables detract from the ideal. I would hope any double blind on cables would definitely use at least $10k per component setups so they can eliminate drag factor of everything else, or the components could just be screwing up what cheap cables would screw up and expensive ones wouldn't :)
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Offline vun

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 14:37:03 »
But as far as vun's statement about noone ever doing a double blind test on them, I have read tests on wine, bread, milk, mineral water, the works, and all of those tests have said there is no difference. I have also seen them say they prefer one over the other. Again, preference is difference, can't have it both ways. There are many cable reviews out there, often by people with no bias.
I didn't say that nobody did blind tests on them, there have been a few, but not a lot from the makers of the equipment for some weird reason(spoiler: it would reveal that they're selling you absolutely nothing).

I'm not saying people aren't allowed to choose what they prefer, but I'm in the NwAvGuy camp where I believe that people should have the facts of the matter clear to them and then make their decisions based upon that.
I don't care if someone say that they like X over Y as long as they don't falsely claim that X is better than Y when they have no proof of it and there is proof of the opposite being true. This is my main problem with audio cables; there is no real scientific evidence to support the claim that they sound better("I bought some and I think they sound better" is not real evidence), but there have been several tests that prove that they offer no difference.

Links to some articles on blind testing, found on NwAvGuy's blog:
Matrixhifi test
Dishonesty of sighted tests
Heavy reading on subjectivity and science in audio
Even more reading and links on the subject from NwAvGuy

Offline RabRhee

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 14:46:06 »
But as far as vun's statement about noone ever doing a double blind test on them, I have read tests on wine, bread, milk, mineral water, the works, and all of those tests have said there is no difference. I have also seen them say they prefer one over the other. Again, preference is difference, can't have it both ways. There are many cable reviews out there, often by people with no bias.
I didn't say that nobody did blind tests on them, there have been a few, but not a lot from the makers of the equipment for some weird reason(spoiler: it would reveal that they're selling you absolutely nothing).

I'm not saying people aren't allowed to choose what they prefer, but I'm in the NwAvGuy camp where I believe that people should have the facts of the matter clear to them and then make their decisions based upon that.
I don't care if someone say that they like X over Y as long as they don't falsely claim that X is better than Y when they have no proof of it and there is proof of the opposite being true. This is my main problem with audio cables; there is no real scientific evidence to support the claim that they sound better("I bought some and I think they sound better" is not real evidence), but there have been several tests that prove that they offer no difference.

Links to some articles on blind testing, found on NwAvGuy's blog:
Matrixhifi test
Dishonesty of sighted tests
Heavy reading on subjectivity and science in audio
Even more reading and links on the subject from NwAvGuy

I think the problem is that its assumed that it is simply a case of improving things each step. In truth, it is much like any comparison, only subjective. I would say in all honesty, with hi fi components. anyone should be able to spot the difference between $100 and $200 items. And then the next step is probably $350 or $400 before you can really say 'thats generally better'. After that, its about $1000, and after that, its only preferences, no better or worse to speak of. Anyone can cite the ideal as 'theres this woman singing in front of me, when you reproduce that, its perfect'. but in fact, recordings are doctored and manipulated to give either a popular sound, or even a hi fi sound (one turntable maker despaired that people preferred the sound of hi fi to live music).

Because of the variances of peoples ears, their preferences of what type of music, etc, whether they like heavy bass or low bass or soggy flabby distorting bass (popular with car subwoofer fans), its preference. Not absolute better or worse. Or even purer/true or impure/unlike reality. The quality of the recording also made so much difference that in any show you would hear 90% of people playing the same albums, quite a few audiophiles say they can only listen to well produced albums, which I think is a great shame. But many prefer the sound of hi fi to the sound of music.

I once read a description of the perfect hi fi speaker. It went something like this: Speakers are affected by vibration. Because of this, it is best to have your speaker as unaffected by vibration as possible. The weight of a speaker also affects how much they vibrate. The perfect speaker would have no mass, no volume, and stand on nothing. The perfect speaker does not exist. If it did exist, it still wouldn't exist.

Basically, there is no perfect, only different. If you think Ferrari are better than Aston Martin you can prove it in 1000 ways. similarly, the Aston fans say the same. We can all generally agree that a Ferrari is probably better than a fiat tipo, but is it better than a Shelby Mustang? personal preference.
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Offline vun

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 15:16:55 »
Except you can make up for a lot of the preference stuff with an equalizer(and no, equalizing does not reduce quality in any way), no need to buy audio gear that limits you to one kind of music when you can get audio gear that measures well and then equalize until you get your preferred sound.

Offline tipo33

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 15:23:45 »
Still, I could find a lot better things to do with 44k USD.  After 1k on cables :p
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Offline Tym

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 15:26:47 »
Maybe very late to the party...but you know what I mean

unless they have some unforeseeable downside (like they're actually made of cream cheese cunningly disguised as ABS)


Offline RabRhee

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 15:45:12 »
Except you can make up for a lot of the preference stuff with an equalizer(and no, equalizing does not reduce quality in any way), no need to buy audio gear that limits you to one kind of music when you can get audio gear that measures well and then equalize until you get your preferred sound.

Again, saying equalizing doesn't reduce quality is opinion, one that much of European and Japanese hi fi disagreed with for years (American hi fi almost always loved them). Many preamps don't even have tone or balance controls for this reason, just a passive volume pot and source selector. Me, I have no opinion on them, as really every album produced goes through basically a high end version of an equaliser anyway, with settings set at a producers whim or what market trends dictate that week. You could argue that a computer program can reproduce Monet's art as well as Monet, it may even be true, but without the original to hand, you are still believing what you are being given translated, or what you prefer. I would say again that if the equaliser is the cheapest option to get what you want, use it. If you try a new CD player and prefer the sound, its quite possible that the equaliser can emulate it, but its also possible it won't. What works for you, works for you.

I like this NwAvGuy, he talks much sense, Although he places a lot of weight on people trying to please the tester or get the opinions 'right'. If you scrap that and just say what you personally prefer, with wine or hi fi, its as good as a review as anyone can give. If you prefer the $2 wine to the $200 wine, god damn sure you say you prefer it. He also speaks of things making changes but not necessarily more $$$ = better. Which is pretty much it.

As far as cables go, I can say that with my hi fi, in my room, with the people I had listening to my stuff, they could pretty much all notice changes between cables. But I will say that different albums, any different component could kill that dead. I am very likely to say if I tried 2 of my cables on another's hi fi, I wouldn't hear the difference, let alone them. For all I know all my components are lousy and produce imperfections that the cables actually managed to tune out, or they just resonated right with the albums I played. But sticking an electrical meter on the end of cables doesn't tell even a fraction of the story. If one setup playing one album, changing a cable can change the sound, then I believe an ABX blind test would pick it up. Whether its the $7000 cable or the $2, who knows. If its the $2 ones, im gonna use them. if its the $7500, im still probably gonna use the $2 ones. If the better sounding ones are $20 I will go for it. Which is what I did. Honesty with yourself while testing is quite hard for people, apparently, but it is the only way to truly find something that you truly prefer. The longer the test, the better.

When CD players came out, it was determined by many many tests that 16 bits of data storage would allow for the smallest sound changes any human could pick up. Then pioneer created a system to increase the data to 17 or 18 bits, and for the extra bits they 'randomised' what those bits would be. The result is that people felt it sounded warmer, less glassy, less artificial. Not universally, but enough to sell a lot of Legato Link CD players. Perhaps what oscilloscopes and meters discerned people couldn't distinguish didn't agree with what the ear and body could distinguish. Go compare a couple and see maybe :)

Incidentally, on one A/B test, things in the rooms on shelves actually vibrated with one and not the other. Who needs ears when the furniture can spot the difference? :) but no, that wasn't a cable change.
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Offline vun

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 16:31:50 »
snip

NwAvGuy isn't trying to tell you what you should like, he is simply trying to prevent the spreading of misinformation. He's not saying you shouldn't get $200 wine if that's what you like, he's simply saying that the $200 wine isn't always $150 better than a $50 wine and that it helps being aware of the scientific facts of what you're doing before you start preaching it to others. It doesn't matter if you have no clue and just buy whatever the hell you like, the problem arises when people tell others that they absolutely need $5000 cable to get the most out of their new gear without there being any real evidence supporting this.

Imagine coming into the keyboard scene being told that you need to get a HHKB, fill the number row with $250 clacks and get a $300 aluminium case for the HHKB or gtfo because you need that to get a proper typing experience. Anything less isn't worth discussing. It makes people spend far more on audio equipment than they really need to because everyone's telling them that it's totally worth it and makes a world of difference, when even something like the Behringer tested in the Matrix hi-fi test will be plenty good as entry-level gear for someone just starting with hi-fi.

And you can't always trust the manufacturers either, there was the Schiit headphone amps that could potentially break expensive headphones when you turned them off, and it took quite a bit of complaining to get Schiit to admit that maybe their measurements wasn't 100% correct.
Then there was the NuForce uDac which they apparently didn't measure at all, so pretty much all the measurements they initially stated on their website were wrong.

In the end the message is; get whatever you want if that's what makes you happy, just make sure that whatever information you pass on to others is correct.

Also, copypasted from the tech section of this article:
"Reverse EQ – Many people seem to think even high quality digital (DSP) EQ does irreparable harm to music. Ethan has an example where he applies EQ, then applies the exact opposite of the EQ, and then nulls (see above) the result with the original version (no EQ). He gets a near perfect null indicating even with two passes through the EQ DSP no audible damage was done."

The example referred to is this.

Offline keymaster

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 16:37:33 »

I really don't care for hi-fi personally... but I would really like to meet a person who buys said cable.. what is that guy like..

stupidly rich

That's the first thing people think, but, most rich people arn't stupid, and most stupid people arn't rich...

There is a very clear negative correlation between lack-of-intelligence and wealth..

You don't have to be of high intelligence to inherit wealth or to spend it. :)

Unless you're so stupid and shameful that your grandfather donates 97% of the family wealth to charity.


Offline RabRhee

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 17:54:40 »
Also, copypasted from the tech section of this article:
"Reverse EQ – Many people seem to think even high quality digital (DSP) EQ does irreparable harm to music. Ethan has an example where he applies EQ, then applies the exact opposite of the EQ, and then nulls (see above) the result with the original version (no EQ). He gets a near perfect null indicating even with two passes through the EQ DSP no audible damage was done."

The example referred to is this.

Like I say, I have no real opinion about the use of equalisers, as the article says, music has had a stack of it already added. At an individual track level, something an equaliser can't do with mere 2 track end user stuff. I would question whether all EQ is neutral, plus connections can make for variances even if the EQ itself doesn't have them. More connections was part of the argument against it I think. I heard a while ago that solder joints make for more reduction in quality than a 10 metre length of good cable. Also there are tales (probably false) that say bass travels down the centre of cores and bunches of strands, and treble down the outside edges of individual strands and bunches. Meaning that a thick solder joint could be affecting both bass and treble speeds or levels :).

I wouldn't trust what any manufacturer says, they are by their situation, the least impartial. Many hi fi reviewers are biased too, just in the same way any reviewer can be tempted to adjust their view. A car reviewer I knew said he loved it when a bad car was being released, one unveiling he went to was a Caribbean island 3 day getaway, with stacks of perks thrown in. By contrast the good quality German car release he did the week before was just show up, and a free glass of wine. This world we live in thrives with comparative subjective reviews, I am sure I could find an Amazon or Newegg review with 1 star and 5 stars. Fortunately with hi fi, you can usually get a loan of anything fairly expensive before you buy, maybe sometimes with a deposit. Then its up to you and your own honesty to yourself. You can't truly trust anyone's review when the results are subjective. Hifi isn't a does it/doesn't it work situation like many products are.

I will forever maintain that cables can change the sound, the ups and downs, the degree of that change and the costs charged are variable, and up to the brains and the wallet of the individual. I was reading the $1m James Randi challenge about comparing some $80 monster cable to a $7250 one, with no takers. That could seem conclusive, but I would suspect Randi knows that the two are probably uncannily similar, if not the same stuff. If you truly believe the HHKB with all the CCs is better, I am willing to listen but I would still want to hear logic and reasons, and test the combinations myself. Hell, I still remain unconvinced a Filco is worth $75 more than the crap keyboard with blues I have. But even if it is a lot better, at the time I couldn't justify the extra $75 anyway so the point is mostly moot. :)
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Offline demik

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 18:06:37 »
the bridge im selling is MUCH cheaper
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Offline tjcaustin

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 18:14:16 »
the bridge im selling is MUCH cheaper

It will go well with the waterfront property I'm trying to offload

Offline demik

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 18:16:02 »
discount if you buy both!
No, he’s not around. How that sound to ya? Jot it down.

Offline vun

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Re: $45,000 speaker cable
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 18:19:18 »
I will forever maintain that cables can change the sound, the ups and downs, the degree of that change and the costs charged are variable, and up to the brains and the wallet of the individual. I was reading the $1m James Randi challenge about comparing some $80 monster cable to a $7250 one, with no takers. That could seem conclusive, but I would suspect Randi knows that the two are probably uncannily similar, if not the same stuff. If you truly believe the HHKB with all the CCs is better, I am willing to listen but I would still want to hear logic and reasons, and test the combinations myself. Hell, I still remain unconvinced a Filco is worth $75 more than the crap keyboard with blues I have. But even if it is a lot better, at the time I couldn't justify the extra $75 anyway so the point is mostly moot. :)

The keyboard analogy was just an example, it is, like the audio world, a lot down to preference. What I wanted to prove with the example is that you can't prove that a HHKB with clacks is a better experience than any other keyboard, even if loads of people want both a HHKB and a clack. However, what you probably can prove with the HHKB is that it's noticeably different in use than for instance a Filco.

So far no proper test has been able to prove that there is a noticeable difference when changing cables, the only tests where this has been the result have been sighted tests, often arranged by the manufacturer or vendors of the products. I have to give props to Harman here for actually performing proper blind tests and comparing them to sighted ones(testing speakers, rather than cables, though) and showing that sighted tests skew results and that you do not need people who are "qualified listeners" to perform proper tests. Considering that Harman would most likely benefit far more had the results been the opposite of what they turned out to be I'd say that speaks volumes.


So yeah, I respect your opinion that cables change sound and I have no issues with you believing that as long as you do not try to convince others of the same without proper evidence.
What people do as their hobby and how they choose to spend their time and money is their own business entirely until they start doing things that have an impact on others, such as spreading misinformation.