Author Topic: The Living 3D Printing Thread  (Read 132678 times)

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Offline Krogenar

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #350 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 10:43:54 »
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #351 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 16:13:09 »
So I just about have my printer rebuilt... Less wood, belt tensioners, magnetic arms and auto leveling (should be running tonight).
Interestingly, getting rid of the wood sides for some metal tubing actually cut down on the noise by about half! It was shocking to hear the difference. Between those and using good bearings and slides, mine isn't even a quarter as loud as the ones I've seen on Youtube. So if anyone has or wants to build a Rostock, get good bearings and slides, and figure out how to eliminate the wood sides. It will look and run better, and will be much quieter.

The magnetic arms are, while have yet to actually print with them, a disappointment and I'm seeing why a lot of designers are staying away from them. Don't get me wrong, there is zero slop, and it's a proven system. My issues stem from the fact that it makes the assembly much heavier, heavy enough that if the effector (head) is off center, it will slowly droop to center when power is off. This tells me I added considerable weight as it used to stay well put, which is against the idea behind the delta printer in the first place. The other issue I have is you can't just simply grab the effector and move it out of your way without risking it coming detached, I've had it happen a few times. They are also a PAIN IN THE NECK to build. While the second is only a personal issue, the latter is why no one is designing deltas with magnetic arms as they are quite fickle to get right, with luck, someone will start mass producing them or something, though I'm not sure I will stick with them even if they work due to the weight, which could mean slower, though more accurate parts. I think I can get the same accuracy through lighter, cheaper, more secure methods.



Using what all I have learned from my current one, I've re-engineered 90% of it already, I'm drafting plans for a replacement.
The new machine (which will use no wood) should have a 300mm diameter x 450mm tall build area, this will let me (just barely) build a GH60 case flat on the bottom, and a full size TK case on end.
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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #352 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 16:54:08 »
this will let me (just barely) build a GH60 case flat on the bottom, and a full size TK case on end.

Could you explain how you will print the tkl vertically? Just curious how your machine manages sudden horizontal surfaces without anything underneath.

Offline Tym

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #353 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 16:59:46 »
Question: I have had alot of stuff printed with nylon, but a new company im trying to work with is offering ABS is that the same, different? Stronger etc?

Ive honestly no idea, thank y'all
unless they have some unforeseeable downside (like they're actually made of cream cheese cunningly disguised as ABS)


Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #354 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 17:31:24 »
this will let me (just barely) build a GH60 case flat on the bottom, and a full size TK case on end.

Could you explain how you will print the tkl vertically? Just curious how your machine manages sudden horizontal surfaces without anything underneath.

Depends on how far out you have to go and how your fans are set.
Here is an article on bridging.
http://www.3dgeni.us/a-bridge-too-far/
While you could say that's supported at each end, you have to jump that gap before it connects. Obviously you can go further with something at the other end, otherwise it droops, but you can go out horizontal more than you would imagine. I've managed 3/8in without anything on the other end. It needed some cleanup, but it worked. Usually anything over 1/8in and I try to make some sort of support that will snap off clean after it's done. Once I get a working case, I was planning on doing as many as possible as pairs, so they support each other when done vertically rather than use support material. That or make the upper and lower case together to support each other, depending on design.

Here is a video of bridging, showing what I mean about it cooling as it leaves the nozzle and how it traverses horizontal.

Question: I have had alot of stuff printed with nylon, but a new company im trying to work with is offering ABS is that the same, different? Stronger etc?

Ive honestly no idea, thank y'all
Nylon is far more flexible and less brittle than ABS. ABS comes in more colors.  Your keyboard case is ABS as are most doubleshot keycaps. Nylon is most commonly used in rope.
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 August 2013, 17:34:39 by Leslieann »
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #355 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 20:11:01 »
in the realm of thermoplastics can currently be extruded, nylon is at the top of the temperature food chain. it has the highest glass transition and highest melting temp. this means that it has more temperature versatility for certain applications. for example, underhood applications are generally much better off with nylon (most nylons are approved for automotive underhood use, whereas most abses are not). however, nylon and abs aren't really very similar past the fact that they're both polymers. they're actually like wildly different polymers with wildly different material properties nad structures.

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #356 on: Thu, 08 August 2013, 03:30:27 »
That brings up a good point, if you print nylon, you have to be EXTREMELY careful unless you have an all metal hot end.

The melting point/printing temp of nylon is 240c, and the teflon liners on most hot ends begin giving off nasty fumes at 250.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #357 on: Thu, 08 August 2013, 09:55:10 »
ptfe melts at 260 (that is, MELTS, not enter glass transition), which is why you don't regularly want to be getting PTFE that hot and nylon is NOT for printing in these printers.

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #358 on: Thu, 08 August 2013, 16:13:22 »
ptfe melts at 260 (that is, MELTS, not enter glass transition), which is why you don't regularly want to be getting PTFE that hot and nylon is NOT for printing in these printers.
E3d and Trinity heads can handle it, there are a few other all metal ends as well, they were designed to be capable of it.
E3d currently has a 4 week lead time on pre-orders and Trinity is on hold (medical reasons and have yet to release a 1.75mm version).

You can do it on regular heads, you just need to be very careful and it's highly recommended that you have some really good ventilation.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #359 on: Thu, 08 August 2013, 16:27:03 »
you're probably talking about the lower temp taulman with the process temp of 245. there is another taulman nylon with a process temp of 260. please please please don't try to print that stuff with a head that has ptfe in it!

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #360 on: Thu, 08 August 2013, 17:29:03 »
you're probably talking about the lower temp taulman with the process temp of 245. there is another taulman nylon with a process temp of 260. please please please don't try to print that stuff with a head that has ptfe in it!
Yes, the 240-245c... (depends who gives the number)
Personally, I don't think I would try either one with a ptfe head, just not worth it.



By the way, mine is alive once again and already ran off one set of Vortex adapters.
Magnetic arms aren't as impressive as I expected, that could be due to the work I did on my ball ends previously to eliminate slop. However when the magnetics start doing infill... THE NOISE! OMG! Tons of chatter.

Oh, and I will never again own a 3d printer without belt tensioners. Sooo much easier to deal with.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #361 on: Thu, 08 August 2013, 19:25:37 »
you automatic belt tensioners now? or are they manual? automatic belt tensioners rock. so. hard.

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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #362 on: Fri, 09 August 2013, 03:38:22 »
As for as the materials: PTFE is not an option, but PEEK or FEP may work (with proper heads).
Here is some discussion about it: http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,65051,201484

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #363 on: Fri, 09 August 2013, 06:04:48 »
you automatic belt tensioners now? or are they manual? automatic belt tensioners rock. so. hard.
Not automatic, but I have been thinking about it.
The Rostock in standard form uses zip ties to just tie the belts up. You have to clip the zip tie to re adjust the belt any time it slips or stretches and on these the belts stretch quite a bit being as long as they are, how many you have, and how much mass the system can generate.


And so the magnetic arm saga comes to a crashing end.
So I got one print out of the magnetic ends (a set of green Vortex universal plate adapters), nice quality, though not a massive improvement. After that finished, I noticed my effector (head mount) was a bit tilted. It didn't effect the print, it just annoyed me as it looked sloppy, and being easy to remove I took it off and started looking for the cuplrit. One of the steel balls wasn't quite sitting right and as soon as I tried to mess with it, the ball pulled right off. Grrrr. Getting them to stick (using JB weld), and getting them all precise has been the bane of people trying these. I spent a lot of time getting everything right, including testing a few types of epoxy. They were holding when I finished, so I can only imagine that the system must have gotten torqued pretty good at some point during assembly.

I wasn't that happy with them anyhow. While they were nice when performing maintenance, and at speeds under 50mm per second, they were great, but the rest of the time they weren't worth the hassle or money it took to make them. Doing infill at 60mm+ made a racket, if I moved the head by hand, there was a good chance the thing would disconnect, and it was heavy enough to droop with the motors off (I figure it doubled the weight of the assembly). Meaning I had to take extra care when moving it, since the head parks at the top.

I can re-use a few bits, and I can copy the belt tensioners onto a rod end carriage without much trouble. I think I'll stick with my tie rods with bands to keep them tight for my new printer. It's more secure, lighter, and MUCH more quiet. It also handles a LOT more speed. I had this one printing nicely at 180mm per second the other night and doing well. A week ago I had it at 240mm per second, but my prototype extruder was having trouble keeping up.  All told, I had about $80 and 2 weeks of my spare time wrapped up in this, between the tensioners, carraiges, effector and rods, all of which I had to either build from scratch or completely redesign.

Sometimes it's the journey, not the destination (hmm, road trip sounds good!).
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #364 on: Wed, 14 August 2013, 19:16:38 »
where are these MX to alps adapters that i am supposed to be churning out?

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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #365 on: Wed, 14 August 2013, 19:19:38 »
where are these MX to alps adapters that i am supposed to be churning out?

Yeah for real! Prototypes or bust!

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #366 on: Wed, 14 August 2013, 19:22:10 »
or the spliney ergodox case?

my bot is so lonely :(

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #367 on: Thu, 15 August 2013, 14:35:47 »
HOLY CRAP THIS ERGODOX CASE IS HUGE

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Offline kmiller8

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #368 on: Thu, 15 August 2013, 22:38:13 »
mkawa I will print

y wont u update OP

mkawa pls

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #369 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 01:29:14 »
i need to confirm that you will print objects that aren't dongs km

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Offline Glod

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #370 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 00:18:03 »
how did the ergodox case go?

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #371 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 00:35:58 »
it's just too big for my bounding box. i've done some pieces like this at say a 45 degree angle, but the printer ends up spending 8 hours building scaffolding and then 7.5 hours in it turns out that one small detail piece (like the fastener holes on his design) breaks off due to a small error that would have to be designed out and the whole print is a bust.

if i had the source files with splines i could cut the design into printable pieces, but only the steps and stls are provided on the ergodox page. i've pinged dox to see if he has time to cut up the design himself (it's very much conducive to it) and beef up certain structural parts (since the price per cm3 of my prints are at least an order of magnitude less than shapeways), so we'll see. if anyone is in contact with him, feel free to mention that i'm trying to produce them in a limited bounding box and can actually provide parts under acrylic costs, but i need either source to cut up, or cuts made by him on his original solid part.

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #372 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 00:43:46 »
as for the mx alps adapters, i can draw them up myself, but just haven't had the time. if someone has a solidworks part in progress, that would be ideal. the big thing is that i want to try to add some tolerances to the part drawings, optimize for certain kinds of common errors that affect density and tensile strength, and then tune the gcode a little better to see if we can actually FFM these out of ABS or if there's just no way to get the flexural strength we need. if worse comes to worse, i have the capability of printing taulman 645 nylon now, which has much better yield strength than any abs formulation that is currently being accurately filamented.

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #373 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 06:16:35 »
it's just too big for my bounding box. i've done some pieces like this at say a 45 degree angle, but the printer ends up spending 8 hours building scaffolding and then 7.5 hours in it turns out that one small detail piece (like the fastener holes on his design) breaks off due to a small error that would have to be designed out and the whole print is a bust.
How big are they?
If they can fit into a 400mm diameter, I should have you covered shortly.   :thumb:
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #374 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 06:44:12 »
if i had the source files with splines i could cut the design into printable pieces, but only the steps and stls are provided on the ergodox page. i've pinged dox to see if he has time to cut up the design himself (it's very much conducive to it) and beef up certain structural parts (since the price per cm3 of my prints are at least an order of magnitude less than shapeways), so we'll see.

You do not need dox. You can cut stl files in openscad (and I guess in other CADs too). Just load them as an object in openscad (use import("abc.stl");) and then use intersection operator to select the pieces to print. Use union to beef the parts you want stronger. Export pieces to stl, slice, print and glue together.

Offline MOZ

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #375 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 07:24:48 »
it's just too big for my bounding box. i've done some pieces like this at say a 45 degree angle, but the printer ends up spending 8 hours building scaffolding and then 7.5 hours in it turns out that one small detail piece (like the fastener holes on his design) breaks off due to a small error that would have to be designed out and the whole print is a bust.
How big are they?
If they can fit into a 400mm diameter, I should have you covered shortly.   :thumb:


You'll be good in that diameter for the classic design.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #376 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 10:13:05 »
thinking of picking up the makerbot scanner so that people can sculpt and send then have molds printed. thoughts? obviously it depends on price point and whether they actually release it this week like they promised BUT i think they're targeting around 1k, which is barely within budget, and it would allow a great number of cool things to be done.

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #377 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 10:17:55 »
thinking of picking up the makerbot scanner so that people can sculpt and send then have molds printed. thoughts?

I don't understand what this does. You can scan a part and it makes the mold negatives?

where are these MX to alps adapters that i am supposed to be churning out?

Looked for 30 minutes one night trying to find the files. They don't seem to exist and kmiller8 won't give up his files so I guess we're gonna have to ask Mr. Interface or someone will have to model them.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #378 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 10:28:08 »
you scan a part using their camera + dual laser system and it provides you with an stl. you can extrapolate from that STL to make a solid or you can print it directly using their slicer. if you were extrapolate out the STL into a solid with splines you could do an inversion to make a mold in CAD software.

the adapters are just not that hard to model. i say someone take the hour that's needed and just draws them off of the datasheets in solidworks, annotating the model with the datasheet tolerances.

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #379 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 10:35:11 »
you scan a part using their camera + dual laser system and it provides you with an stl. you can extrapolate from that STL to make a solid or you can print it directly using their slicer. if you were extrapolate out the STL into a solid with splines you could do an inversion to make a mold in CAD software.

That's awesome. I'd love to see what comes out of that if you do get one of the scanners

the adapters are just not that hard to model. i say someone take the hour that's needed and just draws them off of the datasheets in solidworks, annotating the model with the datasheet tolerances.

If that's a ploy to get me to 3D model at home, it's not going to work :P
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #380 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 10:40:09 »
it's not a ploy. IT'S AN ORDER SON

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #381 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 10:42:22 »
SON, GET ME A COPY OF SIEMENS NX THEN.
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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #382 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 10:56:48 »
I could otherwise recommend sculpting in software directly. Zbrush and Blender both have some tools for it. They have made the process quite similar to sculpting irl.

I have also noticed that many seem to want things which already exist on their caps (darth vader, iron man, a hand etc). These you don't even have to model as you could find them and just copy paste and attach to a cap.


Edit: Do you need help slicing the ErgoDox mkawa? When you wanted the adapters to be made, did you mean a mold for them or the adapters themselves?
« Last Edit: Wed, 21 August 2013, 11:05:02 by damorgue »

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #383 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 11:07:07 »
1) yes, someone please slice the ergodox for me. i am the worst cad operator ever.

2) adapters themselves. we'll resort to molds if we absolutely cannot get the ultimate tensile strength we need by printing them directly. casting presents a boatload of issues (degassing etc).

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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #384 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 11:08:58 »
Double, single or no sloped case? Also, best way to slice it would probably be with a slight overlap.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #385 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 11:11:06 »
slice the single models into two pieces, it seems like the thumb positions are the easiest place to slice. just run a seam across there and subdivide into two models

if you could do both the sloped and no-slope i can print both and i suspect there will demand for both

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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #386 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 11:15:22 »
What did did you mean by through the thumb area? Diagonally?

This is what I thought you meant at first: http://i.imgur.com/PpA9wiR.png

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #387 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 11:24:14 »
that works, but you're right, if you did that you'd want overlap. yes, i was thinking diagonally. let me take a quick screenshot of what the model looks like w/rt to my print box

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #388 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 11:30:00 »


vertically it sticks up several cm above my z limit



horizontally, it is in the danger zone (YEAAAAAAAAAAAAA DANGER ZONE). but barely doesn't fit.

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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #389 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 11:47:17 »
Damn, so close

Could you draw a line where you think it would be best? Is there any particular slice which allows more to be printed at the same time? http://i.imgur.com/E3zco1V.png

Offline fydo

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #390 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 11:49:11 »
I could otherwise recommend sculpting in software directly. Zbrush and Blender both have some tools for it. They have made the process quite similar to sculpting irl.

I was actually just thinking of this the other day. Is there a "known good" model of a basic MX keycap that one could use as a starting point for such modeling? I don't want to have to worry about tight/loose fitting stems, etc.

Thanks in advance!
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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #391 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 11:54:12 »
I could otherwise recommend sculpting in software directly. Zbrush and Blender both have some tools for it. They have made the process quite similar to sculpting irl.

I was actually just thinking of this the other day. Is there a "known good" model of a basic MX keycap that one could use as a starting point for such modeling? I don't want to have to worry about tight/loose fitting stems, etc.

Thanks in advance!

I have a few rows modelled, but the stem fitting depends on the machine tolerances, surface roughness as well as material. If they are made in metal, they will flex less and will have to be looser than in plastic. If the surface is rough/smooth, then the stem will grip more/less as well. I have a test block which I could send to get printed first, after which you know more. It looks something like this: http://i.imgur.com/73pKJ.jpg

Edit: You may not  notice it in the image, but the size of the gaps vary slightly. One side it won't enter at all and on the other it is a bit loose.

I have got to finish the remaining profiles some day.


Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #392 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 16:04:18 »
anywhere around here would be nice. just printing a single case is the goal at this point.


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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #393 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 16:39:00 »
What adhesive will you use? Just wondering how large to make the cut. 0.5mm? Better to make to hold the parts in place, and fill up too large of a gap than to not make it large enough.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #394 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 17:18:29 »
with abs one can use any number of adhesive. ye olde cyanoacrylate works fine, so do most epoxies. the most effective adhesive tends to be abs slurry either fresh with maybe 25% acetone mixture still keeping it moist, or relatively dry, with very very acetone keeping it pliable. however, my thinking was that there is enough clearance under the board that a true mechanical connection can be constructed in a dovetail style and the adhesive inserted in the middle. this will also keep alignment consistent. this is why i pinged dox for the original solid files, so one doesn't have to do a lossy triangular transformation.. however, i think he's moved on from this design and is busy ;)

sorry, abs slurry is just abs degraded with acetone to make an abs-like resin, or at least a resin that is very attractive to full abs polymers.

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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #395 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 17:37:06 »
Try these for now: http://www.sendspace.com/filegroup/G51glpXUwVtIPPnGiSGYjQ

Edit: The hook acts as a bit of support for bridging when printing as well.
« Last Edit: Wed, 21 August 2013, 17:39:42 by damorgue »

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #396 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 18:15:15 »
printed is down today. as usual, there is some hardware i'm putting in and tinkering with before the next print. i'm also loading a custom conf'd compile of sailfish onto the machine asap due to some bugs i seem to be hitting in the MBI firmware (they are close cousins, so it's mostly to tweak some stuff i've talked to dan about and to get better instrumentation during the print)

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #397 on: Thu, 22 August 2013, 14:22:05 »
so... the makerbot digitizer came out. you guys have a scanner right damorgue? what's your feeling on this thing? it looks like it tries to do a ton of interpretation  SORRY INTERPOLATION from a camera image.

i happen to know enough about vision to know that that can be wildly unsuccessful

laser distance measurement = good. camera distance measurement = bad.
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 August 2013, 14:25:46 by mkawa »

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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #398 on: Thu, 22 August 2013, 15:04:38 »
I would agree that they are better, but for many applications the tolerances you get out of a camera can be sufficient. I actually scanned my mouse using my own home camera. I did some testing, and the more pictures you used the more the result narrowed down and approached a steady state which wasn't that far off the real deal. I would not scan an object which requires tight tolerances. Usually, those shapes are easier to describe, and can be measured and recreated with caliper instead. Organic surfaces are rarely that exact, but much harder to measure and model, hence the use of scanning and rather low demand on tolerances.

A quick issue I see with makerbot digitizer is that it only takes pictures at one height. Sure, it will rotate the object, but you won't get any pictures from above, or from below.

If you were to scan a cup, it wouldn't see the hole at the top very well, and the cup would be filled. I guess it looks at it slightly from above, so it would be able to determine that there is at least a shallow hole, but it could only determine it like an inch deep or so. This is a limitation of the lasers as well since they won't light into concave surfaces very well, assuming the camera only captures the light frequency they emit. That thing is built to scan a sphere, the less the object resembles a sphere, the more problems it will have.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #399 on: Thu, 22 August 2013, 15:08:53 »
ah, good point. you really want that scanning rig on a polar axis like most other true scanning rigs..

i guess the question is what could we use it for? it can only scan the outside OR inside of a keycap, so you have to do some modeling to get the full solid (like a cup), it seems like it's best for uncomplicated solids

but in that case you can actually use vision-based methods, heck, if it's destructive you can shine IR at it and put IR reflective material on it (or like the kinect, just heat it up) to get quite a bit of distance information

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