Author Topic: Verb Inversion Mistake in English  (Read 1309 times)

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Offline Kavik

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Verb Inversion Mistake in English
« on: Fri, 22 April 2022, 11:36:44 »
I'm not sure if this is recency bias on my part, but, in the past few years, I have noticed a shift in verb placement in noun clauses by many speakers. At first, I thought this may have originated from a confusion of whether the noun clause is a direct or indirect quote, but, in some sentences, that doesn't make sense unless it became pervasive for that reason and then spread. My other thought is that people are mistaking noun clauses that start with who, what, why, and how for questions when they are actually just functioning as subjects or objects of the main verb. In an interrogative sentence, the verb is inverted, but, in a noun clause, the declarative word order is still followed, i.e. the verb follows the subject ("How is he?" vs. "I told her how he is.").

A common example:
correct: "I asked him what the problem is."
incorrect: "I asked him what is the problem."
correct with direct quote: "I asked him, 'What is the problem?'"

This can't really be explained with a misunderstood direct quote if the main verb is not something like "ask" or "tell". Perhaps, this could be explained as two separate sentences, but the speakers in question usually do not put any kind of verbal cue to indicate such (i.e. a pause)
Correct: "I don't understand what the problem is."
In correct: "I don't understand what is the problem."
Correct as two sentences: "I don't understand. What is the problem?"

It also can't be explained by a mistaken direct quote if the same individual is both the indirect object of the main verb and the subject of or the possessor of something in the noun clause:
Correct: "I asked him what his problem is."
Incorrect: "I asked him what is his problem."
If it were a direct quote, it would require the second person possessive adjective: "I asked him, 'What is your problem?'"



An example that can't be attributed to a mistaken direct quote or punctuation comes from the video below:
"In this video, you're going to learn what is a hostile takeover, what is a poison pill, how successful are poison pills in preventing hostile takeovers, and what could happen from here."

With correct verb order, it reads, "In this video, you're going to learn what a hostile takeover is, what a poison pill is, how successful poison pills are in preventing hostile takeovers, and what could happen from here."



Other languages have different rules for verb inversion, so, for people whose first language is not English, mix-ups in word order happen. However, by and large, I notice native speakers of English doing this.

Have you noticed this? Do you have any hypotheses on its origins or whether this will become the predominate word order in the future? It sticks out like a sore thumb when I hear it. "Language evolves" is not a good answer because it ignores cause and mistakenly states that language becomes more complex over time when it usually becomes simplified over time (e.g. Latin -> French, Spanish, Italian), at least as far as I know.
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 April 2022, 11:42:45 by Kavik »
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Verb Inversion Mistake in English
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 22 April 2022, 12:54:17 »
I've found it's not been a huge issue as long as people understand one another.

It's natural that language eventually develop into some weird amalgam.

As for why evolve is a good answer, for example, the brain can learn to speak backwards.  There's no absolute setting.  The language processor has alot of general flexibility in the hardware. So, our current syntax is actually ram, not rom.


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Offline iri

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Re: Verb Inversion Mistake in English
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 22 April 2022, 18:12:21 »
correct: "I asked him what the problem is."
Bloody colonials.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Verb Inversion Mistake in English
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 23 April 2022, 04:26:04 »
In real life I have only noticed this from Eastern Europeans where as you say it's probably to do with how their first language handles it.  The (very interesting) youtube video linked is also by someone who may well have (or has parents who have) a different first language which could explain it, also it seems he's just copying his headline "presentation slides" for the intro and title so it could just be sloppy (they are correct as standalone sentences in the presentation)

From a young age people have been exposed to non primarily English speakers on TV and the internet at higher rates than previous generations and today's parents are young enough to have normalised the wrongness and not correct their children.  If all we had was the BBC insisting on using Queens English on all programs and all primary school Teachers were primarily English speakers I think it would be avoided.  Though is there such a thing as a class without at least one child whose parents are not native English speakers these days?

While I have nothing against people moving around the world the decline of everything distinctive about everywhere (there are surely English speakers ruining other languages too) is not a good thing to me.
« Last Edit: Sat, 23 April 2022, 06:03:48 by suicidal_orange »
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Offline iri

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Re: Verb Inversion Mistake in English
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 23 April 2022, 05:48:30 »
Though is there such a thing as a class with at least one child whose parents are not native English speakers these days?
Yes, any class in any non-English speaking country for example  :p or quite a few in the UK.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Verb Inversion Mistake in English
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 23 April 2022, 06:03:10 »
Though is there such a thing as a class with at least one child whose parents are not native English speakers these days?
Yes, any class in any non-English speaking country for example  :p or quite a few in the UK.
I think I missed a negative in there somewhere
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Offline iri

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Re: Verb Inversion Mistake in English
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 23 April 2022, 06:20:49 »
EDIT: bloody simple machines

Then the answer to your question is (likely) those green areas:

[ Specified attachment is not available ]
« Last Edit: Sat, 23 April 2022, 06:29:49 by iri »
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Verb Inversion Mistake in English
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 23 April 2022, 06:33:01 »
Unsure if I live in or just outside a big green patch but there is definitely foreign chatter amongst parents here.  Interesting that there are so many green areas seemingly at random.
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Offline invariance

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Re: Verb Inversion Mistake in English
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 23 April 2022, 09:42:28 »
When you see some of the correspondence that comes from school English teachers, this is minor.
The only BS I
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Verb Inversion Mistake in English
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 23 April 2022, 09:44:48 »
Has anyone ever published a Yoda grammar book?
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