Does finger strength actually increase with Heavier switches?

[tp4tissue]

Does the "workout" concept apply to finger strength as well?

[phetto]

If so, I will hunt down superblacks.

[Rafen]

I think that it does. Some who switches from rubber domes to mechanical keyboards bottoms out a lot not only because they are use to pressing the key down all the way but also that fact that there finger strength is higher because they are typing on boards that require more force. I could be wrong though since I'm not a doctor, just a computer nerd.

[jabar]

I imagine it does; similarly, playing piano builds finger strength.

[1839cc]

Would it not have to work that way, because physics?

[keymaster]

Time to cancel my gym membership.

[TheGreatAmphibianPling]

Would it not have to work that way, because physics?

I think biology would be the relevant science. And the amount of force to press a key on any board needed is trivial compared to most people's finger strength. I have a much stronger grip than average (I work out with kettlebells) but I still use cherry browns to reduce hand fatigue/soreness at the end of a long working week - low pressure switches are more about letting the hand be less tense than strength.

[Polymer]

Yeah I'm not sure it'll make your fingers stronger...but you might build up greater endurance to repetitive motion that requires a bit more force...Is that strength?  I dunno...does a marathon runner have a lot of strength in their legs compared to a short distance runner?  Not by most standards of measurement. 

[okooko]

Probably make your fingers tired faster.

Wouldn't be very pleasant I'd gather.

[NikoGasm]

It was an interesting thought, but I think I'll stick with my Reds and Browns. I've typed on a few other heavy switches before and it's not my thing. I got tired just from one match in CS:S.

[TotalChaos]

Does the "workout" concept apply to finger strength as well?

Of course it does.  Muscles are muscles.

[tp4tissue]

I think I'm ready to take my keyboarding to the "next level"

check this gizmo out, didn't know they made these, i saw one in an old kungfu movie.

http://www.amazon.com/Tiger-Claw-Eagle-Catcher/dp/B0037B74N0/ref=sr_1_5?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1359458079&sr=1-5&keywords=eagle+finger

[TotalChaos]

Just to be clear: I do not in any way advocate anyone to try to build up their finger muscles.  Due to the way the hand is constructed it is terribly dangerous and you can easily destroy your hand(s) in 1 single day if you do things wrong / overdo it.

If you want to build up your finger muscles then please dear god think about it a lot before hand (pun not intended).  Do not attempt it until you have studied the hand and tendon anatomy and understand how dangerous it is.   Understand what it is you are asking your body to do and understand why it is very easy to strip out your tendon sheath and wreck your hands.

[tp4tissue]

Just to be clear: I do not in any way advocate anyone to try to build up their finger muscles.  Due to the way the hand is constructed it is terribly dangerous and you can easily destroy your hand(s) in 1 single day if you do things wrong / overdo it.

If you want to build up your finger muscles then please dear god think about it a lot before hand (pun not intended).  Do not attempt it until you have studied the hand and tendon anatomy and understand how dangerous it is.   Understand what it is you are asking your body to do and understand why it is very easy to strip out your tendon sheath and wreck your hands.

thx for the warning

[cobraj]

There is a balance between building up muscle, and exercising so much that you end up with so many waste products in and around the muscle cells that they cause the muscle to degrade/not function properly (ie. lactic acid etc.). While it's really doubtful that you would use your flexor and extensor muscles in the hand this much, it would still cause wear and tear of the joints, and accelerate the process of osteoarthritis which is an inevitable fate for all of us

[tp4tissue]

There is a balance between building up muscle, and exercising so much that you end up with so many waste products in and around the muscle cells that they cause the muscle to degrade/not function properly (ie. lactic acid etc.). While it's really doubtful that you would use your flexor and extensor muscles in the hand this much, it would still cause wear and tear of the joints, and accelerate the process of osteoarthritis which is an inevitable fate for all of us

what do you mean waste products around muscles --> degrade??

Lactic acid always occurs when the exercise exceeds aerobic threshold and enters anaerobic.. this is almost EVERY workout, because the aerobic pathway is very short.

[davkol]

Ever heard of rock climbers?

Just to be clear: I do not in any way advocate anyone to try to build up their finger muscles.  Due to the way the hand is constructed it is terribly dangerous and you can easily destroy your hand(s) in 1 single day if you do things wrong / overdo it.

If you want to build up your finger muscles then please dear god think about it a lot before hand (pun not intended).  Do not attempt it until you have studied the hand and tendon anatomy and understand how dangerous it is.   Understand what it is you are asking your body to do and understand why it is very easy to strip out your tendon sheath and wreck your hands.

Hypochondriac.

[MattBuzzy]

A very interesting concept, I must admit after using blacks for multiple hours my pinkies do get slightly sore, I must see if over time this effect lessens or goes away. If it does one cold argue that it is due to the muscles being worked and becoming stronger.

[cobraj]

There is a balance between building up muscle, and exercising so much that you end up with so many waste products in and around the muscle cells that they cause the muscle to degrade/not function properly (ie. lactic acid etc.). While it's really doubtful that you would use your flexor and extensor muscles in the hand this much, it would still cause wear and tear of the joints, and accelerate the process of osteoarthritis which is an inevitable fate for all of us

what do you mean waste products around muscles --> degrade??

Lactic acid always occurs when the exercise exceeds aerobic threshold and enters anaerobic.. this is almost EVERY workout, because the aerobic pathway is very short.

Rhabdomyolysis is kind of what I was talking about. While it would occur in 0.000000000001% of people who use keyboards too much, it's what I was getting at haha.
I just used lactic acid as an example, because it is still a by-product of exercise which most people know about.

But the main things excessive use of the keyboard would cause is either carpal tunnel or osteoarthritis.

[TheGreatAmphibianPling]

Rhabdo from kb use is impossible: it occurs as a result of physical exertion only when the body runs out of fuel and has to cannibalize muscle to keep essential organs going. You just can not use a keyboard this hard! It's something to worry about while circuit training or endurance racing - events where the largest muscles of the body are using huge amounts of fuel and dehydration may occur.

[OnTheBrink]

It definitely does. I went from a low profile setup to browns and at first my fingers got tired. After a few days there was no more tiredness.

This reason actually has/had me debating Red vs. blacks since I do like the quickness Red can offer, having a stiffer response will avoid annoying typos and accidental "leaning" on keys.

[TheGreatAmphibianPling]

But the main things excessive use of the keyboard would cause is either carpal tunnel or osteoarthritis.

Carpal tunnel comes from typing with your wrists out of neutral position (google to see some diagrams etc.) It doesn't really relate to key stiffness.

[tp4tissue]

But the main things excessive use of the keyboard would cause is either carpal tunnel or osteoarthritis.

Carpal tunnel comes from typing with your wrists out of neutral position (google to see some diagrams etc.) It doesn't really relate to key stiffness.

well it COULD..

for example if the keys that your "pinky" handles are very stiff, You have to turn your wrist in order to press them down, and this is what people usually do, because their pinky is usually not strong enough on it's own to depress the keys.

[TheGreatAmphibianPling]

But the main things excessive use of the keyboard would cause is either carpal tunnel or osteoarthritis.

Carpal tunnel comes from typing with your wrists out of neutral position (google to see some diagrams etc.) It doesn't really relate to key stiffness.

well it COULD..

for example if the keys that your "pinky" handles are very stiff, You have to turn your wrist in order to press them down, and this is what people usually do, because their pinky is usually not strong enough on it's own to depress the keys.

Hmmm.. well, rotating the wrist wouldn't  be a problem, nor would flipping the hand down at the wrist (although this movement  should really come from the elbow - that's how people type on manual typewriters).

CT pinch comes when you raise your hands UP relative to neutral - the position people usually end up in if they try typing with their wrist on a rest. Or if you turn your right hand right compared to the centre line of the arm - or the left one left. (I think!)

[tp4tissue]

But the main things excessive use of the keyboard would cause is either carpal tunnel or osteoarthritis.

Carpal tunnel comes from typing with your wrists out of neutral position (google to see some diagrams etc.) It doesn't really relate to key stiffness.

well it COULD..

for example if the keys that your "pinky" handles are very stiff, You have to turn your wrist in order to press them down, and this is what people usually do, because their pinky is usually not strong enough on it's own to depress the keys.

Hmmm.. well, rotating the wrist wouldn't  be a problem, nor would flipping the hand down at the wrist (although this movement  should really come from the elbow - that's how people type on manual typewriters).

CT pinch comes when you raise your hands UP relative to neutral - the position people usually end up in if they try typing with their wrist on a rest. Or if you turn your right hand right compared to the centre line of the arm - or the left one left. (I think!)

I'm not talking about rotating wrist, I'm talking about "hands flat" side to side panning, this is VERY bad for your hand, i know this first hand from piano injuries.

[Phil21]

Ha.  interesting topic.

I will say, after many years I finally picked up a Model M again.  This was the original keyboard I learned to type on as a child.

My hands get tired.  I didn't really realize it until a couple days after constant daily use, but I can definitely feel some soreness now.  While I think I'll get used to the buckling springs again, I will say my fingers are far more "used to" MX blues and browns these days.

That said, I'd be willing to bet the "workout" factor is pretty much trivial.  And by trivial I mean I'm probably going to get buff as hell and get ALL the ladies now right?  Every woman wants a man with strong fingers   I finally know why Jessica Alba keeps wardialing my phone, perhaps I should pick it up one of these days!

Who knew keyboards had sex appeal!

[TheGreatAmphibianPling]

I'm not talking about rotating wrist, I'm talking about "hands flat" side to side panning

Sorry: I have no idea what that is. Unless you mean that "Or if you turn your right hand right compared to the centre line of the arm - or the left one left" possibility I already mentioned - which does make for CT, but which seems a really strange way to press a key, even with a pinky.

[TotalChaos]

But the main things excessive use of the keyboard would cause is either carpal tunnel or osteoarthritis.

Carpal tunnel comes from typing with your wrists out of neutral position (google to see some diagrams etc.) It doesn't really relate to key stiffness.

well it COULD..

for example if the keys that your "pinky" handles are very stiff, You have to turn your wrist in order to press them down, and this is what people usually do, because their pinky is usually not strong enough on it's own to depress the keys.

Hmmm.. well, rotating the wrist wouldn't  be a problem, nor would flipping the hand down at the wrist (although this movement  should really come from the elbow - that's how people type on manual typewriters).

CT pinch comes when you raise your hands UP relative to neutral - the position people usually end up in if they try typing with their wrist on a rest. Or if you turn your right hand right compared to the centre line of the arm - or the left one left. (I think!)

I'm not talking about rotating wrist, I'm talking about "hands flat" side to side panning, this is VERY bad for your hand, i know this first hand from piano injuries.

Hey TP this is interesting information!  For whatever reason I do this hands flat side pan motion every time I press the shift key with my pinky.  It is the only way I can press shift without causing immediate sharp pain.  Unless I train myself to move my whole hand down off of home row.

The thing is, shifting is my number 1 most painful operation on the keyboard.  I donno if it is because my Ulnar nerve is so messed up or if it is because of this small pan motion I make.   

In any case this problem is soooooooooooooooooooo easy for the keyboard industry to solve.  Just add 1 extra key under the space bar and label it SHIFT so ppl can shift with their thumbs.

But there are 20 different keyboard companies who are all frantically deleting keys off of keyboards, randomly changing the colors of keyboards and randomly changing the shapes of keys and calculating ways to make the USB connector break just after the warranty expires so they don't have time to do something that ppl actually want and need like adding 1 single key so ppl can shift with their thumbs.

[TotalChaos]

But the main things excessive use of the keyboard would cause is either carpal tunnel or osteoarthritis.

Carpal tunnel comes from typing with your wrists out of neutral position (google to see some diagrams etc.) It doesn't really relate to key stiffness.

Key stiffness is a contributing factor.
If your wrist is out of neutral position and you apply 80cn of force you do x amount of damage.   If you apply 800cn of force you 10x damage and you you appy 8000cn of force you do 100x of damage. (roughly speaking)

If your wrist is out of position and you apply 8cn of force then you do very little damage.  If you apply 0cn of force then you do approximately 0 damage.

[TotalChaos]

I'm not talking about rotating wrist, I'm talking about "hands flat" side to side panning

Sorry: I have no idea what that is. Unless you mean that "Or if you turn your right hand right compared to the centre line of the arm - or the left one left" possibility I already mentioned - which does make for CT, but which seems a really strange way to press a key, even with a pinky.

I have had to do that ever since I developed my horrible hand pain.  My nerves don't like being stretched, folded, spindled, touched or stimulated so I must accomodate.

Back when I was healthy I have no idea how I did it.  I assume I did it exactly like you are pressing your shift key now.

[TotalChaos]

There is a balance between building up muscle, and exercising so much that you end up with so many waste products in and around the muscle cells that they cause the muscle to degrade/not function properly (ie. lactic acid etc.). While it's really doubtful that you would use your flexor and extensor muscles in the hand this much, it would still cause wear and tear of the joints, and accelerate the process of osteoarthritis which is an inevitable fate for all of us

How solid is your information regarding osteoarthritis?

I have never been diagnosed with osteoarthritis in my hands but my poor old grampa, his fiingers were all disfigured by some kind of horrible arthritis.  He was age 80 or 82 at the time.  He died a couple of years later after gramma "accidentally" ran over him with the car.

I have not studied osteoarthritis so I donno much about it other than it hurts. 

[tp4tissue]

There is a balance between building up muscle, and exercising so much that you end up with so many waste products in and around the muscle cells that they cause the muscle to degrade/not function properly (ie. lactic acid etc.). While it's really doubtful that you would use your flexor and extensor muscles in the hand this much, it would still cause wear and tear of the joints, and accelerate the process of osteoarthritis which is an inevitable fate for all of us

How solid is your information regarding osteoarthritis?

I have never been diagnosed with osteoarthritis in my hands but my poor old grampa, his fiingers were all disfigured by some kind of horrible arthritis.  He was age 80 or 82 at the time.  He died a couple of years later after gramma "accidentally" ran over him with the car.

I have not studied osteoarthritis so I donno much about it other than it hurts. 

Seriously,    remind me not to get on your bad side. These things run in the family...  )

and for the "right shift key"   swap it with COLON..   and if your left hand shifting hurts as well, swap it with Caplock...

Use "scan code remapper for windows nt" it comes in a utility pack from microsoft, works on window 7

The custom layout below I've made is to get rid of wrist pain,  and removes alot of hand movements.

it is also 1 column wider.. which provides better shoulder comfort.

[Gupgup]

I can say that when I switched from a Rubber Dome (I used Rubber Domes for my whole life) to a Poker with Black Switches, I could physically tell my hands were tiring after only 5 minutes of use.

I do type a lot of emails and papers and such, but yes it was very easy to tell that they weren't use to such actuation force.

[Magna224]

I used to use ALPS and mx blacks and I have used ergo clears for a few months now as my dd. I find mx blacks fatiguing now so I think they do.

[TotalChaos]

There is a balance between building up muscle, and exercising so much that you end up with so many waste products in and around the muscle cells that they cause the muscle to degrade/not function properly (ie. lactic acid etc.). While it's really doubtful that you would use your flexor and extensor muscles in the hand this much, it would still cause wear and tear of the joints, and accelerate the process of osteoarthritis which is an inevitable fate for all of us

How solid is your information regarding osteoarthritis?

I have never been diagnosed with osteoarthritis in my hands but my poor old grampa, his fiingers were all disfigured by some kind of horrible arthritis.  He was age 80 or 82 at the time.  He died a couple of years later after gramma "accidentally" ran over him with the car.

I have not studied osteoarthritis so I donno much about it other than it hurts. 

Seriously,    remind me not to get on your bad side. These things run in the family...  )

and for the "right shift key"   swap it with COLON..   and if your left hand shifting hurts as well, swap it with Caplock...

Use "scan code remapper for windows nt" it comes in a utility pack from microsoft, works on window 7

The custom layout below I've made is to get rid of wrist pain,  and removes alot of hand movements.

it is also 1 column wider.. which provides better shoulder comfort.

Your idea is very similar to mine!
In my idea I was going to simply scoot everything over kinda like you did but then I would put my SHIFT key where the "H" key currently is.

Then I was going to force myself to relearn the shift key being in the middle.
The advantage of my idea is that then I am not using my pinky to shift.  The pinky key is way overused on qwerty keyboards.

The disadvantage of my idea is that its harder to learn and I can't shift without removing a hand away from home position.

If I use your idea then:
- Still using Pinky to shift.
+ Can type at full speed without removing fingers from home position while typing shifted chars.

I could implement both ideas!  And just move 1 key out to the numeric keypad.

Then I could at least try my shifting in the middle thing every once in a while to see how good or bad it is.   Maybe I could gradually work my way into it.



Is there a reason that you said to use "scan code remapper for windows nt" instead of that other proggy that everyone always says to use?  (I can't remember the name right now)

[cobraj]

There is a balance between building up muscle, and exercising so much that you end up with so many waste products in and around the muscle cells that they cause the muscle to degrade/not function properly (ie. lactic acid etc.). While it's really doubtful that you would use your flexor and extensor muscles in the hand this much, it would still cause wear and tear of the joints, and accelerate the process of osteoarthritis which is an inevitable fate for all of us

How solid is your information regarding osteoarthritis?

I have never been diagnosed with osteoarthritis in my hands but my poor old grampa, his fiingers were all disfigured by some kind of horrible arthritis.  He was age 80 or 82 at the time.  He died a couple of years later after gramma "accidentally" ran over him with the car.

I have not studied osteoarthritis so I donno much about it other than it hurts. 

Sorry to hear about your grandfather

But with regards to osteoarthritis, it is just the break down of cartilage and bone due to over use (really simple explanation; don't feel like writing an exam answer right now )
The body isn't invincible. If you keep using it enough, eventually it will break down. I don't think there have been studies with how keyboard use affects arthritis. As arthritis normally appears in the elderly, so you need a lot of use. And computers only really became prominent recently, so we will have to wait and see what happens in the general population.
So you will see professional sportsmen with it.
My grandmother has it because she just always uses her hands.

Also, most types of arthritis cause some types of deformity.
But generally, if the pain gets worse after use, its osteo. And if it gets better with use, its rheum.

[tp4tissue]

There is a balance between building up muscle, and exercising so much that you end up with so many waste products in and around the muscle cells that they cause the muscle to degrade/not function properly (ie. lactic acid etc.). While it's really doubtful that you would use your flexor and extensor muscles in the hand this much, it would still cause wear and tear of the joints, and accelerate the process of osteoarthritis which is an inevitable fate for all of us

How solid is your information regarding osteoarthritis?

I have never been diagnosed with osteoarthritis in my hands but my poor old grampa, his fiingers were all disfigured by some kind of horrible arthritis.  He was age 80 or 82 at the time.  He died a couple of years later after gramma "accidentally" ran over him with the car.

I have not studied osteoarthritis so I donno much about it other than it hurts. 

Seriously,    remind me not to get on your bad side. These things run in the family...  )

and for the "right shift key"   swap it with COLON..   and if your left hand shifting hurts as well, swap it with Caplock...

Use "scan code remapper for windows nt" it comes in a utility pack from microsoft, works on window 7

The custom layout below I've made is to get rid of wrist pain,  and removes alot of hand movements.

it is also 1 column wider.. which provides better shoulder comfort.

Your idea is very similar to mine!
In my idea I was going to simply scoot everything over kinda like you did but then I would put my SHIFT key where the "H" key currently is.

Then I was going to force myself to relearn the shift key being in the middle.
The advantage of my idea is that then I am not using my pinky to shift.  The pinky key is way overused on qwerty keyboards.

The disadvantage of my idea is that its harder to learn and I can't shift without removing a hand away from home position.

If I use your idea then:
- Still using Pinky to shift.
+ Can type at full speed without removing fingers from home position while typing shifted chars.

I could implement both ideas!  And just move 1 key out to the numeric keypad.

Then I could at least try my shifting in the middle thing every once in a while to see how good or bad it is.   Maybe I could gradually work my way into it.



Is there a reason that you said to use "scan code remapper for windows nt" instead of that other proggy that everyone always says to use?  (I can't remember the name right now)

I use this program because it changes the way windows interpret scan codes. no added latency. 

If you use Autohotkey, it adds latency, because it intercepts the inputs....

With my layout, you can type all capitals without any wrist movement...

notice my right shift is right under the pinky at base position, and left shift usually doesn't require wrist movement to begin with.

You don't have to split the keys like I did, you could just use the custom "r-shift" position.   It really makes shifting easy, and you for the muscle memory easily because it uses the same finger,

whereas if you move the right shift to the center, you'll have to relearn shifting with a new finger, AND you must move your hand to reach it.

[tp4tissue]

Got my eagle claw ... the training begins....

[egotrippin]

I bought a crappy "blade" style wireless Lenovo keyboard for work that matches the work computers and would allow me to work while reclined way far from the computer.  Although this keyboard looks nice enough it is HORRIBLE to type on.  I got cramps at first but now it's a little bit easier so I'd say my fingers are a bit "stronger" but it's not worth it.  So far I've just been too stubborn to replace it because that would be admitting defeat.   

[Saturn]

Just to be clear: I do not in any way advocate anyone to try to build up their finger muscles.  Due to the way the hand is constructed it is terribly dangerous and you can easily destroy your hand(s) in 1 single day if you do things wrong / overdo it.

Robert Schumann would agree.

Seriously, people, for the love of [insert preferred deity here], do not try to increase finger strength.  There are several different muscle sets that are responsible for finger movement, some of which are located in the hand, some of which are located in the forearm, none of which are located in the fingers.  And all of those muscles are strong enough to perform the entire range of hand and finger movements that you will need without ever performing finger strengthening exercises.  That is, unless you tend to do things with your fingers that fall far outside of human norms, such as Bruce Lee style one-finger push-ups.

[rowdy]

I am using my QFR/blacks as my primary keyboard at home now.  Checking emails in Thunderbird involves repeatedly pressing N and M to more to the next message and mark it as read.  I have noticed an increase in key pressure required over blues (well duh!), and it will be interesting to see whether this feeling reduces over time.  I.e. will my fingers become more used to this kind of activity and/or the springs in the blacks.