Author Topic: Lubed MX Browns?  (Read 5056 times)

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Offline goobus

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Lubed MX Browns?
« on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 14:38:52 »
So I hear talk of lubed ergoclears and blacks alot, but I realized that I actually haven't read much about lubed MX browns.  Browns are actually one of my favorite switch but I'm wondering whether I will like them more if I lubed/stickered them.  Anyone who has tried lubed browns and can comment?  How do they compare to lubed reds or ergo clears?/

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 14:58:57 »
because if you lube an mx browns.. you might as well just get reds..

Offline PointyFox

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 15:05:17 »
because if you lube an mx browns.. you might as well just get reds..

I think he's saying lubing makes them even less tactile.

Offline Linkbane

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 15:35:19 »
because if you lube an mx browns.. you might as well just get reds..

I think he's saying lubing makes them even less tactile.



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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 15:38:16 »
When I lubed MX Browns, I only put Victorinox oil into the circular central shafts where the switch stems are inserted and a practically nonexistent amount of Krytox mixture along the sides of the stems--not along the front where they touch the metal leaf, along the bump.  The result was smoother and quieter but the bump was not affected.

(Also lubricated their springs with Victorinox oil.)
« Last Edit: Sun, 27 October 2013, 15:41:24 by Photoelectric »
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Offline VesperSAINT

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 15:52:23 »
My QFR currently has lubed browns for the main cluster, while the rest is still lubed vintage blacks. Even though I do think that linear switches are best for games overall, I was getting slightly bored with my vintage blacks so I decided to add a lil' bit of tactility by adding lubed browns (ergo clears were fine for RPGs games and what not, but too tactile for FPS games). They don't compare to ergo clears or vintage blacks in terms of feelsgoodman level, but I think they are an awesome gaming switch.

They are what you'd expect them to be; they are in between ergo clears and reds in terms of feel. The tactility is present and quite noticeable but not enough that it'll interrupt your keystroke when spamming in between multiple keys. That said, you will obviously feel less tactility the harder you're spamming keys, but if you're playing something like FPS games, you'll definitely feel the small tactile bump, and probably less so with RTS and MOBA games. I have a tendency to press down more softly with FPS games. You'll definitely feel the tactility though when you're just typing, and this is where I much prefer ergo clears or just plain vintage blacks/reds. Like stock browns, I feel like the lubed browns are just an efficient switch but only decent in term of the feels, and because of this, it makes it less desirable for typing IMO; it's not soft and clean like lubed vintage black/reds, and it's not satisfyingly tactile like ergo clears. Kind of a Jack of all trades, master of none. I would change it back to lubed vintage blacks but I'm too lazy to right now :))

Also note that your feels will vary depending on how heavily you lube. I used Krytox mix for the side of the stem, and didn't lube the slider itself as there was already some present on the leaf of the switch from the previous lubed vintage blacks. I then used Victorinox for the hole in the bottom switch housing, some on springs, and bottom of stem to dampen sound.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 15:59:51 »
When I lubed MX Browns, I only put Victorinox oil into the circular central shafts where the switch stems are inserted and a practically nonexistent amount of Krytox mixture along the sides of the stems--not along the front where they touch the metal leaf, along the bump.  The result was smoother and quieter but the bump was not affected.

(Also lubricated their springs with Victorinox oil.)

Took apart a batch of 110x switch recently.

Observations:

Exterior: Dust primarily collect around the outer ridge of the switch where the two halves meet.

Interior: Dust primarily collect along the side-guide-rails on the bottom piece of the housing.

Interior: Some switches had small dust-bunnies stuck to the 2 legs on the slider

Interior: Some switches had dust bunnies stuck to the 2 prong leaf-spring..


None of these switches seem to have been Lube-modded, these are the salvaged blacks I purchased from WhiskyTango.

Now.. HAD THEY BEEN lube-modded...

The side-slider-guides would absolutely "Gum-up"..  It would also be very impractical to clean because there are many tiny sharp corners in the switch.. you'd have a difficult time getting tools or even a qtip in there.


Since the switches I took apart were bone-dry.. a Quick blast from my air compressor and they're completely clean...... 

Offline VesperSAINT

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 16:25:24 »
When I lubed MX Browns, I only put Victorinox oil into the circular central shafts where the switch stems are inserted and a practically nonexistent amount of Krytox mixture along the sides of the stems--not along the front where they touch the metal leaf, along the bump.  The result was smoother and quieter but the bump was not affected.

(Also lubricated their springs with Victorinox oil.)

Took apart a batch of 110x switch recently.

Observations:

Exterior: Dust primarily collect around the outer ridge of the switch where the two halves meet.

Interior: Dust primarily collect along the side-guide-rails on the bottom piece of the housing.

Interior: Some switches had small dust-bunnies stuck to the 2 legs on the slider

Interior: Some switches had dust bunnies stuck to the 2 prong leaf-spring..


None of these switches seem to have been Lube-modded, these are the salvaged blacks I purchased from WhiskyTango.

Now.. HAD THEY BEEN lube-modded...

The side-slider-guides would absolutely "Gum-up"..  It would also be very impractical to clean because there are many tiny sharp corners in the switch.. you'd have a difficult time getting tools or even a qtip in there.


Since the switches I took apart were bone-dry.. a Quick blast from my air compressor and they're completely clean...... 


You do bring up a good point. For people who don't know, Whiskeytango's switches are this way because they are old terminal boards that were probably used in factories, and other dusty places, and they were obviously not maintained. Based on what you said, a person can do what you did and then lube the clean switches afterwards, and there will be no "gum-up" issues from here on out as long as the owner isn't using them in a garage or outside (I have dust covers for all my keyboards for when I'm not using them). I didn't have any issues because I just salvaged the stems and use them in the new switch housings from the keyboard I was installing them into (QFR Browns). However, I did use the top switch housings for the larger vintage CHERRY logo. They only required me to blow some air on them to get some of the dust off the top.

Offline korrelate

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 16:31:39 »
I haven't soldered my clears into my TrikX yet, but I did recently complete my first project: swapping the browns out of my Leopold and into my previously red-switched MJ2 (both TK). So... I can't compare (I've never even had an interest in vintage blacks).

Browns aren't heavily tactile to begin with and I was thinking, at the start of the project, that this would have removed all of the tactility. Not so. If there is any reduction, it's not noticeable. I used a 1:1.5 blend of mkawa's Krytox grease and oil kit on everything that WFD recommends lubing in his youtube video about lubing:

- sliders
- springs
- spring receptacle
- switch arms (the parts of the switch that actually interact with the contact mechanism).

Since the MJ2 is costar-stabilized I also lubed the white stabilizer brackets under the stabilized keys.

Results:
1. First of all: this was so mind-numbingly time consuming (even with Beast's stich top removal kit) that I was questioning my sanity and my sense of practicality every second I spent doing this.
2. That said... it's worth every second just for the sound. My MJ2 sounds better than any Topre (to my ears at least) I have heard on youtube. I mean it sounds awesome. If you do nothing else with mkawa's lube kit I recommend lubing your stabilizers. You have no idea how much better that one (rather simple) upgrade will make your keyboard.
3. I suspect that many factors contributed to the improvement in sound though. WFD suggests that merely desoldering and resoldering the switches can remove the ping from a Filco and I can say this for certain: I can't refute that claim. Perhaps the high temp lead-free solder that Filco uses puts a bit more strain on the board and the plate so that when the switches hit they ring out. I don't know, but between the lube and the re-soldering, I really, really enjoy this keboard.
4. My browns already had a good feel... I hated reds because of the lack of tactility and if these lubed browns felt anything like those reds I would have sold this thing in a hot second. They don't. They feel awesome. Tactility still there and still very subtle (I've always thought that my browns had a very subtle tactile presentation).
5. Also the switches didn't sound bad to begin with, but after lubing they sound magnificent. I used to wonder about Topre boards and now I just don't care because the MXs in my MJ2 feel that good.

Cheers,

K.

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Offline VesperSAINT

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 16:49:31 »
1. First of all: this was so mind-numbingly time consuming (even with Beast's stich top removal kit) that I was questioning my sanity and my sense of practicality every second I spent doing this.
2. That said... it's worth every second just for the sound. My MJ2 sounds better than any Topre (to my ears at least) I have heard on youtube. I mean it sounds awesome. If you do nothing else with mkawa's lube kit I recommend lubing your stabilizers. You have no idea how much better that one (rather simple) upgrade will make your keyboard.

Couldn't agree with these points more. Wait till you get to lubed Clears, bro. Lubed Ergo Clears are still my favorite switch along with 55g Thorpe. The sound is heavenly too!


I'll try to do a video on my lubed browns tonight or tomorrow night and compare it with my lubed ergo clears, but no guarantees.

Here are some older videos of my Filco MJ2 with Ergo Clears (sound is louder than real life because camera mic enhances sound):


Ergo Clears on this next video starts at 1:12:


Link for exactly where Ergo Clear starts in top video:
feature=player_detailpage#t=72
« Last Edit: Sun, 27 October 2013, 17:00:27 by VesperSAINT »

Offline Larken

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 22:00:35 »
lubed browns will not feel like reds. a slight reduction in tactility perhaps, but the tactility is still noticeable, even if you lube both the sliding rails and the legs that touches the metal leaf of the switch bottom housing. The lube will spread evenly after a few weeks of use, and that's when the 'feel' will settle down. I have browns (lubed with krytox, sliders and legs) that still feel tactile to me after months of use.

That said, if you don't want any reduction in tactility at all, I'd do what Photoelectric suggests and just do the springs/sliding rails, and not lube the legs. The result is a more solid and smoother typing experience which gets rid of the scratchiness that some people dislike about browns.

Generally, its an improvement to lube most switches with the exception of clicky switches (lubed clicky switches do feel and sound better, but it is so easy to screw up with them that I wouldn't recommend it unless you know what you're doing).

Imo, lubed browns are a nice all rounded switch. Ergoclears are my favorite switch for typing due to the high tactility, but not ideal for everything.
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Offline goobus

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 28 October 2013, 00:54:33 »
Wow these responses are amazing guys. Thanks!  Now it's time to break out the brown switches I desoldered from my 3 year old Filco, clean them, then lube everything.  Once my switch stickers from moz arrive, of course.

Pretty excited to make browns (already my favorite switch) feel even better!  Only thing is this is my first lubing experience (lol) and I'm not sure what to expect.  Do you guys use a brush to apply, or what? Mkawa sent me a syringe but not quite sure how to use that. My parents think I've become some kind of heroin addict but that's beside the point. :P

Offline goobus

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 28 October 2013, 13:33:00 »
Ok so another semi-related question...I just switched out the PBT keycaps on my Leopold FC700R with brown switches for a Miami set and all of a sudden they went from being buttery smooth to really scratchy.  What's going on? Did my pulling the keycaps out somehow change the placement of the spring or stem or something that made it super scratchy suddenly? Nothing makes sense!

Offline VesperSAINT

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 28 October 2013, 13:43:15 »
Ok so another semi-related question...I just switched out the PBT keycaps on my Leopold FC700R with brown switches for a Miami set and all of a sudden they went from being buttery smooth to really scratchy.  What's going on? Did my pulling the keycaps out somehow change the placement of the spring or stem or something that made it super scratchy suddenly? Nothing makes sense!

The caps are different plastics (Miami set is thin ABS, which imo, are the worst in terms of feel). PBTs in general just feel better, and even better if thick PBT. I believe the key caps on the FC700R are thick (semi-thick) PBT, which means they absorb more of the rattling. Try putting some of your Leopold keycaps back on, and they should still feel the same as before. As much as I love the look of many of the SP doubleshots, I can never use them because I'm too used to the great feel of thick PBT or GMK caps.
« Last Edit: Mon, 28 October 2013, 13:45:08 by VesperSAINT »

Offline goobus

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Re: Lubed MX Browns?
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 28 October 2013, 13:46:04 »
Thanks Vesper.

Btw, after seeing your HHKB pics I was inspired to get a HHKB Type-S.  Let's see how that works out! :)