Does this ErgoDox layout make sense?

[Data]

Greetings all.  I hope this is in the right place.

I'm very late to the ErgoDox party, having only learned of it in the last couple of months.  Can anyone tell me if this key layout makes sense for normal use?



It's pretty much standard QWERTY layout but I'd appreciate any feedback.  I don't completely understand how the layers work yet.  Are 4 "layer" keys sufficient?  Does the Teensy understand relative layer positions ("up" and "down") or does it only work with more specific commands (GO TO 1).  Are the layer keys handled like momentary modifiers or more like hard on/off switches?

F1 thru F12, Print Screen, Scroll Lock, and Pause/Break would be on Layer 2 in this layout.  NumPad functions live in a separate Leopold 210TP, so I'm not concerned with mirroring them on the ErgoDox.  I've looked at dozens of ErgoDox layouts trying to get it right before I invest in hardware.  Thanks for any comments.

[Smasher816]

Well since the ergodox uses a teensy it is fully programmable. I know the TMK port has support for both momentary and toggle layer buttons. You should be able to set up the keys however you want them to act.

[Jagriff]

Layouts are largely a question of personal preference, mostly due to your typing style and content. I find that the thumb keys work best for mods/space. That's the only thing I'd urge you to consider changing (especially the double enter). Everything else looks good in my opinion.

Short answer to the layer up/down question is no, although it's very simple to make that the behavior (simpler with Ben's firmware although doable with TMK). Research how layers work in both and if you have any questions about it, I can try to assist.

I posted this last night in the "Post your ErgoDox!" thread in the media section. Just to give you an idea... pay most attention to the non-alphanumeric keys.

(Attachment Link)

A few key points:
1) Backspace and delete are close together. I like this because I am able to switch between the two easily while still keeping a similar motion.
2) Shift and control as thumb keys (and alt close by). This not only allows me to easily use them in combinations with the alpha keys, but I'm also able to hit combinations of shift, control, and alt easily with my left thumb for more complex hotkeys. Having shift and control on the left thumb is also ideal for Starcraft.
3) Delete next to enter for easy delete and confirm delete (which occurs with just about any GUI). This works well when my right hand is on the mouse since the keys are close by.
4) Function layer on a thumb key for similar reasons as 2).
5) -_ key is right next to space. I am able to hit it with my thumb, using a similar motion as I do when spacing. This is nice because it's primarily when the -_ key is used. This can be annoying whenever I need to do something like " - " though, since my thumb does all the work.
6) Arrow hotkeys on HJKL (Colemak, so awkward position for most people) and mouse keys are easy to reach on the function layer.
7) Easy Alt+F4 on the function layer. Insert is also fairly easy to hit in combination with Shift/Control (for copy/pasting).
8) Easy reach to home/end keys. These make editing text very efficient. They are a chore to reach on normal TKL/fullsize keyboards.

Improvements/potential problems:
1) All of the F-keys are just there because I couldn't find anything else better to put on the bottom rows. I don't really use F-keys enough to warrant dedicated keys.
2) Insert is next to +L2, which I guess could cause problems if I make any typing mistakes. I haven't experienced this yet.
3) Getting used to having enter below where it normally is took a little bit of time. It has been the hardest change to adjust to since getting my ErgoDox a year ago.

[tp4tissue]

The only thing I find  a bit "off"  about your layout is the  apostrophe key, brackets and shift key..

I use apostrophe and brackets quite alot for prog.. and where you've put it is bit out of the way..   


because it's easier to reach UP than curl fingers DOWN...

This is my current layout..





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[Data]

Thanks for the responses guys.

What is the default behavior of the layer keys? I see a lot of layouts with +L2, +L3 keys. Are those just modifiers you're using in conjunction with another key to activate that key's layer X function? Am I reading that right?

[Jagriff]

What is the default behavior of the layer keys? I see a lot of layouts with +L2, +L3 keys. Are those just modifiers you're using in conjunction with another key to activate that key's layer X function? Am I reading that right?

Read the layers section under "Additional information" here: https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox. That's how they work with Ben's firmware. +L2 means that layer 2 is pushed. ~L2 means that layer 2 is toggled (this is the modifier version).

[Data]

Nice, thanks Jagriff. I had missed that page on Massdrop previously.

The way I'm reading it, I should be safe with 2 layer ”toggle" keys. My layer up/down aren't really necessary.

[tp4tissue]

Nice, thanks Jagriff. I had missed that page on Massdrop previously.

The way I'm reading it, I should be safe with 2 layer ”toggle" keys. My layer up/down aren't really necessary.

correct... because chances are, you can put more layer buttons on your second layer.. since it's unlikely that you'd HAVE to fill up 2 whole layers.

[Hazel]

My experience is that it doesn't matter what layout you think will work, once you try it you'll discover something wrong with it.  It's really a trial-and-error process to find something that works for you.   I'm on my 4th or 5th major iteration, and I'm still finding things that I need to change!

[Jagriff]

My experience is that it doesn't matter what layout you think will work, once you try it you'll discover something wrong with it.  It's really a trial-and-error process to find something that works for you.   I'm on my 4th or 5th major iteration, and I'm still finding things that I need to change!

Can you post your layout? I know people would be interested in what you've come up with.

[AKmalamute]

You've got to free your mind, man!

Fully programmable means those mods and punctuation can be where you actually want your fingers to go. Of course, then you have to train your fingers to go there -- Muscle memory is the single biggest reason why "alternative layouts" like dvorak haven't taken the world by storm -- and why people can even consider typing 100+ WPM.

here is the layout I'm ... sorta ... using right now. Spent two days so far typing on it, and the only real issue is how painful I've made the backslash. At work I'm on a windows machine, and I work in the IT department ... networking, quite often. UNC paths are awkward. I may move that to a random homerow key on the second layer.

ALSO! when you look at that, realize my computer is interpreting my keystrokes as on a dvorak layout. In particular, that means the little + / - keys are actually matched brackets, and to the right of my right pinky, is the forward slash.

I'd say more, but I'm at work and ... they want me to work now. *sigh*

[Hazel]

My experience is that it doesn't matter what layout you think will work, once you try it you'll discover something wrong with it.  It's really a trial-and-error process to find something that works for you.   I'm on my 4th or 5th major iteration, and I'm still finding things that I need to change!

Can you post your layout? I know people would be interested in what you've come up with.

Attached is my current layout.  It's Colemak, but the alphas could be rearranged for qwerty.   The goals of this layout are:

1.  Optimize for working in Visual Studio:  The left thumb cluster has F5, F10, F11, and a nearby shift key.   Anyone who uses VS knows the importance of these keys for debugging.

2. Use layers and thumbs to avoid reaching for distant key; optimize for programming:  Layer 1 gives quick access to symbols commonly used when programming, with the most important ({, }, -, =) on the home row.   Placing these on a layer didn't seem useful at first, but I tried it and it works great.  Arrow keys can be pressed with thumbs.  However, I have a habit of hitting PgUp accidentally, so the nav-key situation still needs some work.

3. Use/preserve standard keyboard muscle memory:  Shift and Control are in semi-standard positions.  Enter is still hit by the right pinky (and is much harder to hit accidentally).  Backspace is left of A, per Colemak convention.   Redundant backspace is in the upper-right, because I still find myself using it.

There are 2 additional layers:  L2 is a standard 10-key numpad on the right hand (but I find I hardly use it).   L3 mirrors the right hand onto the left, for 1-handed typing (neat but not very useful).