Author Topic: Blank slate learning to type — Workman Dvorak Colemak ErgoDox Heeeeeeelp?  (Read 5762 times)

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Offline HughJarss

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Hi everyone. I recently purchased an ErgoDox, and as soon as it’s built, it’ll be time to start making decisions.
For starters, which layout should I learn?
I’m leaning towards Workman, but very open to the wisdom of the wise folk on GH.

If anyone’s willing to help, I’d very much appreciate it. Think of me as an unformed lump of clay — although, actually, my ex-wife wouldn’t have said clay.
But I am unformed — I’ve never learned to type properly, and have hunted and pecked with two fingers for way too long.
I choose to see this as an advantage right now – no muscle memory to trick me when I start learning Dvorak, Colemak, Workman or whatever.
So, which should it be?

I write novels full time, so I guess my needs are a bit different than most people's. I write a LOT of dialogue, so need to use ' and " a lot, and I write a LOT of short sentences. So, lots of commas, full stops, and capital letters too. Also I use lots of ellipses, em-dashes and hyphens. Plus I start new paragraphs much more than most people do when they type.
I use a few shortcuts a lot, for italics for instance, and arrow keys when editing. But I rarely use numbers or F-keys.

I’ve been typing around a million words a year, plus doing a lot of editing of course, but hope to at least double that now I’m really full-time, and without developing any RSI.
I don’t need to type super-fast — but if I could get to a consistent, accurate 50WPM that would be fantastic.

I have no need to use anyone else’s keyboard or computer, ever — I work from home or wherever I choose to be. My whole office consists of a Macbook Pro and a keyboard, and no one else touches it. So no limitations there.

I suppose I’ll use an Apple trackpad when I’m editing — which I do lots of — but am very open to ideas there too. It’d be great to get this really sorted, as I’m either writing or editing six or seven days every week, between seven and eleven hours a day.

I plan to learn on the ErgoDox, then switch to an Axios or Keyboardio 01 once they become available. (Or something else if it makes sense.)
I have large hands, but my dexterity is pretty ordinary. After reading a lot here and applying it to my own situation, Workman seems to make sense to me. Fiddling about on a typing tutor site, I did seem to have the most difficulty getting at the bottom row with my middle and ring fingers.

But all this is guesswork, and I’m hoping to get some great advice from the very knowledgeable people here.
So, as a complete blank slate, where should I begin?
 

Offline tp4tissue

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Well, this is MY layout which you can try out.

It is designed around ergonomics, and to minimize the amount of "lifting" of the hands off the keyboard to "reach" for keys.

https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=7VNJ8Z&hash=2d7eaa83b50baf35b310eda97b0ef017


Also, remember TENTING the keyboard is very important to Ergonomics.. make sure you have a tent in both axis..

 
Now, as far as dvorak/qwerty debate.. it really doesn't matter, because the entire concept surrounding HOME ROW, is misunderstood.. 

NO experienced typists actually return their hands to the home row.  and jumping from one row to another is NOT a major hindrance when it comes to speed..

Check out my "compendium of speed guide" in the -other geeky stuff- section.

Offline davkol

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Learn Vim.

If you only type in English, Workman or MTGAP are decent choices.

Learn Vim.

Have I mentioned you should learn Vim?

Offline Keymonger

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tbh I think qwerty is not a big problem as long as you don't try to do the official touch typing thing. That's when qwerty sucks.

Currently I type qwerty in the kind of sloppy unofficial style and it doesn't bother me that much.

Touch typing is best for comfort I think, not speed. Speed is vastly overrated for typing. Higher numbers are always fun. But if you intend to type an enormous amount, focus on comfort.

I think Colemak is fine, Workman seemed good too from what I remember. I remember Dvorak kinda sucking because I used my right hand pinky too often. But all mentioned layouts are better than Qwerty for touch typing.

If you don't care much about compatibility you can try designing your own layout which is actually very easy. Unless you have something specific in mind it's probably unnecessary.

Offline steve.v

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Plover

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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Welcome to Geekhack!

I don't see any problems with your choices so far. Workman is a valid option and so is the ErgoDox. Any reason why you want to switch away from the ErgoDox? It seems a bit premature to be planning to switch already.

My main recommendation would be to look around at people's layouts for the ErgoDox to see what works for you. Here is a good start https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42463.0

Offline HughJarss

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Thank you all so much for all this. It's had me reading and learning more, which is great.


Also, remember TENTING the keyboard is very important to Ergonomics.. make sure you have a tent in both axis..

Thanks for this — amid all the shiny things I've been looking at and reading, it's a great reminder to get the basics right and go from there, whatever other choices are made. And your "compendium of speed guide" is awesome! I hadn't seen it, but have bookmarked it to refer to in the months ahead.

Learn Vim.

If you only type in English, Workman or MTGAP are decent choices.

Learn Vim.

Have I mentioned you should learn Vim?

You forgot to mention I should learn Vim. Oh no, hang on, there it is!
Looking at Vim, I thought, Hmmm, I'm not a coder. Then as I looked further I could see the possibilities. I'll definitely look at this once I've learned to type. It could really help when I'm editing novels, thanks.


Touch typing is best for comfort I think, not speed. Speed is vastly overrated for typing. Higher numbers are always fun. But if you intend to type an enormous amount, focus on comfort.

If you don't care much about compatibility you can try designing your own layout which is actually very easy. Unless you have something specific in mind it's probably unnecessary.

Yes, for me it's definitely about comfort and staying healthy. Right now I struggle to write 1000 words of fiction in an hour, with too much of my feeble brain's energy wasted on hunting and pecking — so if I could double that it'd be awesome. I'm beginning to understand I just need to choose somewhere to start, then fine tune things from there if I have any problems, or find ways to make life easier/more comfortable. Thanks!

Welcome to Geekhack!

I don't see any problems with your choices so far. Workman is a valid option and so is the ErgoDox. Any reason why you want to switch away from the ErgoDox? It seems a bit premature to be planning to switch already.

My main recommendation would be to look around at people's layouts for the ErgoDox to see what works for you. Here is a good start https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42463.0

Ha, SonOfSonOfSpock, you found me out! I'm so attracted to the shiny new (for me) world of proper keyboards and ergonomic excellence that I just want to burn through it, buying everything in my path and trying it all out. I guess, when I was young and racing motorbikes, there was always something I needed, go-fast parts for the bikes, or better protective gear or whatever — but now all I do is write, and once you buy your Macbook Pro and fill it up with the best software, there's no shiny new stuff to improve your life. Then you find out you've been typing on a keyboard that's so far from optimal it's ridiculous. You're right, of course. I have an ErgoDox, and it may turn out to be perfect for me.
I'm acting like a silly kid who learned to ride a motorbike last week and wants to buy the world's fastest bike before he's learned anything.
Thanks for the reality check.
And thanks too for pointing me at that thread with all those layouts, very helpful. I'm thinking I'll probably just go with Workman for now, and tweak things from there if I have any problems.
Thanks to you, and everyone else for all your help.

Offline mstechfreak

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Btw, guys, how did you learn to type on workman? I'm currently using help http://TypingStudy.com, but maybe there are even better solutions for that?

Offline davkol

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I don't see any problems with your choices so far. Workman is a valid option and so is the ErgoDox. Any reason why you want to switch away from the ErgoDox? It seems a bit premature to be planning to switch already.
That's simple: thumb clusters.

snip
Reported.

Quote from: HughJarss
You forgot to mention I should learn Vim. Oh no, hang on, there it is!
Looking at Vim, I thought, Hmmm, I'm not a coder. Then as I looked further I could see the possibilities. I'll definitely look at this once I've learned to type. It could really help when I'm editing novels, thanks.
It's absolutely crucial, because chording can get awkward on the ErgoDox, and the mostly text-only commands help you avoid having to deal with lack of keys for accessible arrows, function keys, etc.

If it wasn't for the chording part, you could have gone  with a layout similar to Apple's Dvorak-QWERTY (available for other systems too, and can be modified to work with any arrangement, of course).

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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I don't know if I want to be the reason to persuade somebody away from the new shiny. Especially if one of those new shinies is the Keyboardio. It looks like they are putting a lot of effort into the development.

Offline HughJarss

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It's absolutely crucial, because chording can get awkward on the ErgoDox, and the mostly text-only commands help you avoid having to deal with lack of keys for accessible arrows, function keys, etc.

If it wasn't for the chording part, you could have gone  with a layout similar to Apple's Dvorak-QWERTY (available for other systems too, and can be modified to work with any arrangement, of course).

Once I'm ready to start learning Vim, would you recommend any particular book, or some other resource to begin with?

I don't know if I want to be the reason to persuade somebody away from the new shiny. Especially if one of those new shinies is the Keyboardio. It looks like they are putting a lot of effort into the development.

Don't worry about that. The lure of the shiny Keyboardio is so strong, nothing will stop me buying and trying it. There's good money in writing bad books, and mine are terrible! And I have to spend all those ill-gotten gains on something. Besides, everyone needs a spare keyboard, right?   ;D

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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Btw, guys, how did you learn to type on workman? I'm currently using help http://TypingStudy.com, but maybe there are even better solutions for that?

This looks like as decent of a website as any. I've been fiddling around on http://thetypingcat.com/ trying out different layouts lately. One thing I like about it is that it will emulate the various layouts so you can practice before making the full jump to a new layout.

Offline davkol

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Once I'm ready to start learning Vim, would you recommend any particular book, or some other resource to begin with?
There are games like Vim Adventures, but I recommend simply going through the built-in tutorial and thinking about your habits every now and then; always have a cheatsheet at hand.

For example, I mostly use only "jump to the beginning/end of this sentence/paragraph", search/search&replace, the dot command ("repeat the last action") and swap the two characters around the cursor (in case of a typo).

Offline Oobly

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AFAIK there is only one layout properly optimised for vertical staggered boards with thumb keys and that is AdNW Bu-teck. It's optimised for German, though. I use my own version of it modified for English with my own design ergo board.

Something like:

BU,.Q   PCLMF
HIEAO   DTRNS
KY'-X   JGWVZ
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline davkol

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Ever heard of Maltron?

Offline Oobly

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Ever heard of Maltron?

Doh! <facepalm>

And Maltron of course, although Lillian Malt didn't have the advantage of modern computing power for optimisation like the AdNW software, it's very good for a hand-tuned layout.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.