Author Topic: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?  (Read 2212 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline psxndc

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 504
I'm starting to see a lot of high-profile sets/designers not including ortho or 40s support. This is troubling to me but I live in an ortho/40s bubble. While it seems to me that a lot of folks use them, maybe we're a very small minority. On the other hand, I personally don't see that many Alice-style boards out in the world, but they get supported in *every* GB (sometimes in the base set!) and I have more extra B keys than I can shake a stick at.

It'd be nice to see something that says "yes, psxndc, ortho users make up only 15% of the enthusiast userbase" or "40s boards are outsold 10:1 by 65%" but I don't think looking at a single group buy's distribution is a good metric (there may be any number of reasons why someone did or did not participate). Is there some aggregator of GB statistics out there?
Ortho. Always.

Offline Mistah

  • Posts: 66
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 26 March 2021, 15:22:56 »
I honestly have no idea. It does seem like the OLKB world is almost separate from the normal keyboard world haha. I would be willing to bet there are quite a few planck/preonic users. I think that people could just look at GB results and see how many buy ortho sets compared to the base (or otho mods vs standard mods). Would love to see that data aggregated somewhere.

That said, any GB for me that doesn't have 1u convex spacebars available gets a hard pass from me, because I want to have as versatile a keycap set as possible. I find that all of the KAT/KAM and a percentage of GMK groupbuys have decent support (if you buy spacebars kits or novelty mods with ambiguous legends). SA and DSA are both out because of the lack of spacebars smaller than 6u.

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1587
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 26 March 2021, 15:29:30 »
Run your own GB.

Two main things influence the GB.

WHO is running is and what they want to put in there.
Numbers from other GBs which people just have a feel for.  If you want a true aggregate, why don't you do it?  If truly there is a lot of demand for 40s/ortho and you can show it, you'll gain more support.  Bars on GMK weren't normal until enough people complained about it.  Now they're standard in basically every GMK GB..

I do think in you're probably overestimating the popularity of 40s/ortho...but hey, prove me wrong.

Offline Mistah

  • Posts: 66
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 26 March 2021, 16:08:39 »
Run your own GB.

Two main things influence the GB.

WHO is running is and what they want to put in there.
Numbers from other GBs which people just have a feel for.  If you want a true aggregate, why don't you do it?  If truly there is a lot of demand for 40s/ortho and you can show it, you'll gain more support.  Bars on GMK weren't normal until enough people complained about it.  Now they're standard in basically every GMK GB..

I do think in you're probably overestimating the popularity of 40s/ortho...but hey, prove me wrong.


I'm not a data scientist, nor do I have enough curiosity to match that amount of time. But I am a little curious, so here is some data from some of the most popular sets in recent history from each profile. Note that many ortho users mods might buy standard mods, but not many standard users will buy ortho mods. Anyway:

KAT:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/727625118137974896/766025129640984606/KATmizuStatus201001finYext.PNG?width=1433&height=912
Not many ortho here at all. Granted, the ortho set was a lot less cool because of the lack of any real novelties. Standard mods had about 9x more purchases than ortho and ergo combined. Ortho/ergo 6%, 40s 5%.

https://i.postimg.cc/bq5JFsQd/KATcyberspace-Status200904fin-Yext.png
More than the other one, ortho/ergo 18% 25.6% (edit: fixed, I must have missed a whole set)

KAM:

https://i.postimg.cc/YppBSGrr/KAMsuperuser-Status210302fin-Yext.png
I have a gut feeling that this set attracted the highest ortho/standard ratio. Ortho/ergo made up about 22% 20.4% (edit: fixed) of the modifier buys here

GMK:

https://i.postimg.cc/fTPhRP8J/GMKmodern-Dolch2status200702.png
Not a great set for ergo support, but we can see that Ortho/40s made up 12.7% of modifier buys here (noted for the fact that ortho/40s users still have to buy the base kit).
« Last Edit: Mon, 29 March 2021, 15:26:20 by Mistah »

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4519
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 26 March 2021, 21:31:14 »
I'm starting to see a lot of high-profile sets/designers not including ortho or 40s support. This is troubling to me but I live in an ortho/40s bubble. While it seems to me that a lot of folks use them, maybe we're a very small minority. On the other hand, I personally don't see that many Alice-style boards out in the world, but they get supported in *every* GB (sometimes in the base set!) and I have more extra B keys than I can shake a stick at.
You're in a very vocal teeny tiny minority.
Ortholinear is already minority in keyboards, now you want it in a 40% which is at the extreme of the hobby.

While it seems like a lot of people are buying expensive customs a lot are sold to the same people each time, that and the internet can greatly exaggerate things.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
Definitive Omron Guide. | 3d printed Keyboard FAQ/Discussion

Offline psxndc

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 504
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 26 March 2021, 21:39:35 »
Based on what? Mistah posted some indications that ortho/40 were around 20% of some GBs.

I’m not necessarily disputing your assertion, but I have no data and you didn’t cite any, so it seems speculative on both our parts. That’s what I’m trying to resolve. I’m curious if there’s data out there other than looking at one or two GBs.

And your comment about 40s being an even smaller subset of ortho isn’t really accurate. You can say a preonic is a 50%, but I’d group it with 40s and there are very few 60+ orthos. “40s/ortho” covers most orthos out there; it isn’t a niche subset.
Ortho. Always.

Offline kajahtaa

  • Posts: 272
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 26 March 2021, 22:38:48 »
I've always been a minority so I'm not feeling left out.

Today my Kyria is wearing typewriter alphas and BSP blanks.

Feels great.

Also I can cover this board with my 12$ taihao set.

SA Magica is open. 8010 is open.SA Nightlight was like 50$.

There's always something good to buy.

Seems like in the smkij discord taihao is common.


Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4519
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 26 March 2021, 23:58:15 »
Based on what? Mistah posted some indications that ortho/40 were around 20% of some GBs.

I’m not necessarily disputing your assertion, but I have no data and you didn’t cite any, so it seems speculative on both our parts. That’s what I’m trying to resolve. I’m curious if there’s data out there other than looking at one or two GBs.

And your comment about 40s being an even smaller subset of ortho isn’t really accurate. You can say a preonic is a 50%, but I’d group it with 40s and there are very few 60+ orthos. “40s/ortho” covers most orthos out there; it isn’t a niche subset.
That tells you very little about the hobby as whole.
When someone caters to them they jump on it because it's not common, they have to take what they can get while they can get it. 40% ortho users are also a more hardcore set of hobbyists and probably buy anything related. Many keycap buyers will also buy a complete set either because they collect them, want them just in case or for resale value, it does not mean they have a use for it.


As for data,
You're delusional if you think 40% ortho makes up anywhere close to 20% of this hobby.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
Definitive Omron Guide. | 3d printed Keyboard FAQ/Discussion

Offline psxndc

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 504
Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 27 March 2021, 01:23:02 »
As for data,
You're delusional if you think 40% ortho makes up anywhere close to 20% of this hobby.




KAT:
...

https://i.postimg.cc/bq5JFsQd/KATcyberspace-Status200904fin-Yext.png
More than the other one, ortho/ergo 18%.

KAM:

https://i.postimg.cc/YppBSGrr/KAMsuperuser-Status210302fin-Yext.png
I have a gut feeling that this set attracted the highest ortho/standard ratio. Ortho/ergo made up about 22% of the modifier buys here

I didn’t say I thought ortho made up 20%, I said some of the GBs that Mistah cited showed ortho was at 20%. And there are others Mistah cited that had like 6%. The whole point is that *I don’t know and I’m looking for data*. You’re throwing out “you’re delusional if you think it’s 20%” but you’re contributing nothing to the conversation because you’re not providing any data to support your position that it isn’t 20%. If you have the data, I’d love to see it because that’s literally what I’m asking for.

And I’ll say it one more time for good measure: I don’t have a position on this. I’m not trying to prove anything. I’m just trying to learn, based on data.
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 March 2021, 02:46:29 by psxndc »
Ortho. Always.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4519
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 27 March 2021, 05:47:18 »
I was not trying to say that you did think that, I'm saying those numbers are extremely skewed no matter how you look at them and you shouldn't use them to interpret much of anything.


As for who has that data,
After thinking this through a bit I can only come up with one semi accurate way... Switch sellers who sell in packs of 10 like Novelkeys and Zeal or specific pack sizes like 1up. You will get some overlap like 60 and 65% and some do tend to order a bit more than they need, but this is probably the most accurate numbers you will likely get.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
Definitive Omron Guide. | 3d printed Keyboard FAQ/Discussion

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 13568
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 27 March 2021, 07:54:02 »
Such statistics would be pointless,   it has already been decided upon by the Council of Tp4 that ERGODOX is the rightful Keeb for all Mankind.

Offline psxndc

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 504
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 27 March 2021, 08:40:52 »

As for who has that data,
After thinking this through a bit I can only come up with one semi accurate way... Switch sellers who sell in packs of 10 like Novelkeys and Zeal or specific pack sizes like 1up. You will get some overlap like 60 and 65% and some do tend to order a bit more than they need, but this is probably the most accurate numbers you will likely get.

That’s an interesting idea. I wouldn’t have thought of that. I personally always buy 70 to cover a 60 key preonic just in case and leave room for potentially messing up a switch or two (hence your comment about overlap), but that’s a really interesting way to approach it and like you said, maybe the most accurate absent aggregating all info from group buys. Thanks!
Ortho. Always.

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1587
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 29 March 2021, 13:23:41 »
Run your own GB.

Two main things influence the GB.

WHO is running is and what they want to put in there.
Numbers from other GBs which people just have a feel for.  If you want a true aggregate, why don't you do it?  If truly there is a lot of demand for 40s/ortho and you can show it, you'll gain more support.  Bars on GMK weren't normal until enough people complained about it.  Now they're standard in basically every GMK GB..

I do think in you're probably overestimating the popularity of 40s/ortho...but hey, prove me wrong.


I'm not a data scientist, nor do I have enough curiosity to match that amount of time. But I am a little curious, so here is some data from some of the most popular sets in recent history from each profile. Note that many ortho users mods might buy standard mods, but not many standard users will buy ortho mods. Anyway:

KAT:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/727625118137974896/766025129640984606/KATmizuStatus201001finYext.PNG?width=1433&height=912
Not many ortho here at all. Granted, the ortho set was a lot less cool because of the lack of any real novelties. Standard mods had about 9x more purchases than ortho and ergo combined. Ortho/ergo 6%, 40s 5%.

https://i.postimg.cc/bq5JFsQd/KATcyberspace-Status200904fin-Yext.png
More than the other one, ortho/ergo 18%.

KAM:

https://i.postimg.cc/YppBSGrr/KAMsuperuser-Status210302fin-Yext.png
I have a gut feeling that this set attracted the highest ortho/standard ratio. Ortho/ergo made up about 22% of the modifier buys here

GMK:

https://i.postimg.cc/fTPhRP8J/GMKmodern-Dolch2status200702.png
Not a great set for ergo support, but we can see that Ortho/40s made up 12.7% of modifier buys here (noted for the fact that ortho/40s users still have to buy the base kit).

I think you're wrong there.  Lots of people will buy many different mods because, as pointed out by Leslieann, they want the full set.   They want options, they want easier/better resale, etc.

There are tons of factors that come into the buying decisions..but you're interpreting them the way you want including making excuses for why.  Plus your calculations are wrong in some cases but nevermind that...


Here are some things to ask to understand some of the factors:

Lets just say 10% of all Alpha buyers, bought 40s mods when only half of the GBs have them for sale.
Do you think it would still be 10% if EVERY GB had them available?  Maybe, but probably not.  (it isn't even consistent now)
So there is an element of them not being available all the time..

We can also probably agree that 40% users are likely to be some of the most dedicated to the hobby..which means by GB, they are probably more likely to participate than others, even if only marginally so. So while those users are in the tiny minority, they're more likely to buy in general. 

When I look at the numbers you've just shown, whether or not to support 40s/ortho seems marginal.  If I were running a GB I'd certainly consider putting it in there but it also depends on what I'm trying to achieve.  I'd also consider if there were a ton of previous offerings, I may not bother going through the effort but I probably would.

The short of it is, if you want more 40s/ortho support, run your own GBs...that's the only way you're going to make sure it is in there.  Either that or convince people there is a significant percentage that wants them.  Unfortunately the numbers don't seem to point at that.  But using Barred F J in GMK as an example.  NO GMK GBs had them before.  Most hardcore GMK lovers wanted scoops and the thought of bars seemed ridiculous.  Some polls (which aren't scientific but showed the high percentage of users that actually wanted it), plus the low cost of adding them vs. many GBs at the time adding support for some less popular layouts, made adding them a no brainer but it took years for that to happen.  It probably really helped that one user in particular looked into how much it would be and actually bought some.  If the demand isn't there, try creating the demand.  Get people on board to 40s, to Ortho...run really cool GBs..maybe consider running 40s only GBs...Or consider piggybacking on a current GB and running the 40s mod part on your own.  (Front the money, etc).  I'm sure some GB runners would be ok with that. 

Point is, to me this sounds like people complaining about something and wanting the hobby to fix it.  It is "someone else fix it because *I* want it."    Unfortunately, unlike the FJ bar thing (which was more of an unknown quantity), you have the numbers working against you...so do something about it if you really want it changed. 

Offline Mistah

  • Posts: 66
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 29 March 2021, 15:02:00 »
There are tons of factors that come into the buying decisions..but you're interpreting them the way you want including making excuses for why.  Plus your calculations are wrong in some cases but nevermind that...

Come on, don't leave me hanging, where did I mess up? I'll correct it. I don't think I'm making excuses or even claims in any respect (other than "there are quite a few planck/preonic users"), I was just curious so I looked up some of the results of popular GBs. The "ortho users buy standard mods" was more a nod to sets that contain standard mods in their base set, but I ended up accommodating for that in the numbers.

Edit: I realized I kinda messed up the the KAM and KAT superuser one, I was a whole percent too high on KAM, and 7 percent too low on the KAT (must have missed a whole set)l. Should have used excel or something. Anyway, I checked through them and they should be good now.

But really it doesn't matter what factors go into buying decisions, if a set is bought it's bought. That's all the data says, and you can make whatever link you want. I think the only way to truly make a link would be to poll a bunch of people in a census or something. I don't think anyone here thinks that ortho preference is even close to matching staggered.
« Last Edit: Mon, 29 March 2021, 15:39:33 by Mistah »

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1587
Re: Is there a breakdown of keyboard popularity (full vs. TKL vs. ortho)?
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 30 March 2021, 11:48:52 »
There are tons of factors that come into the buying decisions..but you're interpreting them the way you want including making excuses for why.  Plus your calculations are wrong in some cases but nevermind that...

Come on, don't leave me hanging, where did I mess up? I'll correct it. I don't think I'm making excuses or even claims in any respect (other than "there are quite a few planck/preonic users"), I was just curious so I looked up some of the results of popular GBs. The "ortho users buy standard mods" was more a nod to sets that contain standard mods in their base set, but I ended up accommodating for that in the numbers.

Edit: I realized I kinda messed up the the KAM and KAT superuser one, I was a whole percent too high on KAM, and 7 percent too low on the KAT (must have missed a whole set)l. Should have used excel or something. Anyway, I checked through them and they should be good now.

But really it doesn't matter what factors go into buying decisions, if a set is bought it's bought. That's all the data says, and you can make whatever link you want. I think the only way to truly make a link would be to poll a bunch of people in a census or something. I don't think anyone here thinks that ortho preference is even close to matching staggered.

Taking a subset and interpreting it how you want to fit the narrative you want to portray is not reading the data.  There are also going to be gaps, no matter what you do, so you have to fill that data with a hypothesis supported by facts if you want to get to, at least a reasonable conclusion. 

Either way it really comes down to what I said before...If you want more 40s/ortho, do something about it.  Whining about it because your preferred GB didn't offer it isn't going to do anything.

Personally, if I was that passionate about it and I thought many others thought the same way, I'd piggyback off of a GB.  If they're not offering 40s/ortho, I'd see if I could work w/ the original runner to  order my own lot of mods and offer it as my own GB but filled by this one.  There would be upfront money but if I'm that confident about it, I'd do it.  I'd then reap whatever benefits come from that as well as having exerting influence on the direction of the hobby itself.  Of course if I was wrong, I could lose money....but surely if the demand was there and people are willing to pay that bit of premium then it would be successful.