Author Topic: HHKBs are not 45g! (Read 5112 times)

fossala · « **on:** Sat, 28 April 2012, 09:45:47 »

Can we confirm here that HHKBs are NOT 45g and more like 50-52g. I see post after post saying that they prefer 45g because they own a HHKB. I know they are "rated" at 45g but it is a bold face lie.

Mine average out at ~51g

MyNameIsFinn · « **Reply #1 on:** Sat, 28 April 2012, 10:15:29 »

Whatever, I still like em

Sent from my iPhone using an iPhone

Squelos · « **Reply #2 on:** Sat, 28 April 2012, 16:01:21 »

Some keys on my realforce 88ub are a tad lighter than 45g. I wonder how that is, but it seems the more used the keys are, the lighter they get.

tsangan · « **Reply #3 on:** Sat, 28 April 2012, 16:10:09 »

I thought most people knew this but

Quote

It should also be noted that Topre specifies the dome tolerance at +- 15g so technically they are with in specification. But still if there is some process limitation that does not allow them to do 10g steps they should really update their official weighting chart to reflect that.

Reference Topre wiki

Squelos · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat, 28 April 2012, 18:52:42 »

Yeah, but 15g is really a HUGE tolerance for $300 + boards.
I really dont see how it would be possible to have such a huge tolerance. Remember, the weight goes between 35g and 55g.
A 15g tolerance on a 35g switch is like a .... 50% tolerance ! Wat da fuq ? That means that your switch could vary between ... 20g and 50g ?

I think the 15g is just a bollox of a number given by marketing or something like that.

One thing missing in the topre wiki is the how to clean your topre board. Wonder why that isnt in yet :/

tp4tissue · « **Reply #5 on:** Sat, 28 April 2012, 19:25:09 »

Quote from: Squelos;585148

Yeah, but 15g is really a HUGE tolerance for $300 + boards.
I really dont see how it would be possible to have such a huge tolerance. Remember, the weight goes between 35g and 55g.
A 15g tolerance on a 35g switch is like a .... 50% tolerance ! Wat da fuq ? That means that your switch could vary between ... 20g and 50g ?

I think the 15g is just a bollox of a number given by marketing or something like that.

One thing missing in the topre wiki is the how to clean your topre board. Wonder why that isnt in yet :/

That's why topre owners are suckers.

MyNameIsFinn · « **Reply #6 on:** Sat, 28 April 2012, 19:49:53 »

Quote from: tp4tissue;585153

That's why topre owners are suckers.

Tp4 yusotroll

Sent from my iPhone using an iPhone

thegunner100 · « **Reply #7 on:** Sat, 28 April 2012, 19:51:30 »

Lets not get this thread closed down :behindsofa:

sam113101 · « **Reply #8 on:** Sat, 28 April 2012, 21:00:17 »

Is it the same with realforce keyboards?

fossala · « **Reply #9 on:** Sun, 29 April 2012, 03:04:57 »

The realforce I have tried weigh pretty much what they are speced at. The HHKBs are consistently just over 50g.

dotancohen · « **Reply #10 on:** Sun, 29 April 2012, 03:51:46 »

Quote from: fossala;584779

Can we confirm here that HHKBs are NOT 45g and more like 50-52g. I see post after post saying that they prefer 45g because they own a HHKB. I know they are "rated" at 45g but it is a bold face lie.

Mine average out at ~51g

Thanks for mentioning this. I have very sensitive fingertips and this would be an issue if I were to buy such a board.

fossala · « **Reply #11 on:** Sun, 29 April 2012, 03:55:27 »

Not really, I like them because they are bouncey. I find HHKB less tiering than variable.

Squelos · « **Reply #12 on:** Sun, 29 April 2012, 07:34:32 »

I wonder why HHKB average at around 50 while realforce board stay in the 45g average. Quite weird I find :/

fossala · « **Reply #13 on:** Sun, 29 April 2012, 07:49:37 »

People have said that topre rubber domes and HHKB domes aren't identical.

fstop · « **Reply #14 on:** Sun, 29 April 2012, 07:51:22 »

If there's a 15g tolerance how do variable weights even feel? Wouldn't some 30g feel like 45g, and vice-versa all over the board?

mickd · « **Reply #15 on:** Sun, 29 April 2012, 07:56:21 »

That's probably just a "it's not defective if its within 15g", but in actuality most would be pretty spot on, +/- a few grams.

fossala · « **Reply #16 on:** Sun, 29 April 2012, 08:01:01 »

Quote from: mickd;585495

That's probably just a "it's not defective if its within 15g", but in actuality most would be pretty spot on, +/- a few grams.

Yeah I found them to be spot on as well. Just the HHKBs seem to be rated wrongly as they all weigh around the same, just more than they say.

fstop · « **Reply #17 on:** Sun, 29 April 2012, 19:55:30 »

This is good information to keep in mind. I have a variable weight 87u coming in, guess I could use it to gauge whether or not I want to try an HHKB.

Squelos · « **Reply #18 on:** Mon, 30 April 2012, 16:21:41 »

Realforce 88ub here, recording just above 45g.
Dont know how old it is, and how heavily it has been used, but the keys look quite new, so im guessing it hasnt been used all that much.

That wiki needs info on how to clean and maintain your realforce in pristine condition.

ajx · « **Reply #19 on:** Tue, 01 May 2012, 00:16:02 »

sorry if my question aint be related to this thread but how hhkb keys feel in game
i get use to type mostly with cherry switch, how is it (topre switch) feels in comparison to cherry?

limmy · « **Reply #20 on:** Tue, 01 May 2012, 23:57:12 »

Quote from: ripster;586598

That wiki needs a lot more updating than just that.

BTW I'm typing on my Realforce 87U right now and Limmy it's STILL 50g according to the RipOmeter!!!

Hi ripster,

Did you see my measurements on my like-new Realforce? The measurements were impressively close to the designed specification at most +/- 5g off and on average very close. My 5-year old HHKB is day and night different from my Realforce 87U and HHKB requires on-average 10g more than the designed specification of 45g. See measurements of my HHKB here.

I would conjecture your RF has gained about 5g over time, considering how close my measurements were to the original specification.

I will see how measurements of my RF 87U change over time using the same method. I didn't use the dithering method since the dithering is only useful if unit of increment is large and since it only lowers measurements.

iodine131 · « **Reply #21 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 05:07:13 »

Haven't tested my HHKB pro2, but whether it's 45G or not, its simplicity and size cannot be replaced:thumb:

ch_123 · « **Reply #22 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 08:42:57 »

Quote

Yeah, but 15g is really a HUGE tolerance for $300 + boards.

Last time I learned maths, 51 - 45 = 7g.

No matter how much the keyboard cost, the realities of manufacturing mean that these things are never going to be perfectly on spec.

At least it's not like Cherry whose rate activation force is 10g greater than the actual peak stiffness of the key...

Djuzuh · « **Reply #23 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 08:45:19 »

Quote

Last time I learned maths, 51 - 45 = 7g

°°

Where did you learn math?

csm725 · « **Reply #24 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 08:50:34 »

Quote from: ch_123;588045

Last time I learned maths, 51 - 45 = 7g.

Right...

alaricljs · « **Reply #25 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 08:52:09 »

Quote from: tsangan;585068

I thought most people knew this but
Reference Topre wiki

Quote from: ch_123;588045

Last time I learned maths, 51 - 45 = 7g.

Perhaps some more work on reading rather than math? The Topre wiki says topre specifies +/- 15g tolerance. Hence no math was needed.

ch_123 · « **Reply #26 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 09:04:48 »

Quote from: Djuzuh;588049

°°

Where did you learn math?

Heh, had 52g in my head when I wrote that. I'm a bit absent minded today.

Quote from: alaricljs;588054

Perhaps some more work on reading rather than math? The Topre wiki says topre specifies +/- 15g tolerance. Hence no math was needed.

Right, seems I misunderstood that part, but I think it's still fair to say that it's as good as tolerances are likely to get. Cherry switches, for example, have similar tolerances - See here. I recall buckling springs have ~12g tolerances. Sure, more expensive keyboards, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can avoid imperfections... (I think we can all agree that Topres have ... a rather generous profit margin, to put it euphemistically)

ch_123 · « **Reply #27 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 09:10:59 »

And a moderation team too! Feels like OCN without the trolling potential...

Nighted · « **Reply #28 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 09:11:39 »

^^ Keyboard Nazi! [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 49661[/ATTACH]

Squelos · « **Reply #29 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 11:35:15 »

I was just pointing out that giving a 15g tolerance, on 45g keys, is really a lot, for a product that does cost at least 300$.

Cherry switches/boards are considerably cheaper, and the tolerance is pretty much the same.

itlnstln · « **Reply #30 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 11:58:00 »

Quote from: fossala;585491

People have said that topre rubber domes and HHKB domes aren't identical.

That was me, and while this is true, it might more due to creating a mat for the form factor and less on key feel. You can change the feel slightly by swapping the domes with a RF, but the overall structure of the 'board seems to be the bigger factor. The switch casings are a little different between the two and the HHKB is all-plastic where the RF employs a metal plate for mounting the switches. I believe the extra rigidity in the RF case is a bigger player than the domes themselves.

At the end of the day, Cherry FTW.

itlnstln · « **Reply #31 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 12:56:00 »

If rubber does stiffen over time, it would take a long amount of time to stiffen noticeably (unless it's out in the weather at the coast or something).

alaricljs · « **Reply #32 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 14:18:44 »

Most of the RD boards I have experienced getting worse over time have been the mechanics of the board, like whatever arrangement the keys slide in getting sticky or loose enough to jam if you don't hit the exact center of the key.

Squelos · « **Reply #33 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 14:59:31 »

Quote from: alaricljs;588297

Most of the RD boards I have experienced getting worse over time have been the mechanics of the board, like whatever arrangement the keys slide in getting sticky or loose enough to jam if you don't hit the exact center of the key.

Any way of cleaning the mechanics ? Because this seems sucky :/

limmy · « **Reply #34 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 18:29:10 »

Quote from: ripster;588264

Most of my numbers show new rubber domes being stiffer than older ones. See link above.

What are the numbers from new and old rubber domes? How reliable are your data?

Quote from: itlnstln;588254

If rubber does stiffen over time, it would take a long amount of time to stiffen noticeably (unless it's out in the weather at the coast or something).

My HHKB was noticeably stiff after 2 and half years(that was when I began to look for suitable lubricants for HHKB). At the time I thought the stiffness may have been from worn out lubricant. After 5 years of daily use, average actuation force was 60g for alpha keys even after proper lubrication(RO-59 + Krytox). (source)

Quote from: alaricljs;588297

Most of the RD boards I have experienced getting worse over time have been the mechanics of the board, like whatever arrangement the keys slide in getting sticky or loose enough to jam if you don't hit the exact center of the key.

I agree. I too think most of discomfort is from friction build up. Even though my 5-year-old HHKB is on average 60g, I don't really feel discomfort after lubrication of the sliders. However, if the rubber dome had not stiffen I think the friction build up may have been less of an issue.

Quote from: Squelos;588329

Any way of cleaning the mechanics ? Because this seems sucky :/

I think it is more of a lubrication and wear problem than cleaning.

limmy · « **Reply #35 on:** Wed, 02 May 2012, 18:37:26 »

Quote 1

Quote from: ripster;588241

I seriously doubt it got ANY stiffer. Nickels or paper clips never lie according to Newton.

Quote 2

Quote from: ripster;546243

So Girlz now that you little spat is hopefully over.... these are the numbers:

50g
(Attachment Link) 44144[/ATTACH]

or around 52g using 1Yen 1.00g pieces if you want Webwit false precision (see Elitekeyboards post earlier in this thread before all the bickering).
(Attachment Link) 44143[/ATTACH]

I'm typing on it now after a week on the Cherry Reds. It does feel a bit stiffer but if it's anything like last time in a week my fingers will adjust.

I AM curious to see if the RipOmeter numbers come down though. They were 45g when I measured it here:

The Invention Of The RipOmeter - A MOMENTOUS Occasion In Keyboard Science

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5697&do=comments&page=6
(Attachment Link) 44146[/ATTACH]

Quote2 : 52-45=7
Quote1 : 52-45=0??

Why did you make the Nickles and 1 Yen coins lie ripster?

News:

Author Topic: HHKBs are not 45g! (Read 5112 times)

fossala

fossala

fossala

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