Author Topic: PBT vs POM... anything else?  (Read 15812 times)

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Offline LouisHjelmslev

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PBT vs POM... anything else?
« on: Mon, 06 May 2013, 19:29:01 »
Being new to cherry's, I've now passed the one month mark (more or less).
All is good, however one thing really bugs me. After about 75,000 words in the month, I can clearly see that about a third of the keys are getting shiny. I've been using the standard ABS's from a Filco Ninja.

I've read that PBT is the way to go, and I'm intending to go scouting for some soon.
However I know very little about POM's... any advice?

Aesthetics aren't that important, just need to find a blank + black + ISO + fullsize (but I am loving the Ninja side printed)

Many thanks.
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 May 2013, 19:30:57 by LouisHjelmslev »

Offline Rule16

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 06 May 2013, 21:17:06 »
Being new to cherry's, I've now passed the one month mark (more or less).
All is good, however one thing really bugs me. After about 75,000 words in the month, I can clearly see that about a third of the keys are getting shiny. I've been using the standard ABS's from a Filco Ninja.

I've read that PBT is the way to go, and I'm intending to go scouting for some soon.
However I know very little about POM's... any advice?

Aesthetics aren't that important, just need to find a blank + black + ISO + fullsize (but I am loving the Ninja side printed)

Many thanks.
Dont listen to all the PBT fanboys. They like ti spew up hype about how their keycaps are the best when really, like everything else in this hobby, its all personal preference. Get whatever you want, and form your own opinion on it.
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Offline Jocelyn

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 06 May 2013, 21:31:07 »
Dont listen to all the PBT fanboys. They like ti spew up hype about how their keycaps are the best when really, like everything else in this hobby, its all personal preference. Get whatever you want, and form your own opinion on it.

We just don't like SHINY caps  :p

Offline davkol

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 06 May 2013, 21:39:45 »
POM ~ smooth, PBT ~ textured

It depends what you prefer.

Offline PointyFox

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 06 May 2013, 21:49:26 »
POM ~ smooth, PBT ~ textured

It depends what you prefer.

WTF. Keycaps can be made with any texture. I think texture is being confused with friction.  There are many types of plastic; like PEEK for instance.  ABS and PBT are the most common because they are very cheap (except when used to make keycaps apparently...lol).

Offline davkol

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 06 May 2013, 21:59:30 »
Show me POM keycaps with rough texture. I haven't seen any so far.

Offline PointyFox

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 06 May 2013, 22:08:31 »
Show me POM keycaps with rough texture. I haven't seen any so far.

No, I don't have any.  POM is a plastic.  Plastics can be rough.

Offline davkol

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 06 May 2013, 22:13:57 »
very low coefficient of friction

Offline Surnia

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 06 May 2013, 23:21:08 »
Show me POM keycaps with rough texture. I haven't seen any so far.
I have the keycool POM caps that share the same texture as the choc mini, both of which are significantly more textured than my filco ABS.

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Offline rootwyrm

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 07 May 2013, 02:27:07 »
First of all, the idea that PBT is "textured" and ABS can be "textured" equivalently is false unless the fundamental laws of physics and chemistry have suddenly become null and void. A large part of PBT's texture comes from the way the plastic cures, not from the mold itself. If you use an identical mold for ABS and PBT (which by the way, I don't believe you can due to various differences) the ABS will cure more smoothly than the PBT every single time.

Secondly, the fact is that ABS has a much lower abrasive resistance than PBT and POM. The lower the cost of the ABS, the lower the resistance to abrasion. This is why I can shine ABS keycaps in a matter of weeks if not less, and actually wear through them in less than a year, but get 2-3 years out of PBT and POM.

The key differences between PBT and POM are mostly to do with the manufacturing process and chemical structure.
Polybutylene terephthalate (how's that for a mouthful) has a less uniform finish, giving PBT keycaps their signature texture. However, with specific techniques, PBT can in fact be made as smooth as ABS - the IBM two piece keycaps are PBT lowers and uppers, and the lowers are some of the smoothest plastic you will ever see. PBT is also harder to work with and more chemically complex.
Polyoxymethylene (try and pronounce it, I dare you) offers superior rigidity to PBT with lower typical friction. But you all already knew that. See, POM's primary US "trade name" is Delrin. Yes, that Delrin. Now you begin to understand the structural rigidity difference. ;)
Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene by comparison is chemically simple, easy to work with in (most commonly sold and handled as pellets.) It also has a very low glass transition point of 105C, but no melting point, which reduces the operating costs relative to PBT and POM.

Part of the reason PBT is so expensive is that it has extreme soluble sensitivity, and a low soluble temperature of 60C (what makes it possible to dye PBT, in fact.) This is offset by a very high 260C+ temperature required to mold it. Heat requires power and power costs money - PBT can literally cost more than twice as much as ABS in this regard.
POM slots in nicely between ABS and PBT in that it offers durability comparable to PBT, lower friction, and higher rigidity. Since I used BASF Ultradur above, I'll use BASF Ultraform - 166C melting point. Meaning the energy costs for POM in fact, slot roughly between ABS and PBT. As you can guess, the 'lower friction' does in fact mean that POM has a smoother texture compared to PBT.

There's a whole bunch of other stuff that has to do with the molding method, extrusion versus pelletized, and so on that I honestly know nothing at all about. The key differences between all of them as far as keycaps go come down to durability, rigidity, and coefficient of friction.

As to which is best? Sure, ABS double-shots are definitely superior in terms of quality to ABS pad-printed. That's just chemical and mechanical fact. POM and PBT will both outlast ABS - again, that's chemistry and engineering talking.
Whether or not ABS is superior to PBT or PBT is superior to POM for your use is a strictly personal decision though. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something.

This message brought to you by "RootWyrm used to work in a building that also housed a plastics supply company and got curious about why ABS didn't melt."  :cool:
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 May 2013, 02:32:07 by rootwyrm »
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Offline LouisHjelmslev

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 07 May 2013, 03:11:32 »
haha, such spirited remarks! Thanks a lot, I think I understand the situation.
So the breakdown is that they're both more durable to ABS, but PBT tends to be more textured than POM, due to manufacturing processes.

Given that a bit of texture makes my fingertips smile, I think the best course of action would be fore PBT.

Thanks guys!

Offline F u r u y á

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 07 May 2013, 09:14:41 »
All is good, however one thing really bugs me. After about 75,000 words in the month, I can clearly see that about a third of the keys are getting shiny. I've been using the standard ABS's from a Filco Ninja.
Aesthetics aren't that important, just need to find a blank + black + ISO + fullsize (but I am loving the Ninja side printed)

I know your pain. Shiny and sticky keycaps are very bad, I hate how they feel too. PBT is much more durable *and* slippery than ABS. POM is even more (both durable and slippery). My personal favorite is POM, but PBT does the work for me too (right now I'm using PBT).

Aesthetically speaking, I think that blanks are pretty and elegant!

Also, keep an eye open for this interest check if you you're interested in POM blanks (don't forget to manifest your interest :) ). As for printed POM, there are some keyboards that comes with it, like PLU ML-87 (and I'm sure there are others).


There are lots of good and technical information available in this subject:
http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/kecycap/3591367
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26646.msg520472#msg520472
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39175.0
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Offline Surnia

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 07 May 2013, 15:56:06 »
The key differences between PBT and POM are mostly to do with the manufacturing process and chemical structure.
Polybutylene terephthalate (how's that for a mouthful) has a less uniform finish, giving PBT keycaps their signature texture. However, with specific techniques, PBT can in fact be made as smooth as ABS - the IBM two piece keycaps are PBT lowers and uppers, and the lowers are some of the smoothest plastic you will ever see. PBT is also harder to work with and more chemically complex.
Polyoxymethylene (try and pronounce it, I dare you) offers superior rigidity to PBT with lower typical friction. But you all already knew that. See, POM's primary US "trade name" is Delrin. Yes, that Delrin. Now you begin to understand the structural rigidity difference. ;)
Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene by comparison is chemically simple, easy to work with in (most commonly sold and handled as pellets.) It also has a very low glass transition point of 105C, but no melting point, which reduces the operating costs relative to PBT and POM.

Is it bad that i can pronounce those with no problems at all? >_>

Chem major ftw!

To be quite honest I'm surprised delrin/POM isn't more common given how many industries use it...

Noppoo Choc Mini with MX Black | Filco 104 MJ2 Ninja with MX Black

Offline nsrexler

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 09:35:33 »
Bit of a thread hijack, but does anyone know where I can buy a full set of POM keycaps with legends? feng has a set of blank rainbow keycaps, but neither blanks nor rainbow colors interest me.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 09:40:27 »
Dont listen to all the PBT fanboys. They like ti spew up hype about how their keycaps are the best when really, like everything else in this hobby, its all personal preference. Get whatever you want, and form your own opinion on it.

We just don't like SHINY caps  :p

Speak for yourself. ;D
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 09:41:34 »
Aside from the aesthetic irregularity regarding ABS "shine"

When the cap surface becomes "smooth" it becomes "sticky"..  That's really the only problem..  None of the other attributes regarding the plastic matters.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 09:44:36 »
Aside from the aesthetic irregularity regarding ABS "shine"

When the cap surface becomes "smooth" it becomes "sticky"..  That's really the only problem..  None of the other attributes regarding the plastic matters.

It's not a problem, it's a feature! Seriously, I love the grippiness of smooth ABS, and I pretty much hate the way textured PBT feels, as my fingers slide around on the keycaps.
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Offline Surnia

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 09:53:06 »
Bit of a thread hijack, but does anyone know where I can buy a full set of POM keycaps with legends? feng has a set of blank rainbow keycaps, but neither blanks nor rainbow colors interest me.

Waiting on Keycool to get back to Qtan on it. He's looking into picking up some of their side print POMs (I asked if he can procure some 104 sets), but they only list 37 key sets on the chinese site.

It's not a problem, it's a feature! Seriously, I love the grippiness of smooth ABS, and I pretty much hate the way textured PBT feels, as my fingers slide around on the keycaps.

Its the whole Personal Preference thing, I hate how that sticky/greasy feel gets on ABS because it starts becoming difficult to tell if my hands are clean or not...

Noppoo Choc Mini with MX Black | Filco 104 MJ2 Ninja with MX Black

Offline LouisHjelmslev

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 13:59:16 »
As an aside, do 'rubbery' keycaps exist? This surely would prevent slide...

Offline davkol

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 14:45:14 »
As an aside, do 'rubbery' keycaps exist? This surely would prevent slide...

Yup, e.g. on CM Storm keyboards.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 15:36:47 »
Aside from the aesthetic irregularity regarding ABS "shine"

When the cap surface becomes "smooth" it becomes "sticky"..  That's really the only problem..  None of the other attributes regarding the plastic matters.

It's not a problem, it's a feature! Seriously, I love the grippiness of smooth ABS, and I pretty much hate the way textured PBT feels, as my fingers slide around on the keycaps.

m....... fine.... yes, it is a "feature"..     :p :p :p :p

Offline dmreeves

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 15:44:54 »
Seems to be a resolved issue, but if it matters to you OP I'd offer my opinion for you to digest. I like most people didn't even know there were different types of keycap material out there but after some research into a new mechanical keyboard I simultaneously discovered that PBT was well liked and preferred by many over ABS. I subsequently bought a KBT pure with PBT caps and fell in love the instant my figners brushed across the keys.

I'd describe it as a more powdered plastic feel as opposed to the smooth glossy finish of the ABS keys. They seem to collect less crud as well.

Just my 2 cents! Hope you are happy if you got the PBT route, please let us know your experiences.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 15:48:37 »
it does.

Seems to be a resolved issue, but if it matters to you OP I'd offer my opinion for you to digest. I like most people didn't even know there were different types of keycap material out there but after some research into a new mechanical keyboard I simultaneously discovered that PBT was well liked and preferred by many over ABS. I subsequently bought a KBT pure with PBT caps and fell in love the instant my figners brushed across the keys.

I'd describe it as a more powdered plastic feel as opposed to the smooth glossy finish of the ABS keys. They seem to collect less crud as well.

Just my 2 cents! Hope you are happy if you got the PBT route, please let us know your experiences.

Seems to be a resolved issue, but if it matters to you OP I'd offer my opinion for you to digest. I like most people didn't even know there were different types of keycap material out there but after some research into a new mechanical keyboard I simultaneously discovered that PBT was well liked and preferred by many over ABS. I subsequently bought a KBT pure with PBT caps and fell in love the instant my figners brushed across the keys.

I'd describe it as a more powdered plastic feel as opposed to the smooth glossy finish of the ABS keys. They seem to collect less crud as well.

Just my 2 cents! Hope you are happy if you got the PBT route, please let us know your experiences.

The agreed upon term is "Satin- Finish" :D  Lol,, powdered is nice too :D

Offline F u r u y á

  • Posts: 427
Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 16:42:30 »
As an aside, do 'rubbery' keycaps exist? This surely would prevent slide...

Yup, e.g. on CM Storm keyboards.

Octopus Rubber Keycaps



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Offline LouisHjelmslev

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 17:49:35 »
hm. dmreeves, I jive with the way you stated it.
Now to look for some ISO PBT's!

btw, thanks furuya, I learn so much from being on here!
However, that's a bit too much rubber for me... I feel like erasing something right now.

Offline F u r u y á

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 08 May 2013, 18:04:26 »
No problem. I don't like it either, was just answering your question.
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Offline TotalChaos

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Re: PBT vs POM... anything else?
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 11:01:38 »
First of all, the idea that PBT is "textured" and ABS can be "textured" equivalently is false unless the fundamental laws of physics and chemistry have suddenly become null and void. A large part of PBT's texture comes from the way the plastic cures, not from the mold itself. If you use an identical mold for ABS and PBT (which by the way, I don't believe you can due to various differences) the ABS will cure more smoothly than the PBT every single time.

Secondly, the fact is that ABS has a much lower abrasive resistance than PBT and POM. The lower the cost of the ABS, the lower the resistance to abrasion. This is why I can shine ABS keycaps in a matter of weeks if not less, and actually wear through them in less than a year, but get 2-3 years out of PBT and POM.

The key differences between PBT and POM are mostly to do with the manufacturing process and chemical structure.
Polybutylene terephthalate (how's that for a mouthful) has a less uniform finish, giving PBT keycaps their signature texture. However, with specific techniques, PBT can in fact be made as smooth as ABS - the IBM two piece keycaps are PBT lowers and uppers, and the lowers are some of the smoothest plastic you will ever see. PBT is also harder to work with and more chemically complex.
Polyoxymethylene (try and pronounce it, I dare you) offers superior rigidity to PBT with lower typical friction. But you all already knew that. See, POM's primary US "trade name" is Delrin. Yes, that Delrin. Now you begin to understand the structural rigidity difference. ;)
Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene by comparison is chemically simple, easy to work with in (most commonly sold and handled as pellets.) It also has a very low glass transition point of 105C, but no melting point, which reduces the operating costs relative to PBT and POM.

Part of the reason PBT is so expensive is that it has extreme soluble sensitivity, and a low soluble temperature of 60C (what makes it possible to dye PBT, in fact.) This is offset by a very high 260C+ temperature required to mold it. Heat requires power and power costs money - PBT can literally cost more than twice as much as ABS in this regard.
POM slots in nicely between ABS and PBT in that it offers durability comparable to PBT, lower friction, and higher rigidity. Since I used BASF Ultradur above, I'll use BASF Ultraform - 166C melting point. Meaning the energy costs for POM in fact, slot roughly between ABS and PBT. As you can guess, the 'lower friction' does in fact mean that POM has a smoother texture compared to PBT.

There's a whole bunch of other stuff that has to do with the molding method, extrusion versus pelletized, and so on that I honestly know nothing at all about. The key differences between all of them as far as keycaps go come down to durability, rigidity, and coefficient of friction.

As to which is best? Sure, ABS double-shots are definitely superior in terms of quality to ABS pad-printed. That's just chemical and mechanical fact. POM and PBT will both outlast ABS - again, that's chemistry and engineering talking.
Whether or not ABS is superior to PBT or PBT is superior to POM for your use is a strictly personal decision though. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something.

This message brought to you by "RootWyrm used to work in a building that also housed a plastics supply company and got curious about why ABS didn't melt."  :cool:

I hereby unilaterally award the above post:

Keyboard Science Post of the Week
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