Why is topre so good?

[JunkFace]

Okay guys, so I may not have as much experience as the rest of you, but I do own a few mechanical keyboards, blues, browns, model m's and some other vintage switches. 

Anyway I just bought a Realforce 104UB from a user here and it feels so, soo, sooooo good.  I'm writing this almost as an excuse to be typing right now, that's how much I like these switches.

Anytime I plug in my blue keyboard it almost has a cheap feeling and it's pretty substantial.  I remember switching from my old rubber dome to mechanical and it's almost that big of a difference to me.  It's like listening to vinyl after only hearing MP3's or tubes after only using solid state amplifiers.

I don't know guys, I think I'm in love.

I may never buy another keyswitch again.  Has anyone else had an experience like this?  I can't be alone.  But this keyboard is seriously too good.  I used to think people were crazy for regarding HHKB's so highly (and I do have the lite version, so I'm familiar with the layout) but now I can totally see it.

Seriously guys, topre.

[hcry4]

You're on the winning team now.

[dustinhxc]

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HUGE Thanks goes out to Skcheng for my first Buckling Spring IBM Space Saving Keyboard! 87' Model, I love the legends! I have performed the floss mod as well, it sounds great.
This is a beautiful restoration done by Phosphorglow, big thanks to you too for this amazing restore. Fantastic job throughout the entire board!

Better than new - nice one! :D

It's made from pure goodness. :)

[tp4tissue]

You are experiencing ...  Familiarity ...

Most people grew up on Rubber domes, and the very specific Tactility associated with the compressive membrane design.

Topre gives you exactly that... but, obviously they are improved because they do not require significant pressure to assure activation of the key..


For older people who grew up on Model M,  they'd would feel more at home with Cherry clears or new-buckling springs.



As far as,....  is Topre better/worse than  xxxxxx..   


 it's better than standard rubber dome, ANYTHING is better than standard rubber dome...




That however is the END of the whole story..   everything else you say or feel about topre is opinion based on the programming you've received through your life.. 

[Firebolt1914]

Many of these are opinions. When you said that tubes are better than solid state, that too is an opinion. When discussing these things, it'll always depend on the person.

[Grim Fandango]

It is subjective. What might feel good to you might not feel good to someone else.

I also really like Topre. There are a few things I like about how they feel. They are light (excluding 55g), the landing feels nice when you bottom out, they produce a pleasant sound when typing, and most of all I like the tactile feedback that is somehow distinct yet smooth.

[dante]

Topre is good but I wouldn't want it to be the last keyboard I ever typed on.

If some of my favorite membrane sheet keyboards had more than 2kro I'd probably never touch Topre.

[Hypersphere]

I started out using an IBM Model M. More recently, I discovered the Model F and found the capacitive buckling springs even better than the membrane buckling springs in the Model M. More recently still, I discovered Topre switches, My daily drive at work is now a HHKB Pro 2, and my daily driver at home is a Realforce 87u 55g.

I've also tried just about every Cherry mx switch, NMB Hi-Tek blacks and whites, and many varieties of Alps. None of these was as satisfying to me as buckling springs or Topres.

I have tried to analyze why I like buckling springs and Topres so much. I think it has to do with the force curve of these switches. The way I type is to bottom out on every keyststroke. With buckling springs and Topres, there is a definite yet smooth tactile bump at the actuation point and a natural follow-through to the bottom without increased resistance. This is especially well executed with the Topre switches, which to me feel like weighted piano keys on a real piano keyboard.

Recently, I tried Cherry mx Clear switches and didn't like them at all. I think the reason is twofold: the tactile bump feels gritty rather than smooth, and rather than a low-resistance follow through to the bottom, there is a sharply increasing force that resists bottoming out. Some people like this effect, as it purportedly promotes touch typing by preventing bottoming out, but for me, it feels like I am fighting against the switch instead of it doing my bidding.

[esoomenona]

I started out using an IBM Model M. More recently, I discovered the Model F and found the capacitive buckling springs even better than the membrane buckling springs in the Model M. More recently still, I discovered Topre switches, My daily drive at work is now a HHKB Pro 2, and my daily driver at home is a Realforce 87u 55g.

I've also tried just about every Cherry mx switch, NMB Hi-Tek blacks and whites, and many varieties of Alps. None of these was as satisfying to me as buckling springs or Topres.

I have tried to analyze why I like buckling springs and Topres so much. I think it has to do with the force curve of these switches. The way I type is to bottom out on every keyststroke. With buckling springs and Topres, there is a definite yet smooth tactile bump at the actuation point and a natural follow-through to the bottom without increased resistance. This is especially well executed with the Topre switches, which to me feel like weighted piano keys on a real piano keyboard.

Recently, I tried Cherry mx Clear switches and didn't like them at all. I think the reason is twofold: the tactile bump feels gritty rather than smooth, and rather than a low-resistance follow through to the bottom, there is a sharply increasing force that resists bottoming out. Some people like this effect, as it purportedly promotes touch typing by preventing bottoming out, but for me, it feels like I am fighting against the switch instead of it doing my bidding.

I like this post. And I can say I agree. I never really knew what the difference was, as I didn't care to try to justify my reason for liking Topre more than MX like so many people around here feel they need to do. Thus, I never truly paid attention. I just knew it felt better to me.

But your post makes sense. I type in the same way, bottoming out. People try to say that Ergo Clears are the closest to Topre, but that's only with that slight tactility. The bottom of it feels nothing alike. You can always get the tactile bump smoother, but doing so removes some of the tactility by reducing the friction with lubing. Same thing with comparing MX Greens to BS. It doesn't really compare.

There is just something about Topre and BS that feels really great, and none of the MX switches or mods to them can really come close.

[davkol]

Touch typing has nothing to do with bottoming out.

If you like bottoming out, enjoy it and pray the impacts won't have an aftermath (hint: joints).

[Lurch]

"oneness with cup rubber"

[eth0s]

Topre is the way.  The way is life.  Life is the Buddha.  The Buddha is enlightenment.  Enlightenment is Topre.

[zennasyndroxx]

what you need next is topre mx sliders. ;3

[esoomenona]

what you need next is topre mx sliders. ;3

I'm actually happy without those. There are just too many options with MX.... It's tiring to have so many options. Which is another reason why I like BS and Topre.

[tp4tissue]

what you need next is topre mx sliders. ;3

I'm actually happy without those. There are just too many options with MX.... It's tiring to have so many options. Which is another reason why I like BS and Topre.

Switchtalk is irrelevant unless it pertains to the Egdx..


Unless you own a uTron,  whatever rectangular topre you possess is still sux0rz.

[tribade]

I don't know but sometimes I feel the same way.  You just want to have something to type just for the excuse to use it.  Now I feel the same way about MX blacks.  I don't know why but there's something really special about that smooth linear action for me as well.

[zennasyndroxx]

what you need next is topre mx sliders. ;3

I'm actually happy without those. There are just too many options with MX.... It's tiring to have so many options. Which is another reason why I like BS and Topre.

If you're getting something like Type Heaven, it's a pain in the ass for not having them if you got good PBT mx caps.

Or, at least you can use any russian set on Topres so you can cyka blyat all the way.

For me, getting Topre MX sliders is essential since we've good PBT sets out there like BSP imstos, can't forget GMK DS ABS as well.

[Findecanor]

Topre are super-smooooth and steady and the Realforce line has very good build quality and materials, including very nice PBT keycaps.
I find it amazing that the longer keys that take stabilisers on other keyboards don't need additional stabilisers on Topre Realforce keyboards - because they key switches already have the stabilisers inside.

The force curve is not for me, though. I want more tactile feedback, and I don't like bottoming out. The Topre switches at 55g are too heavy and the 45g switches are not tactile enough. When I go from Topre to a decade-old Key Tronic OEM keyboard (the CHEAP one, not the Ergo Force), I almost prefer the Key Tronic actually. My preference is lubricated Cherry MX Clear.

If only Cherry MX Clears were lubed and sticker-modified from the factory, and always came with highly-textured Cherry-profile thick PBT caps, then they would start to approach the feel of quality that you get from using a Topre Realforce keyboard.

[esoomenona]

The force curve is not for me, though. I want more tactile feedback, and I don't like bottoming out. The Topre switches at 55g are too heavy and the 45g switches are not tactile enough. When I go from Topre to a decade-old Key Tronic OEM keyboard (the CHEAP one, not the Ergo Force), I almost prefer the Key Tronic actually. My preference is lubricated Cherry MX Clear.

Did you try the 45g on a HHKB or a Realforce? IMO, 45g RFs are mushy feeling. 45g HHKB feels completely different. More tactile and snappy. 55g RF is nice. Not as noisy as HHKB. 55g HHKB is great though.

[davkol]

If only Cherry MX Clears were lubed and sticker-modified from the factory, and always came with highly-textured Cherry-profile thick PBT caps, then they would start to approach the feel of quality that you get from using a Topre Realforce keyboard.

I got some brand new clears last year and they had lubed stems out of the box.

G80-*LQC*-2 (thick POM) would be my go-to keyboard, if I had to get a new stock one.

[Folio]

I was the same exact way when I bought my first Topre (RF 45g). I thought this was going to be the last board I ever bought because it felt so amazing and different from a regular mech board. I was wrong. I chalked up to hype about the boom in Cherry MX Clears lately and got myself a WASD TKL with all clears. THIS is now my favorite switch type. I now type on an ErgoDox with clears.

I was in a switch tester "tour" that Nubbinator coordinated and found Cherry MX Whites are very nice switches too, but they are rare in terms of manufacturers stocking them in their products. Those or some Cherry Greens will be my next switch. I like it heavy.

[Polymer]

Did you try the 45g on a HHKB or a Realforce? IMO, 45g RFs are mushy feeling. 45g HHKB feels completely different. More tactile and snappy. 55g RF is nice. Not as noisy as HHKB. 55g HHKB is great though.

Yeah...HHKB and the 660c are a bit more snappy...when I first got a RF after using a HHKB I thought it was EXTREMELY mushy (part of it is I got a variable) almost annoying...but after awhile you appreciate them for their differences...

[Folio]

Yeah...HHKB and the 660c are a bit more snappy...when I first got a RF after using a HHKB I thought it was EXTREMELY mushy (part of it is I got a variable) almost annoying...but after awhile you appreciate them for their differences...

You know, I never typed on a HHKB ever and I've always been super curious. I've always wanted one, but the 45g is what turns me away. I know I can do the 55g rubber cup mod, but idk. How does it feel "different"?

[Polymer]

Yeah...HHKB and the 660c are a bit more snappy...when I first got a RF after using a HHKB I thought it was EXTREMELY mushy (part of it is I got a variable) almost annoying...but after awhile you appreciate them for their differences...

You know, I never typed on a HHKB ever and I've always been super curious. I've always wanted one, but the 45g is what turns me away. I know I can do the 55g rubber cup mod, but idk. How does it feel "different"?

They're slightly stiffer (seems like) than the RF 45g but definitely NOT the same as RF 55g.   There is some variance in the stiffness for each key but lets just assume RF is 45g (it doesn't matter but lets just say) then I'd say something like the HHKB is 48g. 

I don't actually think the rubber is different..there is something that is making it feel that way. 

The 660c I've seen much bigger variances in how they feel..anywhere from in between the RF and HHKB to close to RF55g..

[Folio]

Yeah...HHKB and the 660c are a bit more snappy...when I first got a RF after using a HHKB I thought it was EXTREMELY mushy (part of it is I got a variable) almost annoying...but after awhile you appreciate them for their differences...

You know, I never typed on a HHKB ever and I've always been super curious. I've always wanted one, but the 45g is what turns me away. I know I can do the 55g rubber cup mod, but idk. How does it feel "different"?

They're slightly stiffer (seems like) than the RF 45g but definitely NOT the same as RF 55g.   There is some variance in the stiffness for each key but lets just assume RF is 45g (it doesn't matter but lets just say) then I'd say something like the HHKB is 48g. 

I don't actually think the rubber is different..there is something that is making it feel that way. 

The 660c I've seen much bigger variances in how they feel..anywhere from in between the RF and HHKB to close to RF55g..

I think I'll just wait for the next key con near chicago lol. I don't feel like spending another $300 on a kb. Let the topre enthusiasts try to convince me otherwise, but I'm happy with my clears

[pbtforever]

Author Topic: Why is topre so good?

The PBT keys!  Novatouch should have spent the extra $10 and shipped with them.

[Hypersphere]

My favorite keycap material is PBT, but I don't fault CM for the stock ABS caps on the Novatouch. It seems that the main point of the mx-compatible stems is to enable people to put their own choice of keycaps on the board. The universe of mx-compatible keycaps is enormous and includes various materials, printing methods, and profiles.

As to why Topre switches feel good to type on, I think it largely comes down to the force-displacement curve. I have been taking a good look at this phenomenon, and I plan to do a detailed post on it in a separate thread that will also deal with two other questions: (1) why people who like Topre might also like buckling springs, and (2) why both Topre and buckling springs are different in typing feel from any Cherry mx switch.

[dgreekstallion]

This thread is relevant to my interests.

[Polymer]

As to why Topre switches feel good to type on, I think it largely comes down to the force-displacement curve. I have been taking a good look at this phenomenon, and I plan to do a detailed post on it in a separate thread that will also deal with two other questions: (1) why people who like Topre might also like buckling springs, and (2) why both Topre and buckling springs are different in typing feel from any Cherry mx switch.

I don't think they feel anything alike to be honest....There will be a drop off like Topre they feel nothing alike IMO....I mean really, the Topre force curve is like any other rubber dome keyboard...The difference being the stability, solidness and responsiveness...but what makes it go up and down is the rubber dome. 

[Hypersphere]

I need to do more research on the force-displacement curves, but I think the Topre rubber dome undergoes a smooth, yet catastrophic, collapse near the actuation point similar to the catastrophic collapse of the buckling spring in IBM capacitive and membrane buckling spring switches.

In contrast, I think that some other rubber dome and membrane switches might not undergo a catastrophic collapse, but instead act alike a linear rubber spring.

With Topre and buckling spring switches, there is a decrease in force after the actuation point before the force increases again as the displacement continues toward the bottom of the keystroke. With Cherry switches, there is no decrease in force after the actuation point; instead the force increases after the actuation point.

In my case at least, I think the reason I prefer both IBM buckling springs (both capacitive and membrane) and Topre is that the force curves have the similar feature of reflecting a collapse (rubber dome or buckling spring) at the actuation point accompanied by a decrease in force before the force rises again. And the reason I do not like any of the Cherry mx switches as much as Topre or IBM buckling spring is that all Cherry mx switches have an increasing force from actuation throughout the remainder of the downward displacement.

After I have done more homework on this, I will follow up with some direct comparisons of force-displacement curves of the various switches.

[dgreekstallion]

I need to do more research on the force-displacement curves, but I think the Topre rubber dome undergoes a smooth, yet catastrophic, collapse near the actuation point similar to the catastrophic collapse of the buckling spring in IBM capacitive and membrane buckling spring switches.

In contrast, I think that some other rubber dome and membrane switches might not undergo a catastrophic collapse, but instead act alike a linear rubber spring.

With Topre and buckling spring switches, there is a decrease in force after the actuation point before the force increases again as the displacement continues toward the bottom of the keystroke. With Cherry switches, there is no decrease in force after the actuation point; instead the force increases after the actuation point.

In my case at least, I think the reason I prefer both IBM buckling springs (both capacitive and membrane) and Topre is that the force curves have the similar feature of reflecting a collapse (rubber dome or buckling spring) at the actuation point accompanied by a decrease in force before the force rises again. And the reason I do not like any of the Cherry mx switches as much as Topre or IBM buckling spring is that all Cherry mx switches have an increasing force from actuation throughout the remainder of the downward displacement.

After I have done more homework on this, I will follow up with some direct comparisons of force-displacement curves of the various switches.

I feel the same way. Tested out a board with Cherry red switches... Eventually I went to a Model F 122 and haven't looked back since... But I am looking for a Topre for work, possibly.

[demik]

You're on the winning team now.

there is only one team, and that's the topre team. everybody else is an amateur.

[Polymer]

I need to do more research on the force-displacement curves, but I think the Topre rubber dome undergoes a smooth, yet catastrophic, collapse near the actuation point similar to the catastrophic collapse of the buckling spring in IBM capacitive and membrane buckling spring switches.

In contrast, I think that some other rubber dome and membrane switches might not undergo a catastrophic collapse, but instead act alike a linear rubber spring.

With Topre and buckling spring switches, there is a decrease in force after the actuation point before the force increases again as the displacement continues toward the bottom of the keystroke. With Cherry switches, there is no decrease in force after the actuation point; instead the force increases after the actuation point.

In my case at least, I think the reason I prefer both IBM buckling springs (both capacitive and membrane) and Topre is that the force curves have the similar feature of reflecting a collapse (rubber dome or buckling spring) at the actuation point accompanied by a decrease in force before the force rises again. And the reason I do not like any of the Cherry mx switches as much as Topre or IBM buckling spring is that all Cherry mx switches have an increasing force from actuation throughout the remainder of the downward displacement.

Rubber domes collapse...they're not linear...

Buckling springs buckle down (collapse) at actuation (that is what actuates it) and the force required goes UP from there..not down...Except for the tactile point and actuation being the same, this is actually very similar to Cherry. 
With Cherry switches, blues, brown, clears..they have a tactile point which causes some collapse and then they actuate...After the force drops it requires slightly more force to keep going...
Topre is actually similar..the max force is BEFORE the actuation point which happens while the dome collapses and continues to drop after that...

If anything, buckling spring is similar to Cherry tactiles....Very similar to blues and browns...