Amazonian Spooks in the Clouds...(Sounds insane, right?)

[NeedAFix]

From one of the activist groups I get e-mails from, I have to rethink my amazon membership now and I suggest all of you to do the same:

"We put a Halloween color on the huge billboard that's going up next to Amazon headquarters in Seattle -- but the "spooks" that just climbed onto Amazon's cloud are all too real. We're not talking Casper the Friendly Ghost here. The CIA has given a $600 million contract to Amazon for cloud services.

With your help, this 48-foot-wide billboard will be the start of a big campaign to inform the public and insist on accountability from the world's largest online retailer. We need to get to $9,500 to pay for this huge billboard next to the Amazon headquarters for a full month. And we need to reach the $20,000 goal so this campaign can move into high gear with strong media outreach -- demanding full disclosure about the terms of the deal between the CIA and Amazon Web Services.

Amazon now has the means, motive and opportunity to provide its vast trove of customer information to the Central Intelligence Agency. "We look forward to a successful relationship with the CIA," Amazon says. Well, we look forward to pushing back. And you can lend a hand right now. We're putting the enormous billboard where thousands of Amazon employees will see it. And we want to follow up with a big media push so millions of people will learn about what's at stake. Our billboard will launch an international media campaign, led by RootsAction and our ExposeFacts partner. We insist on raising "the $600 million question: What's the CIA doing on Amazon’s cloud?"

Amazon's "cloud computing" for the CIA should concern every Amazon customer -- and anyone else who cares about privacy and civil liberties. The Amazon-CIA deal has cranked up the basis for massive abuse. Amazon’s business model depends on accumulating and analyzing huge quantities of personal data. Meanwhile, the CIA depends on gathering and analyzing data to keep tabs on the world and serve U.S. military interventions overseas. During the last dozen years, the CIA has conducted ongoing drone strikes and covert lethal missions in many countries.
Meanwhile, U.S. agencies like the CIA and NSA have flattened many previous obstacles to Big Brother behavior. We must fight back! After donating to this campaign, please forward this message to your friends.

Thank you!--- The RootsAction team

Background:
>  Bloomberg News: Amazon Wins Ruling for $600 Million CIA Cloud Contract
>  Washington Post: What Jeff Bezos Has to Say About Amazon's CIA Contract
>  InformationWeek: Amazon Again Beats IBM for CIA Cloud Contract"

[SpAmRaY]

So you're saying don't order galvanized pipe, nails and gun powder all in the same order from Amazon, anymore?

[NeedAFix]

So you're saying don't order galvanized pipe, nails and gun powder all in the same order from Amazon, anymore?

Yeah, that would probably not be a wise purchase anymore. Heh.
I'm probably going to carefully consider closing my account.

[tp4tissue]

Hahahhahahahahaah


My thought on big government..  it's an inevitability..

Just as we give up many rights to live as a society..

For a utopia, surely we give up nearly all rights..


I should probably order a copy of breaking-bad blurays along with my bags of rust, aluminum powder, and magnesium strips. 

[SpAmRaY]

I always assumed the CIA had their own computing power, it is funny they would need or want to use Amazon's.  But I get it IF Amazon's 'accidentally' shares ALL their customers data with big brother.

[tp4tissue]

I always assumed the CIA had their own computing power, it is funny they would need or want to use Amazon's.  But I get it IF Amazon's 'accidentally' shares ALL their customers data with big brother.

I trust big brother..

[swill]

Not sure why a company offering the same service to the CIA as it does to everyone else is any reason to avoid their service.  The fact of the matter is at the scale of AWS, they can offer IaaS more cost effectively than companies can operate their own data centers.

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

[tp4tissue]

Not sure why a company offering the same service to the CIA as it does to everyone else is any reason to avoid their service.  The fact of the matter is at the scale of AWS, they can offer IaaS more cost effectively than companies can operate their own data centers.

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

Just cuz ur not embarrassed about buying a butt load of dildos, doesn't mean other people arn't.

[swill]

Not sure why a company offering the same service to the CIA as it does to everyone else is any reason to avoid their service.  The fact of the matter is at the scale of AWS, they can offer IaaS more cost effectively than companies can operate their own data centers.

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

Just cuz ur not embarrassed about buying a butt load of dildos, doesn't mean other people arn't.

How is this relevant? 

[tp4tissue]

Not sure why a company offering the same service to the CIA as it does to everyone else is any reason to avoid their service.  The fact of the matter is at the scale of AWS, they can offer IaaS more cost effectively than companies can operate their own data centers.

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

Just cuz ur not embarrassed about buying a butt load of dildos, doesn't mean other people arn't.

How is this relevant? 

ur question was,,  " i don't understand the paranoia"

I answered your question.. 

[swill]

Not sure why a company offering the same service to the CIA as it does to everyone else is any reason to avoid their service.  The fact of the matter is at the scale of AWS, they can offer IaaS more cost effectively than companies can operate their own data centers.

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

Just cuz ur not embarrassed about buying a butt load of dildos, doesn't mean other people arn't.

How is this relevant? 

ur question was,,  " i don't understand the paranoia"

I answered your question..

Do you even know what AWS is?  It has nothing to do with an Amazon store and what you purchase. Are you just trolling as usual?

[tp4tissue]

Not sure why a company offering the same service to the CIA as it does to everyone else is any reason to avoid their service.  The fact of the matter is at the scale of AWS, they can offer IaaS more cost effectively than companies can operate their own data centers.

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

Just cuz ur not embarrassed about buying a butt load of dildos, doesn't mean other people arn't.

How is this relevant? 

ur question was,,  " i don't understand the paranoia"

I answered your question..

Do you even know what AWS is?  It has nothing to do with an Amazon store and what you purchase. Are you just trolling as usual?

Don't think you quite understand how exploits are found..  you need access to the system..

Amazon is giving that up to the CIA..  which is why people are worried..

Not only that, because they're now wallet buddies...  who pays better  American government along with ties to influential regulators,  vs you and I who return over 20 packages a year...

[swill]

Not sure why a company offering the same service to the CIA as it does to everyone else is any reason to avoid their service.  The fact of the matter is at the scale of AWS, they can offer IaaS more cost effectively than companies can operate their own data centers.

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

Just cuz ur not embarrassed about buying a butt load of dildos, doesn't mean other people arn't.

How is this relevant? 

ur question was,,  " i don't understand the paranoia"

I answered your question..

Do you even know what AWS is?  It has nothing to do with an Amazon store and what you purchase. Are you just trolling as usual?

Don't think you quite understand how exploits are found..  you need access to the system..

Amazon is giving that up to the CIA..  which is why people are worried..

Not only that, because they're now wallet buddies...  who pays better  American government along with ties to influential regulators,  vs you and I who return over 20 packages a year...

I know EXACTY how this works. I build IaaS cloud services like AWS for a living. We recently launched an equivalent (with less gestures) cloud in Canada.  I am currently setting up a cloud to serve central and south america.

AWS is a multi tenant cloud, it is designed to segregate tenant information.

You are basically saying that if I sign up for an AWS account I have a better chance of hacking the CIAs servers because the same system serves both VMs. That is just not the case.

[iri]

[tp4tissue]

Not sure why a company offering the same service to the CIA as it does to everyone else is any reason to avoid their service.  The fact of the matter is at the scale of AWS, they can offer IaaS more cost effectively than companies can operate their own data centers.

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

Just cuz ur not embarrassed about buying a butt load of dildos, doesn't mean other people arn't.

How is this relevant? 

ur question was,,  " i don't understand the paranoia"

I answered your question..

Do you even know what AWS is?  It has nothing to do with an Amazon store and what you purchase. Are you just trolling as usual?

Don't think you quite understand how exploits are found..  you need access to the system..

Amazon is giving that up to the CIA..  which is why people are worried..

Not only that, because they're now wallet buddies...  who pays better  American government along with ties to influential regulators,  vs you and I who return over 20 packages a year...

I know EXACTY how this works. I build IaaS cloud services like AWS for a living. We recently launched an equivalent (with less gestures) cloud in Canada.  I am currently setting up a cloud to serve central and south america.

AWS is a multi tenant cloud, it is designed to segregate tenant information.

You are basically saying that if I sign up for an AWS account I have a better chance of hacking the CIAs servers because the same system serves both VMs. That is just not the case.

Not only do you not understand your own job, you don't understand what happens when people exchange money and influence.

[swill]

Not sure why a company offering the same service to the CIA as it does to everyone else is any reason to avoid their service.  The fact of the matter is at the scale of AWS, they can offer IaaS more cost effectively than companies can operate their own data centers.

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

Just cuz ur not embarrassed about buying a butt load of dildos, doesn't mean other people arn't.

How is this relevant? 

ur question was,,  " i don't understand the paranoia"

I answered your question..

Do you even know what AWS is?  It has nothing to do with an Amazon store and what you purchase. Are you just trolling as usual?

Don't think you quite understand how exploits are found..  you need access to the system..

Amazon is giving that up to the CIA..  which is why people are worried..

Not only that, because they're now wallet buddies...  who pays better  American government along with ties to influential regulators,  vs you and I who return over 20 packages a year...

I know EXACTY how this works. I build IaaS cloud services like AWS for a living. We recently launched an equivalent (with less gestures) cloud in Canada.  I am currently setting up a cloud to serve central and south america.

AWS is a multi tenant cloud, it is designed to segregate tenant information.

You are basically saying that if I sign up for an AWS account I have a better chance of hacking the CIAs servers because the same system serves both VMs. That is just not the case.

Not only do you not understand your own job, you don't understand what happens when people exchange money and influence.

Whatever. Your a troll. We get it.

[jackalope]

I should probably order a copy of breaking-bad blurays along with my bags of rust, aluminum powder, and magnesium strips. 

Any one that orders that probably needs to be looked into.
cause you can make your own rust and aluminum powder and magnesium ribbon can be found in any high school or college science lab, lol, just saying.

[tbc]

I don't understand the paranoia.

people have boring, unfulfilling lives.  complaining is just a hobby.  nothing more complex than that.

ps if the cia was planning on using this for secret data, they wouldn't publish the location of their servers....think about it....

[tp4tissue]

Not sure why a company offering the same service to the CIA as it does to everyone else is any reason to avoid their service.  The fact of the matter is at the scale of AWS, they can offer IaaS more cost effectively than companies can operate their own data centers.

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

Just cuz ur not embarrassed about buying a butt load of dildos, doesn't mean other people arn't.

How is this relevant? 

ur question was,,  " i don't understand the paranoia"

I answered your question..

Do you even know what AWS is?  It has nothing to do with an Amazon store and what you purchase. Are you just trolling as usual?

Don't think you quite understand how exploits are found..  you need access to the system..

Amazon is giving that up to the CIA..  which is why people are worried..

Not only that, because they're now wallet buddies...  who pays better  American government along with ties to influential regulators,  vs you and I who return over 20 packages a year...

I know EXACTY how this works. I build IaaS cloud services like AWS for a living. We recently launched an equivalent (with less gestures) cloud in Canada.  I am currently setting up a cloud to serve central and south america.

AWS is a multi tenant cloud, it is designed to segregate tenant information.

You are basically saying that if I sign up for an AWS account I have a better chance of hacking the CIAs servers because the same system serves both VMs. That is just not the case.

Not only do you not understand your own job, you don't understand what happens when people exchange money and influence.

Whatever. Your a troll. We get it.

You think inside the box, submerged under merky waters, at the bottom of a well..

Tp4's just trying to help..

[jackalope]

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

people have boring, unfulfilling lives.  complaining is just a hobby.  nothing more complex than that.

IMO the problem is not with what people are putting in the cloud or if their lives are boring and their just looking for an outlet of frustration, but the real problem is the fact that we as citizens should expect privacy from each other and from our goverment if we choose, and the tired old response of what you do you have to hide is harmful and shows the state of privacy in this country, and many others.  We as people should not be ok with goverment snooping or mass surveillance on any level, but in an age when it's acceptable to trade security, and freedom for safetly most people blindly go along with whatever excuse they are spoon fed.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin

And i do agree that if they did this with the intent of spying on people they wouldn't make it public knowledge,  besides we already know they have their hooks in every major tech company.

[tp4tissue]

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

people have boring, unfulfilling lives.  complaining is just a hobby.  nothing more complex than that.

IMO the problem is not with what people are putting in the cloud or if their lives are boring and their just looking for an outlet of frustration, but the real problem is the fact that we as citizens should expect privacy from each other and from our goverment if we choose, and the tired old response of what you do you have to hide is harmful and shows the state of privacy in this country, and many others.  We as people should not be ok with goverment snooping or mass surveillance on any level, but in an age when it's acceptable to trade security, and freedom for safetly most people blindly go along with whatever excuse they are spoon fed.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin

And i do agree that if they did this with the intent of spying on people they wouldn't make it public knowledge,  besides we already know they have their hooks in every major tech company.

Privacy, isolation, and anonymity are components of competitive advantage and strategy on part of an individual...

There's no need to talk about Rights, because ultimately they're flexible, and you get away with as much as is not discovered..

What's important is to carefully execute what's in your power regardless of the rules imposed.. 


For example_

If Putin wanted to keep a harem of sex slaves.. no one would be the wiser, nor could they do anything about it even if they knew..

With POWER is the right...    the rest is just what those in power tell us to keep us docile..

[tbc]

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

people have boring, unfulfilling lives.  complaining is just a hobby.  nothing more complex than that.

IMO the problem is not with what people are putting in the cloud or if their lives are boring and their just looking for an outlet of frustration, but the real problem is the fact that we as citizens should expect privacy from each other and from our goverment if we choose, and the tired old response of what you do you have to hide is harmful and shows the state of privacy in this country, and many others.  We as people should not be ok with goverment snooping or mass surveillance on any level, but in an age when it's acceptable to trade security, and freedom for safetly most people blindly go along with whatever excuse they are spoon fed.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin

And i do agree that if they did this with the intent of spying on people they wouldn't make it public knowledge,  besides we already know they have their hooks in every major tech company.

just because someone is quoted doesn't make them automatically correct....

not to mention the dangerous implications that notion encourages.

the world is a very different place than when mr.franklin was around.  his 'advice' is worthless.

[jackalope]

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

people have boring, unfulfilling lives.  complaining is just a hobby.  nothing more complex than that.

IMO the problem is not with what people are putting in the cloud or if their lives are boring and their just looking for an outlet of frustration, but the real problem is the fact that we as citizens should expect privacy from each other and from our goverment if we choose, and the tired old response of what you do you have to hide is harmful and shows the state of privacy in this country, and many others.  We as people should not be ok with goverment snooping or mass surveillance on any level, but in an age when it's acceptable to trade security, and freedom for safetly most people blindly go along with whatever excuse they are spoon fed.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin

And i do agree that if they did this with the intent of spying on people they wouldn't make it public knowledge,  besides we already know they have their hooks in every major tech company.

just because someone is quoted doesn't make them automatically correct....

not to mention the dangerous implications that notion encourages.

the world is a very different place than when mr.franklin was around.  his 'advice' is worthless.

Indeed the world is a very different place, the majority of people no longer care about privacy or even personal freedoms. I am confused though on how that quote has dangerous implications, unless read out of context.  I would have to argue though that as one of the founding fathers who's opinions helped to shape our goverment that his views on privacy and personal liberties are far from worthless. 

[swill]

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

people have boring, unfulfilling lives.  complaining is just a hobby.  nothing more complex than that.

IMO the problem is not with what people are putting in the cloud or if their lives are boring and their just looking for an outlet of frustration, but the real problem is the fact that we as citizens should expect privacy from each other and from our goverment if we choose, and the tired old response of what you do you have to hide is harmful and shows the state of privacy in this country, and many others.  We as people should not be ok with goverment snooping or mass surveillance on any level, but in an age when it's acceptable to trade security, and freedom for safetly most people blindly go along with whatever excuse they are spoon fed.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin

And i do agree that if they did this with the intent of spying on people they wouldn't make it public knowledge,  besides we already know they have their hooks in every major tech company.

I agree with you, but just because the CIA is using AWSs services does not mean that they have access to anything but their own servers.  There is no reason to believe that anyone's privacy is being compromised. 

[JackMills]

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

people have boring, unfulfilling lives.  complaining is just a hobby.  nothing more complex than that.

IMO the problem is not with what people are putting in the cloud or if their lives are boring and their just looking for an outlet of frustration, but the real problem is the fact that we as citizens should expect privacy from each other and from our goverment if we choose, and the tired old response of what you do you have to hide is harmful and shows the state of privacy in this country, and many others.  We as people should not be ok with goverment snooping or mass surveillance on any level, but in an age when it's acceptable to trade security, and freedom for safetly most people blindly go along with whatever excuse they are spoon fed.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin

And i do agree that if they did this with the intent of spying on people they wouldn't make it public knowledge,  besides we already know they have their hooks in every major tech company.

I agree with you, but just because the CIA is using AWSs services does not mean that they have access to anything but their own servers.  There is no reason to believe that anyone's privacy is being compromised.

Of course this doesn't mean that, but CIA has a bad reputation concerning privacy. I guess that's why such a believe spreads so easily.

[swill]

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

people have boring, unfulfilling lives.  complaining is just a hobby.  nothing more complex than that.

IMO the problem is not with what people are putting in the cloud or if their lives are boring and their just looking for an outlet of frustration, but the real problem is the fact that we as citizens should expect privacy from each other and from our goverment if we choose, and the tired old response of what you do you have to hide is harmful and shows the state of privacy in this country, and many others.  We as people should not be ok with goverment snooping or mass surveillance on any level, but in an age when it's acceptable to trade security, and freedom for safetly most people blindly go along with whatever excuse they are spoon fed.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin

And i do agree that if they did this with the intent of spying on people they wouldn't make it public knowledge,  besides we already know they have their hooks in every major tech company.

I agree with you, but just because the CIA is using AWSs services does not mean that they have access to anything but their own servers.  There is no reason to believe that anyone's privacy is being compromised.

Of course this doesn't mean that, but CIA has a bad reputation concerning privacy. I guess that's why such a believe spreads so easily.

Ya. Fair enough. Just seem stupid to me that people are like "gotta cancel my AWS account now because the CIA is also an AWS customer" and implying that all of a sudden there is a privacy risk because of it.

[JackMills]

Ya. Fair enough. Just seem stupid to me that people are like "gotta cancel my AWS account now because the CIA is also an AWS customer" and implying that all of a sudden there is a privacy risk because of it.

It could be because they don't understand the technical features of cloud services. Or because of a great dislike so that they don't want to be associated with companies willing to provide the CIA.
Or maybe they do have stuff that has to remain hidden, but my guess would be on number one.

[swill]

Ya. Fair enough. Just seem stupid to me that people are like "gotta cancel my AWS account now because the CIA is also an AWS customer" and implying that all of a sudden there is a privacy risk because of it.

It could be because they don't understand the technical features of cloud services. Or because of a great dislike so that they don't want to be associated with companies willing to provide the CIA.
Or maybe they do have stuff that has to remain hidden, but my guess would be on number one.

Ya, that's what I think too. People don't actually know how cloud services work, they just think that amazon sells stuff.

[jackalope]

What the hell are you putting on AWS that is so important to keep private anyway?  Most of the time the stuff you put up there is designed to be served publicly anyway.

I don't understand the paranoia.

people have boring, unfulfilling lives.  complaining is just a hobby.  nothing more complex than that.

IMO the problem is not with what people are putting in the cloud or if their lives are boring and their just looking for an outlet of frustration, but the real problem is the fact that we as citizens should expect privacy from each other and from our goverment if we choose, and the tired old response of what you do you have to hide is harmful and shows the state of privacy in this country, and many others.  We as people should not be ok with goverment snooping or mass surveillance on any level, but in an age when it's acceptable to trade security, and freedom for safetly most people blindly go along with whatever excuse they are spoon fed.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin

And i do agree that if they did this with the intent of spying on people they wouldn't make it public knowledge,  besides we already know they have their hooks in every major tech company.

I agree with you, but just because the CIA is using AWSs services does not mean that they have access to anything but their own servers.  There is no reason to believe that anyone's privacy is being compromised. 

I didn't mean to imply that i believed that the CIA was joining AWS for the purpose of spying on people, I was just commenting on the opinions expressed about privacy and the willingness to accept the lack thereof.

[JackMills]

Ya. Fair enough. Just seem stupid to me that people are like "gotta cancel my AWS account now because the CIA is also an AWS customer" and implying that all of a sudden there is a privacy risk because of it.

It could be because they don't understand the technical features of cloud services. Or because of a great dislike so that they don't want to be associated with companies willing to provide the CIA.
Or maybe they do have stuff that has to remain hidden, but my guess would be on number one.

Ya, that's what I think too. People don't actually know how cloud services work, they just think that amazon sells stuff.

I guess it's like like explaining to someone, that it's not because you rent a place in the same building as a known criminal ,that you'll get robbed.

Most of them will think otherwise even if you say there are steel-reinforced concrete walls, floors and ceilings, vault doors, video surveillance etc. If the criminal is notorious enough they'll want to move out.

[NeedAFix]

Ya. Fair enough. Just seem stupid to me that people are like "gotta cancel my AWS account now because the CIA is also an AWS customer" and implying that all of a sudden there is a privacy risk because of it.

It could be because they don't understand the technical features of cloud services. Or because of a great dislike so that they don't want to be associated with companies willing to provide the CIA.
Or maybe they do have stuff that has to remain hidden, but my guess would be on number one.

Second option for me.

[paicrai]

just get like 7 skeletons