[Help] Topre Issue - Clicking springs

[Moistgun]

To all my topre-lovers and tinker brothers,

I recently opened up my HHKB to lube it with 103/205 mix, and silence it with hyperspheres.  I never once removed or touched any of the domes or the springs.

After popping it back together, I started to notice this annoying noise it was making.

When I type lightly on my HHKB, there is no sound, no issue. 

But if I fully depress a key, at the second it starts its upstroke, it makes this clicking sound.

Its like a ticking noise, or like a piece of tape being pulled off of skin or from a piece of paper.

Here is a video of the sound its making.
First one is a problem switch, second is all bueno.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5a5nl4qieeustcv/MOV_0212.mp4?dl=0

I have fudged with it enough to tell it's isolated at the springs and the domes.

If I take a dome and spring off the pcb even, and copy the motion on my desk, the good ones are silent and the bad ones replicate the issue.

Does anyone have any experience with this?
Is this normal and i'm neurotic?
Is this not normal and i'm still neurotic?

Is this just a normal variance?
Its very quiet on some switches, very loud on others, and not there on the remainder. 

i, o, e, 1, 7, 8, h, j, ', c, m, ., / are all making the noise.

And N and L are really freaking loud. like close to mx blues.

[klennkellon]

I think one of the springs may have become just sliiightly out of place.

[Moistgun]

I think one of the springs may have become just sliiightly out of place.

I can Crack it open tomorrow and mess around with it.  Just opening it and rejiggering the springs?

[Moistgun]

Attempted to reset the springs in those problem areas, no dice. 

[kekman]

looks like your topre springs turned into buckling springs 

but in all seriousness, try reverting the mod to isolate the issue further. if the issue persists then you did something wrong on the initial mod. if it's gone then i would assume that the stems are the issue

[[Lewynlight]]

if you remove the hypersphere on those problematic areas, does the sound still exist?

[Moistgun]

To reply to both of you ^

In the video I linked, you can see the issue is happening when I press down on an exposed dome with a spring underneath it.

This issue shows up regardless of the case, stems, hyperspheres, or lube.

[tp4tissue]

errrmmm...  wouldn't it be easier, to just take the keyboard, turn it up side down, and shake vigorously.

[OfTheWild]

interesting. I have something similar with my FC660C spacebar. I just assumed that it had something sticky in there. I havent pulled it apart to see what was going on.

[Moistgun]

errrmmm...  wouldn't it be easier, to just take the keyboard, turn it up side down, and shake vigorously.

Tried it! no luck there.
Also called it some pretty vulgar names.

[1391406]

Was this happening before you opened the board, when you first received it?

[Moistgun]

Was this happening before you opened the board, when you first received it?

The issue wasnt there as far as i know. I could just be noticing it now.

[ajx]

Did you peel dome off?
There are two important steps to follow

- Do not peel dome off, alignment would be never close to what you ll get with new HHKB, let the dome glued on the PCB
- Unopened HHKB has tightened screws, i ve noticed when you remove screws, you will never get the same tightening

Even on HHKb Type-S, you will get clicking noise (ping) but its  being acceptable while on opened HHKB i ve seen worse
The main problem i have noticed on HHKB, its inconstant, variable feeling from key to key, i have tried other Topre, Novatouch get proper and constant feeling, Leopold FC660C is my favourite, not a single lack of inconstancy 
Silenced mod will also never get as close as stock HHKb Type-S, you might get a better chance if you dont peel dome off, be really careful when you are going this

PS: when you are referring to some keys having similar noise as MX-Blue, its probably the spring getting stuck against membrane
I had exactly the same on exactly the same keys, i believe its alignment, few millimeters off and you ll get spring getting stuck
There is no solution, if you are trying to sightly align to compensate, the issue will also move on another keys

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46648.0


 

[Moistgun]

Did you peel dome off?
There are two important steps to follow

- Do not peel dome off, alignment would be never close to what you ll get with new HHKB, let the dome glued on the PCB
- Unopened HHKB has tightened screws, i ve noticed when you remove screws, you will never get the same tightening

Even on HHKb Type-S, you will get clicking noise (ping) but its  being acceptable while on opened HHKB i ve seen worse
The main problem i have noticed on HHKB, its inconstant, variable feeling from key to key, i have tried other Topre, Novatouch get proper and constant feeling, Leopold FC660C is my favourite, not a single lack of inconstancy 
Silenced mod will also never get as close as stock HHKb Type-S, you might get a better chance if you dont peel dome off, be really careful when you are going this

PS: when you are referring to some keys having similar noise as MX-Blue, its probably the spring getting stuck against membrane
I had exactly the same on exactly the same keys, i believe its alignment, few millimeters off and you ll get spring getting stuck
There is no solution, if you are trying to sightly align to compensate, the issue will also move on another keys

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46648.0

I didnt peel any domes off until AFTER the issue came up.

[ajx]

I have tried any alignment, these are not good, you will eventually get any kind of clicking issue
It can be also caused by ring itself
My advice
- Get unopened secondhand HHKB (i have sold my silenced HHKB, fixed spacebar grinding with krytox + spacebar PBT for less than 180 eur, some HHKB have been sold for much lower, around 130-160 eur in EU market)
- Remove screw carefully, once done, revert the PCB on floor, remove gently housing case, add rings
- Lift up the housing case with some books

- Put the PCB gently, once done, screw one by one, screw straight into hole, otherwise it may affect the dome

I have experienced some, unopened i got the best results by following these steps
I sent my silenced HHKB to a friend who also made silenced mod, he told me, its way better, no friction, not a single clicking noise
To be honest, maybe few keys still have inconstant feeling but its gone past some weeks of use
Otherwise, it could be the rings that need to be settled in 

[tp4tissue]

OK,  this time I actually watched the video you posted..


Check if there's any residue , like sticky stuff on the spring/ dome

[Moistgun]

OK,  this time I actually watched the video you posted..


Check if there's any residue , like sticky stuff on the spring/ dome

Thanks for watching TP. And if you liked the video, dont forget to hit the subscribe button riiiight here -------->



Anyways, definitely checked for that and can confirm it isn't that causing the problem.

If I had to, I would put my money on the domes and springs aren't perfectly aligned.
I've gotten the issue down to a bit fewer problem keys, but I cant eliminate the issue fully.

The search term "misaligned Topre domes" brings up results that are pretty familiar.

[Peripheral Prophet]

I was reading an article on a blog about this issue..  Same scenario, same pinging sound.. Lemme see if I can dig up the website for you..  Im looking into doing this exact mod myself but im worried about the same thing...

[Peripheral Prophet]

Have you completely reassembled the board and tested with it fully assembled? 

[Moistgun]

Have you completely reassembled the board and tested with it fully assembled?

Yeah, i've taken apart and put the hhkb back together at least 5-6 times at this point.

Since the initial mod.

[MunchkinTheEwok]

Did you position the shiny side of the rings up on top during installation?

[Moistgun]

I have fudged with it enough to tell it's isolated at the springs and the domes.

If I take a dome and spring off the pcb even, and copy the motion on my desk, the good ones are silent and the bad ones replicate the issue.


Regardless of if I have the rings even on or not, it still does it.

[Tactile]

What happens if you have only the spring on the desk & press it with a pencil eraser?

[ajx]

https://vid.me/93mk
Here is mine, i have a slight spring issue with shift and return (the spring stuck on the membrane) while ctrl, tab, right shift look fine although it might sound noisy to you (you could hear the spring), its pretty common on silenced HHKB (i have type-s)

[Peripheral Prophet]

Are you guys having these issues after modding or stock.. non of my keys make any unusual sounds but i have never taken it apart..

[Moistgun]

Are you guys having these issues after modding or stock.. non of my keys make any unusual sounds but i have never taken it apart..

This is definitely a result of modding it

[Peripheral Prophet]

Are you guys having these issues after modding or stock.. non of my keys make any unusual sounds but i have never taken it apart..

This is definitely a result of modding it

Thats crazy bro, you didnt take the rubber domes and springs of the pcb right?  Just removed the sliders and put the rings and lube on right???   Is there any adhesive or material used to interface the rubber with the pcb???  You got me scared to crack mine open lol

[Moistgun]

Are you guys having these issues after modding or stock.. non of my keys make any unusual sounds but i have never taken it apart..

This is definitely a result of modding it

Thats crazy bro, you didnt take the rubber domes and springs of the pcb right?  Just removed the sliders and put the rings and lube on right???   Is there any adhesive or material used to interface the rubber with the pcb???  You got me scared to crack mine open lol

There actually isn't an adhesive keeping the rubber domes to the pcb, just good old factory pressure holding it in place.

But yes, I did separate the two. eventually, accidentally.

[Peripheral Prophet]

Are you guys having these issues after modding or stock.. non of my keys make any unusual sounds but i have never taken it apart..

This is definitely a result of modding it

Thats crazy bro, you didnt take the rubber domes and springs of the pcb right?  Just removed the sliders and put the rings and lube on right???   Is there any adhesive or material used to interface the rubber with the pcb???  You got me scared to crack mine open lol

There actually isn't an adhesive keeping the rubber domes to the pcb, just good old factory pressure holding it in place.

But yes, I did separate the two. eventually, accidentally.

interesting..  Im assuming you tried to remove the spring, or rotate it a little and then reinserting correct?  I dont understand how this could happen...

[Moistgun]

Are you guys having these issues after modding or stock.. non of my keys make any unusual sounds but i have never taken it apart..

This is definitely a result of modding it

Thats crazy bro, you didnt take the rubber domes and springs of the pcb right?  Just removed the sliders and put the rings and lube on right???   Is there any adhesive or material used to interface the rubber with the pcb???  You got me scared to crack mine open lol

There actually isn't an adhesive keeping the rubber domes to the pcb, just good old factory pressure holding it in place.

But yes, I did separate the two. eventually, accidentally.

interesting..  Im assuming you tried to remove the spring, or rotate it a little and then reinserting correct?  I dont understand how this could happen...

Yep, bout a half a dozen times. lol

[ajx]

After watched your video, its very clear its spring getting stuck on the membrane, i having same issue with my shift/return
On downstroke, the spring doesn't bounce but actually being stuck, thus you ll get that noise

[Moistgun]

After watched your video, its very clear its spring getting stuck on the membrane, i having same issue with my shift/return
On downstroke, the spring doesn't bounce but actually being stuck, thus you ll get that noise

Any suggestions on making it not do that?

Ive reseated the spring in the dome and moved springs around enough times.

[ajx]

It might be the ring itself
It might be the alignment, you need to be damn accurate, i am talking about 0,1mm, no joking, it could make the difference
It might be the screws, i have theory on unopened keyboard: its perfectly alignment due to the tightening of screws (i believe they do use a factory machine screwdriver)

I suggest you to remove ring then reseat spring + dome
If stuck spring still there, you eliminated a suspect at least
i also warn you, silenced HHKB does have inconstant feeling as you are currently encountering and ping/stuck spring issues due to the mod, the ping, is almost inevitable even on stock Type-S but stuck spring, it isn't normal
Stock HHKb feels more consistant and you will not notice any of these issues