Author Topic: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin  (Read 2029 times)

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Offline absyrd

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LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 06:27:59 »
https://www.thefpsreview.com/2020/04/30/asrock-launches-industrys-first-atx12vo-motherboard-the-z490-phantom-gaming-4sr/

Now how long until the PSU manus and other mobo makers transition to this for the long-term?
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 14:15:40 »
About time too, the old 20 pin cable was bad enough and 24 was just silly.

Why 10 pins though? 12v, GND, pin to short so it knows it's connected - that should be enough. Looks like they still have separate connectors for the CPU too...

I'll have to have a read when I'm at my computer.
                               
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 21:17:43 »
It's too early to celebrate the death of ATX 24pin.

We need a company like Gigabyte or Seasonic to announce they're on board. Corsair is a start but Corsair uses a low end PSU manufacturer to make their PSUs (made to Corsair's specs). Seasonic is the OEM that makes most of the high end PSUs. Gigabyte isn't as huge as Asus but Asus is often quick to jump on odd trends, don't look at them as a trend setter, they just use a shotgun approach (aim for everything and hope something hits).
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 08:51:51 »
Hmm... single rail with two backup connections and a pin to say it's ok to turn on and another to say it is on, just in case all three of one of either the power/GND wires break?  I guess the extra pin will light an LED on the mobo so you know it is at least partially plugged in (which you know because you tried to plug it in) but doesn't work (which you know because it won't boot) - handy!

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Offline Nuclear Nachos

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 11:45:04 »
I feel like its gonna be hard to switch from 24 pin with the amount of motherboards that still use it, but hopefully it goes smooth!

Offline clik_clak

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 11:45:34 »
10-12 years for full integration and transition would be my guess. We'll probably start seeing one-off PSU's/mobo's that are twice as expensive as their 24-pin counterparts just because of the early-adoption silliness.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 12:17:38 »
10-12 years for full integration and transition would be my guess. We'll probably start seeing one-off PSU's/mobo's that are twice as expensive as their 24-pin counterparts just because of the early-adoption silliness.

I'm pretty sure in most cases, a different header on the psu can take care of most of the compatibility issues.

Offline clik_clak

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 16:11:37 »
10-12 years for full integration and transition would be my guess. We'll probably start seeing one-off PSU's/mobo's that are twice as expensive as their 24-pin counterparts just because of the early-adoption silliness.

I'm pretty sure in most cases, a different header on the psu can take care of most of the compatibility issues.

Possibly...That doesn't mean they'll actually go that route though.

Also with this being an Intel spec, who knows how long it will take, or if it will ever come to, AMD boards.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 21:25:46 »
You can't just use an adapter cable, the new PSU lacks 3 and 5 volt entirely.

Someone will make an adapter, but they won't be cheap. Older style PSUs will be offered with an adapter to new style, but once companies really buy into this it could be as little as 3 years before most high end is all new style.


3 years is fast but not THAT fast.
The timing for it sets it up for happening right along side DDR5 and PSUs sellers would love for everyone to buy a new PSU. They haven't seen a bonanza like that since we switched from AT to ATX. While they won't be cheaper at first, they'll quickly come down to be priced below current ATX because it's cheaper and easier to make. OEMs will also jump on this quick, probably why the companies already onboard are oems for companies like HP, Dell, and Acer as it means they can make even smaller, quieter desktops.
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Offline absyrd

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 04:52:43 »
I figured this would come in itx form first. Definitely agree about "smaller, quieter desktops".

DDR5 article:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15699/sk-hynix-ddr5-8400

I run 16gb ddr4 @ 3600 on 1.4 volts. 8400 at 1.1? Wow.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 06:19:11 »
The timing for it sets it up for happening right along side DDR5 and PSUs sellers would love for everyone to buy a new PSU. They haven't seen a bonanza like that since we switched from AT to ATX.

Not even when they changed from 20 to 24 pin?  I know I bought one then and my previous PSU was nice so must have thought it necessary.


Wonder if I can manage to skip DDR4 entirely or fate will force me to buy the last of it meaning another expensive dead-end upgrade.
                               
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 08:04:58 »
Not even when they changed from 20 to 24 pin?  I know I bought one then and my previous PSU was nice so must have thought it necessary.
Wonder if I can manage to skip DDR4 entirely or fate will force me to buy the last of it meaning another expensive dead-end upgrade.
20 pin was easy to adapt to 24 with a $10 cable, same with the 4 and 8pin cpu header and GPU headers.


DDR2 was unusual, we had a flood that destroyed the fabs just as we switched to DDR3, this is why big DDR2 sticks are rare and relatively expensive.
DDR3 had a short life but a typical phaseout with boards supporting both DDR3 and DDR4, more than that, they still make it (someone did eventually restart a ddr2 fab, too little too late). The problem with the DDR3 phaseout was AMD wasn't in a good position performance-wise so it made little sense to buy once of these dual boards and switch to AMD. Intel often supports it, but only on extreme low end.

DDR4 will probably have a fantastic phaseout with boards from AMD likely supporting both for a while (you will need a compatible CPU though), more importantly though, DDR4 passed a milestone, the hardware far exceeded the software. A great many people bought 32 and even 64gigs of it, this extreme excess wasn't possible on DDR2, and only somewhat attainable on DDR3 but people with DDR4 went nuts with it because at times it was so cheap. As such even if you have DDR4, you will be able to get large amounts of it for CHEAP when it's finally phased out and performance-wise it won't be an issue for a while really.  Don't stress DDR4.

How it will work on AMD (based on past experience) is you will get a newer board, it will have 2 slots of DDR4 and 2 slots DDR5, you slot in a current Ryzen or a new Athlon or Duron (one of the two is returning), it should support DDR4 and DDR5. Later, you upgrade cpu and ram if you have a current gen Ryzen or if you have a Duron/Athlon you upgrade just memory. It's not perfect but makes it a little easier. The new Athon/Duron will basically be a current gen Ryzen with updated microcode and a cheaper price. Performance will be similar to current gen Ryzen, which is a massive upgrade for someone on an older Intel.

Even if AMD doesn't didn't do the dual system, the current upper and even mid tier stuff won't be considered slow anytime soon. I hate to say outdated, because it's sort of a missnomer, yeah, it's past the prime, but do you really consider an 8700k or a Ryzen 2700 slow?  Despite coming up on the end of DDR4, we're still in a fantastic spot in computing history in terms of longevity and bang for the buck.

Right now you can get a Ryzen 2600 and motherboard for under $200, toss in a decent GPU and that thing will keep trucking for a while. DDR5? Who cares. You have a pretty nice 6core/12 thread beast with plenty of memory. It's not going to be "slow" for quite a while.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 09:54:14 »
How it will work on AMD (based on past experience) is you will get a newer board, it will have 2 slots of DDR4 and 2 slots DDR5, you slot in a current Ryzen or a new Athlon or Duron (one of the two is returning), it should support DDR4 and DDR5. Later, you upgrade cpu and ram if you have a current gen Ryzen or if you have a Duron/Athlon you upgrade just memory. It's not perfect but makes it a little easier. The new Athon/Duron will basically be a current gen Ryzen with updated microcode and a cheaper price. Performance will be similar to current gen Ryzen, which is a massive upgrade for someone on an older Intel.

Interesting, hadn't heard of the return of Athlon/Duron.  Hopefully they come with external identifier traces again ;D

I remember mobos supporting two types of RAM but never the nice ones and back then you needed 4 sticks (2 when you bought it, 2 more as an upgrade) so never considered one.  I guess 32GB will still be enough in 10 years time though so 2 slots of DDR4 wouldn't be the end of the world.

I'm on a DDR3 Intel setup so I'd be looking at another $200+ on top for 2x16GB DDR4 and as you say - slow is relative.  I don't need to upgrade so will probably run this setup until it dies, just like the last two.  At least the next upgrade will actually be an upgrade which will be nice even if I don't notice it.
                               
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 20:28:05 »
Interesting, hadn't heard of the return of Athlon/Duron.  Hopefully they come with external identifier traces again ;D

I remember mobos supporting two types of RAM but never the nice ones and back then you needed 4 sticks (2 when you bought it, 2 more as an upgrade) so never considered one.  I guess 32GB will still be enough in 10 years time though so 2 slots of DDR4 wouldn't be the end of the world.

I'm on a DDR3 Intel setup so I'd be looking at another $200+ on top for 2x16GB DDR4 and as you say - slow is relative.  I don't need to upgrade so will probably run this setup until it dies, just like the last two.  At least the next upgrade will actually be an upgrade which will be nice even if I don't notice it.
While Ryzen CPUs have unlocked multipliers, it won't surprise me if Duron/Athlons are locked.

Dual ram boards are always budget, a stepping stone. That said, the difference between a low end board and a high end board isn't like in the past. Even low end has more than you probably need. Oh, and so no one miss-understands, you can only use one type of ram at a time, mixing old and new will release the magic smoke.

My point was not to be concerned if you have to upgrade before DDR5 arrives and "get stuck" with DDR4, It's not the end of the world.
The current good stuff is the modern day 2nd gen Core I series (if not better!). It will be very, very long legged.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 05:49:35 »
While Ryzen CPUs have unlocked multipliers, it won't surprise me if Duron/Athlons are locked.

Dual ram boards are always budget, a stepping stone. That said, the difference between a low end board and a high end board isn't like in the past. Even low end has more than you probably need. Oh, and so no one miss-understands, you can only use one type of ram at a time, mixing old and new will release the magic smoke.

My point was not to be concerned if you have to upgrade before DDR5 arrives and "get stuck" with DDR4, It's not the end of the world.
The current good stuff is the modern day 2nd gen Core I series (if not better!). It will be very, very long legged.
Yeah, I just have fond memories of taking a scalpel and pencil to a CPU to make it go faster.  No way will they make that mistake again if the IPC is anywhere near the premium offerings :(

Great advice as always - very few people need 20 USB ports or five PCI-E slots, certainly not me.  The only problem with budget boards is the lack of overclocking, power circuitry being among the first things to be skimped on even if the bios can be fixed.

I'd still be running my 2600K if it's mobo hadn't died, had to replace it so bought z97 to reuse the RAM.  Then a year or so on I killed that CPU and moaned a lot about having to spend loads on DDR4 for an upgrade I didn't want or need so stuck with z97.  The cost saved there would be offset if I only get 1 mobo/cpu that runs DDR4 and with 5 on the horizon it sounds kinda likely (I'd need a failure now and another before the end of the crossover gen is obsolete - even I'm not that unlucky/clumsy)  If my dodgy desktop-modded 4980HQ lasts I'll be happy, if not I may well be using a G3258 for a bit.  Assuming it's not died wherever it is with the IHS not attached :-[

Now all they need to do is kill SATA and I'd have to consider an off the shelf computer as I'd need everything - scary thought!
                               
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Offline yui

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 06:05:17 »
Hmm... single rail with two backup connections and a pin to say it's ok to turn on and another to say it is on, just in case all three of one of either the power/GND wires break?  I guess the extra pin will light an LED on the mobo so you know it is at least partially plugged in (which you know because you tried to plug it in) but doesn't work (which you know because it won't boot) - handy!

(Attachment Link)

The multiple pairs of 12V and GND is to allow more power, i think each pin is limited to 5A so 60W if you only had one of each, 2 might have been enough but  given where intel is right now with their CPU better allow a bit more power just in case...
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 06:14:21 »
Hopefully the industry doesn't force it like HD TV otherwise we'll need another stimulus check for everyone to upgrade their RAM and mobo

Offline phinix

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 07:13:24 »
Couldn't they just make it a lot simplier and make more changes, like do we still need CPU cable? Could this be powered straight from this 10 pin ATX cable?
Same for drives power supply - could they simply get power from  some upgraded SATA data cables?
Then one single cable for GPUs - one 8pin for example, just more power through it?

I'm not an expert in electricity, but these would make it all simplier and compact. One ATX cable and one 8pin for GPU, rest of it, powered via mobo itself or data cables.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 07:41:22 »
Hopefully the industry doesn't force it like HD TV otherwise we'll need another stimulus check for everyone to upgrade their RAM and mobo
TV was mandated, computers evolve.

You should be able to find a good selection of 24pin PSUs up till about 2025 with a few still available till about 2027. 
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 08:08:40 »
Couldn't they just make it a lot simplier and make more changes, like do we still need CPU cable? Could this be powered straight from this 10 pin ATX cable?
Same for drives power supply - could they simply get power from  some upgraded SATA data cables?
Then one single cable for GPUs - one 8pin for example, just more power through it?

I'm not an expert in electricity, but these would make it all simplier and compact. One ATX cable and one 8pin for GPU, rest of it, powered via mobo itself or data cables.
The CPU cable is there because of interference, the longer it travels through the pcb the greater the risk of interference. It's also necessary because they exceeded what the 24pin could provide, it only has a few 12v wires. Not only do new CPUS need the 8 pin, some cpus need dual 8 pins plus the ATX connector.

Cables have draw limits.
A 6 pin I think can handle about 130 watts, an 8 pin is about 150, it may be higher, but that's the reason for it. Too much beyond that and they get hot, melt and bad things happen.


On the new PSU there is no SATA power from the PSU, they are be driven off the motherboard by combo cable that has power and sata. Not only do they exist, you may have even seen one and not realized it. This is Sata Express, it lets you connect two sata cables for two drives or two cables to a single (compatible) drive for double the speed. The small bit on the left provides power (cables go from this to a normal sata power connector). It's been on Intel boards for a couple years now. Sata was supposed to be even faster, but development was going to take too long and NVME took the wind out of it so this was what they came up with as a stop gap.
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 08:28:07 »
Hopefully the industry doesn't force it like HD TV otherwise we'll need another stimulus check for everyone to upgrade their RAM and mobo
TV was mandated, computers evolve.

You should be able to find a good selection of 24pin PSUs up till about 2025 with a few still available till about 2027. 


Well then I look forward to upgrading to 64gb for under $100 in the near future

Offline yui

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 08:47:47 »

Cables have draw limits.
A 6 pin I think can handle about 130 watts, an 8 pin is about 150, it may be higher, but that's the reason for it. Too much beyond that and they get hot, melt and bad things happen.


A youtuber (der8auer) actually tested those limits, and well, they are very conservative, no consumer graphics card could be able to melt a 6pins, maybe high overclock cards could start to get them fairly hot, but when you heat up the cable you lose efficiency, and as ATX12VO is all about efficiency i guess they would rather not do that.
But we could instead of having 16 small wires pull an Apple and have 2 thick copper bars to handle that power, i would expect it to be quite a bit more expensive when no 2 graphics cards and motherboard place their power connectors in the same place.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 09:00:52 »

A youtuber (der8auer) actually tested those limits

It's about safety.

2 different 18awg cables can have very different qualities, if it's tinned it can support much higher current. Alot of the ghetto brands have gone back to cost reduced wires again. They play with the stranding and such to save pennies.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 09:16:27 »
A youtuber (der8auer) actually tested those limits, and well, they are very conservative, no consumer graphics card could be able to melt a 6pins, maybe high overclock cards could start to get them fairly hot, but when you heat up the cable you lose efficiency, and as ATX12VO is all about efficiency i guess they would rather not do that.
But we could instead of having 16 small wires pull an Apple and have 2 thick copper bars to handle that power, i would expect it to be quite a bit more expensive when no 2 graphics cards and motherboard place their power connectors in the same place.
Mac Pro I assume? You can't remove the cover with the cord plugged in, your system lacks this safety feature.

Anything over 18amps @12volts is considered high voltage and requires warning stickers and all sorts of regulatory stuff because it can kill you. This is probably why the wires are split the way they are, to keep you from shorting all of them at once.


As for the numbers, they are supposed to be conservative.
You need engineering overhead for bad connections, broken wires, crap wires, bad connector joints, power spikes, heat cycles on the connector, basically safe even in a worst case scenario.  You never design something with safety in mind to barely meet the requirements.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 10:03:21 »
You need far less than 1 amp to killz.. LOL

12v is only secure in the sense that it's not likely to hop and growl on ya.

Offline yui

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 12:59:55 »
A youtuber (der8auer) actually tested those limits, and well, they are very conservative, no consumer graphics card could be able to melt a 6pins, maybe high overclock cards could start to get them fairly hot, but when you heat up the cable you lose efficiency, and as ATX12VO is all about efficiency i guess they would rather not do that.
But we could instead of having 16 small wires pull an Apple and have 2 thick copper bars to handle that power, i would expect it to be quite a bit more expensive when no 2 graphics cards and motherboard place their power connectors in the same place.
Mac Pro I assume? You can't remove the cover with the cord plugged in, your system lacks this safety feature.

Anything over 18amps @12volts is considered high voltage and requires warning stickers and all sorts of regulatory stuff because it can kill you. This is probably why the wires are split the way they are, to keep you from shorting all of them at once.


As for the numbers, they are supposed to be conservative.
You need engineering overhead for bad connections, broken wires, crap wires, bad connector joints, power spikes, heat cycles on the connector, basically safe even in a worst case scenario.  You never design something with safety in mind to barely meet the requirements.
i was talking old Powermacs, the ones with multiples powerPC cpus

and no when you increase amperage you do never reach high voltage, do do that you need to increase voltage, although you can make power arcs and get burns of that (talking about 100A or above here) it will not kill you, a few mA are enough to kill but the human body have a fairly high resistance (in the Mohm) so to reach enough current to start to be slightly dangerous is about 48V. 18A @12V is only 216W, quite a few graphics card handle that much or more, and you never see a danger sticker on them (ok maybe heat).

and yeah in engineering we usually keep margins but those are absolutely huge, most power supply i have owned the coils in them used much thinner wires, and not 6 of them, and the mini fit jr connector is rated at 13A per contact (https://www.molex.com/molex/products/family/minifit_power_connector_solutions), so passing only 11A through 3 of them (PCI-e 6 and 8 pins connector only have 3*12V pins) is quite the margin.

So yeah you can make impressive arcs with high 100sA in 12V but it will never kill you (at least not the electricity the house fire may) on the other hand only 16mA will kill you pretty quick in 110V i do not remember the actual number but you need to calculate energy(J) to know if something can or will kill as it is factor of Voltage(to cross your high resistance body), Amperage (to do the damage) and Time (you need time for any damage to be permanent).
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Offline Altis

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 13:18:57 »
Mac Pro I assume? You can't remove the cover with the cord plugged in, your system lacks this safety feature.

Anything over 18amps @12volts is considered high voltage and requires warning stickers and all sorts of regulatory stuff because it can kill you. This is probably why the wires are split the way they are, to keep you from shorting all of them at once.


As for the numbers, they are supposed to be conservative.
You need engineering overhead for bad connections, broken wires, crap wires, bad connector joints, power spikes, heat cycles on the connector, basically safe even in a worst case scenario.  You never design something with safety in mind to barely meet the requirements.

That's not really how voltage works. The current induced is a factor of the voltage and resistance. Since your skin has considerable resistance, 12V cannot induce much current at all (negligible), so it's considered safe to humans regardless of what current can be sourced from the supply.

The only reason a 12V source can deliver 18A of current is if it has a low-impedance path (in this case about 0.67 Ohms, which is exceptionally low). Of course, if it short-circuits to ground you can get even more. That's why circuits have overload protection devices like fuses and breakers. But no matter what current a circuit is capable of delivering, it is no more dangerous to humans to have a 1A than 20A circuit if the voltage is 12V. It only takes less than 1A to be fatal, but you won't get that from 12V without using your tongue or something.  :p

As for the conductors of the PSU, each conductor can only carry so much current. At 12V, 5V, and 3.3V, computers can draw quite a bit of current to satisfy the power needs. Probably more conductors than is necessary, but why would anyone really care about a few extra conductors anyways? Especially since that gives an easier standard that covers a wider range of demands. Not worth making different connectors for the sake of a few extra wires, generally.

And while I'd love to agree that things are designed to be well above safety margins, I've certainly seen things that are riding that line!
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 22:09:59 »
You need far less than 1 amp to killz.. LOL

12v is only secure in the sense that it's not likely to hop and growl on ya.
Stop.
You can kill with far less than one amp, amp is a combination of volts and watts, you can juggle the numbers all you want.

12v@18amp is/was the established standard for 12v safety, at least for ATX power. This was why a few years ago we had "multi-rail" power supplies, they were trying to break up the power into safer levels. Was this an engineering number or just something Intel helped decide I'm not sure and I really don't care to go down the rabbit hole, however It WAS the standard for ATX power delivery for a while with that being part of the reasoning. Go back a few years you can find power supplies that carried the high voltage warning, my old 750 watt did.


Point is, don't expect fewer pins anytime soon.
If you want it to change, talk to Intel (good luck).


i was talking old Powermacs, the ones with multiples powerPC cpus

I can't find enough info on it to say, but I do know those existed before the ATX changes I wrote above.


That's not really how voltage works.
(trim)
And while I'd love to agree that things are designed to be well above safety margins, I've certainly seen things that are riding that line!
I realize that, everyone here seems to realize that, tell it to Intel and those who set the standards.

Lot's of things ride the line, then we wonder why they fail.
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 May 2020, 22:11:49 by Leslieann »
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Offline phinix

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 05 May 2020, 03:09:26 »
Couldn't they just make it a lot simplier and make more changes, like do we still need CPU cable? Could this be powered straight from this 10 pin ATX cable?
Same for drives power supply - could they simply get power from  some upgraded SATA data cables?
Then one single cable for GPUs - one 8pin for example, just more power through it?

I'm not an expert in electricity, but these would make it all simplier and compact. One ATX cable and one 8pin for GPU, rest of it, powered via mobo itself or data cables.
The CPU cable is there because of interference, the longer it travels through the pcb the greater the risk of interference. It's also necessary because they exceeded what the 24pin could provide, it only has a few 12v wires. Not only do new CPUS need the 8 pin, some cpus need dual 8 pins plus the ATX connector.

Cables have draw limits.
A 6 pin I think can handle about 130 watts, an 8 pin is about 150, it may be higher, but that's the reason for it. Too much beyond that and they get hot, melt and bad things happen.


On the new PSU there is no SATA power from the PSU, they are be driven off the motherboard by combo cable that has power and sata. Not only do they exist, you may have even seen one and not realized it. This is Sata Express, it lets you connect two sata cables for two drives or two cables to a single (compatible) drive for double the speed. The small bit on the left provides power (cables go from this to a normal sata power connector). It's been on Intel boards for a couple years now. Sata was supposed to be even faster, but development was going to take too long and NVME took the wind out of it so this was what they came up with as a stop gap.
(Attachment Link)

Yeah, I remember those Sata express, I even had one on my mobo at some point.
Thanks for explanation  :thumb:
So in short, becase of the power level required and safety, there isn't much they can do.
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Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 05 May 2020, 08:30:45 »
It's too early to celebrate the death of ATX 24pin.

We need a company like Gigabyte or Seasonic to announce they're on board. Corsair is a start but Corsair uses a low end PSU manufacturer to make their PSUs (made to Corsair's specs). Seasonic is the OEM that makes most of the high end PSUs. Gigabyte isn't as huge as Asus but Asus is often quick to jump on odd trends, don't look at them as a trend setter, they just use a shotgun approach (aim for everything and hope something hits).

And you know Corsair uses Seasonic and FSP as their main OEM for a majority of their PSU's?

The 24pin will take over a decade to phase out (and that's a short time-span), but they will continue to produce the 24 just due to legacy hardware and then you have to think if AMD will even consider this as a "standard".   Companies like Dell, Lenovo, and HP have been using a similar connector for their boards for quite a while now - it was just deemed as a "proprietary" designed connector. 

It will be nice to see some more changes take place in the market, but it will take alot of time to saturate the market and become the norm.

Offline yui

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 05 May 2020, 09:56:44 »
It's too early to celebrate the death of ATX 24pin.

We need a company like Gigabyte or Seasonic to announce they're on board. Corsair is a start but Corsair uses a low end PSU manufacturer to make their PSUs (made to Corsair's specs). Seasonic is the OEM that makes most of the high end PSUs. Gigabyte isn't as huge as Asus but Asus is often quick to jump on odd trends, don't look at them as a trend setter, they just use a shotgun approach (aim for everything and hope something hits).

And you know Corsair uses Seasonic and FSP as their main OEM for a majority of their PSU's?

The 24pin will take over a decade to phase out (and that's a short time-span), but they will continue to produce the 24 just due to legacy hardware and then you have to think if AMD will even consider this as a "standard".   Companies like Dell, Lenovo, and HP have been using a similar connector for their boards for quite a while now - it was just deemed as a "proprietary" designed connector. 

It will be nice to see some more changes take place in the market, but it will take alot of time to saturate the market and become the norm.
AMD does not manufacture motherboard or psu what AMD thinks of it won't matter at all, and having used and modded hp and dell systems their implementation (pinouts, voltages, nb of connectors) is not the same and even changes between models, having a standard even if it is intel is a good thing overall, the one who will decide the success or failure of this will be the big players, HP, Dell, Lenovo, but also the motherboard and psu builders.
The main loss here would be that now you will need specialized motherboard to build home NAS, but adapters should not be too hard to build and sell, they will just sell the 2nd stage of most ATX power supply separate for a while (currently the efficient power supplies convert 12V into the other rails, not directly 110/220 as of old).
For me that move seems like a good one, although given how i am always a few generation late with my computers it will be a while before i can use it
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 05 May 2020, 23:18:44 »
And you know Corsair uses Seasonic and FSP as their main OEM for a majority of their PSU's?

The 24pin will take over a decade to phase out (and that's a short time-span), but they will continue to produce the 24 just due to legacy hardware and then you have to think if AMD will even consider this as a "standard".   Companies like Dell, Lenovo, and HP have been using a similar connector for their boards for quite a while now - it was just deemed as a "proprietary" designed connector. 
Not sure about all of them but the Corsair SFX and at least some of the rest of their line is actually made by Great Wall, who makes junk. Corsair mandates that they make them to Corsair's specs.

You are also correct on the 10 years for complete elimination, they will still be around but after 5 years finding a good one will start to become a challenge, but again, that clock only starts after they become the norm. If AMD doesn't participate it will end up in the dustbin of history, I don't see that Nuc becoming a thing.


The main loss here would be that now you will need specialized motherboard to build home NAS, but adapters should not be too hard to build and sell, they will just sell the 2nd stage of most ATX power supply separate for a while (currently the efficient power supplies convert 12V into the other rails, not directly 110/220 as of old).
If you look on the board in the first post there are dual 4pin sockets at the top right, they are smaller than the 4pin CPU power.
Those are 12volt power for drives, you could split that power (probably a few times), but the days of boards coming with 6-8 sata ports is also coming to a close, so you will be needing a raid card most likely. Not sure where sata 5v is coming from, probably a USB header.

This board is strange.
It's a Z series  "gaming" board but feature-wise it's pretty sparse, 2 sata ports and minimal rear I/O. This may just be them dipping their toes.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 06 May 2020, 05:52:40 »
This board is strange.
It's a Z series  "gaming" board but feature-wise it's pretty sparse, 2 sata ports and minimal rear I/O. This may just be them dipping their toes.

One keybard, one mouse, one controller/joystick, webcam, network, somewhere to plug in a headset and mic, boot drive, games drive, RGB - what more does a gamer want?  Oh yeah, more RGB (Suggested because my friend built a shiny rig and overloaded one RGB header causing random bits not to light up )

Assuming that's a 4 stack of USB ports it looks perfect to me, even has room for more games as the boot drive will me M.2.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 May 2020, 07:04:25 by suicidal_orange »
                               
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Offline yui

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 06 May 2020, 06:06:17 »
And you know Corsair uses Seasonic and FSP as their main OEM for a majority of their PSU's?

The 24pin will take over a decade to phase out (and that's a short time-span), but they will continue to produce the 24 just due to legacy hardware and then you have to think if AMD will even consider this as a "standard".   Companies like Dell, Lenovo, and HP have been using a similar connector for their boards for quite a while now - it was just deemed as a "proprietary" designed connector. 

Not sure about all of them but the Corsair SFX and at least some of the rest of their line is actually made by Great Wall, who makes junk. Corsair mandates that they make them to Corsair's specs.

You are also correct on the 10 years for complete elimination, they will still be around but after 5 years finding a good one will start to become a challenge, but again, that clock only starts after they become the norm. If AMD doesn't participate it will end up in the dustbin of history, I don't see that Nuc becoming a thing.

Why are you all banging on about AMD blocking anything there? how and why would they? and NUC have become a thing, just not with that name as it is a trademark from intel, but both Asrock and Zotac and plenty of specialized OEM makes "NUC" format PC nowadays (just not called NUC cause Intel brand), there is even AMD powered "NUCs".
And even now AMD is still nothing compared to Intel, i do "hate" intel as much as the next guy, but the reality is that even with much better cpu AMD is still in an uphill battle against intel.

The main loss here would be that now you will need specialized motherboard to build home NAS, but adapters should not be too hard to build and sell, they will just sell the 2nd stage of most ATX power supply separate for a while (currently the efficient power supplies convert 12V into the other rails, not directly 110/220 as of old).
If you look on the board in the first post there are dual 4pin sockets at the top right, they are smaller than the 4pin CPU power.
Those are 12volt power for drives, you could split that power (probably a few times), but the days of boards coming with 6-8 sata ports is also coming to a close, so you will be needing a raid card most likely. Not sure where sata 5v is coming from, probably a USB header.

yes, the motherboard will power the drives, it is why i said you may need special boards to have more than 1 or 2 spinning drive, i do not expect the SATA VRM to be that good or powerfull, and never made to run more drive than there are connectors on the board, so HBA cards will need their own VRM, so more expensive, and no the 500mA that you get from a usb port will not power much, 2ssd at most, and maybe more hdd as some use 12V for the motor and voice coil but you would need to pay attention, and pray that your motherboard has protection (unlike some macs back in the day, that could get bricked by plugging a usb peripheral that drew too much), and you have VRMs right next to those 2 connectors, so either it is a 3phace for the dimms or there is a 5V for the drives in the connector. but all of that is an edge case, and when you go there splicing a 5V step down converter is not really that crazy anymore. and who knows maybe we will start to see 12V ssd, or maybe only asrock will adopt this new norm and it will fizzle out, like BTX, and NTX and most of intel's previous attempts.

edit:messed up the quotes
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 May 2020, 06:09:44 by yui »
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Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 06 May 2020, 15:28:05 »
Technically the board doesn't need many Sata ports due to the way that NVMe (U.2 and m.2) have taken off and are really becoming a normal occurrence in mainstream computers and laptops.  Also they could easily have a port to adapt a SAS Backplane - much like 2/4u rack based boards allow for. 

AMD might not block it but again for their MainStream products it will take some work for them to design power to work with this spec - whether they build boards or not, they still sub out, like Intel, to OEM's to make their boards to their needs/specs for proposed sockets and chipsets.  I never said they would block them btw and never mention NUC/USFF systems (those are not mainstream products imo).  - thanks for the double response btw @yui

Offline Leslieann

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 06 May 2020, 22:23:29 »
One keybard, one mouse, one controller/joystick, webcam, network, somewhere to plug in a headset and mic, boot drive, games drive, RGB - what more does a gamer want?  Oh yeah, more RGB (Suggested because my friend built a shiny rig and overloaded one RGB header causing random bits not to light up

Assuming that's a 4 stack of USB ports it looks perfect to me, even has room for more games as the boot drive will me M.2.
"Gaming" typically denotes high end and/or flashy lights.
I'm not saying it's a bad board, I agree it's plenty for most everyone, just saying it's a bit sparse for a Z series Gaming motherboard. They even used one of the M.2 slots for the wifi card, my Mini-ITX board has dual M.2 plus a dedicated wifi slot and it's not even a high end ITX (though it is a Z series).


Why are you all banging on about AMD blocking anything there? how and why would they? and NUC have become a thing, just not with that name as it is a trademark from intel, but both Asrock and Zotac and plenty of specialized OEM makes "NUC" format PC nowadays (just not called NUC cause Intel brand), there is even AMD powered "NUCs".
And even now AMD is still nothing compared to Intel, i do "hate" intel as much as the next guy, but the reality is that even with much better cpu AMD is still in an uphill battle against intel.

I never said AMD would block anything.
I said it depends on if they get on board. They could remain ambivalent, put their weight behind it or push back against it.

Why would they push back against it? Because if Intel makes it an exclusive thing it could split the market, which would be bad for AMD. Go read up on history of proprietary systems, Betamax, Firewire and RDRAM are great examples but a more modern one is Lightning and Thunderbolt connectors.  Proprietary cables suck and do not stick around unless they are opened for everyone to use.


I said THIS Nuc will fail, not Nuc in general, I have several Lenovo models, they're great.
THIS Nuc however is half baked and way too high priced.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 May 2020, 22:29:28 by Leslieann »
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Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 07:45:14 »
Or this could become its own standard along side what we currently have much like the various variants we already have in the market. 

Also I like where Intel was aiming with this NUC, but they highly overshot it on the price - I could make something custom out of a Laptop the would be close in size, or even just use a S4 Mini and make something smaller using full desktop components. 
The NUC has been a great platform in its original format - current have  a 3rd gen i3 version that I mess with as a linux test box so I can mess around with something before using it at work.

Offline clik_clak

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 09:45:09 »
Or this could become its own standard along side what we currently have much like the various variants we already have in the market. 

Also I like where Intel was aiming with this NUC, but they highly overshot it on the price - I could make something custom out of a Laptop the would be close in size, or even just use a S4 Mini and make something smaller using full desktop components. 
The NUC has been a great platform in its original format - current have  a 3rd gen i3 version that I mess with as a linux test box so I can mess around with something before using it at work.

I don't think people understand the point of these NUCs at all. They're meant to be put in places like exam rooms at doctors offices where space is at a premium and they may need some extra computing power to pull up things like medical images. No doctor is going to want some cobbled together nonsense just because it can be done.

Can you make a computer for cheaper? Sure. Can you make something more powerful? Sure. These also aren't being marketed to the kind of person that can do both of those things. They're meant for environments like I mentioned above, just like the Mac Pro is marketed to a certain type of crowd that hardly anyone seems to understand.

Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 09:55:44 »
Guess you have no clue of what a S4 Mini (Skyreach S4 Mini) is, they can be mounted to Vesa points on panels, and far from "hobbled" together.  The new NUC (everyone seems to not understand the term New and keeps bringing up the older or mainstream versions - Look it up Ghost Canyon NUC).  Also the laptop hybrid would be for personal use, not for mass production - even though I'm sure I could design something that would befitting a professional environment (don't doubt people's skills in design/engineering - whether you were or not, that's how it came across). 
The Mac pro is another subject in it's own (still highly overpriced and under engineered hardware that's behind the curve - I get why they take that approach but still).  I am proud of Apple for taking a step back into the realm of making their own desktop/laptop CPU's again though.  Also Apple are the kings of proprietary.

Offline clik_clak

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 10:03:50 »
Guess you have no clue of what a S4 Mini (Skyreach S4 Mini) is, they can be mounted to Vesa points on panels, and far from "hobbled" together.  The new NUC (everyone seems to not understand the term New and keeps bringing up the older or mainstream versions - Look it up Ghost Canyon NUC).  Also the laptop hybrid would be for personal use, not for mass production - even though I'm sure I could design something that would befitting a professional environment (don't doubt people's skills in design/engineering - whether you were or not, that's how it came across). 
The Mac pro is another subject in it's own (still highly overpriced and under engineered hardware that's behind the curve - I get why they take that approach but still).  I am proud of Apple for taking a step back into the realm of making their own desktop/laptop CPU's again though.  Also Apple are the kings of proprietary.

I can guarantee you a doctor doesn't care what you can design. They care about getting a simple, practical, deployable solution backed by a large company. If they need a replacement now, do you think they're going to wait around for you to try and cobble up a solution for them? No, they won't.

Again, a very large number of people here could come up with other solutions. That's not the point. Just like with Mac Pro's, the professionals they are being sold to don't care in the least bit about proprietary. They are meant for specific markets, not for people that care more about getting 5 points higher in cinebench than having the correct tool for the job.


Offline Leslieann

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 20:53:38 »
I don't think people understand the point of these NUCs at all. They're meant to be put in places like exam rooms at doctors offices where space is at a premium and they may need some extra computing power to pull up things like medical images. No doctor is going to want some cobbled together nonsense just because it can be done.
We understand the point but you're so focused on home users you forget companies like Puget Systems, Dell, Panasonic, HP, etc do the same thing.

Let's go with Dell since they offer maintenance contracts and such for this very purpose.
Dell does a custom case and goes all in on the Nuc, they certify it for hospitals, imaging companies build off it for use in x-ray rooms and such... Okay, then 3 months later Intel pulls the plug. Now what?  On the other hand Dell could do an ITX, does the same process... Same size box, half the price. Now not only can they use that same board in their home and office desktops and they can even use AMD as well. All with zero risk of Intel changing direction.
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Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 20:57:57 »
^This 100%

The company I'm with does alot of Private sector and Govt contract based deployment work with Dell and multiple other companies.  Every client's needs are different, alot actually use WYSE terminals now over something like a NUC. 
Now if this change were to go full send, those using WYSE based would be the are that it would probably start with.

Offline clik_clak

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 21:08:53 »
^This 100%

The company I'm with does alot of Private sector and Govt contract based deployment work with Dell and multiple other companies.  Every client's needs are different, alot actually use WYSE terminals now over something like a NUC. 
Now if this change were to go full send, those using WYSE based would be the are that it would probably start with.

I'm not necessarily talking about hospitals and their clinics, I'm talking about the majority of health clinics. Small mom and pop shops that need hardware now. You know, the 200 or clinics per one hospital in most of the civilized world. All of those places need computers these days and most of them have their business impacted immediately if things can't be replaced right now.

And any large hospital system that doesn't have end of life clauses built into their IT contracts is a company that no one should work for, especially in IT.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 08 May 2020, 02:18:13 »
I'm not necessarily talking about hospitals and their clinics, I'm talking about the majority of health clinics. Small mom and pop shops that need hardware now. You know, the 200 or clinics per one hospital in most of the civilized world. All of those places need computers these days and most of them have their business impacted immediately if things can't be replaced right now.

And any large hospital system that doesn't have end of life clauses built into their IT contracts is a company that no one should work for, especially in IT.
How exactly is a Nuc any better at this than ITX?

Do some of you still think ITX is rare or hard to get or something? 
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 08 May 2020, 04:45:10 »
I only visit two 'clinics' (they're called doctors surgeries, I guess it's an English vs whatever you lot speak thing :p) In the office are full size systems and for customer logins one has an arcade game sized computer which could easily conceal an ATX, the other uses an AIO monitor which would be a nightmare to reapair and impossible to upgrade.

Should they be using a NUC or ITX?  Yes.  Do medical people know computers?  Apparently not...
                               
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Offline Darthbaggins

  • Posts: 79
  • Location: Acworth, GA
  • PC Cannibal
Re: LeslieAnn called it. Bye bye 24 pin
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 08 May 2020, 07:24:59 »
Why are you so hung up on well you can't possibly be able to take care of a major corp's needs?   you just gleamed the previous posts to keep arguing your dead point.

Companies use whatever they deem necessary and what fits within their budget or under it.  I deal with them on a large scale everyday - as I posts this I have 7000 laptops that need to be out (just one of the many projects I over-see).  And trust me they could've picked something better but that's what they wanted.  Also in most cases, spares are sent to clients so in the event something goes down their in-house IT can swap it out and send it to us.