Author Topic: Conspiracy Corner..  (Read 6202 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Conspiracy Corner..
« on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 12:19:13 »
What are some of ur suspicions, reasonable or not.


Offline Findecanor

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 14:03:43 »
Bitcoin had been invented by some government's three-letter agency to use as a Chinese Lottery Cryptoanalysis system to use for cracking signatures whenever they wanted to.

Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
-- Arthur Miller

Offline gipetto

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 14 May 2020, 14:37:37 »
me and my dad saw a ufo every night for about a month maybe 10 years ago, so i've taken an interest in the subject. It appears there's something to the claim that the accelerating pace of information technology is due to studying downed ufos or collaboration with their operators.

Offline fliz

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 22 May 2020, 20:57:30 »
Covid is a last ditch effort to stop a Trump reelection.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 07:35:37 »
Lizard People are always a reliable stand-by.
The difference in characterization of crime and who commits it skews what criminality looks like demographically. "What we're seeing so far is very similar to the process that we see with Islamic violent Jihad radicalization," said former FBI Assistant Director Frank Figliuzzi, "This wanting to belong to a cause greater than yourself, wanting to get affirmation from a group who may not even know who you are or ever met you. And then feeling like you're part of this deployment, this cause. You heard him say on the clip 'It's my job to protect this.'
No, it's not your job. But you think it is. And video last night shows him walking around roaming around with the assault rifle not really doing much of protecting anything." Figliuzzi made it clear that calling these characters "troubled" is a misnomer. "I would assert," Figliuzzi continued. "that it's time we stopped using the word ‘troubled’ with regard to white young people who act out like this and start thinking about the radicalized term that we used when people of color or people of Islamic faith act out like this. This is a radicalization process that's happening. It happened with the El Paso shooter in Texas. We kept hearing he was troubled. No, he was radicalized. And it's happening online."

Offline fliz

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 14:11:03 »
I suspect "lizard people" is a metaphor and a dog whistle.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 14:39:38 »

a metaphor and a dog whistle.


Isn't that what most all conspiracy theories are?
The difference in characterization of crime and who commits it skews what criminality looks like demographically. "What we're seeing so far is very similar to the process that we see with Islamic violent Jihad radicalization," said former FBI Assistant Director Frank Figliuzzi, "This wanting to belong to a cause greater than yourself, wanting to get affirmation from a group who may not even know who you are or ever met you. And then feeling like you're part of this deployment, this cause. You heard him say on the clip 'It's my job to protect this.'
No, it's not your job. But you think it is. And video last night shows him walking around roaming around with the assault rifle not really doing much of protecting anything." Figliuzzi made it clear that calling these characters "troubled" is a misnomer. "I would assert," Figliuzzi continued. "that it's time we stopped using the word ‘troubled’ with regard to white young people who act out like this and start thinking about the radicalized term that we used when people of color or people of Islamic faith act out like this. This is a radicalization process that's happening. It happened with the El Paso shooter in Texas. We kept hearing he was troubled. No, he was radicalized. And it's happening online."

Offline fliz

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 15:10:11 »
I sincerely believe that some people earnestly believe that Icke's position is that there are literal shape shifting reptilian aliens in positions of power. Personally, my favorite Icke contribution is the frame that the Overton Window is "The Hassle-free Zone."


Offline bliss

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 15:31:08 »
Just another con. Like con-sent, con-trol, con-flict.

Offline funkmon

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 18:38:53 »
I sincerely believe that some people earnestly believe that Icke's position is that there are literal shape shifting reptilian aliens in positions of power. Personally, my favorite Icke contribution is the frame that the Overton Window is "The Hassle-free Zone."

David Icke, king of bull****. I don't know if there's a single piece of flim-flam that that guy hasn't peddled at some point.

I remember once when Steven Tyler was on Top Gear, Clarkson asked him what he'd been doing in England, and Steven Tyler told him he had hired David Icke to give him a tour of ****ing stonehenge. Clarkson could barely hold in his contempt it seemed like, and he moved on, despite Mr. Tyler praising the obvious nutjob.

David Icke's position is not JUST that there are lizard people running the country, but ALSO everything else that's stupid. To me, that is an indicator that it's not metaphor or anything, but this guy sincerely thinks there are shapeshifting subterranean ancient aliens controlling the world, among other things. We're all somehow controlled by vibrational energy along laylines, but also from Saturn. And the moon, which is hollow. Speaking of hollow, he has expressed a belief in the past that the world is, in fact, hollow as well.

His conspiracy theories, for which he is most widely known, are consistent with perhaps the reptilians being a metaphor. But they are not. Indeed, the main criticism in that regard is saying that he's talking about Reptilians as Jews.

He does not. He literally thinks they're reptilian. Icke is antisemitic in the books in whole different, and profound ways, not unfamiliar to those who are around conspiracy theorists. He talks explicitly about this, and his antisemitism is blatant, but it is separate from talking about who runs the world. So yes, he's antisemitic. AND he thinks there are lizard people.

Sincerely,
Someone who used to read his books for fun.
« Last Edit: Sat, 23 May 2020, 18:48:46 by funkmon »

Offline fliz

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 18:59:22 »
I seem to have opened a can of worms. lol

Why does this topic anger you so much if you sincerely believe it's nonsense? If somebody told me ice cream sucked, I'd just ignore them.

Do you think he's dangerous? If yes, what's your opinion on free speech in general?

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 19:18:25 »

the world is, in fact, hollow as well.


Hey, you reminded me of one that I had almost forgotten about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_Earth
The difference in characterization of crime and who commits it skews what criminality looks like demographically. "What we're seeing so far is very similar to the process that we see with Islamic violent Jihad radicalization," said former FBI Assistant Director Frank Figliuzzi, "This wanting to belong to a cause greater than yourself, wanting to get affirmation from a group who may not even know who you are or ever met you. And then feeling like you're part of this deployment, this cause. You heard him say on the clip 'It's my job to protect this.'
No, it's not your job. But you think it is. And video last night shows him walking around roaming around with the assault rifle not really doing much of protecting anything." Figliuzzi made it clear that calling these characters "troubled" is a misnomer. "I would assert," Figliuzzi continued. "that it's time we stopped using the word ‘troubled’ with regard to white young people who act out like this and start thinking about the radicalized term that we used when people of color or people of Islamic faith act out like this. This is a radicalization process that's happening. It happened with the El Paso shooter in Texas. We kept hearing he was troubled. No, he was radicalized. And it's happening online."

Offline fliz

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 19:48:54 »

Hey, you reminded me of one that I had almost forgotten about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_Earth

This reminds me of Bill Bryson's book "A Short History of Nearly Everything"

There's a bit where he covers when plate tectonics was first posited and the pushback the theory received from the scientific community.

I had an audiobook of it years ago and it felt like a Douglas Adams novel, only non-fiction, which is stranger. :D


Offline bcredbottle

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 20:29:26 »
FBI killed MLK imo.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 20:54:15 »
FBI killed MLK imo.


The secret police works until the very end.

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 21:13:24 »
The dress was white and gold

Offline pears

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 23 May 2020, 21:28:05 »

Offline Shapey Fiend

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 24 May 2020, 07:54:38 »
One thing I'm wondering is do the likes of David Ike (presuming he's not entirely sincere) sort of exploit mentally ill people? A bit like psychics with grieving families. They're certainly profiting off some of them.

I'd a friend killed himself and he was talking the usual shadow government conspiracy stuff beforehand on facebook the day it happened. I know it probably would have happened anyway, and I enjoy watching the occasional clip of Infowars myself purely as entertainment, but is this stuff destructive in of itself? If you've psychosis maybe you'll always find a way to confirm your theory even if David Ike doesn't do it for you?

Haven't encountered more than one friend having an episode I'd feel a bit conflicted about disseminating wild theories. I usually tried not to contradict them but I tried to sort of nudge them back towards a slightly less extreme version of what they were talking about.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 24 May 2020, 09:31:51 »

is this stuff destructive in of itself?


It is absolutely destructive in and of itself.

I come from an older generation educated with a goal of critical thinking and a lifelong love of learning. Truth and fact were assumed as givens, and falsehoods and fabrications were not merely dismissed as trivial foolishness, but loathed as pernicious evil inflicted on society.

And please note that satire, irony, and parody were highly valued and often enjoyed, but there was a clear demarcation between fact and fallacy. Deliberate fallacies were scorned and disdained.
The difference in characterization of crime and who commits it skews what criminality looks like demographically. "What we're seeing so far is very similar to the process that we see with Islamic violent Jihad radicalization," said former FBI Assistant Director Frank Figliuzzi, "This wanting to belong to a cause greater than yourself, wanting to get affirmation from a group who may not even know who you are or ever met you. And then feeling like you're part of this deployment, this cause. You heard him say on the clip 'It's my job to protect this.'
No, it's not your job. But you think it is. And video last night shows him walking around roaming around with the assault rifle not really doing much of protecting anything." Figliuzzi made it clear that calling these characters "troubled" is a misnomer. "I would assert," Figliuzzi continued. "that it's time we stopped using the word ‘troubled’ with regard to white young people who act out like this and start thinking about the radicalized term that we used when people of color or people of Islamic faith act out like this. This is a radicalization process that's happening. It happened with the El Paso shooter in Texas. We kept hearing he was troubled. No, he was radicalized. And it's happening online."

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 24 May 2020, 09:47:08 »
I know it probably would have happened anyway, and I enjoy watching the occasional clip of Infowars myself purely as entertainment, but is this stuff destructive in of itself?

Anything that happened would've happened regardless of agency, agency does not conflict with determinism, they run in parallel.

Agency is our sense of decision making,  what actually happens is the TRUE decision as determined by forces Greater than ourselves INCLUSIVE of us.

Our perception of our role dominates the event aftermath, while in reality everything in the universe was equally complicit.


As for whether Infowar is destructive. I'd say not entirely.

In our own personal minds, we model the outcome of multiple options, some of which are quite obviously bad.

In External realities, people commit to mistakes, and it is through all forms of interplay that we derive proof of optimization.

We can not determine error if those mistakes were never modeled in the first place. Sure, some of this modeling is costly, in time, resources, human LIVES,   but death is the greatest lesson for all human beings, and there are Many many sub-optimal choices that have historical momentum which would take nothing short of mass-death to unwind.


For example.  Using lead in cosmetics, bad idea, lots of women died, now that's a good lesson. We don't do that anymore.

Eating cholesterol leading to artery disease, it is by far the #1 killer, killing more than all the world-wars combined.     Again, this is a big lesson, very expensive, very deadly.

Nature is self correcting THROUGH death.  It's unfortunate at the personal lvl, the price that must be paid, but this is simply how the system operates.

Offline fliz

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 24 May 2020, 16:57:04 »
Free speech has very few limits:

Incitement to violence
Slander
Libel
Fraud
Immediate danger (like yelling fire in a crowded theater)

The standard for these 5 limitations is exceedingly high, too.

Going down the path of labeling speech "dangerous" as a pretense for limiting speech is far more dangerous than any speech.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Forcing bad ideas to live in the dark only gives them the opportunity to fester.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" -Evelyn Beatrice Hall

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 24 May 2020, 17:33:07 »
All major media outlets are privately owned and controlled by a group of billionaires that tell the world what to think and how to feel, with the main goal of breeding dissonance and getting all lower and middle class to fight each other rather than turning on the rich.

Offline funkmon

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 24 May 2020, 19:02:48 »

Why does this topic anger you so much if you sincerely believe it's nonsense? If somebody told me ice cream sucked, I'd just ignore them.

Do you think he's dangerous? If yes, what's your opinion on free speech in general?

I'm not angered. Indeed, I like this kind of stuff. It's a fun mental exercise IMO, and most of its "believers" also consider it thus. I'm very for freedom of speech. I think someone should be able to yell fire in a crowded theatre and spout obvious bull**** that results in damage or even death. That's freedom. I love David Icke for being so bug-nutty that he believes in absolutely everything. I'm not even angry. Indeed, the last post was, if anything, a celebration of woo. The man believes anything except the mainstream or consensus viewpoint, even if the ideas are mutually exclusive. It's genuinely awesome. I would be more starstruck if I met David Icke, king of bull****, than if I met Tom Cruise. Love that guy.

Is he dangerous? Probably. Do I care? Not really. I debunk his ideas when I need to do so, although it is rare since so few people actually buy into his crackpot hypotheses, but overall, I'm glad he's there. I like it when people present alternative viewpoints, even if wholly illogical.


This reminds me of Bill Bryson's book "A Short History of Nearly Everything"

There's a bit where he covers when plate tectonics was first posited and the pushback the theory received from the scientific community.

I had an audiobook of it years ago and it felt like a Douglas Adams novel, only non-fiction, which is stranger. :D



Bill Bryson is a travel writer, and, while he popularizes some aspects of history, I don't appreciate his science writing, nor his histories. I have degrees in Physics, astronomy, geology, biology, chemistry, (I wanted to be a teacher) and another one in English Linguistics. Virtually every time he has written about a subject with which I am familiar, like English in The Mother Tongue, or the history of science in ASHONE, he makes numerous errors which, to a layman, seem minor and add to the story, but to an "expert" are jarring and wholly misrepresent the development of either English or physics. I take everything Bryson says with a grain of salt. So be careful there. His books have great stories, but they're often divorced from reality. In my opinion, stories trump reality, just like Bryson, but I do always acknowledge what really happened when I'm telling a story that's obviously bull****.

Offline fliz

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 02:30:45 »
Can you give me some examples of stuff he gets wrong in AHSONE?

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 08:42:25 »

There's a bit where he covers when plate tectonics was first posited and the pushback the theory received from the scientific community.


I can speak to this. I started school in 1958, and I distinctly remember when, a few years later, plate tectonics burst into our science classes as the Big Hot New Discovery.
The difference in characterization of crime and who commits it skews what criminality looks like demographically. "What we're seeing so far is very similar to the process that we see with Islamic violent Jihad radicalization," said former FBI Assistant Director Frank Figliuzzi, "This wanting to belong to a cause greater than yourself, wanting to get affirmation from a group who may not even know who you are or ever met you. And then feeling like you're part of this deployment, this cause. You heard him say on the clip 'It's my job to protect this.'
No, it's not your job. But you think it is. And video last night shows him walking around roaming around with the assault rifle not really doing much of protecting anything." Figliuzzi made it clear that calling these characters "troubled" is a misnomer. "I would assert," Figliuzzi continued. "that it's time we stopped using the word ‘troubled’ with regard to white young people who act out like this and start thinking about the radicalized term that we used when people of color or people of Islamic faith act out like this. This is a radicalization process that's happening. It happened with the El Paso shooter in Texas. We kept hearing he was troubled. No, he was radicalized. And it's happening online."

Offline Shapey Fiend

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 11:59:06 »

is this stuff destructive in of itself?


It is absolutely destructive in and of itself.

I come from an older generation educated with a goal of critical thinking and a lifelong love of learning. Truth and fact were assumed as givens, and falsehoods and fabrications were not merely dismissed as trivial foolishness, but loathed as pernicious evil inflicted on society.

And please note that satire, irony, and parody were highly valued and often enjoyed, but there was a clear demarcation between fact and fallacy. Deliberate fallacies were scorned and disdained.

Is this generation that terrifically different? Conspiracies thrived long before the internet along with propaganda, tabloid journalism, quack doctors etc. My parents got very high level educations but it came with a gigantic dose of religious dogma. Where I'm from, Ireland, there was loads of books banned, plays boycotted and plenty of humour was taboo. The Life of Brian for instance got banned for 8 years because the church weren't having any of it.
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 May 2020, 12:03:01 by Shapey Fiend »

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 13:28:14 »

Is this generation that terrifically different?


Yes, I believe that it is. And/but one major determinant may be whether one has jettisoned religion, which I did when I entered adulthood.

I recently finished a job of almost 3 years where I worked with a group of guys in their 30s and 40s who were almost all far to the right politically, very religious, never read books, and lapped up conspiracy theories like eager dogs.

It was heartbreaking to me in talking to them because they were absolutely not willing to listen to any form of facts, proof, science, statistics, or any other type of reason or logic when I challenged their "beliefs" and attempted to show what reality looked like in sunlight.

Maybe I am wrong, but my perception of (and I hate to paint a large portion of humanity with a single brush) ignorant people, back in the day (what we blissfully called "The Space Age") was that ignorance was something to be ashamed of and while a confrontation with facts might not actually change their minds, they understood, somewhere deep inside, that they really didn't know enough to defend their positions.

Today, I feel like the world is awash in what I would call "aggressive ignorance" and many people genuinely don't want to hear about science or truth.

PS - I changed my signature back to the Asimov quote I had up a few weeks ago, it fits in here.
The difference in characterization of crime and who commits it skews what criminality looks like demographically. "What we're seeing so far is very similar to the process that we see with Islamic violent Jihad radicalization," said former FBI Assistant Director Frank Figliuzzi, "This wanting to belong to a cause greater than yourself, wanting to get affirmation from a group who may not even know who you are or ever met you. And then feeling like you're part of this deployment, this cause. You heard him say on the clip 'It's my job to protect this.'
No, it's not your job. But you think it is. And video last night shows him walking around roaming around with the assault rifle not really doing much of protecting anything." Figliuzzi made it clear that calling these characters "troubled" is a misnomer. "I would assert," Figliuzzi continued. "that it's time we stopped using the word ‘troubled’ with regard to white young people who act out like this and start thinking about the radicalized term that we used when people of color or people of Islamic faith act out like this. This is a radicalization process that's happening. It happened with the El Paso shooter in Texas. We kept hearing he was troubled. No, he was radicalized. And it's happening online."

Offline fliz

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 14:34:46 »
Ignorance and refusal to accept reality is bipartisan.

Government funded science burned all its currency decades ago with fraudulent nutrition science. If your conclusions don't fall in line with agendas your funding vanishes.

Credibility matters. California says you can swim but can't hang out on the beach. New York says you can hang out on the beach but can't swim. Both assert their policies are science based.

California says you can only buy raw milk from grocery stores and not directly from farmers. Texas says you can only buy from farmers and not grocery stores. Both claim this is to protect consumers.

Offline funkmon

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 15:42:34 »
Can you give me some examples of stuff he gets wrong in AHSONE?

I'm about to look like one of those internet dummies, but no, I can't really think of one. It was mostly minor, and I think it was largely things like presenting a hypothesis as the correct one when a significant scholarly debate exists.

Actually now that I think about it, I believe he said something about the universe's expansion slowing and grinding to a halt, to end in a big crunch. If I recall correctly, even at that time, it was not even a majority viewpoint among scientists, but one of several possibilities, essentially equally plausible.

He also presented the impact hypothesis of the K-T extinction as the definitive one, which has yet to reach scientific consensus even decades after it was presented, much less when the book was written.

This kind of stuff is what I mean when the story trumps the facts. You ask any honest scientist what killed the dinosaurs, he'll say he doesn't know, but that makes a significantly less compelling story, just like the big crunch captured popular imagination at the time as a nice story, but was by no means the most accepted hypothesis about the universe expansion.

I remember the worst one was The Mother Tongue, though. That book is so unbelievably wrong that I suggest everyone avoid it like the plague. I recommend Bryson's ASHONE and his one about the stuff in the home, whatever that's called, because they are fantastic popular science books, and it's difficult to do engaging pop science without fudging a little bit, and I'm not sure it's possible.

The only issue, again, is fairly minor stuff which I think relates to the processes of scientific inquiry. Science is supposed to be highly skeptical and push back. The best hypotheses are the ones that can withstand the most scrutiny. If there are any holes to the hypothesis, they must be explored. That's how science is done. The idea of continental drift was proposed many times over the centures, although most notably by Wegener. The problem is, there wasn't evidence that couldn't be explained away easier without any new assumptions. Only in the sixties was enough support found for this hypothesis. What good scientist would support an idea that presupposed a fundamental change to our understanding of geology based on "oh the continents look good together and some fossils look samey." My response would be "yeah, okay. Whatever moron."

Science must be resistant to new ideas until enough support is provided! There are enough badly done studies of ESP out there to show an effect, but because science is extremely skeptical and conservative to new ideas, they demand exceptional support. ESP breaks down under that. I'm just using this as an example because for every major new discovery that scientists have pushed back on, there are thousands, every day, that they push back on and it was nothing. This is by design, so we don't have a new scientific consensus on random bull**** every day.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 17:32:53 »

Is this generation that terrifically different?


Yes, I believe that it is. And/but one major determinant may be whether one has jettisoned religion, which I did when I entered adulthood.

I recently finished a job of almost 3 years where I worked with a group of guys in their 30s and 40s who were almost all far to the right politically, very religious, never read books, and lapped up conspiracy theories like eager dogs.

It was heartbreaking to me in talking to them because they were absolutely not willing to listen to any form of facts, proof, science, statistics, or any other type of reason or logic when I challenged their "beliefs" and attempted to show what reality looked like in sunlight.

Maybe I am wrong, but my perception of (and I hate to paint a large portion of humanity with a single brush) ignorant people, back in the day (what we blissfully called "The Space Age") was that ignorance was something to be ashamed of and while a confrontation with facts might not actually change their minds, they understood, somewhere deep inside, that they really didn't know enough to defend their positions.

Today, I feel like the world is awash in what I would call "aggressive ignorance" and many people genuinely don't want to hear about science or truth.

PS - I changed my signature back to the Asimov quote I had up a few weeks ago, it fits in here.


It won't be until the next generation is old enough to grow frustrated by the current Zoomer/Gen Z's ineffectualality and complaining while doing nothing. We won't see another great generation of world changers and doers for another 15-25 years, and by that time wealth gaps will be large enough that factor will also push that generation further past the envelope than ever before in modern history. I have no faith in the current younger generation even being able to civilly speak or work together, let alone solve world issues. They/we/you all seem quite self-defeatist and lazy.

Offline Shapey Fiend

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 12:55:26 »
I think this kind of thing is a problem of socialization. With families breaking down and people spending less time interacting in real life they're latching onto extreme viewpoints, religion and other bull****. When you live with other people you've got to take multiple viewpoints into account. People were ignoring their families and hanging with groups of like minded peers all the time back in the day too it was just in gold clubs or whatever rather than social media.

This problem can afflict the academic just as badly as the uneducated. If you've been a successful exam passer all your life you're accustomed to being right. There's confirmation bias. You haven't had to work in the private sector and deal with practical realities which causes a big disconnect. With media being as **** as it is today at disseminating information sensibly it's quite easy for the 'common man' to feel like they don't have any skin in the game and are being talked down to which results in this anti science, populist horse****.


Offline Maledicted

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 15:35:56 »
Ignorance and refusal to accept reality is bipartisan.

Government funded science burned all its currency decades ago with fraudulent nutrition science. If your conclusions don't fall in line with agendas your funding vanishes.

Credibility matters. California says you can swim but can't hang out on the beach. New York says you can hang out on the beach but can't swim. Both assert their policies are science based.

California says you can only buy raw milk from grocery stores and not directly from farmers. Texas says you can only buy from farmers and not grocery stores. Both claim this is to protect consumers.

Agreed. I'm also somewhat amused by religion being assumed to be a factor in whether or not someone happens to be ignorant. People see the nonsensical dogma of the Catholic church, past and present, and stereotype religion based only on that. Looking at history, I actually, ironically, see the Protestant Reformation as a good example of how knowledge, reason, information, etc, will need to be overhauled in order to fix our broken political system, among other nonsensical institutions, although (also ironically) I see modern Lutheranism as almost indistinguishable from the Catholic church.

For millennia, doctrine was based partly on untranslated Greek, Hebrew, and Latin texts. Many of these texts were picked and chosen based solely on their social, political, and economic benefits to the Catholic leadership. Even then, since priests and the rich were the only ones with the education required to read these texts for themselves, priests could deliver whatever message they liked and it would be accepted as rigid orthodoxy. Wars on a scale (as far as number of nations involved) not seen again until the 20th century, were started on the whim of the Pope, for the most arbitrary of reasons. Suddenly, you had this maniac translating the original text into German, and printing it for everyone who can to read, and offering alternative interpretation and/or direct dissemination for those who could not. Now, in the same vein as what tp4 so eloquently said, this caused mass political and religious chaos, upheaval, and death for centuries. The end result, however, was eventual religious freedom throughout Europe and the reduction of the Pope, who was once basically the unofficial emperor of all of Christendom, to an essentially meaningless figurehead in global political affairs.

I see open and free access to information, which is now afforded by the internet to an ever-growing degree, as the potential to be a catalyst for another event of the same magnitude. What passes today as science is often a thinly-veiled religion all its own with little more consideration for reason than Catholicism in the 16th century, in all of the circles with influence anyway. Both political parties, and the corporations behind our media outlets, are certainly taking stances and pushing agendas with no rational goals in order to keep us at each other's throats, literally over topics of no real consequence and/or with no meaningful solution, in order to continue to consolidate and accumulate wealth and power. Money and power were previously the only way to effectively promote an idea, and when money and power are involved, that idea is usually nothing more than the vehicle for a veiled agenda. This is no longer the case. Anyone, of any means, can reach hundreds, thousands, even millions, with whatever message they like, so long as our current channels of information remain as free as possible of censorship.

In short, I see the dissemination of information, of all kinds, to be a net gain for our society, even with crackpots (or con artists, as I believe he may be) like Alex Jones in the mix. What's been called the new media, afforded to us by the internet, without censorship, at least affords us with the ideas and choices that those in the halls of power either ignore, or intentionally hide away. If history repeats itself, and I do think that it does, then we may well be on the brink of a modern reformation of sorts. Not specifically religious, but involving all that is currently regarded to be fact, all that's currently regarded to be reasonable, all that's currently regarded to be acceptable. We already see the beginnings of this today. It is already ugly, and it will get much worse, but I think that within a century or two we may come out of it in a much better position in terms of objectivity, or at least consideration for other viewpoints, in all aspects. All we need to do is make sure that these channels of free information remain open long enough to smash the status quo.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with populism. I honestly wonder if its divisiveness is itself a great example of people being brainwashed by the media. It is, in effect, the whole idea behind the people being those who bestow power on the government, and not the other way around. It is the embodiment of freedom itself. You could even say that it is the very idea behind representative government, and even socialism and communism. The danger is only that it is also the banner often waved by autocrats of all forms. I view nationalism similarly. We are all citizens of a nation. We abide by the laws of this nation. We contribute to, and have a stake in, its well-being. When our nation's economy is doing well, the people of our nation do better than if it is not. If we are not to be nationalistic, then there are only two logical conclusions as alternatives: Anarchy, or one world government. I don't know about you but, like our founders, I do not like even the idea of such a monumental concentration of power.

You can hate those currently in power, for whatever reasons you like, but don't conflate the meanings of very important terms.

I do not believe in completely unlimited freedom of speech, because that's also essentially anarchy, and defeats the purpose of government. The whole idea of government is that we have entered into a social contract that provides consequences for the trampling of the rights/freedoms of others. Our founders were wise to make the very exceptions that they did, as liberty is wonderful only so long as it doesn't inhibit the liberty/well-being of others. We see this today in our broken, and often corrupt, judicial system. People are often convicted or acquitted based primarily on the testimony of people who may or may not even be telling the truth, especially if they've made a deal with the prosecution. That's not fair at all to a defendant (or their potential victims), and should obviously not take place when it can be avoided. It is an extreme example, but one of the easiest to demonstrate. There must be consequences for actions that are wrongfully detrimental to our fellow man. If there are not, then there's little reason to have a government at all. The problem is making sure that government keeps its nose out of everything else.
« Last Edit: Wed, 27 May 2020, 16:33:56 by Maledicted »

Offline typo

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 12:55:28 »
This is not so much a conspiracy as a slap in the face. Trump has waived his own immigration ban. Since all the migrant workers are dying of covid. They need to replace them at any cost! I guess that kind of is a conspiracy. I mean that Human beings are expendable because they are of a "lesser" denomination. Is this any new news though? Just like Icke means Jews. This bias in our society is disgusting. I am surprised the NBA does not go pick the crops. They used to, you know..... It is a conspiracy because they are trying to hide this from the public. We are not all so stupid and can read law.

Offline DALExSNAIL

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 13:03:40 »
No "tp4 is a bot" theories?

Might be low hanging fruit I suppose.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 13:24:59 »
This is not so much a conspiracy as a slap in the face. Trump has waived his own immigration ban. Since all the migrant workers are dying of covid. They need to replace them at any cost! I guess that kind of is a conspiracy. I mean that Human beings are expendable because they are of a "lesser" denomination. Is this any new news though? Just like Icke means Jews. This bias in our society is disgusting. I am surprised the NBA does not go pick the crops. They used to, you know..... It is a conspiracy because they are trying to hide this from the public. We are not all so stupid and can read law.

I don't follow the specifics of the latest politics when I can help it. What is it exactly that you mean? Our unemployment is at an alarming level already, why in the world would we want to be importing other people right now when there are plenty of Americans out of work? Additionally, why would we want to introduce yet another possible vector for Covid transmission from foreign nations?

What is this about the NBA and crops? who are you directing this at, specifically? The fringe loon racists who certainly do exist to some extent, somewhere?

No "tp4 is a bot" theories?

Might be low hanging fruit I suppose.

I imagine that's just considered established fact.

Joking, tp4. We love you.

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 16:14:53 »
'Mal. Directed at ALL racists. Come on. they are all around us. Americans do not do those jobs. that is exactly what I meant! Just open the boarders and bring in more and more covid. So we can have fruit. Sometimes he does not think things through.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 16:34:56 »
'Mal. Directed at ALL racists. Come on. they are all around us. Americans do not do those jobs. that is exactly what I meant! Just open the boarders and bring in more and more covid. So we can have fruit. Sometimes he does not think things through.

Americans do not do what jobs? I don't think that there are many racists in this country, surely not nearly as many as the news on tv would suggest, since every time there's a group of 20 stupid skinheads goosestepping down some street they have to plaster it everywhere and act like it is a sign that they're somehow a broad swath of the population. I imagine there might be enough of them to actually still be detectable in certain communities in the south, but that's about it.

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 18:21:24 »
No, I mean casual racists not hardcore. Like people that just make racist jokes and stuff.  I know there are not a lot of skinheads and real neo-nazis luckily. I am a closer-older generation German. Around almost for Hitler. So I apologize for my people to Jews. I don't really have to but I think it is a good gesture. Anyways as far as "racists" I did not mean what you were thinking. I meant people that just don't "really" care all that much for black folks or whatever. The NBA was a complete joke relating to slavery due to the desperate measure of opening the Mexico boarder. Which as you said is the last thing we need right now. Americams do not do the job of picking berries. Migrant workers do that job. It is not racist. It is just a fact. They are all dying of covid. That is why he is bringing more people no questions asked. Funny about his original policy then, wall and all. Now we will be flooded with generationers of illegal citizens. It is ironic due to what he was elected on. I see his jam though. People want their fruit. The big issue is the humanitarianism of these vulnerable populations. They are after all, human beings. The ones with covid get no health care, die a horrid death. Bodies in mass graves. It is a conspiracy because it is far out on farms and they are trying to keep it from the public. You will not see this on Fox.

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 18:43:55 »

You will not see this on Fox.


This current nightmare has pulled back the curtain and exposed the vulnerability of our society.

The question is whether the majority of the population will recognize that for 4 decades the Republican Party has relentlessly and systematically dismantled the very fabric of our society, and all of the social structures and contracts that our citizens have come to rely on have been pulled out from under them.

Obama literally handed Trump the plan for preparing for and dealing with this, and Trump literally tossed it into the waste basket.
The difference in characterization of crime and who commits it skews what criminality looks like demographically. "What we're seeing so far is very similar to the process that we see with Islamic violent Jihad radicalization," said former FBI Assistant Director Frank Figliuzzi, "This wanting to belong to a cause greater than yourself, wanting to get affirmation from a group who may not even know who you are or ever met you. And then feeling like you're part of this deployment, this cause. You heard him say on the clip 'It's my job to protect this.'
No, it's not your job. But you think it is. And video last night shows him walking around roaming around with the assault rifle not really doing much of protecting anything." Figliuzzi made it clear that calling these characters "troubled" is a misnomer. "I would assert," Figliuzzi continued. "that it's time we stopped using the word ‘troubled’ with regard to white young people who act out like this and start thinking about the radicalized term that we used when people of color or people of Islamic faith act out like this. This is a radicalization process that's happening. It happened with the El Paso shooter in Texas. We kept hearing he was troubled. No, he was radicalized. And it's happening online."

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 20:40:19 »
fohat, that is an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. For the moment I shall refrain from stating if I agree or disagree. What I will say is, this is why we vote! Apparently in the last election the voting public liked Trump. I do have a feeling that this is about to change. Good or bad. I could be entirely wrong of course. I just want to point out that when someone blames either entire party it is solely their opinion. For ages either party under given circumstances has been effective. I do not vote for the party but rather the candidate. To that effect I feel Trump is a fine man. He is just sorely lacking in any qualification to be the President. That is my opinion. However history shall speak for itself. Most effective presidents were beforehand politicians themselves. Not of some other profession. To that effect I have a feeling that there is a certain Jewish Carpenter that could do the job better than anyone that had proceeded or followed him! Of course such a menial job is well below this specific individuals calling. For the record, I am being facetious. Please do not take this as if it is meant seriously.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 20:45:00 »
You are being baited into a race war, and looking at the people of Minneapolis destroying where they live and work I'd say it's working perfectly.

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 29 May 2020, 23:56:55 »
Turtle, is that directed at me? I do not see how that applies to what I just said? I do full agree with your statement however. Of all things why would angry people destroy their own home? That seems rather counterintuitive to me. If I were them I would have gone and destroyed the white mans neighborhood lol. Anyways I did say I was completely joking about what I had said. the point was about being unqualified for the job. You do something successfully with experience, not out of the gate. Like Microsoft Beta ware. It is sure to be no good. It is perfected(mostly) when it is released. For a very good reason. Hence, it being Beta! Pretty much every successful president in history was a politician. A senator for instance is a good fit for the job. Not some guy just walking in the door. Regardless of what they bring to the table. Be it business experience what have you. Not the same as knowledge of the inner workings of Washington. I do not Fault Trump. He is just lacking in skill for this position. Look. Mostly others are walking him through it.

If you meant previous comments of mine, you read it wrong. i am absolutely not racist! I was in fact concerened about protecting the rights of these people! Just letting Mexicans loose in the country does them no justice at all. For instance, where is their health care? Since they are most likely going to catch covid anyhow. The joke about the NBA was in relation to the Mexicans. You need to read things properly.

Unless, you were speaking of something else entirely?

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 30 May 2020, 03:17:22 »
I wasn't talking about you at all, that is manufactured guilt at play.

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 30 May 2020, 06:22:29 »
Oh. I am an idiot. I defended myself thinking it was me. Honestly I had no idea why it would be me. I am no racist. I truly believe all men and women are created equal. The whole thing I was upset those Mexicans were "pawns" and had no real rights here. That is not right at all. They are just as human as Donald Trump himself. I am by no means guilty either. I have personally never racially mistreated anyone. I never even tell racial jokes in private. The NBA was not so much a joke as a reality. Racism is alive and well. For instance you cannot tell me that police do not use "black" as probable cause. Or that most inmates are of color. Slavery is not really abolished. It has just changed form. I do not like it at all. Of course I cannot single handedly change this either. I personally would not build walls. I would build bridges. I would then just monitor who comes in. Just like we do right now. Not a lot of Mexicans are criminals. There are more gangs in the US already in place. The truth is no new wall has been built thus far anyhow. Now we are "inviting" them to come here and die. that kind of really sucks IMO. Plus the conspiracy is they did not want the public to know about this. How they treat those workers on a good day is simply disgusting.

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Re: Conspiracy Corner..
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 19 June 2020, 13:25:17 »
Starting to think they're doing this on purpose to kill old people //pensioners.