dat new XPS 9300 (Tp4spective)

[tp4tissue]

Do peeps even realize these new laptops are obsolete outta-the-box ?


It's over a $1000 bux for the base model (trash specs, basically a 2012 computer), even the highest model is a browser machine.

It won't play 4K HDR, nothing can short of a 1650 ti and above

It will play 4K netflix, but these machines overwhelmingly use IPS panels, making HDR fundamentally incompatible, as NO IPS has the contrast ratio necessary to render HDR color graded material.

They're Dolby Vision certified, which is Bull****, because again, IPS =/= HDR.

They offer a 4K P3-gamut panel, what's the point though, everything will look wrong, especially since windows doesn't have system wide color management.


Photoshop:  the P3 gamut kinda helps, but Adobe gamut is much better than P3 for Pshoppers, and honestly, the vast majority of pros do not work off of laptops. And anyone who does, probably doesn't even own a colorimeter to reign in the P3 problem.
-- This issue continues to plague amateur photoshoppers on macbooks w/ p3, their output looks messed up on the web due to saturation mismatch.

16:10, that's a plus, but it's a huge mistake to go down to the base, as it causes obstruction by fingers/hand.

Then there's the CPU, intel 1065g7 for xps 9300, the benchmark scores are incredibly low for sustained performance due to the aggressive power gating. Intel can't even hold the lead for single core benches anymore, and it loses by over 50% on multicore on equivalently priced 4-series AMD chips.

It has a sustained 15watt performance of 1.8 to 2ghz ,  that's Unusable.
It can barely hold  25 watt power limit  for 10 minutes ~3ghz.

ANY gaming laptop of the same price will run pretty much everything for 5+ years.   

You buy one of these 9300 xps,  it won't run well on 70% of the things out there today from the factory..


Realistically, No one should be buying laptops with anything less than a 1660Ti, EVEN if they don't game.

[HungerMechanic]

It's too bad to hear about these deficiencies, but 16:10 is a huge step forward for Dell. First laptop in a while I have considered buying.

If they can sort some of this out for the next iteration, it could be very competitive.

When will Dell bring out 3840x2400 for their desktop monitors?

[tp4tissue]

Tp4 fully supports 16:10,  but this implementation is bad. It's a major engineering mistake for the screen to go down to the hinge.  You hands and often reflection of hands obscure stuff, negating the benefit of having that extra vertical space.

If they're gonna slap the Dolby Vision label on things, At least offer an OLED option,  DolbyVision and IPS is a straight up LIE, and they know it.

[suicidal_orange]

Great to see the return of 16:10 (if I must go widescreen taller is better), shame it comes in a pointless package covered in marketing gimmicks.  Is there any money to be made by buying one and suing them for false advertising?

[tp4tissue]

Is there any money to be made by buying one and suing them for false advertising?

Unfortunately no,  they took the original HDR spec, and stretched it to fit whatever marketing wants.

Similar to the term "Organic", now everything is organic.

[Sniping]

whats new we all new dell wasn't innovating in the first place anything. i can't remember the last time they made something i was excited about. actually, i kind of like that 49" ultrawide but i feel like i only liked the idea of it. i tried using it and it wasn't my thing at all.

we should talk about apple silicon that ****s bouta be crazy

[noisyturtle]

If you're purchasing a laptop for gaming you are probably better off spending that money on a good psychologist.

[Leslieann]

*snickers* You guys still assume the average person buys a PC based on specs.

Half the systems on shelves wouldn't sell if that were the case.

[yui]

Do peeps even realize these new laptops are obsolete outta-the-box ?
16:10, that's a plus, but it's a huge mistake to go down to the base, as it causes obstruction by fingers/hand.

design > functionality, pretty much the story of all modern electronics.

Realistically, No one should be buying laptops with anything less than a 1660Ti, EVEN if they don't game.

there i do not agree, as a web developer i do not need a gpu at all so the lighter weight and much better battery life of a laptop without one is actually nice, this one is stupid, i do agree at that price i would expect something much better too but not every one want to decode hdr all day, for developer work high cpu performances and large-ish ram is far better than a 1660.

as for selling it the guy in the store will sell it to anyone saying "it is equipped with the high performance intel i7" not going further and the person buying will see 2000$ -> must be good and the beautiful design. Dell/intel do not need to care about the performances right now. intel's naming scheme is such a mess that no one can make any sense of anything without hours of research and so no one will care until they get it and in 3 months down the line it will run painfully slow.

[-Jerry-]

I've never understood why Dell insist on putting 4K panels in 13" laptops, it's like putting high megapixel counts on camera boxes; it looks impressive but means nothing.

[Leslieann]

there i do not agree, as a web developer i do not need a gpu at all so the lighter weight and much better battery life of a laptop without one is actually nice,

Absolutely, one size does not fit all.

I have no need for some heavy laptop that does everything, I have a desktop for that.

[-Jerry-]

Absolutely, one size does not fit all.

True enough, though I work at university so we try to do so anyway. We've got a tender for ThinkPads, so when somebody wants a laptop (unless they can give a very good reason why they need something different) they get offered a 13in or 14in model with i5/8GB or i7/16GB. Funnily enough most people are unable to sufficiently prove that they need anything else. I usually point out that if they were good enough for NASA...*

*conveniently ignoring that NASA use a mix of ThinkPads and HPs on the ISS now

[tp4tissue]

I've never understood why Dell insist on putting 4K panels in 13" laptops, it's like putting high megapixel counts on camera boxes; it looks impressive but means nothing.

They do it for the Upsell. They need some gimmick that costs almost exactly the same as the regular option, but charge you a huge difference in markup..

YES, 4K panels cost almost the same as a regular panel.

[Leslieann]

Because 4k is one spec the average person understands.

Intel (and later AMD), have purposely named their product in a way to confuse customers, people understand ram and some understand what an SSD is but 4k is an easy thing to tell people and make them think something is better.

[tp4tissue]

Because 4k is one spec the average person understands.

People may understand that 4K is a bigger number,  but they don't quite understand why it's better, and the numerous image quality cases where it can be WORSE than 1080p (full HD)

[Leslieann]

People know 4k because of TV and Blueray.

I don't even think they know it means a bigger number so much as it's familiar.

[yui]

Because 4k is one spec the average person understands.

People may understand that 4K is a bigger number,  but they don't quite understand why it's better, and the numerous image quality cases where it can be WORSE than 1080p (full HD)

tp4 promoting 1080p over 4k? are you feeling well?

[tp4tissue]

People may understand that 4K is a bigger number,  but they don't quite understand why it's better, and the numerous image quality cases where it can be WORSE than 1080p (full HD)

tp4 promoting 1080p over 4k? are you feeling well?

4K is a critical element to life, right below water.

Tp4 is saying that most people misunderstands 4K and don't realize that Good-image quality has many other dependencies.

[-Jerry-]

Tp4 is saying that most people misunderstands 4K and don't realize that Good-image quality has many other dependencies. [/size][/color][/font]

Person builds UBER PC with 2080TI
Person buys 144hz 4K monitor.
Person expects many frames per second.
Person is sorely disappointed.

And for imaging, people looking at just the resolution will be sad. Much like people who just look at megapixel count. Or core count.

[tp4tissue]

Tp4 is saying that most people misunderstands 4K and don't realize that Good-image quality has many other dependencies. [/size][/color][/font]

Person builds UBER PC with 2080TI
Person buys 144hz 4K monitor.
Person expects many frames per second.
Person is sorely disappointed.

And for imaging, people looking at just the resolution will be sad. Much like people who just look at megapixel count. Or core count.

Part of that,

Tp4 is mainly talking about:

Bitrate
Bitdepth
Dithering
Gamma tracking
Black level
Dynamic range
Frame Cadence
Color accuracy
Chroma Subsampling
Gamut
Scaling algorithms
Phosphor Persistence.
Motion blur (pixel transition)
Light leakage
Transmission efficiency

So many factors to consider.

[WholesomeDucky]

I don't even buy laptops anymore tbh. I just have my desktop for home and a decent Chromebook for travel (Samsung Chromebook Plus v1)

Honestly laptops haven't been interesting to me in a long time. I ALMOST bought a macbook pro a couple years ago, but then they came out with those god-awful keyboards and I decided against it.

[yui]

I don't even buy laptops anymore tbh. I just have my desktop for home and a decent Chromebook for travel (Samsung Chromebook Plus v1)

Honestly laptops haven't been interesting to me in a long time. I ALMOST bought a macbook pro a couple years ago, but then they came out with those god-awful keyboards and I decided against it.

to me chromebooks are laptops and yeah if the only other laptops that you consider are macs you are better off without one, apple has not made any interesting computers in decades. if you look at the competition there is even desktops in laptop computers that exists, laptops have their uses. tbh i could live without my towers if i only had my laptop(s) and the reverse is also true just far less convenient.

[WholesomeDucky]

I don't even buy laptops anymore tbh. I just have my desktop for home and a decent Chromebook for travel (Samsung Chromebook Plus v1)

Honestly laptops haven't been interesting to me in a long time. I ALMOST bought a macbook pro a couple years ago, but then they came out with those god-awful keyboards and I decided against it.

to me chromebooks are laptops and yeah if the only other laptops that you consider are macs you are better off without one, apple has not made any interesting computers in decades. if you look at the competition there is even desktops in laptop computers that exists, laptops have their uses. tbh i could live without my towers if i only had my laptop(s) and the reverse is also true just far less convenient.

It's not that MBP is the only other laptop I'd consider, I'm just a fan of the physical design (well, other than the atrocious cooling). I don't use or like MacOS, but I do think it has it's place, especially at a time when the quality of Windows has been steadily declining IMO. That said, Apple's policies and practices as a company have pretty much solidified that I will not buy another product from them in my lifetime. Their planned obsolescence and disgusting repair policies put me off of them for good.

"to me chromebooks are laptops" That is good! There are too many people out there who think they are nothing more than web browsers, when that hasn't been true for a while. Being able to run Play Store apps and a Linux container has allowed them to do SO much more. As long as it's not a high performance application like (non-mobile) gaming or video editing, chances are you can do it on a Chromebook, just with a different workflow.

[tp4tissue]

Chromebooks runs chromeos, HARD PASS.

It's as if you're willingly inviting fascism into your workflow. NO THANKS. 

[tp4tissue]

I'm not sure one can truly be last of a bloodline, when 99.99% of human DNA is shared.

On the opposite end, if the contention is that one person is unique, well then every circumstance and every quantized arrangement in the universe is unique, and that makes any such person all the less special, thus infinitely not worth preserving..

[-Jerry-]

I don't even buy laptops anymore tbh. I just have my desktop for home and a decent Chromebook for travel (Samsung Chromebook Plus v1)

Yeah, I'd barely get any use out of a laptop, considering that I have a perfectly good desktop.

I've made do with iPads for portable computing for the past decade and there's now not much I can't do on one that I need when not at my desk and even if there is, with good enough home internet and 4G, I can just RDP into my home system and get a full OS. It's ridiculously expensive, perhaps too much, but I can honestly say that the Magic Keyboard case has been the best thing Apple has brought out for iPad in it's entirely history with the exception of the Pencil. It genuinely now feels like a little laptop when I want to type and a tablet when I want to read or browse.

[WholesomeDucky]

Chromebooks runs chromeos, HARD PASS.

It's as if you're willingly inviting fascism into your workflow. NO THANKS. 

"Facism"? Is there an explanation there or are we just saying words for fun now?

Also much like any other computer, you can run linux if you are that worried about it lol

I'm not sure one can truly be last of a bloodline, when 99.99% of human DNA is shared.

On the opposite end, if the contention is that one person is unique, well then every circumstance and every quantized arrangement in the universe is unique, and that makes any such person all the less special, thus infinitely not worth preserving..

Please don't post and do drugs at same time tp4

[tp4tissue]

"Facism"? Is there an explanation there or are we just saying words for fun now?

Also much like any other computer, you can run linux if you are that worried about it lol

The google platform directly controls the probability of what you see and are exposed to on the internet.  That is fascism.

Let's say google needs to pass a legislation, they directly control search traffic to support the senator that supports the bill that google wrote and handed to such senator w/ a wad of campaign donations.  YES, Fascism.

They don't need to be overt, all they need to do, is adjust the frequency of news/search results  of the Pros/Cons, say 40/60,  and this could generate enormous ideological pressure against that elected official, or they can do the opposite for proponents.

The most critical mindset to have in moderna is DISTRUST of the system.

[WholesomeDucky]

"Facism"? Is there an explanation there or are we just saying words for fun now?

Also much like any other computer, you can run linux if you are that worried about it lol

The google platform directly controls the probability of what you see and are exposed to on the internet.  That is fascism.

Let's say google needs to pass a legislation, they directly control search traffic to support the senator that supports the bill that google wrote and handed to such senator w/ a wad of campaign donations.  YES, Fascism.

They don't need to be overt, all they need to do, is adjust the frequency of news/search results  of the Pros/Cons, say 40/60,  and this could generate enormous ideological pressure against that elected official, or they can do the opposite for proponents.

The most critical mindset to have in moderna is DISTRUST of the system.

So you don't want people to use Google the search engine.....which you don't have to do, even if you are running ChromeOS.

You're definitely making a point, and a good one, but it has almost nothing to do with Chromebooks.

[-Jerry-]

So you don't want people to use Google the search engine.....which you don't have to do, even if you are running ChromeOS.

You're definitely making a point, and a good one, but it has almost nothing to do with Chromebooks.

One would imagine the implication is that being ChromeOS, it is tied heavily into Google’s suite of webapps. Certainly, you don’t HAVE to use them, but most people will. Even if you switch to using DDG or any of the other alternative engines, you’ll still be providing a certain amount of analytical data to Google through your use of other parts of the platform. The Google ecosystem is such that if you’re not paying them a business subscription, there’s absolutely no reason for them not to grab every data point available from you because you are the product. Nothing comes truly for free.

[WholesomeDucky]

So you don't want people to use Google the search engine.....which you don't have to do, even if you are running ChromeOS.

You're definitely making a point, and a good one, but it has almost nothing to do with Chromebooks.

One would imagine the implication is that being ChromeOS, it is tied heavily into Google’s suite of webapps. Certainly, you don’t HAVE to use them, but most people will. Even if you switch to using DDG or any of the other alternative engines, you’ll still be providing a certain amount of analytical data to Google through your use of other parts of the platform. The Google ecosystem is such that if you’re not paying them a business subscription, there’s absolutely no reason for them not to grab every data point available from you because you are the product. Nothing comes truly for free.

Agree completely. MS, Google, Apple, and just about everyone else are collecting insane amounts of data from users on a daily basis, it's absolutely out of control. But, what they do with that data and what we as consumers can do to limit that collection is what matters. The idea that Google is facist because they use analytics and data collection to show people what they want to see is, quite frankly, rediculous.

In the context of "most people" (being, I assume, people who don't know s*** about computers), they are going to have their data collected by Google, MS (or apple), and Facebook anyway because they do not care, or are uninformed to the point of it not crossing their mind in the first place.

"Google bad" is a valid argument, but it's not a valid reason to say all Chromebooks are trash IMO. Anyone who cares enough about data collection will be running some distro of linux anyway, so at that point the brand of machine is irrelevant, and the advantages/disadvantages of a thin, high-battery-life ARM laptop are still present.

[tp4tissue]

So you don't want people to use Google the search engine.....which you don't have to do, even if you are running ChromeOS.

You're definitely making a point, and a good one, but it has almost nothing to do with Chromebooks.

One would imagine the implication is that being ChromeOS, it is tied heavily into Google’s suite of webapps. Certainly, you don’t HAVE to use them, but most people will. Even if you switch to using DDG or any of the other alternative engines, you’ll still be providing a certain amount of analytical data to Google through your use of other parts of the platform. The Google ecosystem is such that if you’re not paying them a business subscription, there’s absolutely no reason for them not to grab every data point available from you because you are the product. Nothing comes truly for free.

Exactly right user:jerry,    We must undergo extensive personal behavior management to curtail the google mindspace manipulations. Their machine is the halo product of the dystopian society we now inhabit.

Do not use google systems when possible. Distance from it as much as practicality allows..

[tp4tissue]

"Google bad" is a valid argument, but it's not a valid reason to say all Chromebooks are trash IMO. Anyone who cares enough about data collection will be running some distro of linux anyway, so at that point the brand of machine is irrelevant

It is not a certainty that every chromebook hardware set is fully detachable from custom architectures and hidden hardware microcode backdoors they may have implanted in the machines.

I'm not making an argument against hardware, but if we're agreeing it is better for the public at large to NOT run ChromeOs,   Then why buy into the ecosystem at all, why give the fascists any money.

The safest and most practical option, is lenovo X220, it's been vetted by blackhats and whitehats. A well understood machine, including the afflicted exploits.

[WholesomeDucky]

"Google bad" is a valid argument, but it's not a valid reason to say all Chromebooks are trash IMO. Anyone who cares enough about data collection will be running some distro of linux anyway, so at that point the brand of machine is irrelevant

It is not a certainty that every chromebook hardware set is fully detachable from custom architectures and hidden hardware microcode backdoors they may have implanted in the machines.

I'm not making an argument against hardware, but if we're agreeing it is better for the public at large to NOT run ChromeOs,   Then why buy into the ecosystem at all, why give the fascists any money.

The safest and most practical option, is lenovo X220, it's been vetted by blackhats and whitehats. A well understood machine, including the afflicted exploits.

I feel as if you're just throwing out buzzwords now. ARM is not a "custom architecture" by any practical definition, and "hidden hardware microcode backdoors" just sounds like a string of words someone would come up with after watching far too many hacker movies.

You insist that Google is fascist without any evidence that they've done anything fascist ("they could manipulate search engine data" isn't evidence that they've done anything, and if we're counting the bad things a company COULD do, then by your logic every major company on the planet is fascist).

Based on what I've read so far this clearly isn't a discussion that's even worth having, nothing will come of it.

[-Jerry-]

I feel as if you're just throwing out buzzwords now. ARM is not a "custom architecture" by any practical definition, and "hidden hardware microcode backdoors" just sounds like a string of words someone would come up with after watching far too many hacker movies.

As somebody in cyber security, it's worth pointing out that that the phrase does at least make sense logically. You can get backdoors in CPUs if the microcode is compromised and microcode patches do happen and can likewise be compromised, meaning that it's theoretically possible (and there have been a couple of demos and whitepapers demonstrating this) to introduce undetectable (i.e. hidden) malware with the CPU. Just rather hard.

[tp4tissue]

I feel as if you're just throwing out buzzwords now. ARM is not a "custom architecture" by any practical definition, and "hidden hardware microcode backdoors" just sounds like a string of words someone would come up with after watching far too many hacker movies.

As somebody in cyber security, it's worth pointing out that that the phrase does at least make sense logically. You can get backdoors in CPUs if the microcode is compromised and microcode patches do happen and can likewise be compromised, meaning that it's theoretically possible (and there have been a couple of demos and whitepapers demonstrating this) to introduce undetectable (i.e. hidden) malware with the CPU. Just rather hard.

the problem here is alot of novice computer users are ignorant of the machine itself.  Even alot of programmers are in the dark despite working in a computer environment all day.

It's like telling a karen that she needs an oil change, and she reponds, I put gas in it all the time. 

Then they give you an attitude, any words not in their vocabulary is fake news, made up.

[WholesomeDucky]

As somebody in cyber security, it's worth pointing out that that the phrase does at least make sense logically. You can get backdoors in CPUs if the microcode is compromised and microcode patches do happen and can likewise be compromised, meaning that it's theoretically possible (and there have been a couple of demos and whitepapers demonstrating this) to introduce undetectable (i.e. hidden) malware with the CPU. Just rather hard.

Absolutely, it is a real phrase/concept, not debating that in any way. It's just described here in a way that 99% of people (even those in cyber, which I used to be before moving to a more sysadmin-focused position) would never use. It's describing a backdoor in the most convoluted way possible. Does nothing but create confusion, either because the person just describes things strangely, or because they are intentionally trying to appear overly-intelligent. Virtually no one who wasn't writing a research paper would ever string those words together, doubly so on a hobbyist forum dedicated to something completely unrelated.

I feel as if you're just throwing out buzzwords now. ARM is not a "custom architecture" by any practical definition, and "hidden hardware microcode backdoors" just sounds like a string of words someone would come up with after watching far too many hacker movies.

As somebody in cyber security, it's worth pointing out that that the phrase does at least make sense logically. You can get backdoors in CPUs if the microcode is compromised and microcode patches do happen and can likewise be compromised, meaning that it's theoretically possible (and there have been a couple of demos and whitepapers demonstrating this) to introduce undetectable (i.e. hidden) malware with the CPU. Just rather hard.

the problem here is alot of novice computer users are ignorant of the machine itself.  Even alot of programmers are in the dark despite working in a computer environment all day.

It's like telling a karen that she needs an oil change, and she reponds, I put gas in it all the time. 

Then they give you an attitude, any words not in their vocabulary is fake news, made up.

I love the implication that I'm a "karen", "novice", or that I think what you said is made up/fake news. I never said nor believed any of those things. Your posts reek of superiority. I'm not here to be talked down to by someone who chooses the most complicated words possible so that they appear smart online, instead of just using the terminology that 99% of the world (even those in the industry being discussed) use. Enjoy your baseless paranoia. Be sure to come back next time so you can tell us all how Microsoft is fascist. Then maybe next month Apple can be fascist, too.

[Leslieann]

It's not that MBP is the only other laptop I'd consider, I'm just a fan of the physical design (well, other than the atrocious cooling). I don't use or like MacOS, but I do think it has it's place, especially at a time when the quality of Windows has been steadily declining IMO.

This is why I use an older 11in Air.
It's tiny but does what I need, plenty of power, and battery, similar size to a Chromebook.

Chromebooks runs chromeos, HARD PASS.

This is fixable on at least some of them.

Kind of waiting to see the ARM based Macbooks as that could be quite interesting for ARM based Linux. I'd do it on a Chromebook, but the only ones with a decent amount of memory are still too costly for experimentation. ARM Linux is far more capable than people think.

[yui]

frankly tp if you use any products from microsoft, amazon, google, apple, cisco... you will be tracked, microsoft maybe being the worst at it with their telemetry that will re-enable itself at every chance it has without warning the user, capturing every keystroke and then adding ads to your bar, and changing your bing results.
And google has proven times and times again that 1 they will show you what you want to see so you stay longer and make them more money and that 2 they have no control over what the AI shows you, so yeah likely not gonna be today that they start tailoring results to their political beliefs.
For the chromebooks at worse you can run them on chromiumOS (google free version of chromeOS upon which chromeOS is built)

[-Jerry-]

microsoft maybe being the worst at it with their telemetry that will re-enable itself at every chance it has without warning the user, capturing every keystroke and then adding ads to your bar, and changing your bing results.

I'm not all that worried about Microsoft, tbh, since at least their data exfiltration attempts are at least fairly transparent and entirely possible to block with properly cultivated DNS block lists. Doing that with Google seems to block access to half the stuff you're trying to use. Then again, I have to use 365 products at work, so I've really not got much choice but to be okay with it. Plus since I run a 365 business account for my personal email, I'm confident enough in their encryption policies and geo restrictions.

[yui]

what i was trying to say is that except if you use a full free linux and no online services you will be tracked and dns blocking of windows telemetry is not something Mr. everybody can do, as was tp's argument and also they seem to sometime change servers. it is a choose your poison kind of situation really, until linux gets accepted by the masses.

[Leslieann]

I 'm not all that worried about Microsoft, tbh, since at least their data exfiltration attempts are at least fairly transparent and entirely possible to block with properly cultivated DNS block lists.

DNS info is hardcoded into Win10, unless you use an external firewall it's going right through, there's no way to stop this on the system itself short of disabling everything with aftermarket tools, which breaks all sorts of system functions (even then you may not stop all of it or an update will break it). Same for Chrome, adblocking and tracking protection stops you from seeing it, but Google still tracks you quite easily.

Unfortunately it takes very few rules to bog down common router/firewalls unless you have enterprise grade equipment or built your own.

Fear both, them and Facebook (as well as a few others) all want to tie this data to not just a person, but also your credit score, which it will effect.

[-Jerry-]

I 'm not all that worried about Microsoft, tbh, since at least their data exfiltration attempts are at least fairly transparent and entirely possible to block with properly cultivated DNS block lists.

DNS info is hardcoded into Win10, unless you use an external firewall it's going right through, there's no way to stop this on the system itself short of disabling everything with aftermarket tools, which breaks all sorts of system functions (even then you may not stop all of it or an update will break it). Same for Chrome, adblocking and tracking protection stops you from seeing it, but Google still tracks you quite easily.

Unfortunately it takes very few rules to bog down common router/firewalls unless you have enterprise grade equipment or built your own.

I run PiHole at the network level with a blocklist of around 1M domains, haha. That blackholes most of Microsoft's known telemetry services and they're all read from Git sources, so get updated with varying regularity. It does mean that I sometimes have to do some log parsing to work out why something isn't loading so I can manually whitelist, but there are browser extensions that make that easy enough like the Adam:One Assistant. I do run enterprise grade stuff (or near enough) most of the time, because I can get stuff as we replace it from where I work sometimes. Running Unifi APs and recently upgraded from their Security Gateway to their Dream Machine because it can handle running their IPS system (really just suracata with the emerging threats ruleset) at near gigabit speeds, whereas their enterprise grade rack mount gateway can only handle around 400mbps. Annnnnd I run a Security Onion instance on a tap port so I get snort and ntopng alerts.

[yui]

I run PiHole at the network level with a blocklist of around 1M domains, haha. That blackholes most of Microsoft's known telemetry services and they're all read from Git sources, so get updated with varying regularity. It does mean that I sometimes have to do some log parsing to work out why something isn't loading so I can manually whitelist, but there are browser extensions that make that easy enough like the Adam:One Assistant. I do run enterprise grade stuff (or near enough) most of the time, because I can get stuff as we replace it from where I work sometimes. Running Unifi APs and recently upgraded from their Security Gateway to their Dream Machine because it can handle running their IPS system (really just suracata with the emerging threats ruleset) at near gigabit speeds, whereas their enterprise grade rack mount gateway can only handle around 400mbps. Annnnnd I run a Security Onion instance on a tap port so I get snort and ntopng alerts.

can we both agree that this is not what a normal user will go through? even me i do not, mostly because i do not want to have a pi doing that job and an energy efficient pc for routing is kinda expensive, so imagine the Mr. everybody who needed help plugging in his modem and needs to call someone every time he wants to connect something to wifi (he calls it "the internet") it is not because you can with 10000 $ worth of enterprise grade material stop all known telemetry that anyone else can, and who knows if all telemetry is known.

[-Jerry-]

can we both agree that this is not what a normal user will go through? even me i do not, mostly because i do not want to have a pi doing that job and an energy efficient pc for routing is kinda expensive, so imagine the Mr. everybody who needed help plugging in his modem and needs to call someone every time he wants to connect something to wifi (he calls it "the internet") it is not because you can with 10000 $ worth of enterprise grade material stop all known telemetry that anyone else can, and who knows if all telemetry is known.

Sure, I had started that post with “I’m not an average user..” but I thought it sounded a bit wanky.

However, I’d argue that it doesn’t take $10000 of enterprise equipment. Hell, even the UDM and APs only came to about $600 all told. The only thing you need to block the telemetry is a Pi, so you’re looking at $100 max for a Pi + Case + SD + USB power supply. Yes, it’s not for the average user and I wouldn’t suggest it to my mother, for example, but it’s not prohibitively expensive nor hard. I’m not sure what your issue would be regarding a Pi doing that job, since the PiHole software was designed with the capabilities of a Pi in mind. Mine has been running for two years without issues and I run a Homebridge server on their too. Never see CPU go above 50% usage - serving DNS requests isn’t all that taxing.

[yui]

Sure, I had started that post with “I’m not an average user..” but I thought it sounded a bit wanky.

However, I’d argue that it doesn’t take $10000 of enterprise equipment. Hell, even the UDM and APs only came to about $600 all told. The only thing you need to block the telemetry is a Pi, so you’re looking at $100 max for a Pi + Case + SD + USB power supply. Yes, it’s not for the average user and I wouldn’t suggest it to my mother, for example, but it’s not prohibitively expensive nor hard. I’m not sure what your issue would be regarding a Pi doing that job, since the PiHole software was designed with the capabilities of a Pi in mind. Mine has been running for two years without issues and I run a Homebridge server on their too. Never see CPU go above 50% usage - serving DNS requests isn’t all that taxing.

my problem with the pi is its reliability, or lack thereof, usb power supplies and sd cards are some of the least reliable things around and the pi itself is not really a great fit for that job either, as at least in my experience they can crash with no apparent reasons and they have a lot of useless capabilities for that job

[-Jerry-]

my problem with the pi is its reliability, or lack thereof, usb power supplies and sd cards are some of the least reliable things around and the pi itself is not really a great fit for that job either, as at least in my experience they can crash with no apparent reasons and they have a lot of useless capabilities for that job

Well as I say, I’d contest that - with a reliable enough USB power supply you shouldn’t have any issues for several years. The only time mine has ever gone down is when I’ve had to disconnect power for some reason. Power cuts or brown outs aren’t really a thing that happens regularly here and even if they ever did, so long as you’ve got the services set up right it comes back online within 30s or so.

[Shapey Fiend]

I use an Inspiron 5570 laptop as my daily driver because I do a ton of autocad and I need something relatively speedy. I very, very rarely play any games on the thing.

Main problem is with the power brick it weighs a ton. I'm due an upgrade and I'd love something a bit lighter to haul around that costs less than a thousand euro. Unless you spend two grand it seems you can have light or fast but not both.

[Leslieann]

I run PiHole at the network level with a blocklist of around 1M domains, haha.

Sorry, nope.

A Pihole is a personal DNS server, dns servers translate domain names to IP addresses, that's all it does. On domains you block it sends them to a different location, i.e. a honeypot or blackhole. Anything referencing an IP address never talks to a DNS server, it already has that info so it heads straight for the gateway and onto the internet.

The only way to stop this is a firewall directly between you and the internet, your pihole is not a firewall, nor does it sit between you and the internet.



And I'm with Yui,
Pis are notoriously unreliable, not because of the Pi, the card. The cards are cheap, don't have a long life cycle and worse, if you have a power failure during a read or write the data can be completely corrupted. This is why I laugh at people running NAS boxes from USB sticks and sdcards, this type of memory is well known for corrupting on power loss.

[-Jerry-]

I run PiHole at the network level with a blocklist of around 1M domains, haha.

Sorry, nope.

A Pihole is a personal DNS server, dns servers translate domain names to IP addresses, that's all it does. On domains you block it sends them to a different location, i.e. a honeypot or blackhole. Anything referencing an IP address never talks to a DNS server, it already has that info so it heads straight for the gateway and onto the internet.

The only way to stop this is a firewall directly between you and the internet, your pihole is not a firewall, nor does it sit between you and the internet.

As I understand it, while Microsoft can failover to IP address, it typically doesn’t and general advise is not to rely on IP address for any kind of telemetry blocking because while Microsoft can and do change IP ranges regularly for security, they don’t change DNS registrations. Yes, your point is valid that a device can bypass DNS resolution by not needing it on account of already having the IP, but I’ve yet to see any evidence of Microsoft doing that. My Zeek logs from my SecurityOnion box (which while not between my PC and the internet, IS doing full packet capture) seems to confirm this; I’ve checked some of the most common Microsoft telemetry services that I know are blocked (because they show up regularly in my PiHole logs) against dnsdumpster for up to date IPs and I can’t see any record of those IPs being contacted in the past 14 days. Ntopng’s live traffic analysis agrees with this.

If I ever stop seeing Microsoft addresses popping up in my logs, I’ll have reason to suspect Windows has started using IPs, so while as I previously mentioned, I DO have a firewall, I don’t see the need to implement IP rules until that point. Which is good, because that would be a complete pain to maintain given they change every now and then. I fully admit that my logic may be flawed, I’m not a networking specialist, but I can’t find an evidence to suggest that it’s not working as I’d expect. I’d be more than happy to be proved wrong though and have a reason to make it more secure

And I'm with Yui,
Pis are notoriously unreliable, not because of the Pi, the card. The cards are cheap, don't have a long life cycle and worse, if you have a power failure during a read or write the data can be completely corrupted. This is why I laugh at people running NAS boxes from USB sticks and sdcards, this type of memory is well known for corrupting on power loss.

Sure, can’t argue with card wear - I fully expect to only get another year or two our of the Sandisk card I’ve put in mine. It has however been running for two years with no issues, so I can’t complain. I’m fortunate to live in a fairly reliable location as far as power supply goes, we’ve not suffered more than one power cut a year since I’ve lived here and since the Hue bulbs never switch to ‘I’ve just lost power and come back” set levels, I don’t have any reason to believe we suffer brown outs either, so I guess reliability may be variable based on circumstance. What suits one person may not suit another, it’s fair to say. I could run PiHole on the ubuntu server box I have running Security Onion, but I’m quite attached to the little Pi to be honest.