Author Topic: So, Covid  (Read 9028 times)

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Offline jamster

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #100 on: Tue, 29 December 2020, 19:58:14 »
The concept of "herd immunity" is talked about but the opposite side is a sort of "herd contagion"

As long as the R number is >1 we will not be out of the woods, and even then there will be a huge reservoir of infected people to work through.

That is a much better way of putting it. I find it hard to fathom many of the contorted, self-serving, dumbass/flat-out-evil (depending on how charitable one is feeling), ideas that have come out of this pandemic. Reading about the UK government tap dance its way around the 'herd immunity' idea was a good example.

Reading about various countries and how their populations respond to the survey questions about willingness to take vaccines is the lastest 'WTF' issue.
« Last Edit: Tue, 29 December 2020, 20:00:31 by jamster »

Online yui

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #101 on: Wed, 30 December 2020, 13:48:27 »
Mutation is the problem now.   If this goes around like the flu after a couple years.   Fury road here we come.

We have to go whole food plant based immediately. This is urgent.

TP stop going full ostrich mode, VEGANISM WILL DO NOTHING AGAINST COVID, absolutely nothing, the only thing that can do anything is either peoples following the rules (work from home at a maximum, mask, no gathering...), government enforcing the rules (still considering anti-masker and anti-vaccer bio-terrorists), or full on lockdown for much longer. you are actually making everything worse here with your message because peoples will believe you and think that mask are optional as they stopped eating meat... i have arguments with anti maskers on a regular by now and there are more and more of them... so sure if you want to see the world burn continue spreading false information about veganism and how it can save you from all that exists (spoiler alert IT DOES NOT).
i have no issues with you being vegan, frankly go for it, but for **** sake stop forcing it down peoples throat in every discussions even when there is no reason to, you just give vegans a very bad reputation, and really as a movement you do not need more bad reputation...
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Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #102 on: Wed, 30 December 2020, 14:07:40 »
Mutation is the problem now.   If this goes around like the flu after a couple years.   Fury road here we come.

We have to go whole food plant based immediately. This is urgent.

TP stop going full ostrich mode, VEGANISM WILL DO NOTHING AGAINST COVID, absolutely nothing, the only thing that can do anything is either peoples following the rules (work from home at a maximum, mask, no gathering...), government enforcing the rules (still considering anti-masker and anti-vaccer bio-terrorists), or full on lockdown for much longer. you are actually making everything worse here with your message because peoples will believe you and think that mask are optional as they stopped eating meat... i have arguments with anti maskers on a regular by now and there are more and more of them... so sure if you want to see the world burn continue spreading false information about veganism and how it can save you from all that exists (spoiler alert IT DOES NOT).
i have no issues with you being vegan, frankly go for it, but for **** sake stop forcing it down peoples throat in every discussions even when there is no reason to, you just give vegans a very bad reputation, and really as a movement you do not need more bad reputation...

This made me enjoy my steak and barbacoa burrito bowl even more, lol.   But yeah I see multiple anti-maskers daily and even in store that have a mask policy and wonder wtf.  I just chalk up a mask as a price of admission into a store and work at this point (sure having to wear it annoys me but I get over it since it is what it is).

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #103 on: Wed, 30 December 2020, 15:09:12 »
TP stop going full ostrich mode, VEGANISM WILL DO NOTHING AGAINST COVID, absolutely nothing, the only thing that can do anything is either peoples following the rules (work from home at a maximum, mask, no gathering...), government enforcing the rules (still considering anti-masker and anti-vaccer bio-terrorists), or full on lockdown for much longer. you are actually making everything worse here with your message because peoples will believe you and think that mask are optional as they stopped eating meat... i have arguments with anti maskers on a regular by now and there are more and more of them... so sure if you want to see the world burn continue spreading false information about veganism and how it can save you from all that exists (spoiler alert IT DOES NOT).
i have no issues with you being vegan, frankly go for it, but for **** sake stop forcing it down peoples throat in every discussions even when there is no reason to, you just give vegans a very bad reputation, and really as a movement you do not need more bad reputation...

Tp4 is not vegan.  Tp4 is Whole Food Plant Based.

Yui, I've always chosen not to fight you directly because you want to win (an argument) more than you want to research the matter.

Going plant based significantly strengthens the immune system, even if someone catches covid, it will help them get through it.

Tp4 never claimed that eating veggies mean that you don't have to wear a mask,  Tp4 will be wearing masks for the next 5-10 years depending on how this civil war goes.


As for the MACRO event,  ALL MAJOR PANDEMICS have been Zoonotic. That is just a historical fact. 

Chickens - Typhoid
Camels - Camelpox ->Smallpox
Aquatic fowl (Ducks) - Influenza
Cows/Sheep - Rhinderpest -> Measles
Pigs -> Whooping Cough, SwineFlu
Bats -> Pangolin - COVID.

This is why it's critical that we switch to Either Lab-grown-meat or VEGGIES.

But in General, YES, M0ar Veggies is the only solution to Climate change and future pandemics.

Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #104 on: Wed, 30 December 2020, 15:55:00 »
You realize w/out even eating said animals the diseases can still spread.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #105 on: Wed, 30 December 2020, 16:00:37 »
You realize w/out even eating said animals the diseases can still spread.

Good question Darthbaggins,  Check out this video, it explains WHY animal agriculture MAGNIFIES the diseases by several orders of magnitude.


Online yui

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #106 on: Wed, 30 December 2020, 17:04:17 »

Tp4 is not vegan.  Tp4 is Whole Food Plant Based.

fair enough, i do not see the diference to be honest as i thought the point of veganism was that you only ate plant based stuff, i guess i was wrong.

Yui, I've always chosen not to fight you directly because you want to win (an argument) more than you want to research the matter.

well i usually only get into arguments about matters i researched a bit before hand, or that someone i trust has done, maybe should remove that 2nd part.

Going plant based significantly strengthens the immune system, even if someone catches covid, it will help them get through it.

2 problems there:
1- there are studies showing that, plant based does nothing, strengthen and weakens the immune system, so yeah, and from a biology stand point i do not see it making much sense at all
2- either way covid-19 does not kill, the immune system over-react and does in most cases, so that would be a negative here

Tp4 never claimed that eating veggies mean that you don't have to wear a mask,  Tp4 will be wearing masks for the next 5-10 years depending on how this civil war goes.


no you did not but the kind of peoples who do not want to wear a mask will cling onto anything not to wear it, so do not give them ammunition to kill us all


As for the MACRO event,  ALL MAJOR PANDEMICS have been Zoonotic. That is just a historical fact. 

Chickens - Typhoid
Camels - Camelpox ->Smallpox
Aquatic fowl (Ducks) - Influenza
Cows/Sheep - Rhinderpest -> Measles
Pigs -> Whooping Cough, SwineFlu
Bats -> Pangolin - COVID.


well yes diseases do evolve, although it is rather random, and it does go both way, but well were do you want the new disease to come from, other humans? did you ever hear of the flu? it mutates fast enough to be dangerous every year.


This is why it's critical that we switch to Either Lab-grown-meat or VEGGIES.


it would reduce slightly the vectors, true, but to eliminate the problem you would actually need to kill off all wildlife, or prevent any interaction between human and other life, so yeah possible but will not work much better


But in General, YES, M0ar Veggies is the only solution to Climate change and future pandemics.

to climate change, it is part of the solution, to pandemic i maintain it is not, both are widely different problems and require different solutions, for pandemics the solutions would be:
 better hygiene, animal and human alike,
 proper mask protection and insulation in cases of symptoms, something our society stigmatize, should look at Asia for a decent example,
 lower population density,
 and for the love of all that is good take your vaccines, some diseases are coming back thanks to anti-vaccers.
although it is not that simple, those steps would likely help a lot more than just eating more plants, although if you want to go whole plant based go for it, even if the effects are marginal at best, just do not sell it as the be all end all to every problem our society has, it is not and will cause more if the change is too abrupt.
(ps. you can't even have vegetable without insects so no the plan to kill all animals life on the planet will not work)
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Offline Auslander

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #107 on: Wed, 30 December 2020, 17:40:48 »
Mutation is the problem now.   If this goes around like the flu after a couple years.   Fury road here we come.

We have to go whole food plant based immediately. This is urgent.


No thanks, ill stick to eating grass fed and finished meats. Many people have problems with bloating, lower protein absorption rates, and decreased testosterone from non meat sources that are high in protein.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #108 on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 18:42:16 »
Hang on,  If they stop transporting stroke and heart attack victims to hospitals,   I don't understand, what do they do send out rescue / defib crew ?  what happens ?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #109 on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 22:27:59 »
Hang on,  If they stop transporting stroke and heart attack victims to hospitals,   I don't understand, what do they do send out rescue / defib crew ?  what happens ?
First responders can work on you but they can't take you to an emergency room, they will turn away ambulance.

If you get out and walk in they have to take you, however once inside you face combat triage. Yes, as in milltary style front line triage, ever watch MASH?
They decide who is most likely to recover and needs help while, ignoring those with little to no chance of surviving or minor uinjuries. Got a small cut, you will be waiting, possibly for days, broken bone, same, it may start to heal before you even get in to see a doc.

You no longer need to catch Covid for Covid to maim you for life or even kill you, you just need a bad injury.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #110 on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 23:33:31 »
Hang on,  If they stop transporting stroke and heart attack victims to hospitals,   I don't understand, what do they do send out rescue / defib crew ?  what happens ?
First responders can work on you but they can't take you to an emergency room, they will turn away ambulance.

If you get out and walk in they have to take you, however once inside you face combat triage. Yes, as in milltary style front line triage, ever watch MASH?
They decide who is most likely to recover and needs help while, ignoring those with little to no chance of surviving or minor uinjuries. Got a small cut, you will be waiting, possibly for days, broken bone, same, it may start to heal before you even get in to see a doc.

You no longer need to catch Covid for Covid to maim you for life or even kill you, you just need a bad injury.

That's a bone-chilling paragraph to read.

Online suicidal_orange

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #111 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 00:23:18 »
I don't understand that Leslieann - my thought would be "covid? survival chance ~50% (if you're bad enough to be at a hospital) long stay, broken arm 100% recovery minimum effort and gone within the hour - fix the arm"

In related news our prime minister has all but admitted not cancelling Christmas was dumb.  Who woulda thunk it.  Makes no difference, I'm off to work!
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Offline jamster

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #112 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 00:50:51 »
In related news our prime minister has all but admitted not cancelling Christmas was dumb.  Who woulda thunk it.  Makes no difference, I'm off to work!

Does anyone over there really think that Boris Johnson really cares about anything else besides securing a place in history? Even a decade ago, it seemed quite clear that he simply wanted to be Winston Churchill.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #113 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 01:11:52 »
Boris Johnson still sounds like a made up Russian sleeper agent name to me

Offline Leslieann

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #114 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 03:19:16 »
I don't understand that Leslieann - my thought would be "covid? survival chance ~50% (if you're bad enough to be at a hospital) long stay, broken arm 100% recovery minimum effort and gone within the hour - fix the arm"
The arm can wait, so you wait.
If you start with the easy stuff, by the time you get to the worse off patients there may not be any left. You start with the worst injured that are saveable, get them stable and work back from there. You can assign easier ones to other staff, a nurse may not be normally expected to do certain things but they've seen and done it enough to handle a lot when things get bad. Once the worst patients are stable they come back and deal with the minor stuff or hand that off to nurses where they do their best. Most covid cases, even hospitalized are survivable, it just takes a lot of manpower.

To be honest, hospitals do this to an extent at normal times too. Because our system is all profit driven hospitals use wait times to discourage you from going in with minor injuries in the first place, there's no money in it, especially in poorer areas. Whether you can pay or not our emergency room has to take you and stabilize you so if you are poor and have no insurance your only option is the emergency room rather than a normal doc. We have great hospitals, but only if you can afford it. This is why you have people using Ubers instead of ambulances. It's a screwed up system even in the best of times.
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Offline fanpeople

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #115 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 05:56:16 »
This is why you have people using Ubers instead of ambulances. It's a screwed up system even in the best of times.

And here we are with our free ambulances generally staffed by 2 x bachelor degree qualified paramedics.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #116 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 07:46:21 »
Well at least we have a huge boom to look forward to post Covid. I mean, that's the way it's supposed to go according to past pandemics.
So much damage is being done in as of yet unforeseen long term ways, and the death of the middle class and small business are two things I don't think the world can afford to lose in the future.
If only greed weren't synonymous with egotism perhaps we'd be on a better track for humanity.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #117 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 21:31:23 »
Well at least we have a huge boom to look forward to post Covid. I mean, that's the way it's supposed to go according to past pandemics.
So much damage is being done in as of yet unforeseen long term ways, and the death of the middle class and small business are two things I don't think the world can afford to lose in the future.
If only greed weren't synonymous with egotism perhaps we'd be on a better track for humanity.
What about the last 4 years has been normal?

Frankly, I think we will be lucky if it just smooths out the economy. There's lots of signs they've been tinkering with it to hide a coming recession just like they did in 2008. A boon now might reverse that. Or it could mask it further leading to another major stock market crash, so history totally repeats itself.
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Online yui

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #118 on: Wed, 06 January 2021, 02:18:10 »
What about the last 4 years has been normal?

Frankly, I think we will be lucky if it just smooths out the economy. There's lots of signs they've been tinkering with it to hide a coming recession just like they did in 2008. A boon now might reverse that. Or it could mask it further leading to another major stock market crash, so history totally repeats itself.
well the US has not managed to start a good war in a while, so their economy, built upon the war machine, is failing and everyone else is tied to the US economy... so we are ****ed either way
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #119 on: Wed, 06 January 2021, 03:38:08 »
well the US has not managed to start a good war in a while, so their economy, built upon the war machine, is failing and everyone else is tied to the US economy... so we are ****ed either way
Not for lack of trying.

Our economy is actually quite diverse, you wouldn't know it from how some senators speak but that's because in their districts it often does revolve around it. Some states here are pretty sparsely populated. Besides, it's not like we aren't in enough of them to keep the ball rolling.

Don't watch the stock market for the next (U.S. based) crash, it's not indicative of the actual U.S. economy (it's become a shell game), watch California housing foreclosures, if the houses start going into foreclosure at record rates and prices start to drop, even a little, get worried. Right now, there's trouble brewing but there's time to turn it around.
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Offline korrelate

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #120 on: Wed, 06 January 2021, 03:55:55 »
Ever notice how the people considered essential workers are also the lowest paid and at the highest risk? A pat on the back and a prayer is all you need to protect yourself apparently.

I really wish we treated essential workers now, with the same respect we did at the beginning of the pandemic. People were cheering, food was sent to them and it really seemed that people gave a ****. Now, I feel like no one gives a **** and just expects them to put themselves at risk. It's a shame..

Here here! Wouldn't it be fantastic if everybody had enough regard for everybody else to treat everybody like this, pandemic or not? I did a feasibility study on this the other day - started googling around, found a thesaurus website and it turns out the ancients had a word for a practice exactly like this: they called it "manners."

For all of the Asian readers, there are many in the US on whom it is not lost that many Asian countries are kicking a** on the Covid Response. I look to Taiwan in particular and I think "Damn," wouldn't it be nice if all of the countries who really struggle with the pandemic lived in societies that had the same social skills as Asian countries? I'll answer that question: yes, yes it would.


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Offline korrelate

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #121 on: Wed, 06 January 2021, 04:00:58 »
Boris Johnson still sounds like a made up Russian sleeper agent name to me

Damn, that's spot on NT. What a mouthful! Like, if you were wondering how deeply Russia's attempts to divide and conquer the west have succeeded, and you came across this guy you'd have to wonder to yourself, "Is Russia just bragging about it now?"

I swear, if he died his hair black he would look just like Boris Badinuv from Dudley Dooright. Seriously, we are reaching "cartoonish levels of supervillany" here.
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Offline korrelate

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #122 on: Wed, 06 January 2021, 04:13:09 »
I'm astonished when I talk to friends and family lately.  They're talking about how it's "bad" again and they're worried about having to stay home again.  AGAIN?  ****, my whole goddamn family has been at home since late January.  The **** y'all been doing?  I seriously haven't been inside a store since... actually I don't know.  Probably not since late February.  It's not hard at all.  In fact, it's extremely easy to pick up groceries and essentials curb side or have them delievered. 

It is exponentially more difficult for people in lower economic situations. Not having a vehicle forces you to use public transportation and forces you to physically enter a store to shop usually. Not being able to work remote, many times pushed into retail situations dealing with countless numbers of strangers. Living in more densely populated places and buildings with neighbors who may not be as vigilant as you are.
It's almost as if this virus were designed to kill off a large swath of poor people.


I agree that covid disproportionately impacts poor people, but the idea of 'design' may be a bit too far: EVERY virus (indeed, every hardship of just about every kind) disproportionately impacts the poorest in the community) so using the idea of impact on the poor to support the claim of deliberate design may be specious reasoning.
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Offline Sintpinty

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #123 on: Wed, 06 January 2021, 06:16:48 »
Still in lockdown

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #124 on: Wed, 06 January 2021, 09:30:36 »
Man,, when you read some armchair guy on reddit explain the difference betweeen Triage and Combat Triage like Lesliann.. in a covid thread

This is a whole'nother level of disaster..  like that's a main thread. ?  not just obscurity, that's now the thread.  I think we gon' die. 

Should sign up for r/ collapse.

I'd buy a cabin the mountains some where, buhh the housing bubble ..

Offline jamster

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #125 on: Wed, 06 January 2021, 09:53:49 »
For all of the Asian readers, there are many in the US on whom it is not lost that many Asian countries are kicking a** on the Covid Response. I look to Taiwan in particular and I think "Damn," wouldn't it be nice if all of the countries who really struggle with the pandemic lived in societies that had the same social skills as Asian countries? I'll answer that question: yes, yes it would.

It's not all unicorns and roses out in Asia. There are dark sides to the story- Singapore is one of the covid darlings in the media, but their 4000 'local' infections are eclipsed by the 150,000 infections in their hitherto hidden migrant workforce, many of whom have been locked into cramped dormitories with 20 people a room for months on end. Others have been using it as an excuse for political repression of their own citizens.

Some countries have handled covid very well, but saying that it's down to some kind of superior set of Asian social skills is massively simplistic and also does a disservice to societies like Australia and New Zealand.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #126 on: Wed, 06 January 2021, 10:16:38 »
Or from another viewpoint:
" When a man unprincipled in private life, desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper, despotic in his ordinary demeanour known to have scoffed in private at the principles of liberty when such a man is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity to join in the cry of danger to liberty to take every opportunity of embarrassing the General Government & bringing it under suspicion to flatter and fall in with all the non sense of the zealots of the day It may justly be suspected that his object is to throw things into confusion that he may 'ride the storm and direct the whirlwind'. "
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Offline jamster

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #127 on: Wed, 06 January 2021, 19:30:05 »
Or from another viewpoint:

That's too obviously cherry-picked for gender. Leaves out Australia, South Korea, Switzerland, Japan, Singapore (discounting their hidden Bangladeshi labourers, which everyone seems to be happy to ignore). Some of these had higher challenges, e.g. being in the middle of Europe, being the main travel hub for Asia, or having massive and dense populations centres.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #128 on: Wed, 06 January 2021, 19:31:10 »
Or from another viewpoint:

That's too obviously cherry-picked for gender. Leaves out Australia, South Korea, Switzerland, Japan, Singapore (discounting their hidden Bangladeshi labourers). Some of these had higher challenges, e.g. being in the middle of Europe, being the main travel hub for Asia, or having massive and dense populations centres.

And let's not forget, China's XiJingp00h did better than several of those countries put together.


Also, the hidden labor force in Japan imported from the Philippines.

Offline korrelate

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #129 on: Fri, 08 January 2021, 06:47:11 »
For all of the Asian readers, there are many in the US on whom it is not lost that many Asian countries are kicking a** on the Covid Response. I look to Taiwan in particular and I think "Damn," wouldn't it be nice if all of the countries who really struggle with the pandemic lived in societies that had the same social skills as Asian countries? I'll answer that question: yes, yes it would.

It's not all unicorns and roses out in Asia. There are dark sides to the story- Singapore is one of the covid darlings in the media, but their 4000 'local' infections are eclipsed by the 150,000 infections in their hitherto hidden migrant workforce, many of whom have been locked into cramped dormitories with 20 people a room for months on end. Others have been using it as an excuse for political repression of their own citizens.

Some countries have handled covid very well, but saying that it's down to some kind of superior set of Asian social skills is massively simplistic and also does a disservice to societies like Australia and New Zealand.

I didn't say it's all unicorns and roses out in Asia. You do me a disservice for implying that. From my perspective, it seems that simply by implying that Asian cultures could be doing a better job at something is touching a nerve ( a racist nerve, perhaps - I don't know for certain, but you're kind of sounding a bit racist buddy). Yes, NZ is totally kicking butt here, but consider the big picture: I'm not studying this data for a living, but MANY of the countries that are predominantly populated by whites are doing worse with COVID than MOST of the countries that are populated by Asians.
I haven't reviewed any of the data regarding Australia's response, but I'll take your word for it. Great! And Singapore's doing some shady stuff with migrants? OK! Overall, though, I'm still pretty certain that as far as COVID goes, they're doing better than white countries. Certainly better than the US is (where I'm from). And in anticipation of any pedantic thoughts you might want to wrap your reply in: YES! there may be exceptions to that rule. One or two white counties (NZ) may be doing a great job! Hurray!
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #130 on: Fri, 08 January 2021, 11:58:39 »
I jus think we gon' die.  it's not going to stop at 500k, we're prolly gonna hit 750k-1mil

Offline korrelate

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #131 on: Fri, 08 January 2021, 13:14:31 »
I didn't have time to do every single country but this is a pretty good representation of the comparative performance of Asian countries vs Western Countries:


https://imgur.com/0Z5UDbg


There are two main sources of data: one for population numbers and another for infection (and mortality) data. These citations are listed in the image and I have included them again at the bottom of this post. Please feel free to check the numbers yourself. In any event, I suspected that the list of "best performers" posted by fohat.digs was over sampling good performers from western cultures (i.e. biased toward whitey) so I took the liberty of listing many more countries.

disclaimer: I am white 100%, born and raised in the US. If "whitey" is considered a derogatory term by any of the readers of this post, I apologize in advance. I just don't like seeing facts get skewed or cherry picked, and I suspect (without accusing) that the chart posted by fohat was skewed towards white countries and the research I have just conducted certainly seems to support my suspicions.

Basically: when I say that "with respect to their handling of Covid" Asian Countries are beating us I think I was wrong. I should rather have said, "Asian Countries are Kicking Our A**es."
Seriously, any time you're being beaten by an Order Of Magnitude ( a power of 10) you ARE GETTING YOUR A** KICKED. There's no other way to put it and if you aren't aware of the fact that you are losing by an order of magnitude, welll.... that's probably one of the reasons you're losing so badly.

The Asian countries that I have listed here total up to about a billion people in population. Ditto for the western countries. I've excluded China and Russia because I find their numbers difficult to believe but feel free to plug them in if you like and have a go at it: that's the brilliant thing about research - if you do some yourself you don't have to take anyone's word for it.

So, we're comparing roughly equivalent populations and here's the results:

Total Infections:
Asian      =  2,357,916
Western = 41,755,587
Let that sink in: the West has well over 10 times (one order of magnitude) more infections than Asian countries. Yes, there are outliers, but w.r.t. covid, Asian countries are kicking Western countries a**es.

Note: even if you remove the worst performing western country (the USA, no doubt), team W is still getting its ass kicked:
Asian      =  2,357,916
Western = 20,110,630
The West still has an order of magnitude more cases than Asian countries.


Now for Mortality:
Asian      =            46,353
Western =         852,065 (incl the USA)
                          485,796 (not incl the USA)
Same thing: if you include the USA, the West still has well over an order of magnitude more deaths than Asian countries have. If you exclude the USA (the worst performing country), the West still has an order of magnitude more deaths than Asian countries have.


Population                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population
Infections and Mortalities      https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
(Johns Hopkins)





« Last Edit: Tue, 19 January 2021, 14:22:35 by korrelate »
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Offline pixelpusher

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #132 on: Fri, 08 January 2021, 17:06:19 »
I jus think we gon' die.  it's not going to stop at 500k, we're prolly gonna hit 750k-1mil

TP not believe in vaccine?  Surely some people who are vaccinated will live. right?  :p

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #133 on: Fri, 08 January 2021, 17:47:41 »
I jus think we gon' die.  it's not going to stop at 500k, we're prolly gonna hit 750k-1mil

TP not believe in vaccine?  Surely some people who are vaccinated will live. right?  :p

Oh Tp4 believes in vaccine,  it's ery1 else who dun' believe it..   If there's a high virus load out there, even a vaccinated person could be overwhelmed.

Flu vaccines are not 100% , many times they're not even 10%,  they just slow down the transmission therefore the killing.

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #134 on: Fri, 08 January 2021, 17:53:10 »
I haven't given up hope yet.  We have a new administration with the power to move things along.  We have better theraputics every day.  We have a vaccine.  Don't give up hope.  Double down on the hunker down.  We can do it.

Offline NoteMakoti

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #135 on: Fri, 08 January 2021, 22:58:16 »
I just got my first vaccine shot today. 😌

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #136 on: Fri, 08 January 2021, 23:21:03 »
I just got my first vaccine shot today. 😌

how did you qualify, if ya don't mind me asking?

Offline jacobolus

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #137 on: Fri, 08 January 2021, 23:22:38 »
If there's a high virus load out there, even a vaccinated person could be overwhelmed.

That isn't how this works.

Once your body has an effective adaptive immune response to a pathogen, you'll probably be able to deal with it just fine, even if you get 10000 times as much initial dose (or whatever).

A high dose is really bad if your body does not yet know what the pathogen looks like, because exponential growth starting from a high baseline quickly overwhelms your innate immune response. You can't keep the pathogen at bay long enough for your adaptive immune response to figure it out and kick the pathogen's ass. But the adaptive immune system is ****ing amazing once it gets going.

There are some really interesting animal models with MERS and SARS (and presumably Covid too, by now, but I haven't looked again) where animals (mice or whatever) given a tiny dose of the virus basically all survive just fine most with no symptoms, animals given a dose 100x or 1000x higher than the tiny dose have a long struggle but some pull through, animals given a 10,000x higher initial dose have a long struggle but all die, and animals given 1,000,000x higher dose rapidly deteriorate losing all their body weight and having multiple organs fail within a few days.

Later re-testing the surviving animals, they all easily survive the highest doses without experiencing any symptoms.

This is why you want to wear a ****ing mask when you spend time indoors with potentially infected people, or when you are potentially infected and spend time indoors with other people. If you can cut the initial dose by 100x you give your immune system a fighting chance and dramatically reduce the chances of a bad outcome, even if you end up infected.

Disclaimer: I am not a doctor or virologist.

Quote
Flu vaccines are not 100% , many times they're not even 10%,  they just slow down the transmission therefore the killing.
The problem with flu vaccines is that the flu mutates super fast compared to most viruses, and there are multiple strains out there. People try to predict what the dominant strain will be and prepare the appropriate vaccine every year, but the whole process takes a lot of time and can't be fixed partway through the flu season, so they often don't get it quite right. The other problem is that many people never get the seasonal flu vaccine. Even if the vaccine perfectly stopped a given year's flu, there would still be a large unvaccinated population every year.

All available evidence suggests that the Covid vaccines being deployed now will effectively counter all of the various variants of Covid currently seen in the wild. It is possible that the virus could mutate in such a way that it evades vaccines, but that hasn't been found to have happened yet, and this virus mutates significantly slower than the flu.

It is entirely possible people will need to get re-vaccinated for a new Covid strain within the next few years. But full roll-out of the current vaccines should be pretty effective at bringing the pandemic sharply under control in the short term. (Of course, getting vaccines to everyone in the world is a monumental logistics and public outreach challenge.)
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 January 2021, 23:49:02 by jacobolus »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #138 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 04:13:19 »

Viral load


These numbers are relative, and they exclude timing of events. There are other things that can dampen immunity in conjunction with the infection.

No denying vaccines work, but quite often they don't work nearly as well as they're supposed to.

Offline NoteMakoti

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #139 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 12:48:30 »
I just got my first vaccine shot today. 😌

how did you qualify, if ya don't mind me asking?
I signed up for a reminder email, the system glitched and let me make an appointment, and they ended up giving me a shot in order to not waste it. I was very lucky.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #140 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 12:56:30 »
I just got my first vaccine shot today. 😌

how did you qualify, if ya don't mind me asking?
I signed up for a reminder email, the system glitched and let me make an appointment, and they ended up giving me a shot in order to not waste it. I was very lucky.

Tp4 is going 2 die..



Online suicidal_orange

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #141 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 13:01:27 »
I signed up for a reminder email, the system glitched and let me make an appointment, and they ended up giving me a shot in order to not waste it. I was very lucky.
Nice to know they're taking it seriously and hiring good developers.

If the system can't even sign you up to an e-mail list should it be trusted to book appointments for those who should need them? :-\
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Offline pixelpusher

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #142 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 18:17:54 »
The county I live in just recently made the distinction of #1 for Covid-19 cases per capita in the entire world. Not sure about your system that glitched, but here they are using signupgenius.com for shots. That's the same website I used to sign up to bring posicles to my son's summer school event.  Let's hope that the developers at signupgenius.com are good :)

The good news is that people here are more than willing to get vaccinated.  In fact, they've run out of shots on more than one occasion now.  Currenly #3 in the country for percentage of individuals getting vaccinated.  Woohoo.  I may live  (/crossesfingers)
« Last Edit: Sat, 09 January 2021, 18:28:44 by pixelpusher »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #143 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 19:45:05 »
I saw some news story about someplace in Florida doing open vaccine signups on Eventbrite, and another one that just had a first-come first-served line in a parking lot or something.

US vaccine planning has gone just about as smoothly as everything else the Trump administration was in charge of.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #144 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 21:25:14 »
I'd be totally down for door-to-door vaccinations. It would be the fastest and easiest way to ensure everyone get it, like taking the census.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #145 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 21:28:31 »
I'd be totally down for door-to-door vaccinations. It would be the fastest and easiest way to ensure everyone get it, like taking the census.
It's hard enough getting people to fill out the census, there isn't a chance in hell of this working with the current distrust of Covid and vaccines.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #146 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 21:44:34 »
I always prefer empirical evidence and by the time I get to the front of the line I figure that the bugs may be mostly ferretted out.

Clinical trials can only go so far, but installing vaccinations in millions of subjects all over the world seems like a certain, if inefficient, way to flush out problems.
 
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Alexander Hamilton 1792

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #147 on: Sun, 10 January 2021, 13:08:34 »
The did the numbers    Deaths for   Year 2020 = Year 2019 + 400,000

Offline jamster

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #148 on: Sun, 10 January 2021, 20:53:46 »
Yet almost fifty percent of the nation still voted for this murderous clown.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: So, Covid
« Reply #149 on: Mon, 11 January 2021, 16:46:54 »
I took a survey then received an email that I qualify for a vax. After spending 32 mins on hold trying to make an appointment the person on the phone said I could not make an appointment or come in and that I don't qualify. No wonder people are dropping like flies wtf How does one actually get the vax?

'doing everything they can' my butt  >:D