Author Topic: Foundation  (Read 9632 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Foundation
« on: Sat, 25 September 2021, 16:51:01 »
Ya'll watchn'dis ?   Pretty kewl stuffs.

Strong starting episodes. Very grand scope.

Thoughts?

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Offline _rubik

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 25 September 2021, 21:23:13 »
I was just going to start a thread about this! I started watching last night and am very excited for Friday (already).

It's been a while since I've read the books. For the folks who are better versed in the foundation series, how accurate is the show (so far)? I feel like they're really playing up certain love interests, but I guess you gotta make things spicy for the average fan.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 26 September 2021, 09:14:18 »
The CGI is truly excellent.

This was MADE for HDR,  they use a floated grey black, but because now HDR highlights exists, it's still extremely contrast punchy.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 01 October 2021, 09:41:40 »
Hrrrrm.... plot was slower this episode..

Compelling, although I hope the story doesn't get tooooo hughmahn...

Offline _rubik

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 01 October 2021, 12:26:46 »
Hrrrrm.... plot was slower this episode..

Compelling, although I hope the story doesn't get tooooo hughmahn...


No spoilers! I've yet to watch ep 3.

I'll probably watch the first two again just to make sure I have everything in memory before proceeding
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Re: Foundation
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 06 October 2021, 21:22:18 »
Damn it,   want it NOWww.w..w.w..



Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 08 October 2021, 01:05:31 »
Gotta love the show's intro. so CGI, much Glitter

Excellent Episode 4, the pace is good, has yet to stall.


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Offline _rubik

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 08 October 2021, 15:49:42 »
What do you think about the show's pacing. I watched the episode last night, and they are really taking their time setting up the environment.

I hope it's building to something substantial
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 08 October 2021, 15:55:23 »
What do you think about the show's pacing. I watched the episode last night, and they are really taking their time setting up the environment.

I hope it's building to something substantial

We're getting jumps of 10-20 years every which way. I think it's moving fast.

It's much better than the recent trek picard/ trek discovery.

Offline _rubik

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 09 October 2021, 14:38:10 »
What do you think about the show's pacing. I watched the episode last night, and they are really taking their time setting up the environment.

I hope it's building to something substantial

We're getting jumps of 10-20 years every which way. I think it's moving fast.

It's much better than the recent trek picard/ trek discovery.


Sure we're moving through time quickly, but it feels like there's an abundance of detail in every episode that, if removed, would help the show flow. Or at least get to the point

Granted, exposition has its time and place, but when _everything_ is backstory it loses its potency. It feels like 4 episodes of setup, and we still haven't stabilized.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 09 October 2021, 15:42:06 »

Sure we're moving through time quickly, but it feels like there's an abundance of detail in every episode that, if removed, would help the show flow. Or at least get to the point

Granted, exposition has its time and place, but when _everything_ is backstory it loses its potency. It feels like 4 episodes of setup, and we still haven't stabilized.


I don't think it's setup, I think this is how it's gon' be,   They assume you're an advanced sci-fi enthusiast, and leave it to you to fill in gaps.

I enjoy it like this,  because it leaps over most of the dumb hughmahn stuff.   But who knows, it could turn into GOT season 8 at any time.

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 09 October 2021, 21:10:49 »
I'm watching, as well.

Haven't looked at your posts, because I don't want to bias myself too much.

I have a number of thoughts about the program. You can see how it's going to be divisive. I'm reserving judgement until the end of season 1.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 15 October 2021, 16:14:52 »
Zomggg,,  Whoever wrote these god damn ending cliff sequences is the Devil..   

I can't wait a weeek on that .... PURE TORTURE...



Offline Findecanor

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 15 October 2021, 17:20:30 »
The show didn't meet my memories from having read the book (10+ years ago) so I started re-reading it.
The book's chapters are very short. At ~100 pages in it is already past the timeline of the first five episodes of the TV show but there are still a lot of differences in the show from the book, not just extrapolations.
I'm a bit sad, personally, that a few details unimportant to the plot from the book (things I had remembered) weren't in the TV series though, but I suppose those could be different for everybody.

Overall I really like the show so far, but it is more drama and less philosophy. I think Asimov's style might appear a bit dated today so I don't mind some modernisation: What's important is that the major themes will have come across at the end. So, I'll also reserve final judgement until the first season has concluded.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 19 October 2021, 17:11:53 »
It's only Tuesday..

Offline Shapey Fiend

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 19 October 2021, 18:05:15 »
I'll have to give this a look. I recognised the Long Room library in the trailer right away it's actually filmed near where I live.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 23 October 2021, 10:33:23 »
lee pace, this guy is extremely swole for his age.

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 23 October 2021, 23:53:32 »

I think I'm going to have to stop watching the series, so I'll have to evaluate it now.

The changes and 'improvements' the showrunners have been making to the series take it further and further away from psychohistory.

Psychohistory was supposed to be this sociological concept that models and predicts society in a similar way perhaps to gas dynamics. You don't know where an individual particle is going to end up or what it will do, but you can sort of predict the particles as a whole.

But so much hinges on individuals this season, from whether Seldon should be on the ship or not, to Dornick, should so-and-so have a kid, the decisions of the individual emperors, etc... But in the books, it takes a really exotic and unpredictable individual to endanger the plan.

Then there's all the added drama with the Anachreons and now they're adding the imperial battleship! They're mushing it all together so they can keep the same characters, and it's clear that the first crises and their resolutions are going to be derailed from the book.

If this was a genuine adaptation of Foundation, then it would be following the unfolding of the plan over generations. This is a science-fictional concept that you'd expect an ambitious show to adopt. It's not so much about the individuals, they're just people who occupy a predictable and needed role at the time. The story is the unfolding of the plan, and the challenges to it. It's the unfolding of history, and the attempt to conform it to a plan by scientists.

That's what an ambitious production would have attempted. But the showrunners seem to want to do a cut-rate Game of Thrones + stereotypical dry frontier planet, and here's a bunch of characters we threw into a blender. They aimed for mediocrity.

I'm probably going to stop watching the show, because I want to preserve my memories of the book. I skipped recent Alien sequels for precisely this reason: say to no poor adaptations. Now, maybe I'm wrong and this will all make sense in the end. But I've long ago stopped giving showrunners the benefit of the doubt.

Here are some quotes from a discussion of Episode 6 that I found myself at least partially in agreement with [SPOILERS]:


Quote

Maz
11 hours ago
Every time the show transitions back to Terminus, I groan. "Foundation" is supposed to be grandiose. It deals with galaxy-faring civilizations set over thousands of years during their respective rises and falls. The aspect of the show that accomplishes this is everything to do with the Empire. The plotlines related to Trantor, the Cleons, and Illuminism/religiosity are riveting and I'm looking forward to the payoff, which is odd because it's for the most part original content and not inspired by anything from the books (which I love) . The other aspect of the show is Terminus and the Foundation. The writers have managed to make the most interesting part of the books into the most drab part of show. The character of Salvor Hardin has been butchered and the actress that portrays him does so in a stilted and unconvincing way.

The idea of psychohistory has seemingly been misinterpreted by the showrunners, or we the audience are currently waiting for the "told you so" moment towards the end of the season that reaffirms Asimov's version of it. If we continue down the path of singular individuals being able to alter the Plan this early, the entire idea of psychohistory will seem silly to non-readers.

PanamaLane
4 hours ago (edited)
Excellent points, was thinking much the same. The whole point of psychohistory is that an individual does not matter, but instead at times of crisis some individuals will inevitably serve pivotal roles that are predictable. It's kind of a massive problem when an individual can alter the plan i.e. the mule. The only real purpose of the second foundation is to ensure no individual can alter the plan. So, I'm really scratching my head over what the show runners were thinking, though I am holding onto some hope that maybe this will be revealed when the vault opens.

I'm mean the entire "religion" of Seldonism is based around the idea that no matter what you or anyone else in the galaxy does, the Foundation will inevitably prevail.




rockdale-gym
1 day ago (edited)
I'm not sure if this is just me. However, Empire continues to be the MOST interesting part of the show. I've read the books and it is so strange to me; that the most interesting part -- the clones, is something that doesn't exist in the books.
The most interesting part in the books, Terminus is the most boring in the show. It feels like it is written by another person and is literally a separate show sometimes.... like in Episode 3. The pacing is off, the tone is weird. I don't know and I can't the only one who feels this way. It's super strange ...


Yeah Terminus a planet of 1000 should NOT be vital yet, nothing should be vital yet, empire falls in 500+ years why should we care about the minor ups and downs pre500 years, , , but the writers wanted to be exciting,, , But at least it aint boring.  . . .




Terminus is BORING because in the books, at this point of time, the planet was the point of contention between three provinces which had become independent kingdoms. Salvor Hardin guaranteed all three kingdoms access to technology to avoid a very costly war among them.

However, in the show, Terminus is a boring dusty town instead of the most advanced city in the edge of the galaxy. Salvor is boring. And the entire plot has been dragging a lot.



 @elgranqenk  Terminus goes from being the most advanced high tech city/world outside of Trantor  to a candidate for something from Mad Max...it staggers me how badly the makers of the show have got this wrong but its only one of a long list of changes that frankly suck..
On its own the show is OK and entertaining but it really its Foundation in name only...


« Last Edit: Sun, 24 October 2021, 00:13:08 by HungerMechanic »

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 24 October 2021, 00:03:20 »
Ultimately, both Foundation and the Empire are supposed to be grandiose.

The scenes with the 3 emperors confirm this: for many viewers, they are more interesting than the scenes that occur on Terminus. This shouldn't be.

Terminus itself is supposed to be more advanced by the time we see it. Isn't there supposed to be 100,000 people doing the work of scientists? Instead we get some [generic dirt planet]. Taking the show into a rustic direction that makes Borderlands look advanced isn't in the spirit of the books.

Trantor is supposed to be this magnificent world than needs many, many planets to sustain it. This is mentioned in dialog, but we don't really get to see it. This is the grandaddy of all the galactic empires we see today (Dune, Star Wars, Hyperion). So the scenes on Trantor should show many, many spaceships delivering their cargo, as well as references to the agricultural worlds near the core that are dedicated solely to service Trantor (as it would be good foreshadowing). All the technology should be "big iron," at least at the design level, as the Empire isn't supposed to do things like personal shields, personal cloaking devices, etc... It's very big and fairly cumbersome.

So...yeah. Instead of big majestic spaceships that inspired Star Wars and so on, we get family drama, we get important individuals who are super-special and the "key to everything," we get many episodes of a stretched-out barbarian subplot that wasn't supposed to happen yet, Salvor Hardin doesn't even warn the imperial ship over the radio about the hidden AA cannon! I don't know. It feels like how Westworld unraveled in Season 2, except it's already happening in Season 1.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 24 October 2021, 10:25:10 »
Yeah, the book's first two crises had been compressed into one, for some reason, as if the book wasn't short enough. Hari Sheldon did not influence the events or put any special powers or visions into someone: he only predicted the larger things.

Both times in the book, the crises were solved without any violence, because "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent". That phrase is repeated a few times.
The scriptwriters put a lot of violence into the series because ? ...  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: Sun, 24 October 2021, 10:27:01 by Findecanor »

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 24 October 2021, 11:13:05 »
Yes. I'm not going to go into a big hate rant against the show, because you can get that elsewhere. Plus, there are plenty of people enjoying the Foundation TV series, although they tend to be people who did not yet read the books.

My issue is that the fundamental premise of the books is like you say, Hari Seldon developed a macro-social-science that could see, in broad brush strokes, what would happen. But in the show, individuals seem to be pivotal. It's like "don't be on this spaceship, you're not supposed to be here in the plan," and maybe "have a baby with this egg because it needs to come out this way," "you're the only one who can go into the vault - it's meant for you," and so on.

Then, there's the violence. I mean, one of the most memorable aspects of the first crisis or so was how it was resolved without violence. It was clever and somewhat daring writing in a big galactic space opera with 'barbarian kingdoms' to resolve a matter through cleverness and non-violence. So let's throw that out because it's boring for TV. (Maybe they'll still do it, but not as cleanly as in the books.)

I get the Asimov was a very dry writer, especially in his earlier works. So any filmed adaptation was likely to have updated dialog, etc... But it's one thing to 'modernize,' and a whole nother thing to undermine the fundamental conceit of the series, which is psychohistory. If the first book was seen to be dry, then it could have been rushed through in like 4 - 5 episodes, and then you are in new situations with new and diverse characters and more planets and stuff.

Foundation series is one of the most important sci-fi works of all time. It influenced many of today's largest sci-fi properties. It needed to be treated with respect and dare I say, reverence. A slavish 1-for-1 adaption is not needed, but a deep understanding of the core themes is.

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 24 October 2021, 11:28:28 »
EDIT:

I'd also ask: why adapt Foundation to TV? (We all know the reason - more subscribers for Apple TV).

From an artistic standpoint: why? We all know that the original novels had their ups and downs, their 'high points' that we all remember.

Series has already deviated from this.

I venture that it would have been worthwhile to create a modernized Foundation TV series that at least adhered structurally to the big 'revelations' and 'high points' as they proceeded in the book.

Then, new viewers could have at least seen why the books were popular and influential. The majesty of Trantor, the might of the old Galactic Empire, its subtle failings that were detected by some, Hari Seldon's interesting science, the creation of a repisitory of knowledge called the Foundation, the clever resolution to the first Seldon Crisis, the Time Vault, etc...

This could all proceed mostly as in the books. The characters and dialog could be way updated, and much of the pacing, but there are certain notes that must be played. The theme of psychohistory, a science of history, could also be played out at every level, from scenery to characters to plot structure. It's a great opportunity of a sci-fi concept to play with.

Today, if someone watched the series and then read the books, they might be very disappointed. Where are the Cleon clones? Where is all the religious stuff? It could turn new readers against the books, instead of creating a bridge from the present-day to the books.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 24 October 2021, 14:24:58 »
All adaptations need wrangling, there are limits to what can be kept coherent for the television format.

A reader has unlimited time, and presumed interest to do some leg work on the imagination side, Television viewers typically do not.

I think the changes they made are appropriate.

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 24 October 2021, 15:05:08 »
I know people who are watching it. With varying degrees of familiarity with the series. I would be interested to see what they think of the series by the end of the first season.

I don't want to trust my own opinion alone.

The show is introducing elements from other books in the series in order to flesh it out. It bothers me greatly that they are doing things out-of-sequence, outside of the story beats Asimov laid down. But maybe it is the best way to present the show to viewers who may be familiar / jaded with some or many of the series' basic conceits. We'll see how it wraps up at the end of the season, if all the changes were the best decision.

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 29 October 2021, 20:33:40 »
Hrrrrrrnnnnngngngngnghhhh...  WHYYYY   Why must they torture us like this..

This episode soooo gud''''   GDI..  damn cliffhangers..


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 29 October 2021, 20:37:59 »
The show is introducing elements from other books in the series in order to flesh it out. It bothers me greatly that they are doing things out-of-sequence, outside of the story beats Asimov laid down.

In asimov's time period, his stuff was fresh,  but modern audiences have seen alot of his stuff borrowed into other sci-fi, so it wouldn't make sense to _unravel_ plot elements in the same order.

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 29 October 2021, 23:00:28 »
Yes, I can see that they are trying to provide explanations for things that the viewers might already be familiar with, and doing so in an in-university context.

Although I still think that Asimov's generation-skipping psychohistory concept is "fresh" in the sense that nobody has adapted it in terms of story structure: skipping ahead with nearly a whole new cast each time. Anthology shows are popular right now, so there would be a justification for that approach.

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 05 November 2021, 09:22:39 »
Episode 8 So gud''   Thoroughly entralled...

Lots of questions, but perhaps answering them isn't the point, because logical conclusions would only makes it "less compelling"



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Re: Foundation
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 05 November 2021, 10:40:41 »
Also the sound track is prety kewl well worth listening through.

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 12 November 2021, 16:10:17 »
Hrrrrrrrrrrmmmmm.... Hrmrmrmrmrrmrmmrm.mmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

Ok...... but can they actually pull off an interesting civil war plot in space,  it's never been done well.

Offline Sniping

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 12 November 2021, 17:11:33 »
I've been keeping up with this show but definitely was not as impressed as I first was after I went to watch Dune in imax. Stories kinda moving slowly because of all the separate lines so I hope it gets good before the season comes to a close

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 12 November 2021, 17:42:54 »
Pretty sure there's only 1 more episode. So... it's gonna cliff HARD.

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 22:29:49 »
The highlight here is that they've created the space for ENDLESS creative possibilities.

Top notch completion to the 1st season.

Max Xcite for S2



Offline _rubik

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 19 September 2023, 12:39:04 »
Anyone watching season 2?
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 19 September 2023, 14:18:30 »
I'm sorry, We've been discussing season 2 in a new thread.
« Last Edit: Tue, 19 September 2023, 14:24:27 by Findecanor »