Phantom Custom Keyboard Group Buy (CLOSED)

[BiNiaRiS]

in case anyone is really pissed that we are switching to cherry stabilizers, you can always spend a little more time and file/grind out enough room to fit costars. the cherry stabilizers aren't as tall so you can make that choice yourselves.

[RiGS]

The Wyse keyboards I have use PCB-mount Cherry stabilizers, even though the switches are plate-mount.

Edit: Oh, and the Goldtouch Cherry stabilizers look exactly the same as the currently Cherry stabilizers (from pictures I found on the internet).

These WYSE stabilizers look plate-mounted to me.
Do you feel any difference between your PCB mounted WYSE and the Goldtouch?

[litster]

I will have to look at my Wyse keyboards again.  Maybe I am confused and the one keyboard that I took apart didn't have any stabilizer at all, like this one:



I took it apart many months ago and don't remember what was under the spacebar.  Anyway, if there were any stabilizers I would saved them when I ripped it apart for parts.  all I have in my pile of parts were PCB-mounted stabilizers, until I got the ones off the Goldtouch numpads.  The Goldtouch wide keys feel OK, no difference than the wide keys on my Filcos.

I never typed on the Wyse, not for real anyway.  your picture's stabilizers look the same as the ones I pulled from my Goldtouch numpads.

[RiGS]

Thanks for confirming. Yeah the stabilizers in the Steelseries look the same as well, though they feel different than costar stabilizers in my Filco.

[kaiserreich]

Cherry Stabilizers on the WYSE feels really different from the ones for Ducky or Leopold

[RiGS]

How so? They look identical. Have you ever tried a Ducky or Leopold with Cherry blacks?

[kaiserreich]

Unfortunately, the only black I have is the WYSE.

With the Leopold and Poker, I've tried Clear switches
With the DUCKY, Brown switches.

It might be due to the switch itself, but they do feel mushy compared to the one on the WYSE.

[RiGS]

If you have time to experiment just resolder a switch.

I like the plate mounted cherry stabilizers in my Steelseries with blacks, they don't feel mushy at all, but they don't feel like costar stabilizers either, as those are louder and don't have that dampened bottom out feel.

[kaiserreich]

Great idea.

I'll do that on the Poker. Don't own the Leopold and Ducky. Don't want to void the warranty on those either.

[RiGS]

Just make sure to test a few switches with the WYSE as well. As the mounting plate doesn't allow any flex, and as a result of it the WYSE stabilizers could feel a bit different than the PCB mounted ones.

[litster]

I am almost half way done... with the diodes only!  I have to say, soldering service is going to definitely worth it.  for each diode, you pick it up, bend the legs, insert each leg to a hole, in the correct orientation, do that for 86 or 87 times (or 100+ for 7bit layout), then flip it over, and solder both legs for each diode.  Oh, and you are supposed to cut the legs before your solder.  Do that 86, 87 times.  Then you can solder the Teensy, then 86, 87 switches, each have 2 solder points...

I now appreciate 6KRO over USB/NKRO over PS/2 much, much more.

[slueth]

@litster can't wait to see the results

[litster]

Believe me, I am batching the bending, the inserting, the soldering, and the cutting.  Still a very long process that require steady hands, good eye sight, and good tools.

Cutting the legs after soldering has the "potential" of cracking the solder or even the printed circuit.  I did the cutting after soldering anyway :-)

[litster]

@litster can't wait to see the results

I just finished all the diodes.  Because there are so many layout options for the Fn row, the front row, and shifts, etc, for some locations you need to know where you need your diodes be for the specific switch location .  I don't think it would be a problem if you solder diodes to switch locations you don't need.  But I double checked (still checking) to make should I don't.  It would be painful to fix a diode after the switches are soldered.  I think you would need de-solder all switches to remove the mounting plate to get to the diodes.

[slueth]

Try to document this stuff for us newbies later as you go along constructing it.  I know i am going to foobar something.

[hashbaz]

I know i am going to foobar something.

You mean like you fubar'd your fubar?

[TheProfosist]

I might be up for building these and DOXs for people. I know it time consuming but im pretty confident after putting ergos in my 7G in about 4 hours including taking apart and assembling the switches.

[litster]

we got signal...

[litster]

Except for the mouse click to post, that last post was typed on the Phantom prototype, after I loaded the firmware onto the Teensy and soldered it onto the Phantom PCB!  No switch was soldered yet, so I had to type the letter by touching a loose switch to the right switch locations :-)

Spacers slowly removed from pins, need to take up less room so it could fit for the acrylic case, but it is going to be tight:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36637[/ATTACH]

Teensy soldered on to PCB:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36635[/ATTACH]

There were 3 contact points without legs, so I had to solder on 3 new ones.  Just reused the cut wire from the diodes.  Had to dig them back out from garbage can!
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36636[/ATTACH]

[TheProfosist]

Nice so you did manage to get it soldered onto thbe pcb i was hopeing that that would be the cause what the original dox did was horrifying.

[litster]

The soldering points are very close and very small, I really need a thinner, pointier tip, but I managed to solder it onto the PCB.  I tested the Teensy is operational with test firmware before I solder it onto the PCB.  It would be huge paint to de-solder it.  I still need to cut it legs or the mounting plate won't fit.

[slueth]

Excellent news litster!

[Parak]

I am almost half way done... with the diodes only!  I have to say, soldering service is going to definitely worth it.  for each diode, you pick it up, bend the legs, insert each leg to a hole, in the correct orientation, do that for 86 or 87 times (or 100+ for 7bit layout), then flip it over, and solder both legs for each diode.  Oh, and you are supposed to cut the legs before your solder.  Do that 86, 87 times.  Then you can solder the Teensy, then 86, 87 switches, each have 2 solder points...

I now appreciate 6KRO over USB/NKRO over PS/2 much, much more.

Depending on the amount of boards, having the pcb fab do the diode assembly (especially since they are separate from the switches) could be a very cost effective option. I did this for my prototype boards, and the cost was insignificant compared to the time savings. The downside is that depending on the fab, it would be much cheaper to do SMD diodes, since it's often cheaper for them to do a single stencil with paste, than using solder waterfall for TH diodes. This would obviously need a change to the PCB to accommodate them - I personally used 1N4148 in SOD-123 package.

[RiGS]

Yeah, I think for future builds it would be wiser to do SMD diodes and integrate the teensy, or AIKON components to the PCB by the factory.

[litster]

Parak, which fab do you use?

[Parak]

I used sitopway - they can be contacted for a quote either via their website or the ebay account. Stencil was a one time cost of ~$40, and I had 131 smd components per board. Assembly cost, not including base pcb and component cost (which they sourced) was also ~$40 for all 6 boards. There are a few others that do full service pcb fab+assembly, but these guys were cheapest at the time (about 6 months ago).

Manufacture of pcbs, component sourcing, and assembly took exactly one week from me sending payment to them being shipped via DHL 3 day, which was fairly impressive. Quality was pretty good, some mask smudges here and there but nothing major.

Here's how the pcbs turned out, as an unrelated sneak peek as well

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36670[/ATTACH]

[TheProfosist]

I used sitopway - they can be contacted for a quote either via their website or the ebay account. Stencil was a one time cost of ~$40, and I had 131 smd components per board. Assembly cost, not including base pcb and component cost (which they sourced) was also ~$40 for all 6 boards. There are a few others that do full service pcb fab+assembly, but these guys were cheapest at the time (about 6 months ago).

Manufacture of pcbs, component sourcing, and assembly took exactly one week from me sending payment to them being shipped via DHL 3 day, which was fairly impressive. Quality was pretty good, some mask smudges here and there but nothing major.

Here's how the pcbs turned out, as an unrelated sneak peek as well

(Attachment Link) 36670[/ATTACH]

nice prices (i think) and nice PCB I assume you designed it?

[litster]

99% done. Picture below is the first Phantom prototype sitting in a Filco bottom case. White plate and no top case still looks pretty good, doesn't it? Due to the USB cable I have connect, I need to to cut out a piece of a vertical support bar to make it fit. Not a big deal.




LEDs are not working, probably the firmware isn't done yet. They are white LEDs and I want to see them light up. Also ? is backspace now, and the right Alt is Win key. I had to bend my own wire for the spacebar stabilizer metal bar. Took me a few tries. And the wires are cheap. $5 for 6 feet.

There is a problem with the Teensy legs interfering with switches at F3, F4, 4, and 5. There is a brute force work around (shaving one edge off of the switch bottom casing). Looking into a solution with the Phantom team offline.

Anyone has any good suggestion on the best way to bend metal bars accurately? I can't do it well. And we can't find 7x and 6.25x stabilizers. We need to be able to source these stabilizer bars ourselves.

Oh, BTW, I am typing all this on the Phantom prototype! It is good to see the 1.5x Control and Alt keycaps are being used!

[slueth]

again awesome news! can't wait to start soldering switches.. Wonder when the group buy 4 will ship :X, really want these two projects to finish in parallel so I can be a happy camper.

[TheProfosist]

I signed up for the switch groupbuy on DT for clear switches. Is that a separate buy?

[slueth]

i think it uses the phantom bot too so should be the same?

[Parak]

nice prices (i think) and nice PCB I assume you designed it?

Yeah, with major kudos to PrinsValium for some kicad specifics, in particular the holes script.

Anyone has any good suggestion on the best way to bend metal bars accurately? I can't do it well. And we can't find 7x and 6.25x stabilizers. We need to be able to source these stabilizer bars ourselves.

A wire bending jig, mayhaps?

[Tarkoon]

Is it really so hard with round nose pliers?

[alaricljs]

Is it really so hard with round nose pliers?

Yes it is.  I use the Dubro #481 wire bender... and I'd link to it but apparently google has changed things enough that I can't figure out how to direct link to a specific shopping result.

[bpiphany]

99% done. Picture below is the first Phantom prototype sitting in a Filco bottom case.
...
Oh, BTW, I am typing all this on the Phantom prototype! It is good to see the 1.5x Control and Alt keycaps are being used!

I probably programmed the controller according to the regular Filco layout, that is why some of the keys have the wrong bindings. Are you sure you soldered the LEDs in in the right direction? Can you test with a volt meter if the voltage across the LED pins and ground changes when pressing "lock" keys. The pins on the Teensy should probably be trimmed flush with the top of the PCB before soldering them. I think that was part of my preliminary assembly instructions.. =)

[litster]

Yes it is.  I use the Dubro #481 wire bender... and I'd link to it but apparently google has changed things enough that I can't figure out how to direct link to a specific shopping result.

Sweet!!!  That is a cool tool.  Saw a video on youtube that explains how it works.  I found some locally called steel drill rods at 1/16".  I also found more on mcmaster.com for a lot cheaper.  Alaricljs, what wires do you use for the stabilizers?

I signed up for the switch groupbuy on DT for clear switches. Is that a separate buy?

Yes, same GB.  7bit started a separate thread for switch buys to get more orders in.  But looks like only reds and clears can make the Cherry 1K MOQ.  Switches that don't make that number will have to be purchased from Mouser and be more expensive.

I probably programmed the controller according to the regular Filco layout, that is why some of the keys have the wrong bindings. Are you sure you soldered the LEDs in in the right direction? Can you test with a volt meter if the voltage across the LED pins and ground changes when pressing "lock" keys. The pins on the Teensy should probably be trimmed flush with the top of the PCB before soldering them. I think that was part of my preliminary assembly instructions.. =)

Sorry I missed your instructions.  Yes, trimming the legs flush to the PCB first will work.  No problem then.  I could have screwed up the LEDs.  I also tried a green 5V LED and shorted the resistor pads but the LED didn't light up.  I will volt meter test the LED pins next.  Thanks.

[alaricljs]

I just rebend a larger spacebar wire.  Do not get drill rods, they *should* be hardened steel and that breaks more than bends unless you heat treat and so forth... Home Depot has a stock metal rack in the hardware section that has the right stuff.

[litster]

I went to the Home Depot closest to me last time and the smallest they have is 1/8" and larger.  It is the area where they have all the chains, ropes, metal rods, and the metal thingie for garage door opener.  Did I go to the wrong place?  

Do you mean I need to get hardened steel, or do you mean drill rods are hardened steel and is no good?

[alaricljs]

Odd, my HD has around 3-5 sizes under 1/8"

Drill Rod should be hardened steel and you don't want that.  Sometimes vendors advertise their stock as drill rod due to it's tolerances even though it isn't hardened, only high carbon content and ready to be heat treated.  It's tough if you don't have a sample to play with.

[litster]

I will check other Home Depots around here.  If not drill rod, what material should I get?

[alaricljs]

Simple steel rod stock.

[bpiphany]

I think the square pads are on the ground side in this case, just like the other diodes... Test the LEDs both ways before you solder them, with the keyboard connected. I think it should work =)

[litster]

Actually, I did try that before I soldered the LEDs, touching the LEDs on the PCB while the keyboard is connected.  They didn't come on.  I need to get a new multimeter.  I think my current one is dead.

[bpiphany]

Ok, the LEDs seemed to work with the firmware when I tested it out on a breadboard. You'll have to dig into the code yourself and try to figure it out

Edit: Actually, worst case, the cathode pads are not connected to GND on the controller. Did you test for that? But I really don't think I managed to screwed that up...

[litster]

A simple change to the firmware code fixed the wrong keys and I can type on it 100%.  It wasn't really wrong, just the original firmware is for ANSI125.  Phantom prototype is ANSI150.  

I also installed the Phantom into my white acrylic case.  It fits!  The Phantom plate is a little smaller than the original Filco plate because Filco's bends down a bit at the top and bottom.  Because of that a little cushion on the bottom edge of the inside case, or a piece of really thin foam mat that the Koreans use in their custom cases should take care of that.  Anyone knows where I can buy that?



So the remaining work items are:
-Fix the LEDs (could be my ****ty soldering skill, bad components, or firmware)
-Be able to bend 6.25x and 7x Cherry stabilizer bars, maybe alaricljs could help :-)
-Create a full parts list
-Finalize pricing
-Set group buy close date
-Collect money

One problem is pretty much everyone is sold out of Cherry stabilizers.  May need to wait for them.

[dorkvader]

About the LED's: you can check if they're okay if your DMM has a diode mode: connect it, reverse it, and see what the Vf (forward voltage drop) of the LED is (sometimes it won't work, depending on the LED: high power CREE ones usually won't 'cause they're like 3.5V). Alternatively, put it in ohms mode, and see if there's continuity in one direction, and not for the other. If you can, test it in something else. I usually just grab a battery, and small resistor.

Before soldering LED's, I bend them by taking the longer wire, and making a dimple, and bending them out just a little. This is enough for contact, so it works out. I have an amp that I still haven't soldered the LED to it yet, 'cause it worked out so well.

You can test the PCB by ohm-ing out the trace. Maybe they missed a via or something? You can also put your DMM  (in volts mode, WRT ground) on whatever pin is supposed to supply LED power, and see if it goes "hot". It could be an issue with the code.

Just isolate every single part, to see which one failed. I hope it's something simple like putting them in backwards

[TheProfosist]

the foam do you mean the cabinet liner?

[litster]

About the LED's: you can check if they're okay if your DMM has a diode mode: connect it, reverse it, and see what the Vf (forward voltage drop) of the LED is (sometimes it won't work, depending on the LED: high power CREE ones usually won't 'cause they're like 3.5V). Alternatively, put it in ohms mode, and see if there's continuity in one direction, and not for the other. If you can, test it in something else. I usually just grab a battery, and small resistor.

Before soldering LED's, I bend them by taking the longer wire, and making a dimple, and bending them out just a little. This is enough for contact, so it works out. I have an amp that I still haven't soldered the LED to it yet, 'cause it worked out so well.

You can test the PCB by ohm-ing out the trace. Maybe they missed a via or something? You can also put your DMM  (in volts mode, WRT ground) on whatever pin is supposed to supply LED power, and see if it goes "hot". It could be an issue with the code.

Just isolate every single part, to see which one failed. I hope it's something simple like putting them in backwards

Damn it! It was me not knowing positive from negative!  I desoldered the LEDs, flip it over, and the work now!  

the foam do you mean the cabinet liner?

Yes, but need to be very thin.

[litster]

Everyone, please laugh at me now.  First I screwed up the polarity of the LEDs.  Now, the LEDs are so damn bright!  they hurt my eyes while sitting in a genuine Filco Tenkeyless case.




Need to program the firmware to add strobe tactical mode.

[video=youtube;RZCZ5Wi1Q7I#t=9s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RZCZ5Wi1Q7I#t=9s[/video]

Would a more resistive resistor make it dimer?

[bpiphany]

Would a more resistive resistor make it dimer?

Glad to see it working =D Yes a higher resistor could do that, I had gotten the ides (quite wrong apparently) that LEDs really wanted to stay close to their nominal current. Turns out it doesn't matter too much. On white LEDs the different color components might drift by a different amount when under feeding them though. It shouldn't take me too long to set up the PWM mode for those two LED channels. After that you have 255 steps of brightness to choose from! But not right now, I've got too much else to do =P

(There needs to be a combo section for threads both on geekhack and deskthority...)