Convince me to go tenkeyless, please.

[hfcobra]

I want to get a uniform 45g Realforce but they are not easy to come by in 104 key ANSI in America.  I have used full-size keyboards my entire life despite tenkeyless seeming to be much more popular around here.  Right now I have a Filco 104 with Browns and the 45g Topre will be the closest to browns that you can get as far as I know, except that it will be Topre and feel that much better and smoother.

So why does everyone around here like their tenkeyless boards so much?  I need some convincing.   

PS:  Getting a 55g full size might also be an option since it would be full-size AND cheaper, but I do not see it as an appealing weight for Topre.  I might sacrifice the number pad before I decide to get a 55g weighted full-size unless someone makes a convincing argument.  What is the cherry switch that feels closest to a 55g Realforce so I can at least have an idea of what I would like more?   I have tried a few switch types (brown, blue, black, red, Topre variable, and BS).  Since I tried a variable weight a while back I know what 55g feels like as an Esc key, but that is about it.

[sth]

just get a 45g uniform RF.

just get it!

do it.

there's always this too if you want to try and get one from taobao.
 

[MissMurd3r84]

Yesterday I decided to give my Black Widow a go to see just how much difference I could tell now between browns and blues and to see which I like better, let's just say, after using my Ducky YOTD TKL for a couple of months, a fullsized keyboard felt totally wrong. It was way too big for my desk and I felt it took up space for no reason. I'm not sure I would go back to a full sized one any time soon.

[Warduke]

My tenkeyless has ruined full sized keyboards for me. Now if I use a full size keyboard, it feels way too big, my trackball feels to far away, it's just feels wrong.

Now if Unicomp can come out with a tenkeyless Buckling Spring keyboard, I'll be very happy.

[fohat.digs]

I have a big ole dinosaur on my desk, but fortunately the desk has plenty of room for it.

I love the number pad and use it all the time, and I also enjoy the second set of function keys on the left.

Last year I switched to left-handed mousing, and that leaves my right hand free to write, draw, answer the telephone, etc.

Minimalism has its place and I like for many things to be as clean, simple, and and un-wasteful as possible, but my computer keyboard is not one of those.

[karljs]

Stick to your guns! TKL is the dark side.

For me it's not so much about size as it is aspect ratio of the keyboard. Unless you go to the extreme of getting an HHKB or similar, I find TKLs remind me of that special school bus that was shorter than the rest.

Coincidentally I'm sitting next to the Realforce 103 all 55g board that I'm selling in the classifieds. Shameless plug aside, it feels only marginally heavier than the browns I'm using to type this. If I didn't have both within arms reach I probably wouldn't know which had a lighter actuation force.

[longweight]

I want to get a uniform 45g Realforce but they are not easy to come by in 104 key ANSI in America.  I have used full-size keyboards my entire life despite tenkeyless seeming to be much more popular around here.  Right now I have a Filco 104 with Browns and the 45g Topre will be the closest to browns that you can get as far as I know, except that it will be Topre and feel that much better and smoother.

So why does everyone around here like their tenkeyless boards so much?  I need some convincing.   

PS:  Getting a 55g full size might also be an option since it would be full-size AND cheaper, but I do not see it as an appealing weight for Topre.  I might sacrifice the number pad before I decide to get a 55g weighted full-size unless someone makes a convincing argument.  What is the cherry switch that feels closest to a 55g Realforce so I can at least have an idea of what I would like more?   I have tried a few switch types (brown, blue, black, red, Topre variable, and BS).  Since I tried a variable weight a while back I know what 55g feels like as an Esc key, but that is about it.

I would get a TKL, so much better! 45g Topre isn't like browns but smoother, to me it has a more noticeable 'bump' as you depress the key. I love Topre and would go all Topre if my scarface caps would fit on a Torpe board!

[hfcobra]

Thanks for all the replys!  I think that I might just go for a tenkeyless board and keep my full size with browns in case I decid that I want to use a full size keyboard.   

Or maybe I'll love the TKL and then need to replace my full size Filco.   

[kurplop]

For me, the benefit of having the mouse or trackball close to the keyboard outweighs having a 10 key integrated in the board.  I use a trackball a lot doing CAD and reaching the extra distance would be less efficient.  I think if some one did a lot of numerical entries, a full size keyboard would make a lot more sense. I applaud those who switched to left hand mousing, it seems they get the best of both worlds.

[snow Crash]

You could always get a separate keypad if you decide you still want to use one later.

[tp4tissue]

Don't Go TKL.

A full size keyboard is responsible for the Classic typing experience. Overstretched shoulders, taught back, stiff wrists..

Do you really want to miss all of that pain and turmoil??? I think not

Stick to full size, for the fun....

[Neo.X]

I like TKL more, they look much better than a full one.

But I have to use full one, because I type IP address all the time and keypad makes it much faster. 

If you are not typing number a lot, then TKL for sure.

[daerid]

Unless you work in a field that requires heavy numerical data entry, take the time to relearn the top number row. Your hands will thank you. You'll be able to keep your fingers on the home row more often, which is more ergonomic.

[FoxWolf1]

Just use what you like.

Some people prefer TKL, because it allows the mouse to be placed closer to the most-used keys. This placement is more ergonomic, and offers an improvement in efficiency, since you don't have to move your hand as far when switching between the keyboard and the mouse.

Others miss having the numberpad when it's not there, whether they enter a lot of numbers or not. Sometimes, the number pad is used for controls in video games. Additionally, a couple of people I've talked to say they don't like TKL boards because they don't like the way their hand goes over the edge when using the arrow keys.

Buy based on what is right for your individual use pattern, even if that means getting something that is less popular.

[tp4tissue]

Just use what you like.

Some people prefer TKL, because it allows the mouse to be placed closer to the most-used keys. This placement is more ergonomic, and offers an improvement in efficiency, since you don't have to move your hand as far when switching between the keyboard and the mouse.

Others miss having the numberpad when it's not there, whether they enter a lot of numbers or not. Sometimes, the number pad is used for controls in video games. Additionally, a couple of people I've talked to say they don't like TKL boards because they don't like the way their hand goes over the edge when using the arrow keys.

Buy based on what is right for your individual use pattern, even if that means getting something that is less popular.

Picture to the rescue....

[metalliqaz]

Number pad is where the mouse should be, and hardly anyone uses it anymore.  At least, not for what it is supposed to be used for.  I'm never going back.

Also, tp4tissue's picture says it all.

[scytheR]

I personally prefer full size keyboards. But a few friends of mine own tenkeyless and their reasons for choosing it include "it's cute" or "doesn't take they much space on my desk or "I don't even use numpad anyway" now if none of those 3 reasons appeal to you there is no reason to go TKL

[swagpiratex]

Everyone at work has a fullsize, and they I don't know anyone who positions the board like the figure above. The keys are right in front of me, and the mouse is just displaced farther to the right. Mouse placement is not an issue for me though, because I have broad shoulders.

The TKL I have at home though is nice, thanks to Carter.

[Hyde]

I tried tenkeyless for 1 days, I do agree while for typing it's definitely better.  Feels more natural to type straight on.  But I use number pad a lot of 3D software and online banking.  That and I actually use the right side enter key a lot also.  So for me the number pad is a requirement, if you never have to use the number pad then by all means go for tenkeyless

[karljs]

Everyone at work has a fullsize, and they I don't know anyone who positions the board like the figure above. The keys are right in front of me, and the mouse is just displaced farther to the right. Mouse placement is not an issue for me though, because I have broad shoulders.

The TKL I have at home though is nice, thanks to Carter.

I'll second that. I understand there are advantages to the smaller form factor but that picture is simply misleading.

[gizzard]

Has anybody thought about going TKL + detachable numpad?  Im thinking using the TKL, storing the Numpad above my keyboard, and pulling it down over my mousepad when i need it for number crunching...

Why isnt this strategy popular

ps.  typing on my new model M.  holy crap this thing is loud:  worth the money, but not sure ill be able to use this in the office

[TheProfosist]

I use a 87UB 45g + 23UB and a HHKB Pro 2 +23UB though i dont put the numpad away and im try to actually try using it on the right side of the mouse.

Also i have solved the problem completely for those who want tkl and numpad. My Phantom and now custom Filco have the arrow and system keys in a layer and a numpad goes where they were, ill upload examples once i get to a pc.

[Saturn]

If you go with an 87U, it has a number pad built in.  Why would you need another?

Unless you do a ton of data entry in your job, you don't need the number pad at all.  Even most people with any old cherry TKL board could just rig up a fake numberpad in autohotkey and find it sufficient for their needs once they've gotten used to it.  From both an ergonomic and aesthetic standpoint (but mostly aesthetic), I'd prefer something that's smaller, cleaner, more minimalist.  Less clutter.  I have a huge aversion to large, clunky, clumsy looking devices and unnecessary things.

I would guess that for most people, the reason for using TKL is similar (ergonomic and aesthetic both).  If neither of those reasons are important to you or you use the 10key often, then there's no logical reason to go TKL.

[JaccoW]

The first few days, not having a numberpad and extra enter key on the right threw me off. I did order extra numpad keys from the Round 4 groupbuy to use on a seperate numpad, but I don't have one yet.
For me right now a TKL is perfect, because I am using it on a 1x1m desk. If I had to make room for the nupad my desk would be full.

[mmm]

I personally prefer full size keyboards. But a few friends of mine own tenkeyless and their reasons for choosing it include "it's cute" or "doesn't take that much space on my desk" or "I don't even use numpad anyway" now if none of those 3 reasons appeal to you there is no reason to go TKL

Untrue; if none of those reasons appeal, there is still the reason that the mouse is closer to the keyboard. Which physically (ergonomically) feels much better.
Just get a loose numpad, if a virtual numpad doesn't cut the cake. But: the problem is probably finding a affordable mechanical one. Actually I have a TKL and a (sh!tty rubber-dome) full-size attached to my PC; from the full-size I only (rarely) use the numpad .

[Deverica Wolf]

Picture to the rescue....

Show Image

This is no joke. I've used a full size all my life (25) and even bought two last year. But after trying a TKL, I can not go back, simply for the reasons the picture shows: It is uncomfortable, and if you adjust it, your mouse is then too far to the right and becomes uncomfortable. The use of a full-size has to be for typing only (no mouse), which is why I will never get rid of my Unicomp Spacesaver. I do like the Numpad and used it so I say get a Filco or Topre Numpad and put it on your left.

[mmm]

Source:
http://www.backshop.nl/nl_NL/producten/toetsenborden/compacte-toetsenborden/s-board-840-saturnus-toetsenbord

[fohat.digs]

Regardless of opinion, all these diagrams irritate me because, without exception, they depict a mouse placed close to the TKL keyboard but spaced much farther from the full-size.

They also depict a "left-justified" placement of the entire assembly instead of centering it all on the eye-monitor axis.

Perhaps because there are a number of inveterate exaggerators in my immediate circle of family and friends, I am hypersensitive to distortions being used to bolster a position.

Your point is valid but twisted illustrations serve to impeach your argument rather than strengthen it.

[jeroplane]

Regardless of opinion, all these diagrams irritate me because, without exception, they depict a mouse placed close to the TKL keyboard but spaced much farther from the full-size.

They also depict a "left-justified" placement of the entire assembly instead of centering it all on the eye-monitor axis.

Perhaps because there are a number of inveterate exaggerators in my immediate circle of family and friends, I am hypersensitive to distortions being used to bolster a position.

Your point is valid but twisted illustrations serve to impeach your argument rather than strengthen it.

Hear, hear.

[Deekin]

I recently switched from fullsize to tenkeyless. I like it so far.

The only complaint, or I should say comment is that I have realized that when I just want to game (using the left hand for the keyboard and right hand on the mouse) compared to when I just want to type (both hands on the keyboard) I want the keyboard to be placed differently between these two setups. Right now I am typing and have the keyboard just in the middle infront of me so there is no strain on either hand/arm. But when I want to game, as said I place the right hand on the mouse and have realized that I prefer the keyboard to be alittle more to the left when I do this so that  the right hand where the mouse is, is moved alittle more to the left aswell so that the mouse almost comes into position where I have the right hand while I type so that the hands/arms are in the best comfortable position also while I game. So basically when I switch from just gaming to just typing I need to switch the position of the keyboard and mouse alittle bit from right to left and so on depending on what I want to do. This is alot better than before though since I couldnt move my keyboard really to the right or left this little distance needed but now I can with this small and compact TKL and find a comfortable position easier while I want to both game and type!!!

So go TKL if you dont need the numpad, the times I need to pay my rent or other stuff or when I write my personal ID (numbers) I just use the numberrow, sure its slower but just SUPER slightly. Also I use the arrowkeys for example when I browse manga on the net and sometimes in windows. But if you dont need those you could go for a even more compact keyboard like a Poker, Pure, Race or Choco Mini!

[metalliqaz]

Show Image

Show Image

Source:
http://www.backshop.nl/nl_NL/producten/toetsenborden/compacte-toetsenborden/s-board-840-saturnus-toetsenbord

I work at a large conglomerate, and they take carpel tunnel and RSI very seriously.  Anytime anyone has any issues with their arms or wrists, they immediately replace the fullsize keyboard with a tenkeyless.  The above picture is exactly why.  They gave me this one, which turned out to be a terrible scissor-style.  I replaced it with a Filco of my own.

[jeroplane]

I work at a large conglomerate, and they take carpel tunnel and RSI very seriously.  Anytime anyone has any issues with their arms or wrists, they immediately replace the fullsize keyboard with a tenkeyless.  The above picture is exactly why.  They gave me this one, which turned out to be a terrible scissor-style.  I replaced it with a Filco of my own.

Love the marketing on that one as a "Mouse-Friendly" (trademarked!) keyboard.

[karazi]

My job being in finance, I often need to input numbers so a numpad is essential as it is far more intuitive and faster than the number row when mastered.  If there were a relatively cheap cherry brown numpad I may go TKL + numpad with mouse inbetween, but then again, if one is using the numpad often, the efficiency of having the mouse closer may be negated completely or even more so if the user reaches for the numpad more often than the mouse.

[hfcobra]

Thanks again for the replies.   

I think I will give TKL a go and see how I like it.

[snow Crash]

It's a missed opportunity that once computers began to have a GUI they didn't move the numpad cluster to the left side. (although that would suck if you were left-handed I guess.

Thanks again for the replies.   

I think I will give TKL a go and see how I like it.

Like i said, you could always get a separate numpad if you find you miss it too much. I've just brought a tenkeyless myself oddly because my g84-4100 is just too small.

[TheProfosist]

I use a 87UB 45g + 23UB and a HHKB Pro 2 +23UB though i dont put the numpad away and im try to actually try using it on the right side of the mouse.

Also i have solved the problem completely for those who want tkl and numpad. My Phantom and now custom Filco have the arrow and system keys in a layer and a numpad goes where they were, ill upload examples once i get to a pc.

Well here are my layouts that have solver my insue of wanting a TKL size but also wanting a number pad:


Phantom Custom 7bit Layout






Filco HID Liberated Device Custom Layout (work in progress)

[Skull_Angel]

I still don't really understand why manufacturers keep the system+arrow keys over the number pad when trying to shorten up the board. I mean the number pad takes over that area when you turn the number lock off any way O.o

edit: I understand it adds one more row of keys; but come on, is that really so terrible?

[metalliqaz]

By that same token, why keep the number pad?  It duplicates keys that already exist elsewhere.  I'm too used to my T arrows to switch now!

[Skull_Angel]

It would be a more business-friendly design imo. You keep the simple number pad format for when you need to input numbers, but still have the system and arrow keys if they become necessary.

[metalliqaz]

I like that custom 7bit layout, Profosist.  Notice there are three control keys on the main layer.  Just wondering, if you prefer the Control in the Caps lock spot, why don't you get rid of the left corner and add another Fn key?

[tp4tissue]

Regardless of opinion, all these diagrams irritate me because, without exception, they depict a mouse placed close to the TKL keyboard but spaced much farther from the full-size.

They also depict a "left-justified" placement of the entire assembly instead of centering it all on the eye-monitor axis.

Perhaps because there are a number of inveterate exaggerators in my immediate circle of family and friends, I am hypersensitive to distortions being used to bolster a position.

Your point is valid but twisted illustrations serve to impeach your argument rather than strengthen it.

You know what you're known as in Britain?  ... A Cun7...   

[dorkvader]

I just put my trackball under the tenkey of my unicomp. It's not prefect, but it does still works really well.

[TheProfosist]

I still don't really understand why manufacturers keep the system+arrow keys over the number pad when trying to shorten up the board. I mean the number pad takes over that area when you turn the number lock off any way O.o

edit: I understand it adds one more row of keys; but come on, is that really so terrible?

What do you think about this layout?

I like that custom 7bit layout, Profosist.  Notice there are three control keys on the main layer.  Just wondering, if you prefer the Control in the Caps lock spot, why don't you get rid of the left corner and add another Fn key?

The other ctrls are for when others that are not used to the ctrl instead of capslock. Also there are already 2 fn keys on the board so everything is good in that regard.

[Skull_Angel]

What do you think about this layout?

Show Image

Show Image

Not what I had in mind, but I like the layout much more. Very nice /thumbsup

[TheProfosist]

What do you think about this layout?

Show Image

Show Image

Not what I had in mind, but I like the layout much more. Very nice /thumbsup

i originally made it for WASD when he was looking for alternative layouts, now if he would put it into production.

[metalliqaz]

The other ctrls are for when others that are not used to the ctrl instead of capslock. Also there are already 2 fn keys on the board so everything is good in that regard.

Ah, yes.  Didn't see that other Fn key.  Man, I could not use that keyboard... ANSI muscle memory!

[TheProfosist]

The other ctrls are for when others that are not used to the ctrl instead of capslock. Also there are already 2 fn keys on the board so everything is good in that regard.

Ah, yes.  Didn't see that other Fn key.  Man, I could not use that keyboard... ANSI muscle memory!

Took me a little less than a week but now im kinda screwed using anything else i go for the arrows in the layer on every keyboard.