Elementary School Shooting, Newtown CT - 26 innocent dead, 20 children

[longweight]

This thread makes me very glad that I live in the UK and not the US!

[keyboardlover]

I only WISH I could blame all the serious fundamental problems of the U.S. which cause serious tragedies to happen on individual gun ownership...

But I know better.

[Malphas]

I don't blame it on that. I blame it on the US's utterly ****ed up society in general. I'm anti-gun control personally (I own guns and rifles also), but that said all these nutjob losers that shoot up schools or workplaces or whatever always seem to use legally-purchased firearms, which kind of flies in the face of the whole hackneyed "if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them" argument the US pro-gun lobby like to repeat endlessly.

[longweight]

It isn't just gun ownership but that factor allows these people to make a huge impact with minimal thought or effort.

[keyboardlover]

Yea but that doesn't negate the fact that the vast majority of gun violence here occurs in poor, low-income areas with illegal weapons. But the majority of the pro-gun lobbyists are corrupt and bought and sold anyway, so what they say doesn't really matter.

What really bothers me is some of the other statistics, how reports of mental illness are at all-time highs, more babies are being born with mental disabilities than ever here, etc. Not to mention that there has possibly never been so much more dissatisfaction with our political situation. Most people aren't happy about it, very few have a good idea why, and those who are, are simply believing the lies of politicians. In general, we have a lot of unhappy and crazy people here, and that really bothers me. And does it bother me that these people can own weapons? Yea, definitely. But many of them are government employees, and criminals, so laws on gun control won't affect them..

[Malphas]

It isn't just gun ownership but that factor allows these people to make a huge impact with minimal thought or effort.

Yeah, exactly. But that said, I'm still not an advocate of more gun control because I don't think the trade off of inconveniencing all the law-abiding, normal firearm users is worth it, just to potentially eradicate the tragedies that do occur. Other people might disagree and feel it's totally worth it, and that's fair enough, it's a subjective thing.

[longweight]

I honestly cannot see  a way out for the US, the government has been losing money since 1945, the nation is still fragmented, crippled by religious beliefs and many other problems.
 
Where do you go from here?!

[keyboardlover]

Well, the UK has its issues too. But fortunately for them, like Switzerland and Norway, they have so much freaking capital that they won't experience the kinds of problems we and the EU are experiencing for a very long time. Unless they find a way out by then. Which, historical evidence shows, would likely be one of force.

[metafour]

Both relevant to this discussion:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation?page=1

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/set-date-and-time-have-conversation-about-gun-policy-united-states/gzWCnDSX

[longweight]

The UK does have issues but they are relatively minor compared to those of the US and the EU which doesn't seem to have much longer left!
 
Also the UK has a genuine position in the modern marketplace, whether the government will support the education that the next generation needs is another thing.

[keyboardlover]

Both relevant to this discussion:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation?page=1

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/set-date-and-time-have-conversation-about-gun-policy-united-states/gzWCnDSX

Both of those links are pure propaganda.

The UK does have issues but they are relatively minor compared to those of the US and the EU which doesn't seem to have much longer left!

They are not minor issues at all. They are very significant structural issues which the majority of citizens aren't aware of only because of how rich your country is.

[Malphas]

The UK's issues are more like practical problems that can be dealt with though (though I'm sceptical that they will be in a satisfactory manner) rather than deeply ingrained ****ed-up things the US has like retard fundamental Christians and their twisted moral compass, or rampant consumerism/materialism (everywhere has that obviously, but it's much worse there), or just societal hypocrisy in general.

[metafour]

Both relevant to this discussion:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation?page=1

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/set-date-and-time-have-conversation-about-gun-policy-united-states/gzWCnDSX

Both of those links are pure propaganda.

Of course they are. They disagree with your views and/or contain facts.

[longweight]

Well said Malphas.

[longweight]

Both relevant to this discussion:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation?page=1

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/set-date-and-time-have-conversation-about-gun-policy-united-states/gzWCnDSX

Both of those links are pure propaganda.

The UK does have issues but they are relatively minor compared to those of the US and the EU which doesn't seem to have much longer left!

They are not minor issues at all. They are very significant structural issues which the majority of citizens aren't aware of only because of how rich your country is.

What problems do you refer to?

[keyboardlover]

Of course they are. They disagree with your views and/or contain facts.

The first one contains facts which are completely irrelevant.

The second one is just laughable. Like any of those petitions matter. If they did, Texas would have been given the green light to secede by now. People still think we live in a democracy. Stahp! This ain't no democracy!

What problems do you refer to?

Your economical structure, likes ours, is not sustainable.

[microsoft windows]

The UK's issues are more like practical problems that can be dealt with though (though I'm sceptical that they will be in a satisfactory manner) rather than deeply ingrained ****ed-up things the US has like retard fundamental Christians and their twisted moral compass, or rampant consumerism/materialism (everywhere has that obviously, but it's much worse there), or just societal hypocrisy in general.

What do you have against the fundamentalist Christians of modern-day America? I'd say they're worlds better than the fundamentalist Muslims halfway across the globe who spread hate, violence, and destruction.

[longweight]

Of course they are. They disagree with your views and/or contain facts.

The first one contains facts which are completely irrelevant.

The second one is just laughable. Like any of those petitions matter. If they did, Texas would have been given the green light to secede by now. People still think we live in a democracy. Stahp! This ain't no democracy!

What problems do you refer to?

Your economical structure, likes ours, is not sustainable.

Why isn't ours? We have a future and a (currently) shrinking welfare program.

[longweight]

The UK's issues are more like practical problems that can be dealt with though (though I'm sceptical that they will be in a satisfactory manner) rather than deeply ingrained ****ed-up things the US has like retard fundamental Christians and their twisted moral compass, or rampant consumerism/materialism (everywhere has that obviously, but it's much worse there), or just societal hypocrisy in general.

What do you have against the fundamentalist Christians of modern-day America? I'd say they're worlds better than the fundamentalist Muslims halfway across the globe who spread hate, violence, and destruction.

They are the same thing.

[keyboardlover]

Why isn't ours? We have a future and a (currently) shrinking welfare program.

It's one based on collectivism.

In addition to the U.S. societal problems I brought up before about the increasing mental illness and discontent in our society: the very relevant increased prescription and use of psychotropic drugs used to treat things like depression and anxiety are very disturbing. Statistics have shown that the vast majority of folks who commit these atrocities are not only mentally ill, but taking some form of medication like this. These medications, of course, are all FDA-approved.

And people wonder why I don't trust the FDA!

[Malphas]

What do you have against the fundamentalist Christians of modern-day America? I'd say they're worlds better than the fundamentalist Muslims halfway across the globe who spread hate, violence, and destruction.

Yeah, thing is the fact you can find an item B worse than item A doesn't mean A is no longer bad. That's like if I complained about a pizza having anchovies and you saying "hey Malphas, what's wrong with anchovies? It's worlds better than dog feces".

i.e. The fact that the Arab world and fundamental Muslims are more ****ed up than the USA and Fundamental Christians doesn't negate the fact the latter are still ****ed up. Also, "spreading hate, violence, and destruction" (you could also add ignorant to the list) is something fundamental Christians do pretty well with their anti-Abortion violence, pro-death penalty stance, anti-teaching of evolution/science in general, pro-War stance, etc. etc.

[longweight]

True but it is a capitalistic take on collectivism so I don't really mind. I think that it is the best you will get with a two party system running the government of a Capitalistic nation that has a fractional reserve banking system.


The use of prescribed drugs in the US is shocking, it is a great example of treating the symptom not the cause.

[keyboardlover]

Well, and the Big Pharma companies are lobbyists too - which to me, shows the worthlessness of our so-called "democracy" and IMHO, points to a much larger evil at work here, when we're referring to major gun-related (and otherwise) atrocities being performed in our country, by people under the influence of these chemicals.

What do you have against the fundamentalist Christians of modern-day America? I'd say they're worlds better than the fundamentalist Muslims halfway across the globe who spread hate, violence, and destruction.

They are the same thing.

Couldn't agree more. Well said.

[tjcaustin]

Two things:

Are malphas and KL not arguing?!

And democracy and more specifically the constitutional republic (of which the US truly is) is broken.  Too much greed as poisoned the well dug by the founding fathers and because of that, drives mistrust into everything that happens.

[Malphas]

To be honest, I was resisting the urge to make fun of KL for his more stereotypical Libertard exclamations.

[iri]

The UK's issues are more like practical problems that can be dealt with though (though I'm sceptical that they will be in a satisfactory manner) rather than deeply ingrained ****ed-up things the US has like retard fundamental Christians and their twisted moral compass, or rampant consumerism/materialism (everywhere has that obviously, but it's much worse there), or just societal hypocrisy in general.

What do you have against the fundamentalist Christians of modern-day America? I'd say they're worlds better than the fundamentalist Muslims halfway across the globe who spread hate, violence, and destruction.

They are the same thing.

haven't seen american fundamental christians in 9/11-like "breaking news". and luckily they haven't blown up a single person in here.

[longweight]

The UK's issues are more like practical problems that can be dealt with though (though I'm sceptical that they will be in a satisfactory manner) rather than deeply ingrained ****ed-up things the US has like retard fundamental Christians and their twisted moral compass, or rampant consumerism/materialism (everywhere has that obviously, but it's much worse there), or just societal hypocrisy in general.

What do you have against the fundamentalist Christians of modern-day America? I'd say they're worlds better than the fundamentalist Muslims halfway across the globe who spread hate, violence, and destruction.

They are the same thing.

haven't seen american fundamental christians in 9/11-like "breaking news". and luckily they haven't blown up a single person in here.

Only because they haven't been pushed far enough. They share the same ideals and bigoted hatred.


Same thing.

[keyboardlover]

To be honest, I was resisting the urge to make fun of KL for his more stereotypical Libertard exclamations.

Just by the fact that you're calling me names, and couldn't effectively debate me in two threads by now, I'm really not too worried about what you think of any of my views.

Ever notice how the people who call other people crazy, seem to have the views that are REALLY crazy?

Only because they haven't been pushed far enough. They share the same ideals and bigoted hatred.

Same thing.

Correct. No one is dropping bombs on them.

[tp4tissue]

it's like you go out of your way to be a complete jackass tp4.

I very much see the tragedy and feel that tug' at my chest when I heard the news.

However, my point about the "loss" accounted for is valid.

In Civ, would you rather lose a bunch of soldiers, or say, Einstein..


Which is why it is most often prudent to remain averse to strong emotional drifts.

[tp4tissue]

As another person that lives right down the road from Newtown, this has changed nothing about my idea of Newtown's 'safeness' level.  It also doesn't change how I feel in my own town.  These are the kinds of events that do not in any way reflect the type of town they end up happening in.

The unfortunate truth is that while the security *standards* at schools in this area have been enough to stop this from happening for some time now, the level of compliance by those responsible is lacking.  The doors are locked and you must get buzzed in by the secretary, but quite often they don't pay attention to who is at the door.

I would think that unless the standards actually included compulsory pat downs, he still would have had little trouble getting into the school as he was a son of one of the teachers, correct?  I don't know about you, but when I visit my mom at work, I'm recognized and associated with familiar and safe.  /shrug

Things should be scrutinized, of course, but this seems more like a freak occurrence than a complete failure of a system put in place.

For all you know we just lost some. 

HIGHLY unlikely.....  However if they shot up the math department of any ivyleague, that would be certain lose of immense brain power.

As for you, it's like you want to be ripster 2.0 and that's all the energy I'll put into it.

Not everything Ripster said was "correct", but most of it was rational... And he probably has aspergers, so his demeanor is also valid.

[Malphas]

it's like you go out of your way to be a complete jackass tp4.

I very much see the tragedy and feel that tug' at my chest when I heard the news.

However, my point about the "loss" accounted for is valid.

In Civ, would you rather lose a bunch of soldiers, or say, Einstein..


Which is why it is most often prudent to remain averse to strong emotional drifts.

Yeah, I think the point you don't get is that societal worth has got **** all to do with anything here and was only brought up by you. No-one is interested in your aspergers-driven attempts at philosophising or your inappropriate videogame analogies.

Also, although I personally found ripster to be hilarious and didn't dislike him the way some others here did, his quest for attention on the Internet - positive or negative - did seem to be an indicator of him massively overcompensating for real life failings. Not someone you really want to emulate.

[tp4tissue]

it's like you go out of your way to be a complete jackass tp4.

I very much see the tragedy and feel that tug' at my chest when I heard the news.

However, my point about the "loss" accounted for is valid.

In Civ, would you rather lose a bunch of soldiers, or say, Einstein..


Which is why it is most often prudent to remain averse to strong emotional drifts.

Yeah, I think the point you don't get is that societal worth has got **** all to do with anything here and was only brought up by you. No-one is interested in your aspergers-driven attempts at philosophising or your inappropriate videogame analogies.

Also, although I personally found ripster to be hilarious and didn't dislike him the way some others here did, his quest for attention on the Internet - positive or negative - did seem to be an indicator of him massively overcompensating for real life failings. Not someone you really want to emulate.

Oh please, and you're just the super success and one with every right to talk down to others..

Ripster is internet-born like the rest of us. Get over yourself.

[SmallFry]

Guys, lets calm down a little... There's bigger things in this world than flame wars in threads over something this devastating.

[keyboardlover]

Guys, lets calm down a little... There's bigger things in this world than flame wars in threads over something this devastating.

Kinda puts things in perspective a bit, doesn't it. The world is a very, very ****ed up place. It's important that we make time for and appreciate the things in life that truly make it worth living, like family and friends IMO.

[Malphas]

Or recreational drugs and trashy women in my case.

[tp4tissue]

Or recreational drugs and trashy women in my case.

 

Hmm.. so I see we're more similar than I had previously thought. though I am not into drugs, low body weight.  )

[tp4tissue]

Also, I just watched OBAMA's post cataclysm broadcast.. That whole tearing up drama look so fake... How can a president who can sit through hundreds of soldiers dieing for only the sake of Oil conglomerate possibly be affected by dead children.

Though we can't hold OBAMA accountable, he is quite an ineffective person in all ways of WAR.   By his inaction, thousands die. And here we are watching him fake cry over some dead babies.

[TheQsanity]

Your signature says t all.
Put your differences aside. Most people don't understand, see and a lot of the times would disagree, but truth is we are all living animals with a conscience. If we just realize that we are organisms made of tissues and cells, most people "know" that but don't understand what they know. Take out your bias and take out your attachment. We are noting more than material, think I am wrong? Press your hands against your stomach, can you visualize anything under the skin? Try your head, jaw, hand... There is something under your skin and it is not an "everlasting soul". Who is going to remember you when you die one hundred years from now. One hundred years ago we had almost two billion, now we have a little more than seven billion. Chances are that we won't make an impact on the people of the future but if we treat the people we meet today with respect and love each other for just the fact we all have to live in this world and suffer the same pains.

Stop hating the things you do not have or the people that have what you want or the people you think is keeping what you want from you. Love what you have and love the the next person, no one asked to be in this world.

The "world" is all your perception, but if you make someone else's perception your's, your perception becomes the "world's".

100% true but for some reasons hard to bear in mind,
it's not easy to accept that in the end we are only flesh and bones

At least you know. Just live life with a smile and make the best of what you have. It is not a bad thing that we are flesh and bones but the world makes a lot more sense when we know that.


There are  7 billion people in this world and there are a lot of great, nice, amazing people, but there are just as many stupid, arrogant, crazy people that I could hate. With the amount of people there are in this world, a number more than I could ever count, I can expect that there are a lot of stupid, arrogant, crazy people in this world. Anything can happen. Everyone wants to pursuit happiness but no one wants to despair. Politicians may be corrupt and society may be wrong but in the end we need to pity them instead of despising them.

I feel sorry for the manslaughterer as if the society tried to understand him more and treat him, this may not have happened. I feel more suppressed sorrow for the young kids, teachers and the family affected. It would be too sad for me to think about the unbearable headache, despair, and  emotional distress they are in. I would never want to lose my younger brother, sister, cousin, son, daughter, aunt, uncle, mother, father that way. I would be in a tornado of denial. No one should lose a family member during this normally joyous season. Their lives will change forever and be reminded every year that you once gave a smile to your child but nothing you give can bring that smile back or even your own smile of pleasing your child. I can't imagine how many years have to go by before they get over it. It is like losing years of your life to one thought, "When can they come back, when can I go back?"

[funkymeeba]

Man, this thread got derailed like none other. Holy god.

[tp4tissue]

Your signature says t all.
Put your differences aside. Most people don't understand, see and a lot of the times would disagree, but truth is we are all living animals with a conscience. If we just realize that we are organisms made of tissues and cells, most people "know" that but don't understand what they know. Take out your bias and take out your attachment. We are noting more than material, think I am wrong? Press your hands against your stomach, can you visualize anything under the skin? Try your head, jaw, hand... There is something under your skin and it is not an "everlasting soul". Who is going to remember you when you die one hundred years from now. One hundred years ago we had almost two billion, now we have a little more than seven billion. Chances are that we won't make an impact on the people of the future but if we treat the people we meet today with respect and love each other for just the fact we all have to live in this world and suffer the same pains.

Stop hating the things you do not have or the people that have what you want or the people you think is keeping what you want from you. Love what you have and love the the next person, no one asked to be in this world.

The "world" is all your perception, but if you make someone else's perception your's, your perception becomes the "world's".

100% true but for some reasons hard to bear in mind,
it's not easy to accept that in the end we are only flesh and bones

At least you know. Just live life with a smile and make the best of what you have. It is not a bad thing that we are flesh and bones but the world makes a lot more sense when we know that.


There are  7 billion people in this world and there are a lot of great, nice, amazing people, but there are just as many stupid, arrogant, crazy people that I could hate. With the amount of people there are in this world, a number more than I could ever count, I can expect that there are a lot of stupid, arrogant, crazy people in this world. Anything can happen. Everyone wants to pursuit happiness but no one wants to despair. Politicians may be corrupt and society may be wrong but in the end we need to pity them instead of despising them.

I feel sorry for the manslaughterer as if the society tried to understand him more and treat him, this may not have happened. I feel more suppressed sorrow for the young kids, teachers and the family affected. It would be too sad for me to think about the unbearable headache, despair, and  emotional distress they are in. I would never want to lose my younger brother, sister, cousin, son, daughter, aunt, uncle, mother, father that way. I would be in a tornado of denial. No one should lose a family member during this normally joyous season. Their lives will change forever and be reminded every year that you once gave a smile to your child but nothing you give can bring that smile back or even your own smile of pleasing your child. I can't imagine how many years have to go by before they get over it. It is like losing years of your life to one thought, "When can they come back, when can I go back?"

LOL, kids and their verbal diarrhea...   

[demik]

pot, meet kettle.

[TheQsanity]

Count 1 to 1 billion see how long it takes you.

Your signature says t all.
Put your differences aside. Most people don't understand, see and a lot of the times would disagree, but truth is we are all living animals with a conscience. If we just realize that we are organisms made of tissues and cells, most people "know" that but don't understand what they know. Take out your bias and take out your attachment. We are noting more than material, think I am wrong? Press your hands against your stomach, can you visualize anything under the skin? Try your head, jaw, hand... There is something under your skin and it is not an "everlasting soul". Who is going to remember you when you die one hundred years from now. One hundred years ago we had almost two billion, now we have a little more than seven billion. Chances are that we won't make an impact on the people of the future but if we treat the people we meet today with respect and love each other for just the fact we all have to live in this world and suffer the same pains.

Stop hating the things you do not have or the people that have what you want or the people you think is keeping what you want from you. Love what you have and love the the next person, no one asked to be in this world.

The "world" is all your perception, but if you make someone else's perception your's, your perception becomes the "world's".

100% true but for some reasons hard to bear in mind,
it's not easy to accept that in the end we are only flesh and bones

At least you know. Just live life with a smile and make the best of what you have. It is not a bad thing that we are flesh and bones but the world makes a lot more sense when we know that.


There are  7 billion people in this world and there are a lot of great, nice, amazing people, but there are just as many stupid, arrogant, crazy people that I could hate. With the amount of people there are in this world, a number more than I could ever count, I can expect that there are a lot of stupid, arrogant, crazy people in this world. Anything can happen. Everyone wants to pursuit happiness but no one wants to despair. Politicians may be corrupt and society may be wrong but in the end we need to pity them instead of despising them.

I feel sorry for the manslaughterer as if the society tried to understand him more and treat him, this may not have happened. I feel more suppressed sorrow for the young kids, teachers and the family affected. It would be too sad for me to think about the unbearable headache, despair, and  emotional distress they are in. I would never want to lose my younger brother, sister, cousin, son, daughter, aunt, uncle, mother, father that way. I would be in a tornado of denial. No one should lose a family member during this normally joyous season. Their lives will change forever and be reminded every year that you once gave a smile to your child but nothing you give can bring that smile back or even your own smile of pleasing your child. I can't imagine how many years have to go by before they get over it. It is like losing years of your life to one thought, "When can they come back, when can I go back?"

LOL, kids and their verbal diarrhea...   

[Malphas]

pot, meet kettle.

My thoughts exactly.

[TheQsanity]

pot, meet kettle.

At me or Tip?

[demik]

you've only been here for a bit.

so, not directed towards you

[keyboardlover]

Or recreational drugs and trashy women in my case.

Well and that's the whole point about freedom right? What's important to you isn't necessarily important to me - but I don't want to tell you what to do with your free time, nor should you encroach on mine.

Though we can't hold OBAMA accountable, he is quite an ineffective person in all ways of WAR.   By his inaction, thousands die. And here we are watching him fake cry over some dead babies.

This is what really bothers me. He orders CIA killings of children all the time. It's his job.

And believe me, I'm not a huge fan of Ron Paul, but there was a reason why in his retirement speech to congress he literally called them all a bunch of psychopaths. He wasn't mincing words or being sarcastic or something like that. It's because they truly are psychopaths. And there is a belief that the structure of government is exactly the type of thing which attracts people like that - people who want power, and who want to control the lives of others.

[YoungMichael88]

The truth is thanks to the media coverage of these events there's someone out there who is already planning a way to "one up" this **** instead of killing themselves in their basement like they should have just done in the first place. Thank you News Media, YOU killed all these kids when you decided to broadcast tragedies like this as if its a reality show. Some of you may argue "we want an explanation" when the truth is its none of your ****ing business. Unless your family or friends of the victims, you're not owed an explanation of any kind.

[demik]

instead of killing themselves in their basement like they should have just done in the first place.

that is a terrible attitude.

but i agree with the rest of your statement.

[keyboardlover]

The truth is thanks to the media coverage of these events there's someone out there who is already planning a way to "one up" this **** instead of killing themselves in their basement like they should have just done in the first place. Thank you News Media, YOU killed all these kids when you decided to broadcast tragedies like this as if its a reality show. Some of you may argue "we want an explanation" when the truth is its none of your ****ing business. Unless your family or friends of the victims, you're not owed an explanation of any kind.

Yea that's another big problem people are starting to bring up - for instance everyone knows the names "Dylan Klebold" and "Eric Harris". But do most people remember any of the names of those poor defenseless children those two psychos murdered? Unfortunately no, media sensationalism made these two guys into ****ing rockstars. And who is in bed with the media? ...........

[YoungMichael88]

instead of killing themselves in their basement like they should have just done in the first place.

that is a terrible attitude.

but i agree with the rest of your statement.

yea I get that it's a terrible thing to say. But we are talking about terrible people here. Who have done terrible things. I have a feeling these people were far beyond being "talked off the ledge".