Author Topic: GH Ergo Community + Suggested Ergonomic Practices + GH Ergonomics Guide  (Read 11002 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lanx

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1914
%RESERVED%

[Edit - I've merged the GH Ergo Community 2013+Suggested Ergonomic Practices and GH Ergonomics Guide (Discussion) threads

The guide can be found here - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.msg1224224#msg1224224

The GH Ergonomics (Discussion) thread now starts at post 32 - but earlier posts are well worth a look

Lanx - I hope you don't mind me hijacking your post for a while - Hoggy]

Offline Lanx

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1914
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 29 August 2013, 20:31:36 »
Hey guys, so i think we're actually the leaders and for-runners in ergonomics here on the www. Really i do, all the info you even search for is post 1990 stuff, hell some of the images show beige crt monitors!

Guys we live in the year 2013 and hopefully this guide will take us another 5 or so years, basically we and technology has changed.

Ok this sounds a little hypocritical, i am using a 20 year old designed ergonomic keyboard, BUT i'm typing this on a free standing ergotron keyboard arm, looking at two 24in lcd's held by more ergotron arms, sitting in a damn $600 spacechair.

As most of us know ergonomics begins with the entire body, it sounds very new age and hippie, but you have to fix your body first before you can focus on you're rsi.

So let's come together, let''s make a 2013 GeekHack ergonomic guide! hell i ppl i see that try to make ergonomic standards are 60 year old secretaries who have busted up their wrists and wear forearm splits, there has to be better.

I don't know how we should start, but i think just getting the discussion rolling is better than nothing (that's why i resevered the first post)

*ps*
i know we have a great chair guide and i plan to incorporate that knowledge, we just need everything else

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1496
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 02:02:39 »
Fantastic idea - is the final result going to be a wiki page?

[edit - perhaps we should ask a mod to make this a sticky]

Some topics for discussion (just an idea and in no particular order)-
 
 see your doctor - geekhack isn't the worst place to get medical advice, but it's no substitute.

 desk setup - keyboard trays/arms, monitor arms, standing desks, sit-stand desks

 keyboard layouts - qwerty/dvorak/colemak, typing style
  Switching layouts is unlikely to make you a faster or more accurate typist, but it will reduce the finger travel and should make your day more comfortable.  It will take weeks to adjust.

 pointing devices

 best practice - rest breaks, changes in setup (swapping mouse hand etc), give the gaming up for a while, text expansion and macros.  If you have to drive 200 miles, you'll probably take a break.  If you had to run 10 miles, you'll probably take a break.  Try taking a short break every hour - just for a week to see if you productivity suffers.

 products to consider buying - not everyone is the same, but recommendations might include the following (no particular order)
  Kinesis advantage, ergodox, goldtouch, kinesis freestyle

 products to avoid (or at least those you'll want to replace soon)
 
 personal stories

 mindset (that dream you have of going outside one day?  There's nothing stopping you)

 how to persuade IT to let you use an ergo keyboard.
  The reason might be policy (driven by the possibility of you bringing in a keyboard virus - daft).
  Fear that you'll eat into their budget.
  They might be uncomfortable with the thought of having to use it themselves.
 
  - Talk to your HR department first - ask them to buy the keyboard for you (although you'll have less control over what you get this way)

 other resources - links to other sites

I'm sure these can be improved and added to.
« Last Edit: Fri, 30 August 2013, 15:42:49 by hoggy »
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline dotancohen

  • Posts: 136
    • Dotan Cohen
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 05:02:21 »
On the topic of pointing devices, I will mention that I have been using a vertical mouse from these guys for almost a year and it has completely changed my perception of pointing devices. I also have a trackpad on my keyboard, which I will use often if I'm stuck with a regular mouse, but the vertical mouse is actually more comfortable than the trackpad. The difference in posture is huge.

The downside is that I like to vary my mouse-using hand and that is impossible with the vertical mouse. I've been considering putting a regular mouse on the left side for that hand, but I find it hard to mentally justify three pointing devices!

Offline vivalarevolución

  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: Naptown, Indiana, USA
  • Keep it real b/c any other way is too stressful
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 15:23:18 »
I am a huge proponent of standing workstations with a tall stool to sit on when you get tired of standing.  Being in one position for too long is never a healthy solution.   And the benefit of standing for some of the time is that your chair does not have to be that fancy for you to be comfortable.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Posts: 982
  • "Losing the digital battle one digit at a time."
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 30 August 2013, 17:57:46 »
Thanks for taking the initiative to suggest this. We are very much in need of a well organized one stop ergo database.  I'm willing to help but I have no experience in contributing to something like this.

Do we begin by outlining the subjects we want to include (hoggy made a good start) and then invite people to contribute? Lanx, are you willing to edit it?

Would it be part of the GeekHackWiki?

Offline Lanx

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1914
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 00:31:33 »
willing to get these hodgepodge ideas through, just throw out ideas, and we'll try to collectively sift through em.

Offline Lanx

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1914
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 00:53:16 »
one suggestion point or what i deem the "ergonomic posture oldskool mis-use" is that old skool ways of determining posture, just doesn't work or scale with technology.

I'll give an example of this that 99% of us are used to and do... driving.

now i don't want to get into the (i love to lean all the way bag and look cool...)

this is just stuff i've seen and picked up on.

The way to determine proper seat is to stretch out your arm, and your wrist should touch the top of the steering wheel, while almost being horizontal.

this combined  that your foot should touch the gas/brake pedal at a 90degree angle.

we can all sorta agree that, this seems to be good posture not only for ergonomics (some ppl drive hours) but for safety as well. This is finite... what i mean by this is that, your vision (windshield) will most likely never change, the car is mostly going to be a certain height from the road, the roads aren't going to be more narrow or wider in the next 20 years.

However, old ergonomic suggestions were made with old technology in mind.

It was made with the fact that desks, are just desks and usually just desks for writing papers, now we have desks that change elevation, have swing out arms for keyboard trays, and new styles of "stand up" and drafting.

i read a while ago that proper length from a monitor should be the distance between your out stretched-fisted hand... this might've worked for old 14in crt's in 1992...

i'm rocking 2 24in monitors, if i used that old way to measure, i'd have to move my head from left to right everytime i read a webpage, this is because technology changes our environment... unlike a car, a mustang from the 50's is relatively the same as the newest mustang, but a 1992 setup compared to a current gen setup is VASTLY different, ergonomics has NOT changed with the times.

i do NOT follow the ergonomic suggestion of sitting up straight, like you have a vertical stick up your a$$. and no i am not a hunchback of notre dame, i have to thank my mom for that, everytime i even thought of hunching forward, she'd smack my back and i'd be straight, in fact my spine is almost perfect (said my chiropractor, i don't use one, just to get bone scans). No instead i lean all the way back, and let technologically amazing mesh fabric cradle and keep my head straight, while also having the lumbar support to keep spine at a proper curvature and not feel pain. I could sit like this for literally a whole day straight, while doing the stick up my a$$ "ergonomic" position gave me enough pains to seek out those quacky chiropractors (they aren't real doctors).

i'd like discussions like these, what you've tried, what you've done, and how we can all use this information to cobble together some guidelines, again what works for some won't work for many or the opposite, cuz when my 6 1" friend comes over, he can't use my setup, hell i don't even let him sit in my chair! (it's rated at 250lbs!!! mesh fabric)

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14305
  • Rich Homie Huang.
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 01:01:37 »
I'm just going to float this out there before I actually contribute to this thread, the Wiki is probably going away and being replaced with something else. So don't get your hopes up that this will migrate to the Wiki.

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1496
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 02:54:38 »
Thanks for the heads up. I think that means we've got plenty of time to get the structure right.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Lanx

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1914
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 04:02:13 »
fyi i won't be active for a week, vacation in cancun.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 12900
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 05:30:45 »
If we realllly think about it...

the Ergonomic guide is really the same as "how to slave comfortably for 'the man. "


Offline thegunner100

  • Posts: 939
  • Location: NYC
  • (╯'□')╯︵</3 ノ( '-'ノ)
    • The Emotional Skyscraper
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 06:32:06 »
Thanks for taking the initiative to do this, Lanx.

One thing I'd like to to note is: How the **** do i stand in an ergonomically comfortable position? During the last day of my summer class, we went to the museum to present our papers and I had to stand around with minimal walking for about 3 hours. Needless to say, that wrecked my back for the entire day. I can't stand for long periods at all without my back hurting like crazy. I can walk for long periods of time, cause that's what I do for my job.
Input Devices:CM QF Rapidx2 ~ REALFORCE 87uw 45/55g ~ Logitech G5v2 ~ Wacom Bamboo CTH-460

Audio Setup: look me up on head-fi
Check out my blog on touhou/doujin music, audiophile gear, and doujin games!

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1496
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 06:44:45 »
You can try to shift your posture (including slouching) - a quick walk break might be suitable for you.  An anti-fatigue mat (I love mine) might help as well.  They tend to be too awkward to take to a museum though.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Posts: 982
  • "Losing the digital battle one digit at a time."
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 07:25:21 »
Thanks for taking the initiative to do this, Lanx.

One thing I'd like to to note is: How the **** do i stand in an ergonomically comfortable position? During the last day of my summer class, we went to the museum to present our papers and I had to stand around with minimal walking for about 3 hours. Needless to say, that wrecked my back for the entire day. I can't stand for long periods at all without my back hurting like crazy. I can walk for long periods of time, cause that's what I do for my job.

Your not alone.

I can work on my feet for 8-12 hours straight if I'm moving around but I get a sore back standing in one place for 15 minutes.  I think an adjustable height desk is a good idea, anything that allows for easy and frequent changes in posture/position sounds good. Also, standing at a station where you have an anchoring object like a desk is less fatiguing than just standing in the open, but it still not for me.




Offline kaltar

  • Posts: 138
  • Location: Miami, FL
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 31 August 2013, 22:46:24 »
I learned something about ergonomics by playing the piano. There are certain digitation techniques (correct way to use your fingers) that you will not understand until you want to do something that is near impossible to do otherwise. It took years and years for keyboards to develop these techniques.

In the computer era, we are using keyboards all day, but stay to conventional layouts used since the first typewriters. We haven't really upgraded our techniques because the equipment hasn't been upgraded, even when we add more keys. ALT, META, SUPER, etc are new keys for computer only, but we haven't updated the way to use them. Few keyboards use the thumbs for other than space bar. Im convinced that there should be another layer of keys, under the space bar, that should hold at least, another key for each thumb.

In computer keyboards, just as in Piano playing, using the fingering is the most important thing. However, there is no standard (yes for they main keys, but not for the modifiers. We will not have a correct ergo guide if we do not define the correct way to hit the keys.

In programming, people from the "vi" community will tell you that the best thing is to not move your fingers from the home row. Members of the "emacs" church, will say that you can press CTRL with your pinky or remap it to caps-lock. However, there is no standard on how to press the rest of they keys, and more important, if keyboards only have CTRL on the left side, how to press CTRL-a? the ergonomic rules define one key per hand, so combinations should be done with multiple keys. If so, how can we select text (Shift pressed, Arrow keys, and press ALT and CTRL -or command in apple- to move thru words or lines with selected text). the correct way to press multiple keys in an ergonomic way is arguably the most important thing for computer ergonomics.

Offline Lanx

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1914
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 02 September 2013, 16:50:29 »
let's start with computing posture:

imo there should be three to explore

1. standing

2. 90degree stick up ass

3. lean back

if there are more postures we should state them, experts in these fields please chime in.

i think we can all agree the hunchback of notre dame posture is wrong, yes?

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14305
  • Rich Homie Huang.
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 02 September 2013, 16:57:26 »
When I go to music festivals or concerts, I'll end up standing for hours on end. Good posture definitely helps but I find that I'll need to walk around a lot. If I just stand still for a long time, my feel and back will start to hurt. Try and vary up what you do.

Offline chill1217

  • Posts: 43
  • Location: United States
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 02 September 2013, 17:19:10 »

Offline kaltar

  • Posts: 138
  • Location: Miami, FL
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 05 September 2013, 01:14:40 »
From the docs in the post below:



This position hurst me (i'm in a middle of a RSI episode). Wrists should NOT be resting upward. always in a line to your arm.

Offline wiredPANDA

  • Posts: 348
  • Location: Louisiana
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 05 September 2013, 10:52:01 »
Agreed - I just recently switched back to using a keyboard tray at work.  Has to be at a negative tilt, though.  I'm running between -10% and -15% tilt on my tray and it feels, alright.  Would be better if I could cut part of this wrist rest that's mounted to TKL sizing; then I'd have room to use my mouse without my wrist being elevated.
| HHKB Pro 2 | Leopold FC660C
| Poker.PANDAclears | ErgoDox (62g Black)

Offline Lanx

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1914
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 05 September 2013, 11:38:39 »
topic has moved to wrist rests:

i believe we at the ergo community believe that wrist rests are FINE, just wrongly named, instead they should be renamed to palm wrests, you have to make a mental note to rest you PALMS on the rest and not the wrists.

look at it this way, the most basic workout is a pushup, with your palms, no one has issue doing this, the palms can support body weight just fine, however if you try to do a push with your wrists (somehow) you'll probably end up snapping the bones.

i believe we can classify this as ergonomic aids.

Offline Larken

  • Posts: 623
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 05 September 2013, 13:10:48 »
topic has moved to wrist rests:

i believe we at the ergo community believe that wrist rests are FINE, just wrongly named, instead they should be renamed to palm wrests, you have to make a mental note to rest you PALMS on the rest and not the wrists.

look at it this way, the most basic workout is a pushup, with your palms, no one has issue doing this, the palms can support body weight just fine, however if you try to do a push with your wrists (somehow) you'll probably end up snapping the bones.

i believe we can classify this as ergonomic aids.

I'll like to chime in here that resting your palms on the rest WHILE typing is not okay. My personal experience (I have had a bad habit of resting my palms on a rest while typing for years) - is that pain/discomfort tends to set in sooner or later if you do this instead of hovering your hands while typing. It could take years for it to happen, but it does - even while using split keyboards like the ergodox. (I've since got rid of the habit by adjusting the armrests on my chair to provide support for my arms while typing (resting on your elbows is also a no no) - in the last month or so, in fact - and the pain symptoms has totally gone away.)

| Ergodox #1 | Ergodox #2 |


Filco Majestouch Brown | Ducky 1087 Brown | Cherry G80-3494 Reds | Unicomp Ultra Classics | Cherry G80-8113 Clears |

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1496
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 05 September 2013, 14:57:12 »
Nice result!  It goes to show that small changes can make all the difference.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline kaltar

  • Posts: 138
  • Location: Miami, FL
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 05 September 2013, 17:05:22 »
Ok, I went to my doctor a few hours ago and got "dry needles - trigger points treatment" (needles in my arm and in my palm. I'm in so much pain!) and got a lecture on HOW to type. so I'm passing of the hints *That many already knows* 

1) never type stressed. It affects a lot being stressed in your shoulders while typing. You need to be straight AND relaxed.
2) DO NOT put your wrists on a pad. Most of them are incorrectly designed, and while they are designed for the PALMS, people use them for the wrist. That is a very bad issue, since it cuts the blood circulation and it also puts stress on it.
3) NEVER type with your wrists down. It makes you twist your muscles and leads to RSI.
4) Use a chair with arm rests that are AT THE LEVEL of your typing posture (90 degrees). Most chairs have the arm rest too low.
5) Palm inclination should be always down, never up. (the idea is that we relax the muscles).
6) Do not use cherry switches! (Nah, just kidding).

As a note, I've been typing all my life and my first RSI symptoms came from Apple's magic mouse, go figure! But many people have already twisted nerves all over but they do not get bothered... one day it can be just too much and... well, hard to get rid of it.

Offline ChThoniC

  • Posts: 26
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 14:03:42 »
The Magic Mouse also gave me my first RSI symptoms, almost two years ago... What a terrible piece of trash, just thinking about scrolling on it makes me cringe.

Offline vivalarevolución

  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: Naptown, Indiana, USA
  • Keep it real b/c any other way is too stressful
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 07 September 2013, 11:56:59 »
When I go to music festivals or concerts, I'll end up standing for hours on end. Good posture definitely helps but I find that I'll need to walk around a lot. If I just stand still for a long time, my feel and back will start to hurt. Try and vary up what you do.

Yea you have to switch it up when you are standing for a long time.  That's why I recommend a tall chair with a standing workstation.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline kaltar

  • Posts: 138
  • Location: Miami, FL
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 10 September 2013, 01:19:49 »
I agree with the palm rests: they should NOT be used. Funny fact: Kinesis manual says that its ok (with other wordings) to rests your palms while typing to avoid tensing your arms and shoulders. I've been having a lot of problem typing without tensing my shoulders and not using palm rests. Right now is the first time that i can do it, and is with the keyboard so close to me that if I had a large belly, it would be impossible! Just think, forearm 90 degree angle from your arm AND your arm parallel to your straight torso, so your arms end up not that far of your body! If you have a big belly, you will need  a split keyboard to be ergonomic.

For those that wanted to buy an ergodox and wanted an excuse: start eating!  :p

Offline Lanx

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1914
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 11 September 2013, 21:38:33 »
First write up

Head position:

(my opinions, experiences, add at will)

This takes into account that you have a modern computer setup, that means a widescreen LCD, this will take into account new technology.

A "good" way to measure comfortable screen distance is to put two pieces of paper or use your extended hand and block your peripheral vision and look at your monitor, if you can still see the entire horizontal span of your monitor then you should be good, otherwise backup a bit if you are "clipping" off some of the screen. this is also an easy way to "center" your vision onto the screen.

*note*
this is meant to figure out good relative distance from the monitor (as in sit too close theory) if you want to move further back, go ahead as much as you want.

multimonitor configuration setups:
while it is user preference to fit extra monitors anywhere you deem suitable, recommended panel technology is what will be offered. Monitors that have TN panels should be avoided, as the image will be faded and difficult to read where the TN technology has very poor viewing angles. Invest in IPS or VA panels, as of 2013 these panels are very competitive with TN panels (probably 30% more for about the same screen size/performance etc) as these new technologies has far greater viewing angles.

*note*
the recommended technology is for monitors that will generally be used as side or top/bottom monitors as these will usually be tilted at an angle for the easier viewing, with IPS/VA technology using an extreme angle for easier viewing could also be avoided. Your main monitor could be TN technology as that is a more direct view.

Offline kaltar

  • Posts: 138
  • Location: Miami, FL
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 12 September 2013, 00:12:16 »
some other things:
1) both feet should be touching ground.
2) If you have a lesion of some sort, be sure it's healed before doing something that may make it worse, unless your doctor approves it
3) Try to be relaxed. when we type or work tense, we damage things.

Since I'm typing with CTS, I can say Im kinda breaking comment #2. However, cannot wait months until it clears up.

Offline jroes

  • Posts: 6
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 12:46:23 »
I love this idea.

What's the best place to organize this since the Wiki is going away?

Offline Lanx

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1914
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 16:02:50 »
just lots of posts and someone (me and/or others) will do some editing.

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1496
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 07:32:54 »
I'm thinking of creating a Locked thread that just contains links to some of our better ergo related threads.  We could keep the discussion to this thread - and keep the other clean.

I'm thinking that this is will keep the number of stickies down, but keep most of the benefits.

Any thoughts?  Any ideas for categories (keyboards, specific keyboards, mice, layouts, desks ...)?

If someone has a better title, that would really help.
« Last Edit: Tue, 11 February 2014, 11:32:50 by hoggy »
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Gid

  • Posts: 25
  • ... morning already?
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 08:35:00 »
Good idea!  Calling it the "links thread" seems to imply off-site linkage, though.  If the topic's only going to feature GH threads, you may want to call it "Useful Threads" or something to that effect.

... Am I the only one seeing two stickies, though?  I wouldn't lose too much sleep over consolidating that.  :)

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14305
  • Rich Homie Huang.
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 08:55:39 »
What about: "GH Ergonomics Guide" and sticky that locked thread?

I think keyboards, mice/trackballs, desk/setup, and layouts would be great categories.

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1496
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 11:41:28 »
CPTBadAss - good suggestion - let's go with that.

Gid,
The idea is to create a 'table of contents'.  We'll leave the threads it links to alone.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14305
  • Rich Homie Huang.
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 11:45:54 »
A great first link could be: Why should I look into ergonomics?

And if you look at the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread, I have a Table of Contents in BBCode setup so you don't have to work too hard.

Offline Lanx

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1914
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 16:05:33 »
well if you're a mod now, it could take off, i tried this thread last year, but participation fell off.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47797.0

Offline vivalarevolución

  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: Naptown, Indiana, USA
  • Keep it real b/c any other way is too stressful
Re: GH Ergo Community 2013+ Suggested Ergonomic Practices
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 18:00:15 »
I am in support of such an idea.  It could become one of the go-to sources for computer ergonomic devices on the web.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1496
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: GH Ergo Community + Suggested Ergonomic Practices + GH Ergonomics Guide
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 12 February 2014, 00:31:16 »
Lanx, I totally forgot about that thread.  I've merged it with this one and stickied it for now.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1496
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: GH Ergo Community + Suggested Ergonomic Practices + GH Ergonomics Guide
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 12 February 2014, 00:55:04 »
A great first link could be: Why should I look into ergonomics?

And if you look at the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread, I have a Table of Contents in BBCode setup so you don't have to work too hard.
Thanks - I've borrowed your Table of Contents formatting.  You've saved me a bunch of work there.

I've put in a few headers and a link (not set in stone) - just an 'artist's impression' of what it would look like.

GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1496
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: GH Ergo Community + Suggested Ergonomic Practices + GH Ergonomics Guide
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 12 February 2014, 06:54:11 »
Any suggestions for a top 10 (ish) list of ergonomic keyboards?
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Lanx

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1914
Re: GH Ergo Community + Suggested Ergonomic Practices + GH Ergonomics Guide
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 12 February 2014, 07:50:58 »
i don't think a top 10 ish list for ergo keyboards is really feasible, more like a sliding scale, (off the top of my head, not difficult to obtain) or tiers

top tier (1) - kinesis/maltron/ergodox
middle tier (2) - truly ergonomic/microsoft ergo 4k/goldtouch/kinesis freedom
bottom tier (3) - basic split keyboard/basic mechnical TKL

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14305
  • Rich Homie Huang.
Re: GH Ergo Community + Suggested Ergonomic Practices + GH Ergonomics Guide
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 12 February 2014, 08:01:08 »
I've never owned any of the mechanical ergonomic board but from everything I've read, I would agree with Lanx's top tier.

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1496
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: GH Ergo Community + Suggested Ergonomic Practices + GH Ergonomics Guide
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 12 February 2014, 08:10:00 »
Sorry, I meant in terms of popularity, but your list looks pretty good.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14305
  • Rich Homie Huang.
Re: GH Ergo Community + Suggested Ergonomic Practices + GH Ergonomics Guide
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 12 February 2014, 08:30:11 »
In the keyboards section of the guide, maybe there can be a section talking about different layouts? For example, QWERTY vs DVORAK vs Maltron. I feel like the layouts of the keys helps to drive the decision making process when picking up an ergonomic keyboard.

I like the breakdown in the mice section.

I don't think the Chair section needs to be broken down more.

In the desk section, another category could be custom? I know there are a few articles floating around where people have attached keyboards to their chair arms.

Edit: I think this standing desk discussion is pretty cool.
« Last Edit: Wed, 12 February 2014, 14:55:35 by CPTBadAss »

Offline Lanx

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1914
Re: GH Ergo Community + Suggested Ergonomic Practices + GH Ergonomics Guide
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 12 February 2014, 17:25:53 »
Misc
Wristrests

(Always open to suggestions for sub categories)

i believe footrests should go here as well.

i think we should have a

GH misnomer section:

common term:
wristrest
suggested GH Correct term:
palmrest-(palmrest is the preferred term to use for this ergonomic aid, it is misused in that we rest our wrists on these ergonomic aids, when GH believes this to cause more harm than good, however, resting the PALMS on the ergonomic aid is suggested instead)

(and other etc)

Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: GH Ergo Community + Suggested Ergonomic Practices + GH Ergonomics Guide
« Reply #47 on: Thu, 13 February 2014, 05:38:43 »
I'd mention keyboard switches.

problems with finger joints ⇒ mechanism that doesn't require bottoming out, or dampeners for soft bottoming out
fatigue: heavy hands ⇒ medium/stiff switches
fatigue: fingers unable to build muscles ⇒ light switches
fatigue: otherwise ⇒ medium switches (note: some authors suggest that RSI has been more common since conversion from typewriters to computer keyboards, because typists lack strength in their fingers)
tactility or auditory feedback improve comfort/accuracy for some typists

Also, some notion of exercises, proper lighting, keyboard replacements (speech recognition, chorded keyboards, autocomplete, eye/gesture tracking) or software (for taking breaks, Redshift/f.lux etc.) would be nice.

Offline vivalarevolución

  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: Naptown, Indiana, USA
  • Keep it real b/c any other way is too stressful
Re: GH Ergo Community + Suggested Ergonomic Practices + GH Ergonomics Guide
« Reply #48 on: Thu, 13 February 2014, 11:36:18 »
i don't think a top 10 ish list for ergo keyboards is really feasible, more like a sliding scale, (off the top of my head, not difficult to obtain) or tiers

top tier (1) - kinesis/maltron/ergodox
middle tier (2) - truly ergonomic/microsoft ergo 4k/goldtouch/kinesis freedom
bottom tier (3) - basic split keyboard/basic mechnical TKL

That's the Kinesis Freestyle, by the way.

I would not put Microsoft Ergo in the same class as Goldtouch and Truly Ergonomic and Kinesis Freestyle.  It's a class below, in my view.

I suggest adding the microTron keyboard to the top tier.  It's split, Topre, has thumb keys, and the layout is innovative.  While not having straight columns, the staggering is symmetrical on both sides.  Also, the firmware has built-in support for DVORAK.  To lump that with a simple split keyboard like Goldtouch would be an insult to the microTron designers, in my view.

----------------------------------------------------

Also, I suggest a list for extinct models, like the IBM M15, Datahand, and Kinesis Evolution.  Finding out about all these models would be a bit of a challenge. 
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline vivalarevolución

  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: Naptown, Indiana, USA
  • Keep it real b/c any other way is too stressful
Re: GH Ergo Community + Suggested Ergonomic Practices + GH Ergonomics Guide
« Reply #49 on: Thu, 13 February 2014, 13:01:29 »
i don't think a top 10 ish list for ergo keyboards is really feasible, more like a sliding scale, (off the top of my head, not difficult to obtain) or tiers

top tier (1) - kinesis/maltron/ergodox
middle tier (2) - truly ergonomic/microsoft ergo 4k/goldtouch/kinesis freedom
bottom tier (3) - basic split keyboard/basic mechnical TKL

That's the Kinesis Freestyle, by the way.

I would not put Microsoft Ergo in the same class as Goldtouch and Truly Ergonomic and Kinesis Freestyle.  It's a class below, in my view.

I suggest adding the microTron keyboard to the top tier.  It's split, Topre, has thumb keys, and the layout is innovative.  While not having straight columns, the staggering is symmetrical on both sides.  Also, the firmware has built-in support for DVORAK.  To lump that with a simple split keyboard like Goldtouch would be an insult to the microTron designers, in my view.

----------------------------------------------------

Also, I suggest a list for extinct models, like the IBM M15, Datahand, and Kinesis Evolution.  Finding out about all these models would be a bit of a challenge.


Oh, and do not forget the Matias Ergo Pro, which will soon be the only split mechanical keyboard on the market.  I would put that in the middle tier.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing