Author Topic: howto improve writing skills (wpm)  (Read 2894 times)

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Offline mapple

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howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 05:56:40 »
hey guys as in topic. I'm trying to play sometimes games like typer of sth but my top score is like ~102(5) wpm (at cherry blue others are always lower). how did you managed to get scores above that? I can imagine that everyone has a limitations, maybe that's mine, but before i'll accept this state I wanna fight.
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Offline badcop

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 06:11:34 »
hey guys as in topic. I'm trying to play sometimes games like typer of sth but my top score is like ~102(5) wpm (at cherry blue others are always lower). how did you managed to get scores above that? I can imagine that everyone has a limitations, maybe that's mine, but before i'll accept this state I wanna fight.

do you use the standard touch typing technique?  its not necesarly the best...i'm just curious.  i was hovering around 80 wpm on cherry blues and then picked up my first thorpe and i ended up hitting ~100+ on typeracer pretty consistently within the first day.
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Offline mapple

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 07:49:22 »
well i don't know if i understand concept corretly but i'm typing without checking keys and yes fingers lay down from f to left and from j to right.
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Offline phx

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 08:10:46 »
yeah if you have ~100 WPM you gotta be touch typing.
as with anything, only way to improve is through practice. I also type at ~100WPM, it's fine for me, I don't like type out full length essays all the time or anything.

Offline ynrozturk

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 11:01:11 »
For me it's been a bit weird. Right now I am at around 90 WPM, which is pretty meh, but the reason for that is I'd been trying out different/key combinations a lot, so I may have gotten mixed up a bit. Right now I am sticking to one that I like - the standard 10 finger typing, minus the pinky on the right hand. Seems to be working okay. Now I just need to get this up to speed.
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Offline davkol

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 15:44:55 »
I don't think speed matters once you get past 90 wpm and can comfortably maintain 60+ wpm during longer typing session. That being said, I used to extremelly slow (55 wpm at best, usually about 40 wpm), but then I switched to Colemak and then symmetric layout as well, which made it possible for me to hit ~70 wpm... and I lost interest in faster typing. I feel like effective apm in e.g. text editor matters a bit more.
« Last Edit: Fri, 13 September 2013, 15:46:45 by davkol »

Offline divito

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 15:51:25 »
Utilizing more fingers gives you the greatest chance to increase the rate at which you type. This is part of the reason why the "home row" typing style was developed. That's not to say that other styles can't be similarly or equally as fast, or that it's the best style, but that's generally the gist of it. My style is so strange and hybrid, that my limit seems to be capped at around 120wpm. Changing ones style is a very tall task, especially depending on how long that person has been using that style.
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Offline Glenn315

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 15:53:49 »
I literally just try and focus on accuracy.

Offline ynrozturk

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 18:06:30 »
Utilizing more fingers gives you the greatest chance to increase the rate at which you type. This is part of the reason why the "home row" typing style was developed. That's not to say that other styles can't be similarly or equally as fast, or that it's the best style, but that's generally the gist of it. My style is so strange and hybrid, that my limit seems to be capped at around 120wpm. Changing ones style is a very tall task, especially depending on how long that person has been using that style.

Very true. Over the course of the last 9 months, I've switched styles 3 times. I'm on my third now and I plan on sticking with it, as it's the most comfortable, while still maintaining solid use of 9 fingers, which works for me best.
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Offline Fragil1ty

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 19:03:46 »
I think improving typing or touch typing to be more specific is all about how much time you're willing to invest.

Me personally, I've had Blacks, Blues and Reds.

Blues - I had a Razer BlackWidow and I got aquainted to that Keyboard in a somewhat fast manner, the max typing test I got over on 10fastfingers was 125-135WPM.

Reds - I had a Noppoo Choc Mini and this took me a fair amount of time to get used to, because of how light the keys are, sadly this is not the keyboard that I can type the best on, but it's the one that I enjoy typing on the most, I think it's a better fit overall for me but the best I got on reds was around 95-110WPM. (dem mistakes).

Blacks - For this I have and I'm currently still using the Keycool 84, now while this keyboard is very nice, I cannot get used to the blacks my WPM has not been over 105/110, which is a bit of a disappointment as my friends who I have advised keyboards too rave over Blacks and how they like them etc, etc, maybe it's this keyboard, but I'm 100% sure it's the switch.

I think to improve you need have better positioning of your keyboard, maybe invest in a wristrest, (I've got the Grifiti 12" wristrest) and just practice, practice, practice. Find the right switch for you and then just stick with that's what I should of done in all fairness, but problems arose with my Noppoo and has forced me to switch to Blacks with the Keycool 84, but hopefully this issue will be sorted when my new Keycool arrives from qTan in a few weeks. :)



Just got this on blacks just now, I made a few mistakes and had a slow start, but It's all about practice, I want to maintain a consistent 115-130 and then I'll be happy.
« Last Edit: Fri, 13 September 2013, 19:06:20 by Fragil1ty »
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Offline abdulmuhsee

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 20:12:35 »
hey guys as in topic. I'm trying to play sometimes games like typer of sth but my top score is like ~102(5) wpm...

People are breaking 100 WPM and speaking as if they're slowpokes...

What is "typer of sth"?

Offline ynrozturk

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 13 September 2013, 21:21:36 »
I'm stuck at 86. Not 85, not 87, but 86. lol
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 09 December 2013, 07:55:39 »
Anybody got any tips on how to type slower? I don't want to wear out my keyboards too fast.

Offline yasuo

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 09 December 2013, 07:58:15 »
Anybody got any tips on how to type slower? I don't want to wear out my keyboards too fast.
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Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 09 December 2013, 08:04:12 »
Anybody got any tips on how to type slower? I don't want to wear out my keyboards too fast.

Tip 1: Tape all your fingers together, limits finger mobility.
Tip 2: If Tip 1 isn't feasible, then type with your feet.

#sarcasm
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 09 December 2013, 08:08:51 »
Anybody got any tips on how to type slower? I don't want to wear out my keyboards too fast.

Tip 1: Tape all your fingers together, limits finger mobility.
Tip 2: If Tip 1 isn't feasible, then type with your feet.

#sarcasm

I should try typing with my toes...they are fairly long. I could probably get at least 1 wph

Offline Tony

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 09 December 2013, 08:20:25 »
If training can improve speed indefinitely, Sean Wrona would type at 500wpm by now.
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Offline Annas

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 09 December 2013, 08:53:49 »
Anybody got any tips on how to type slower? I don't want to wear out my keyboards too fast.

Hammer your index finger

Offline Annas

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 09 December 2013, 08:54:56 »
If training can improve speed indefinitely, Sean Wrona would type at 500wpm by now.

Physically not possible  ;D

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 09 December 2013, 08:56:39 »
Anybody got any tips on how to type slower? I don't want to wear out my keyboards too fast.

Hammer your index finger

Good answer... good answer...
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Offline Cory56

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 27 October 2020, 17:04:06 »
What special can you do. Practice all the time - if we're talking about speed.

Offline Polymer

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 04 November 2020, 10:38:01 »
hey guys as in topic. I'm trying to play sometimes games like typer of sth but my top score is like ~102(5) wpm (at cherry blue others are always lower). how did you managed to get scores above that? I can imagine that everyone has a limitations, maybe that's mine, but before i'll accept this state I wanna fight.

At 100wpm with QWERTY you can improve with just more practice.  I haven't played that game but improving how far ahead you can look or how you're processing the words before you start typing can really help. 

When you want to get into the 120+ range, it is still possible with QWERTY but I think most people would be better off looking at alternative layouts that are more efficient...You'll still need to work on how you're processing the words coming in but it'll help lower the number of awkward words you need to type and your hands will be a lot more efficient...


Offline tacomn

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 04 November 2020, 13:19:53 »
Well hardly any one in the top typist use other layouts like colemak or dovorak. Almost all of them including the very top typist use qwerty. I will say that the top 2 chak and sean wrona while they use qwerty they both do not use traditional home row. Sean is a big vocal proponent against home row.

Offline Polymer

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 04 November 2020, 15:00:37 »
I wouldn't use any of the top examples as showing what you should do...Wrona has his own style that I would definitely not teach someone to replicate it.

QWERTY is just not as efficient....you only have to look at two typists side by side and on one side you see fingers flying up down, left right...on the other, their fingers barely leave the home row.  It is very obvious which is more efficient and requires less movement which means in the long run, you'll be faster.

Of course, dedicating time to an alternative layout isn't easy..and switching back and forth isn't easy.....and of course if you don't have the reps on it, you won't get any better...

There are plenty of studies that talk whether it makes sense to move to an alternate layout..but those studies are flawed.  You only really have to look at the basics of it.

Does anyone believe QWERTY is the most efficient layout?  We know it isn't.  And if you go to snap your fingers and change all layouts for everyone at one time, would we choose QWERTY?  No...

That doesn't mean you can't get really fast with QWERTY..that doesn't guarantee you will be faster with dvorak...but the reasons for that are not as a result of the layout itself.

Offline tacomn

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 06 November 2020, 02:12:05 »
Well out of the the top 34 typist only 3 use non qwerty and of that 3, only one uses dvorak. He is the fastest typist in the world with dvorak, and he ranks top 23rd fastest typist.

Even he says that you should not switch to dvorak from qwerty in the pursuit of getting faster. He says you will be faster if you use qwerty. Her is a vid on his thoughts on dvorak

« Last Edit: Fri, 06 November 2020, 21:20:16 by tacomn »

Offline Polymer

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 07 November 2020, 00:04:46 »
Well out of the the top 34 typist only 3 use non qwerty and of that 3, only one uses dvorak. He is the fastest typist in the world with dvorak, and he ranks top 23rd fastest typist.

Even he says that you should not switch to dvorak from qwerty in the pursuit of getting faster. He says you will be faster if you use qwerty. Her is a vid on his thoughts on dvorak


Is this what you consider proof?  He's even said it..the problem is learning a new layout will take a long time...and a lot of practice...to get that same level of muscle memory as you do with QWERTY.  You will need to suffer for quite awhile until you even get somewhat efficient...

You also have to live in a QWERTY world which means you not only have to learn a new layout, but you have to remember the old one as well....which is mentioned over and over again when it comes to people wanting to learn a new layout. 

All of those are reasons not to change...but if you are dedicated to getting faster and want to use a layout that can get you there with enough dedication, alternative layouts are factually just more efficient...less movement means saved time, which means faster typing. 

Here's another way of looking at it...What types of words do you type the fastest?  And which are the ones are you slower on?  Generally they will have to do with where the letters are placed and how your fingers have to move around to type them quickly.  Now imagine you have two sets of words...one is made up of all the words you type the fastest...and one is made up of words you type the slowest...Which set are you going to type faster?

Offline nathanchere

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 07 November 2020, 03:20:43 »
Anybody got any tips on how to type slower? I don't want to wear out my keyboards too fast.

Get an ergodox

Offline diazel

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 07 November 2020, 07:15:57 »
Show Image


Just got this on blacks just now, I made a few mistakes and had a slow start, but It's all about practice, I want to maintain a consistent 115-130 and then I'll be happy.

Okay, if I had been drinking my coffee when I read through that test result, I probably would've sprayed my monitor. I often say lol in talking with friends and whatnot but that legitimately made me gol (guffaw out loud). Nicely done.

Offline diazel

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 07 November 2020, 07:30:59 »
hey guys as in topic. I'm trying to play sometimes games like typer of sth but my top score is like ~102(5) wpm (at cherry blue others are always lower). how did you managed to get scores above that? I can imagine that everyone has a limitations, maybe that's mine, but before i'll accept this state I wanna fight.

When I first started doing the same, I hovered around 75-80 wpm. I also touchtype and after getting into keyboards, I no longer considered that fast enough. And yeah, it's 100% practice. I just recently hit my PR of 127wpm for 30 second test after maybe 6 months of really focusing on getting better/faster.

I'm going to mention this before mentioning my tips below because it's been the biggest reason for my improvements recently.
Monkey-type.com

Some tips in scoring higher on tests:
  • Look ahead. If you are focusing only on the word you're typing or the word directly before, you'll be heavily handicapped how fast you can go because of the time it takes for your brain to recognize the new word and prepare to type it (monkey-type has an option where it will literally blank out the next two words on the test as you go to help you train to look ahead
  • Practice the words you miss most often. monkey-type has the ability to go back and look at words you got wrong and then you can put together another practice test with all of those words
  • Work on accuracy. I get higher wpm the more accurate I am. I know that seems obvious but if my raw typing speed is 150 wpm and I'm getting a quarter of the letters/words wrong, it'll drop it down to 100 or less. When I start having a lot of typos, I'll reset and try to type slower and I'll often end up getting a higher score
  • Work on accuracy. If you have a tendency to backspace a lot during tests, this will cripple your scores. I try to keep my backspacing down to only a handful of words during the test.
  • Float on the keyboard. If you're the type to press really hard when typing, especially when trying to type fast, this might hurt your speed. Your cherry mx blue has actuation point of 2mm and bottom out of 4mm. If you start gradually lightening up your touch such that you can activate the switch without bottoming out, it could make you faster. This is the premise behind the Cherry MX speed silvers where the actuation point is I think 1.2mm with a shorter stroke to bottom out. The less you have to move, the faster you can get to the next word
  • Address posture/ergonomic issues. When I type normally, I hunch over my desk with my arms and all resting on the surface more than I'd like to admit. When I'm trying to type as quickly as possible, I sit up straight, lower my desk height (or you could raise your chair) to get as close to a 90 degree in my elbows as possible and keep my wrists flat and make sure the angle of the keyboard suits you. (I can type much faster on a Model M122 on its tallest legs than I can on a board flat on the desk surface. Everyone will have their own preference for angle, just gotta find the one that suits you the best

Hope this helps and we look forward to seeing your improvements!

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 07 November 2020, 07:45:18 »
Anybody got any tips on how to type slower? I don't want to wear out my keyboards too fast.

Get an ergodox

Or just get 1 half of the ergodox, then put all 26 letter keys into their own layers.

Offline diazel

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 07 November 2020, 07:54:21 »
Anybody got any tips on how to type slower? I don't want to wear out my keyboards too fast.

Get an ergodox

Or just get 1 half of the ergodox, then put all 26 letter keys into their own layers.

I see your bet and I raise you, build a keyboard out of something like the Wazowski PCB. The ultimate in utilizing layers!

Offline Polymer

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 08 November 2020, 11:43:37 »
  • Float on the keyboard. If you're the type to press really hard when typing, especially when trying to type fast, this might hurt your speed. Your cherry mx blue has actuation point of 2mm and bottom out of 4mm. If you start gradually lightening up your touch such that you can activate the switch without bottoming out, it could make you faster. This is the premise behind the Cherry MX speed silvers where the actuation point is I think 1.2mm with a shorter stroke to bottom out. The less you have to move, the faster you can get to the next word

Agreed with what you said except this part is BS.

Lightly touching bottom is fine...do what you need to do to type the fastest..

Not bottoming out means you're going slower than you can.  This is a complete myth.

I have yet to see anyone not bottom out and type fast..as in 120+WPM....I'm not talking some bottom/some not and lightly touching bottom...I'm talking about not bottoming out a vast majority of the strokes...it isn't happening, by anyone, with good speed.  This is the absolute worst advice I'd give anyone if they're looking for speed...fast quick strokes is fine...not bottoming out is a complete wasted effort and counter to your ability to go fast.

Offline diazel

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 08 November 2020, 16:21:48 »
FWIW, when I'm on my holy pandas, the tactile bump is high enough that I only press to hit the bump, not to hit bottom. My PR just hit 122 with me typing on HP without bottoming out at 118.

The idea that you think you have to do it without bottoming out was not my intent. I clearly state that for the MX speed, it has a shorter distance to bottom out which means less travel which means faster. I am clearly suggesting that you would be bottoming out when typing on them.

Also, what about those that progressive or high force springs? Haven't people put progressive springs in that requires more force as you push so they don't bottom out? Or just generally typing on >100gf springs at very high rates of speed because they're just tapping it.

I get the premise of your argument but I think your explanation falls short.

Offline Polymer

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 10 November 2020, 14:20:01 »
If you have a high enough bump or strong enough spring to completely resist people's attempts to bottom out, technically you're not bottoming out..but effectively you are.  What is really the difference between hitting bottom that doesn't move and hitting bottom where your force would normally bottom out (if the resistance wasn't so high) but the resistance is higher enough to prevent it?  Not a whole lot.  I actually used to add this to my posts but it is really the same thing and that should've been self explanatory..

Here's another example..you put in o-rings to prevent the switch from bottoming out...lets say very thick o-rings..so much so that it impacts travel.  Are you bottoming out when it stops because the o-ring prevents you from hitting bottom?  Given we've gone as far as saying it has impacted travel means yes, we have. 

The point in saying not to bottom out is people type in a style to actually hold themselves back from bottoming out which means you're holding back speed. 
I've also found that people saying they're not bottoming out, are when pressed to show a video of typing quickly without it...Holy Pandas I don't believe have enough resistance at the back end so honestly, I don't believe you're at 118 without bottoming out.  Easy enough, prove me wrong. 



Offline diazel

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 10 November 2020, 17:06:55 »
It's worth noting that we're still arguing two different things.

First of all, let's address the notion of bottoming out being wherever you define it to be. Your argument is there's no difference between hitting the bottom that doesn't move and the bottom where your force would normally bottom out. Except there is. There's more force needed to hit bottom than to hit halfway. That's typically how springs work. The more you compress a spring, the more force required to compress the spring. If you're bottoming out vs not bottoming out, that's not the same amount of force being applied. This is pretty obvious for linear switches but gets more complicated with tactical switches based on the severity of the tactile bump. Unavoidable on a buckling spring. Typically for an mx style switch though, after the bump there's additional force that would need to be applied to hit the bottom. Admittedly, on the HP graph, the top of the bump is roughly the same as the bottom of the switch which would lend itself to your notion that it's the same thing. Not the case across the board. There's no sense arguing this point. We can google the force graphs for each switch and see the data instead of arguing opinions. Want a clear example of my argument? Look at the Cherry MX clear force graph. Far steeper than that of a brown.

I will say that when you add o-rings I will agree you are effectively changing the bottom out location. But they are still acting as springs though. If you press hard enough, the switch can still hit bottom once the o-ring deforms enough. Personally, crushing the key to the bottom or wherever it will let me go doesn't make me any faster. If that's not the case for you, it's not the case for you. Who am I to argue? I don't know how you type. If you're henpecking vs touch typing, I don't have a leg to stand on. If you're touch typing, maybe I do.

And I also explained in my previous post that you have to type without bottoming out wasn't my intent. But the distance traveled to bottom matters. If you type equally fast on a switch with 4mm to bottom out and 2mm to bottom out, that's additional 2mm each finger needs to travel. My suggestion is it's not necessary to press the key all the way to the bottom to register a keystroke. If we have equally fast race cars and I have to travel half the distance to the finish line, I win.

Analogy: If we have equally fast racecars and I have to travel half the distance you do, I win. Also speed and power are often tradeoffs. A heavyweight boxer is not as fast as a welterweight but has much more powerful strikes, do you agree?

Maybe my analogy doesn't hold up when it comes to typing. Hell, if you search on GH there's a thread back in 2011 where they're discussing bottoming out vs not bottoming out where there are people agreeing with me but also people saying if it happens it happens, doesn't matter. Same on Deskthority. Same on Reddit. Sounds like the jury is out so at best and we're arguing opinions and personal preference.

Math: F = -kx where k is the spring constant, x is the travel distance, and F = force. Assuming a linear spring constant (haven't a clue what the spring profile is for mx style switches), if x = 2mm vs 4mm, twice the force would be required to depress it that distance so F (me) vs 2F (you), right? Since F=ma, assuming the finger, switch, or keycap don't change in mass, this would tell us with twice the force applied to the same mass, you'll have twice the acceleration. s=Vi(t)+1/2(a)t^2; your distance of 4mm is twice 2mm so for you it would be s(me) = 1/2 s(you). S=0+1/2(a)t^2 (for me), 2S=0+1/2(1/2a)t^2 (for you). Let's hold a constant and modify it by saying (1/2)a. So for you it would be 2s=1/2(1/2a)t^2 --> 2s = 1/4at^2 --> 8s/a = t^2; t=(8s/a)^.5 (for you) and s=1/2(a)t^2 (for me) so 2s=at^2 --> 2s/a=t^2; t=(2s/a)^.5. Can we agree that (8s/a)^.5 > (2s/a)^.5? So t(you)>t(me).

I'm many years out of school and this is extremely simplified math (assuming a horse is a sphere to make the math easier), but the principle is there. There's a lot of gaps in my math here in terms of factors such as resistance, the fact that once you depress the key, force is still required to retract your finger, aerodynamics, chemistry (C8H10N4O2 levels, eg), how well you slept, shoe size, how long it's been since you at Chipotle...you know the drill. Honestly, I was going to omit the math but after taking the time to remember, I'm leaving it, haha. I will be happy to revise if anyone wants to add or correct.

tl;dr - Bottoming out doesn't make me faster and I feel like it can be quantified even if I can't qualify it. If someone else finds bottoming out to be faster based on their typing style, then that's faster for them. At the end of the day, OP has two differing opinions and they can try them both out and see what works better for them. And maybe we can offer differing opinions without calling someone else's argument BS because it doesn't apply to them even though there's multiple threads on here, DT, and Reddit that have people on either side of the aisle.


I'm sure once I get around to videoing and uploading there will be plenty of criticisms of my argument because you made me question myself so I gave it a shot and hit 112 while only bottoming out space bar and backspace regularly with the occasional double letter getting a bottom as well. Perhaps we should both upload a video so we can critique each other's typing styles too?

Offline Polymer

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 11 November 2020, 01:43:32 »
It's worth noting that we're still arguing two different things.

First of all, let's address the notion of bottoming out being wherever you define it to be. Your argument is there's no difference between hitting the bottom that doesn't move and the bottom where your force would normally bottom out. Except there is. There's more force needed to hit bottom than to hit halfway. That's typically how springs work. The more you compress a spring, the more force required to compress the spring. If you're bottoming out vs not bottoming out, that's not the same amount of force being applied. This is pretty obvious for linear switches but gets more complicated with tactical switches based on the severity of the tactile bump. Unavoidable on a buckling spring. Typically for an mx style switch though, after the bump there's additional force that would need to be applied to hit the bottom. Admittedly, on the HP graph, the top of the bump is roughly the same as the bottom of the switch which would lend itself to your notion that it's the same thing. Not the case across the board. There's no sense arguing this point. We can google the force graphs for each switch and see the data instead of arguing opinions. Want a clear example of my argument? Look at the Cherry MX clear force graph. Far steeper than that of a brown.
I actually said there is technically a difference but realistically NOT a difference.  And what I mean by that is, your fingers are going as fast as they can for your style of typing with a certain amount of force..that force will vary by person and style but they're more than enough to bottom out switches...If you increase the resistance so much as they get closer to bottoming out that it exceeds the force normally provided by someone typing their fastest then they will stop.  But that's the same (effectively) as them bottoming out.  It isn't them trying to stop themselves from hitting bottom, it is the excessive force needed to overcome what little there is left. 

I'm not saying the right style is to slam the keys...but when people say they use the bump to not bottom out, that's complete BS...it has been BS since the beginning..it's the biggest lie in this hobby and so far, no one has proven it to be anything but a lie.  Sure, you can add heavy springs, you can have a switch that ramps up the force needed so much that it makes it possible to not technically bottom out..but you're still using something within the switch to stop you from bottoming out which is not the same thing as you stopping yourself from bottoming out. 

Analogy: If we have equally fast racecars and I have to travel half the distance you do, I win. Also speed and power are often tradeoffs. A heavyweight boxer is not as fast as a welterweight but has much more powerful strikes, do you agree?
Distance might be relative...if that is making you type faster great.  Some people type faster with scissor switches..some do not.  But there is rhythm and other things involved when typing..which is why a completely FLAT keyboard with zero travel is not likely to be the fastest someone types on correct? And yet by your example it should be...So as you already said, your analogy might not hold up...in fact, it doesn't, we know from experience it doesn't.  TECHNICALLY that might be true but we know that for humans, it doesn't work out that way. 
It is the same with your calculation...least amount of resistance, shortest distance should provide the most efficient and likely fastest way to type..except we don't operate like that.  There is balance and rhythm and other movements involved...That's why in sports, having a lighter club, or bat or racket might make it a bit faster..but too light and you're not only losing out on the mass, you're losing out on rhythm and even speed because it doesn't suit you.


tl;dr - Bottoming out doesn't make me faster and I feel like it can be quantified even if I can't qualify it. If someone else finds bottoming out to be faster based on their typing style, then that's faster for them. At the end of the day, OP has two differing opinions and they can try them both out and see what works better for them. And maybe we can offer differing opinions without calling someone else's argument BS because it doesn't apply to them even though there's multiple threads on here, DT, and Reddit that have people on either side of the aisle.

There are a bunch of people claiming bottoming out is faster and yet NO ONE has over shown that..or even have a video of them typing without bottoming out at a fast speed.  In fact, you rarely see people showing videos of not bottoming out because their typing style looks ridiculous...

I'm not there to critique whatever style you're typing in..I'm just calling BS on the not bottoming out.  Of course if you have a switch designed to ramp up the weight or o-rings, sure, you can do it...but anyone saying they're responding to the tactile bump and have trained themselves to stop there is full of it...that's always been the case.  There even used to be people claiming they didn't bottom out with Topre..and we know they're full of it. 

The best I've seen people do is lightly bottom out...which is probably as efficient as you're going to get.  You might not even bottom out all the time and that's great..but whenever I hear someone say they're at 120 without bottoming...Prove it. Simple.

Offline diazel

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 11 November 2020, 07:18:49 »
Man, your commitment of trying to invalidate me is impressive.

Out of curiosity, how fast do you type, Polymer?

Offline Polymer

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 11 November 2020, 11:04:06 »
Man, your commitment of trying to invalidate me is impressive.

Out of curiosity, how fast do you type, Polymer?

Just calling out the BS that somehow comes back here and there...the total myth about not bottoming out.  The basics are, if you want to try to type that way, you can but you're giving up speed.  And the notion that it is faster or more efficient or even healthier for your fingers is a complete myth.   What is worse is when people say the tactile bump tells them when to stop - that's laughable. 

Again, if you want to rig your switches so they are difficult to "bottom out" that's fine..but that's really the same thing as bottoming out you've just artificially changed the point at which the switch effectively stops.  If you're faster with typing that way, that's great...I definitely think that finding the right travel distance for your typing style can only help.  If you don't consider this bottoming out, that's fine, I do because the issue I have with bottoming out is trying to stop yourself from hitting the "bottom" of the switch by somehow holding back yourself from pressing down further than the minimum necessary to actuate.... 

I type at 120+ although that neither validates or invalidates what I'm saying...

Offline diazel

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 11 November 2020, 11:24:08 »
Well, it's not worth continuing this conversation because I'm arguing everyone is different and it's possible and you're arguing everyone is full of crap and wrong.

You win, you're the master of keyboards. Honestly, I had planned on uploading a video because you had me doubting myself and I hit 110 on MX browns without bottoming. But I'm sure you will argue because there are points that I do bottom out. BS, space, double letters are the times where I seem to always bottom out while I don't bottom on the majority of the alphas. But again, it's not worth continuing this anymore so you win. Grats!

Btw, me asking how fast you type wasn't an attempt to validate or invalidate what you say. I'm just trying to understand the logic or science behind what you're saying outside of it's how you feel. Making statements like "...that force will vary by person and style but they're more than enough to bottom out switches..." without applying any science or studies or proof, how is your argument any better than mine?

Anyway, glad to accept the L and move on. Congrats again.

Offline Polymer

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 11 November 2020, 13:16:35 »
Well, it's not worth continuing this conversation because I'm arguing everyone is different and it's possible and you're arguing everyone is full of crap and wrong.

You win, you're the master of keyboards. Honestly, I had planned on uploading a video because you had me doubting myself and I hit 110 on MX browns without bottoming. But I'm sure you will argue because there are points that I do bottom out. BS, space, double letters are the times where I seem to always bottom out while I don't bottom on the majority of the alphas. But again, it's not worth continuing this anymore so you win. Grats!

Btw, me asking how fast you type wasn't an attempt to validate or invalidate what you say. I'm just trying to understand the logic or science behind what you're saying outside of it's how you feel. Making statements like "...that force will vary by person and style but they're more than enough to bottom out switches..." without applying any science or studies or proof, how is your argument any better than mine?

Anyway, glad to accept the L and move on. Congrats again.

It is purely anecdotal.  But the gauntlet has been thrown multiple times..and everyone has failed.  To go back to the fastest typers..they're all bottoming out.  That doesn't prove anything, it is just a data point.  We've also seen people that type without bottoming out, and it is a joke. 

Now, there have been people who type quickly and just bottom out some of the time...and generally what I've seen is people are typing light and fast enough will go through hitting bottom lightly with sometimes not bottoming out...It isn't because they care about not bottoming out, they're just typing quickly and lightly.

Everyone obsessed about not bottoming out, makes an extra effort not to..and that impacts their speed.

But simply - Prove me wrong.  You're claiming you do it so prove to everyone you're at 110-120 without bottoming out.  If you're bottoming out some of the time, qualify that statement.  Show people it can be done.   Last person who was close was typing at 130-140 and he was still bottoming out although probably very lightly a majority of the time...that's still bottoming out.

If you want to say to type as light as you can while not compromising on speed..then say that..but when people say they react to the tactile bump..and that's how to type, and not bottoming out is the best way to type quickly...that has not been shown to be the case by anyone...

Offline diazel

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 11 November 2020, 16:32:37 »
I had planned on uploading a video to show you but honestly continuing to argue this against someone who is not even willing to consider the other side anyway is a waste of time imo. You feel so completely strong about this, you couldn't possibly be wrong so you win. <3

Offline Polymer

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 12 November 2020, 10:25:11 »
I had planned on uploading a video to show you but honestly continuing to argue this against someone who is not even willing to consider the other side anyway is a waste of time imo. You feel so completely strong about this, you couldn't possibly be wrong so you win. <3

Wouldn't a video show exactly that?  Isn't that why I'm asking for a video?  But what usually happens is the reality of bottoming out is, you're bottoming out...maybe not hard or every keystroke, but you're bottoming out and that's why you don't want to show a video (and why others never do).   But provide a video showing you're not at 110-120wpm (or the 120+ you've claimed, even better) and for sure I'll tell you great job and consider that it is possible. That's why I'm asking for proof.  Simple.  It isn't a matter of opinion.  If you're not bottoming out, you're not bottoming out.  Obviously if you quantify you're bottoming out only X amount of time or with certain keys then this becomes more difficult to see on video but if you're confident, prove it. 
« Last Edit: Thu, 12 November 2020, 10:27:42 by Polymer »

Offline Sintpinty

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 12 November 2020, 11:11:18 »
I think improving typing or touch typing to be more specific is all about how much time you're willing to invest.

Me personally, I've had Blacks, Blues and Reds.

Blues - I had a Razer BlackWidow and I got aquainted to that Keyboard in a somewhat fast manner, the max typing test I got over on 10fastfingers was 125-135WPM.

Reds - I had a Noppoo Choc Mini and this took me a fair amount of time to get used to, because of how light the keys are, sadly this is not the keyboard that I can type the best on, but it's the one that I enjoy typing on the most, I think it's a better fit overall for me but the best I got on reds was around 95-110WPM. (dem mistakes).

Blacks - For this I have and I'm currently still using the Keycool 84, now while this keyboard is very nice, I cannot get used to the blacks my WPM has not been over 105/110, which is a bit of a disappointment as my friends who I have advised keyboards too rave over Blacks and how they like them etc, etc, maybe it's this keyboard, but I'm 100% sure it's the switch.

I think to improve you need have better positioning of your keyboard, maybe invest in a wristrest, (I've got the Grifiti 12" wristrest) and just practice, practice, practice. Find the right switch for you and then just stick with that's what I should of done in all fairness, but problems arose with my Noppoo and has forced me to switch to Blacks with the Keycool 84, but hopefully this issue will be sorted when my new Keycool arrives from qTan in a few weeks. :)

Show Image


Just got this on blacks just now, I made a few mistakes and had a slow start, but It's all about practice, I want to maintain a consistent 115-130 and then I'll be happy.


thats klinda sus

Offline diazel

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 12 November 2020, 13:28:58 »
I had planned on uploading a video to show you but honestly continuing to argue this against someone who is not even willing to consider the other side anyway is a waste of time imo. You feel so completely strong about this, you couldn't possibly be wrong so you win. <3

Wouldn't a video show exactly that?  Isn't that why I'm asking for a video?  But what usually happens is the reality of bottoming out is, you're bottoming out...maybe not hard or every keystroke, but you're bottoming out and that's why you don't want to show a video (and why others never do).   But provide a video showing you're not at 110-120wpm (or the 120+ you've claimed, even better) and for sure I'll tell you great job and consider that it is possible. That's why I'm asking for proof.  Simple.  It isn't a matter of opinion.  If you're not bottoming out, you're not bottoming out.  Obviously if you quantify you're bottoming out only X amount of time or with certain keys then this becomes more difficult to see on video but if you're confident, prove it. 

A video would show exactly that. And you had me doubting myself so I did another half a dozen tests because you had me doubting myself, I can say I'm 100% confident. And, hell, maybe the reasoning has more to do with my motor skills because the harder I type, the more mistakes I make so that slows me down. But from the moment you offered your opinions, it's been in a nasty way that calls out everyone as wrong who doesn't agree with them while offering refutation like this:

"There are plenty of studies that talk whether it makes sense to move to an alternate layout..but those studies are flawed.  You only really have to look at the basics of it."

If there are studies, are all of these studies meritless? Have they been conducted in a manner that is biased? Or are they legit studies and you're a science denier?

You are so knowledgeable and so experienced, it doesn't matter what other people think or say if you can say they're wrong while offering refutations like this: "You only really have to look at the basics of it." Perhaps if the fastest typists in the world don't use the same layout or typing styles then perhaps there's a small chance that what you accept to be the absolute truth...isn't. Because everyone is different. I have had fun on monkey-type where they have an option to type the mirror image instead of regular text. My PR is 85wpm. Can you do that? If you can't, does that mean it's not possible? I had a friend that could type 70wpm one-handed (I didn't want to know why). I claimed it wasn't possible.  I watched him do it. I lost $20 in the process. I accept that you're mostly right and maybe you're right for >90-95%. Maybe more. If one person out of 1,000 improves from advice given that is unorthodox or not the norm, then that person would find it useful advice.

I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else, here. I offered advice that works for me and you **** all over it. I start to question myself so I test it out and find largely I practice what I preach. At this point, I doubt even a video would change your mind because as you said it would be too difficult for you to tell since I admit that I do occasionally bottom out. Sorry to say but it's not worth to continue with the negativity so let me reiterate for the last time:

Polymer - 1; Diazel - 0. I WAS WRONG AND I CONCEDE MY LOSS.

Time to for me to move on and not waste anymore time arguing over this. Thanks for the memories. :thumb:

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1529
Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 12 November 2020, 16:57:43 »
I had planned on uploading a video to show you but honestly continuing to argue this against someone who is not even willing to consider the other side anyway is a waste of time imo. You feel so completely strong about this, you couldn't possibly be wrong so you win. <3

Wouldn't a video show exactly that?  Isn't that why I'm asking for a video?  But what usually happens is the reality of bottoming out is, you're bottoming out...maybe not hard or every keystroke, but you're bottoming out and that's why you don't want to show a video (and why others never do).   But provide a video showing you're not at 110-120wpm (or the 120+ you've claimed, even better) and for sure I'll tell you great job and consider that it is possible. That's why I'm asking for proof.  Simple.  It isn't a matter of opinion.  If you're not bottoming out, you're not bottoming out.  Obviously if you quantify you're bottoming out only X amount of time or with certain keys then this becomes more difficult to see on video but if you're confident, prove it. 

A video would show exactly that. And you had me doubting myself so I did another half a dozen tests because you had me doubting myself, I can say I'm 100% confident. And, hell, maybe the reasoning has more to do with my motor skills because the harder I type, the more mistakes I make so that slows me down. But from the moment you offered your opinions, it's been in a nasty way that calls out everyone as wrong who doesn't agree with them while offering refutation like this:

"There are plenty of studies that talk whether it makes sense to move to an alternate layout..but those studies are flawed.  You only really have to look at the basics of it."

If there are studies, are all of these studies meritless? Have they been conducted in a manner that is biased? Or are they legit studies and you're a science denier?

You are so knowledgeable and so experienced, it doesn't matter what other people think or say if you can say they're wrong while offering refutations like this: "You only really have to look at the basics of it." Perhaps if the fastest typists in the world don't use the same layout or typing styles then perhaps there's a small chance that what you accept to be the absolute truth...isn't. Because everyone is different. I have had fun on monkey-type where they have an option to type the mirror image instead of regular text. My PR is 85wpm. Can you do that? If you can't, does that mean it's not possible? I had a friend that could type 70wpm one-handed (I didn't want to know why). I claimed it wasn't possible.  I watched him do it. I lost $20 in the process. I accept that you're mostly right and maybe you're right for >90-95%. Maybe more. If one person out of 1,000 improves from advice given that is unorthodox or not the norm, then that person would find it useful advice.

I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else, here. I offered advice that works for me and you **** all over it. I start to question myself so I test it out and find largely I practice what I preach. At this point, I doubt even a video would change your mind because as you said it would be too difficult for you to tell since I admit that I do occasionally bottom out. Sorry to say but it's not worth to continue with the negativity so let me reiterate for the last time:

Polymer - 1; Diazel - 0. I WAS WRONG AND I CONCEDE MY LOSS.

Time to for me to move on and not waste anymore time arguing over this. Thanks for the memories. :thumb:

Have you actually read the studies about the alternative layouts?  And the data and how it was evaluated was flawed...you learn this in college.  You can create studies that come to the conclusion you want..you can look at the data how you want..you can even just look at things on the surface and say see, the study says X but they tend to be flawed. 

What I find ironic is somehow you are arguing not bottoming out (or less travel) is faster...but literally the exact same thing except that rather than you fingers just go up and down..they have to change rows and a the letters tend to be lopsided as far as which hand does the most typing..and somehow you're claiming that maybe 1mm of travel makes a bigger difference than centimeters of travel....

You're 100% confident..but won't post a video.  Yeah.  Keep thinking what you want but stop giving people bad advice.

Offline diazel

  • Posts: 80
Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 13 November 2020, 06:04:57 »
I haven't read the studies you reference. Please post links to them all so I could read them. Thanks.

Offline mrvco

  • Posts: 36
Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 14 November 2020, 20:15:57 »
I see a lot of the mech community using monkeytype as a benchmark for WPM.  I'm curious how your speed compares in moneytype to a more real-world / practical typing test site like keyhero.com that uses actual quotes with punctuation, number, names, etc.?  I need to spend some time w/ monkeytype and see how my performance there compares to my keyhero.com tests which are currently averaging ~90 WPM w/ ~98.3% accuracy.
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 November 2020, 23:26:32 by mrvco »

Offline diazel

  • Posts: 80
Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 14 November 2020, 21:19:38 »
I see a lot of the mech community using monkeytype as a benchmark for WPM.  I'm curious how your speed compares in moneytype to a more real-world / practical typing test site like keyhero.com that uses actual quotes with punctuation, number, names, etc.?  I need to spend some time w/ monkeytype and see how my performance there compares to my keyhero.com tests which are currently averaging 90 WPM w/ ~98.3% accuracy.
Monkey can do quotes too. They've got classics, leaders, poems, literary figures, even Michael Scott.

Only thing is the quotes are varied in length, punctuation, etc. Some might be paragraphs, some single lines. Each one will have it's record too unlike the regular timed tests

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


Offline Sintpinty

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Re: howto improve writing skills (wpm)
« Reply #48 on: Sat, 14 November 2020, 21:42:18 »
I see a lot of the mech community using monkeytype as a benchmark for WPM.  I'm curious how your speed compares in moneytype to a more real-world / practical typing test site like keyhero.com that uses actual quotes with punctuation, number, names, etc.?  I need to spend some time w/ monkeytype and see how my performance there compares to my keyhero.com tests which are currently averaging 90 WPM w/ ~98.3% accuracy.

My typing speed is about 15% slower than my max efficiency

Monke