Author Topic: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?  (Read 9634 times)

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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 02 January 2014, 20:19:50 »
I asked a while ago and no one replied... and I can't quite tell from the photos: are the thick PBT caps Cherry profile or OEM?  If Cherry, then there is your a answer.   It's not about weight here, it's about torque.  From experience, the difference in height makes for a noticeable difference in torque.  If it's OEM profile, then it doesn't make sense that the switches would feel heavier vs. other OEM caps.
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Offline Saviant

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 02 January 2014, 23:05:02 »
The thick PBT caps are Cherry Profile

Offline tbc

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 02 January 2014, 23:08:23 »
i thought vortex made thick pbt oem profile with the really bad italized font?
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #53 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 01:15:41 »
The thick PBT caps are Cherry Profile

They are not, and you don't have any evidence. The Ducky caps are certainly OEM, which is obvious since they're a Chinese-based company.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #54 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 01:43:43 »
The thick PBT caps are Cherry Profile

They are not, and you don't have any evidence. The Ducky caps are certainly OEM, which is obvious since they're a Chinese-based company.

I think he's probably thinking of the IMSTO ones which are Cherry profile.  Ducky are OEM profile.  The new Vortex DS Thick PBT ones are OEM as well. 

Offline Oobly

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 05:30:44 »
I asked a while ago and no one replied... and I can't quite tell from the photos: are the thick PBT caps Cherry profile or OEM?  If Cherry, then there is your a answer.   It's not about weight here, it's about torque.  From experience, the difference in height makes for a noticeable difference in torque.  If it's OEM profile, then it doesn't make sense that the switches would feel heavier vs. other OEM caps.

I believe the caps are the same profile (OEM), but I would love to hear an explanation of where you find rotational force (torque) in a linear system (vertical key movement) which changes based on keycap height. Not trying to be argumentative, just really want to know, since I don't see it myself.
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Offline sprk

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #56 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 08:30:07 »
Yeah regardless of all the disagreements and explanations, I fail to see what torque has to do with anything. Physics, math, and calculations aside I still believe this whole deal is a case of brand new vs older/used switches. Hell I just got a new board (same brand and model) with blues and they do feel a little bit harder than the board I now keep at work.

Offline Saviant

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #57 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 09:18:59 »

The thick PBT caps are Cherry Profile

They are not, and you don't have any evidence. The Ducky caps are certainly OEM, which is obvious since they're a Chinese-based company.

Well the first lot of thick pbt I saw sold where from Imsto and were cherry profile, the ducky ones only came on certain boards so you couldn't buy them separate and didn't know about the crappy looking font ones.

Offline Linkbane

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #58 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 11:15:46 »

The thick PBT caps are Cherry Profile

They are not, and you don't have any evidence. The Ducky caps are certainly OEM, which is obvious since they're a Chinese-based company.

Well the first lot of thick pbt I saw sold where from Imsto and were cherry profile, the ducky ones only came on certain boards so you couldn't buy them separate and didn't know about the crappy looking font ones.

So what you're saying is that you based your 'knowledge' of all thick PBT caps' profile on one set you saw from IMSTO and never bothered to check the much more common ones on Ducky's keyboards or Vortex?
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Offline Saviant

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #59 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 12:06:09 »
So where is your proof that the oem profile are the most common?
Do you have numbers to show which sold more?

I have 3 different sets of the Imsto sets, as well as custom made ones. All in cherry profile.

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #60 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 14:54:33 »
Yeah regardless of all the disagreements and explanations, I fail to see what torque has to do with anything. Physics, math, and calculations aside I still believe this whole deal is a case of brand new vs older/used switches. Hell I just got a new board (same brand and model) with blues and they do feel a little bit harder than the board I now keep at work.

It would have an effect if the thick PBT caps in question were Cherry profile.  1. because Physics, and 2. personal experience where I can feel the difference.

In this case though, if the caps are the same OEM profile, it's probably minor differences between the two keyboards, and as you said, worn in used switches vs. new.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #61 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 15:18:11 »
Yeah regardless of all the disagreements and explanations, I fail to see what torque has to do with anything. Physics, math, and calculations aside I still believe this whole deal is a case of brand new vs older/used switches. Hell I just got a new board (same brand and model) with blues and they do feel a little bit harder than the board I now keep at work.

It would have an effect if the thick PBT caps in question were Cherry profile.  1. because Physics, and 2. personal experience where I can feel the difference.

In this case though, if the caps are the same OEM profile, it's probably minor differences between the two keyboards, and as you said, worn in used switches vs. new.


But how do you get any torque in a linear movement? A diagram would be great.
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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #62 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 15:27:11 »
I linked a wikipedia article to torque.  The lever is your hand, pivoted about where you rest it (on your thumb near a spacebar or wherever you like to hold it, your palm base, etc).  It's not actually linear downward motion, although in very small travel distance approximation it could be viewed as such.

P.S.: that's for regular hand positioning and touch typing.  If you're standing over your keyboard and punching on the keycaps with your finger pointed down in a direct downward motion--that would be an example of linear motion for typing.
« Last Edit: Fri, 03 January 2014, 15:31:46 by Photoelectric »
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #63 on: Sat, 04 January 2014, 02:54:39 »
I linked a wikipedia article to torque.  The lever is your hand, pivoted about where you rest it (on your thumb near a spacebar or wherever you like to hold it, your palm base, etc).  It's not actually linear downward motion, although in very small travel distance approximation it could be viewed as such.

P.S.: that's for regular hand positioning and touch typing.  If you're standing over your keyboard and punching on the keycaps with your finger pointed down in a direct downward motion--that would be an example of linear motion for typing.

But if you float your hands while typing (as you should) the "pivot" is the first knuckle of your finger and the position will be almost exactly the same relative to the top of the cap as with any other cap. The only perceivable difference will be the same as adjusting the height of your chair or desk by a couple mm. Not really significant, is it?

Cherry profile does feel different, but it has nothing to do with torque. More to do with relative keycap positions (reach) and surface angles.

I agree, the difference in feel is probably mostly just new springs vs old, but heavier caps do feel different on the same springs, mostly due to the increase in impulse needed at higher speeds.
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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #64 on: Sat, 04 January 2014, 18:52:56 »
Torque is a physical property.  Physics is everywhere in everything you physically do, so yes, it still has to do with torque.  Even if you don't move your hands at all (which you do when floating during touch typing: watch your hands while typing, you'll see).  Your fingers  and even your whole hand are a chain of interconnected pivots.  Cap profile, which includes height and surface angle, and the angle at which you apply force, all matter.   You'd have to draw hundreds of force diagrams for each scenario, but nonetheless, torque is more significant here than keycap weight, the difference in which is negligible in this case versus the force required to actuate (and bottom out).  Your second paragraph does in fact imply that the geometry changes with each profile, thus your force diagrams will be slightly different from one profile to another.  It doesn't change the physics concept behind it though.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #65 on: Sun, 05 January 2014, 02:21:41 »
I linked a wikipedia article to torque.  The lever is your hand, pivoted about where you rest it (on your thumb near a spacebar or wherever you like to hold it, your palm base, etc).  It's not actually linear downward motion, although in very small travel distance approximation it could be viewed as such.

P.S.: that's for regular hand positioning and touch typing.  If you're standing over your keyboard and punching on the keycaps with your finger pointed down in a direct downward motion--that would be an example of linear motion for typing.

But if you float your hands while typing (as you should) the "pivot" is the first knuckle of your finger and the position will be almost exactly the same relative to the top of the cap as with any other cap. The only perceivable difference will be the same as adjusting the height of your chair or desk by a couple mm. Not really significant, is it?

Cherry profile does feel different, but it has nothing to do with torque. More to do with relative keycap positions (reach) and surface angles.

I agree, the difference in feel is probably mostly just new springs vs old, but heavier caps do feel different on the same springs, mostly due to the increase in impulse needed at higher speeds.

It's torque like PHOTO said..   That's one of the advantages of Topre, because it can distribute the grinding more evenly against the inner shaft..

The design of the keycap shape is made to convert as much of the force straight down as possible, but the stem hitting the wall is unavoidable, and that IS torque due to the pivot and lever.

Offline laffindude

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #66 on: Sun, 05 January 2014, 03:34:20 »
so much fud in this thread...

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #67 on: Sun, 05 January 2014, 06:24:27 »
so much fud in this thread...

yup

it border lines make believe..   incomplete applications, to completely wrong assumptions... LOLOL..

a few days back I thought, maybe I'll fix it..  but it is actually so far gone that there isn't much to say besides some mean words...

Offline Oobly

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #68 on: Sun, 05 January 2014, 09:47:55 »
so much fud in this thread...

^^ agreed. I recommend OP closes it. It makes me tired trying to figure out the best way to explain things.

Summary from my side:

Profile is irrelevant to the thread since OP is comparing same profile keys with different mass (why they feel different to each other is another discussion). OP himself understands the impact on increase in required force to type at the same high speed (larger impulse), as shown in my last post with calculations included. Nothing constructive further to add to the discussion. Over and out.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #69 on: Sun, 05 January 2014, 10:14:19 »
Too bad your calculation is wrong.   It only works when you exceed the speed of gravity but that doesn't seem likely for most people.  You won't even do the coin thing cause you know you're afraid of being wrong...it isn't a static calculation...just try it..inviting anyone to try it...put a few more grams of weight on a big key...easier to press down quickly?  Sure seems like it...try to press down FAST...seems easier to me.  If I was able to accelerate the key so I could could cover the travel in less than .028 seconds than the heavier key would require more force but since that isn't the case, you're wrong.  You're even admitting 1key press per second would require less force..but then you use .02s as your starting point.  .02s is 50 presses in ONE SECOND.  That isn't how fast you're pressing a key.  .028s is 35 in ONE SECOND.  I doubt people are hitting that speed. 

Easy way to show me...do all the math..there is a curve going from 5s to .01 seconds..at some point the heavier key will require more force..and there is a point where it doesn't....If your math ends up being even at 5s for a key press it requires more force you know your math is wrong..we can prove that...

 

Offline Linkbane

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Re: Thick PBT - Heavy Keypresses?
« Reply #70 on: Sun, 05 January 2014, 10:58:41 »
This has gone too far, thread nuked. Thank you for the responses.
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