Author Topic: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings  (Read 25704 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #100 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 01:25:33 »
The difference between an Egdx and the HHKB rectangle is NOT a matter of preference..

Egdx is fully programmable

It conforms to the shape of ones hand

It conforms to the natural resting angle of ones wrists

It can be modified for any mx switch.. linear, or tactile

If you decide you'd like a different switch, you can easily swap them out without desoldering.

Egdxs' split-design also accomodates people with broad shoulders whose arms are further apart


The HHKB... is derivative, and is quite simply the least common denominator in design, and it performs no better or worse than any other rectangular keyboard..


The only thing that makes it special is like you've said, it's "made in japan"...  If being a weeaboo is all ur after... mission accomplished..

But to those who actually want to extract every ounce of knowledge and science out of the keyboarding hobby,   to go BEYOND simple ownership and materialistic acquisition of trophies.. 

The path towards KEYBOARD zen is only revealed to those who are willing to rethink traditions and minimize their ancestral hoarding.

Hmm I thought this thread said "HHKB Pro 2" in the title...must be some sort of joke though. Can we talk more about the Ergodox?

sure.. pm me if you like..

This thread is about HHKB mixed feelings.. and I am using Egdx as an example as to WHY.. It does not possess any innovative features that would put it much above what the OP already had.

Offline 1pq

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #101 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 01:33:58 »
The difference between an Egdx and the HHKB rectangle is NOT a matter of preference..

Egdx is fully programmable

It conforms to the shape of ones hand

It conforms to the natural resting angle of ones wrists

It can be modified for any mx switch.. linear, or tactile

If you decide you'd like a different switch, you can easily swap them out without desoldering.

Egdxs' split-design also accomodates people with broad shoulders whose arms are further apart


The HHKB... is derivative, and is quite simply the least common denominator in design, and it performs no better or worse than any other rectangular keyboard..


The only thing that makes it special is like you've said, it's "made in japan"...  If being a weeaboo is all ur after... mission accomplished..

But to those who actually want to extract every ounce of knowledge and science out of the keyboarding hobby,   to go BEYOND simple ownership and materialistic acquisition of trophies.. 

The path towards KEYBOARD zen is only revealed to those who are willing to rethink traditions and minimize their ancestral hoarding.

Hmm I thought this thread said "HHKB Pro 2" in the title...must be some sort of joke though. Can we talk more about the Ergodox?

sure.. pm me if you like..

This thread is about HHKB mixed feelings.. and I am using Egdx as an example as to WHY.. It does not possess any innovative features that would put it much above what the OP already had.
Show Image


the missed sarcasm... :-\
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #102 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 01:35:00 »
The difference between an Egdx and the HHKB rectangle is NOT a matter of preference..

Egdx is fully programmable

It conforms to the shape of ones hand

It conforms to the natural resting angle of ones wrists

It can be modified for any mx switch.. linear, or tactile

If you decide you'd like a different switch, you can easily swap them out without desoldering.

Egdxs' split-design also accomodates people with broad shoulders whose arms are further apart


The HHKB... is derivative, and is quite simply the least common denominator in design, and it performs no better or worse than any other rectangular keyboard..


The only thing that makes it special is like you've said, it's "made in japan"...  If being a weeaboo is all ur after... mission accomplished..

But to those who actually want to extract every ounce of knowledge and science out of the keyboarding hobby,   to go BEYOND simple ownership and materialistic acquisition of trophies.. 

The path towards KEYBOARD zen is only revealed to those who are willing to rethink traditions and minimize their ancestral hoarding.

Hmm I thought this thread said "HHKB Pro 2" in the title...must be some sort of joke though. Can we talk more about the Ergodox?

sure.. pm me if you like..

This thread is about HHKB mixed feelings.. and I am using Egdx as an example as to WHY.. It does not possess any innovative features that would put it much above what the OP already had.
Show Image


the missed sarcasm... :-\

same to you..

Offline Belfong

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #103 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 01:39:04 »
TP4, I agree with you that there are some who talk themselves into how great HHKB is because of the price. But now that I read your post on Ergodox and I find that you are overly praising the Ergodox to the point of being a fanboy. Ergodox is also not or everyone. Definitely not for me because I don't touch type ie I don't rest my wrist on the board so ergonomics doesn't work for me. But your post sounds as though that's the ultimate keyboard for everyone which is not true.
 

Offline 1pq

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #104 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 01:42:52 »
I think this thread needs this as well.

main kbs:  87UB (55g)  Custom Filco TKL (62g clears)

WTS JD40, Custom Ergoclear Filco

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Offline kyb

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #105 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 03:02:05 »
also not-haha, master-race is a nazi term (really it really actually really is. really)

No it's not. It's a wrong translation by Americans who have absolutely no idea what went on in Europe during WW2.

dude http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_race

Yes. Like I said, a wrong translation. Also: sourcing info from wikipedia, classy lul.

How? I'm from Germany and "master race" is a pretty good translation for "Herrenrasse".
Ergodox :o

Offline kyb

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #106 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 03:06:49 »
Quote
Ergodox

My only problem with that thing is that it's not Topre. Which is a show stopper. As nice as the angled layout is ... without Topre it's not worth using. I've got one Egdx lying around and don't use it at all because it feels like I would be typing on broken glass.
Ergodox :o

Offline takethree

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #107 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 03:39:42 »
Ok. I've received my HHKB Pro 2.

Just my initial impressions of it.

What I'm experiencing so far, you can put me under the "HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings" category lol.

I got mine yesterday and pretty much love everything about it. What do you have mixed feelings about?

The key feel is great but I'm getting tripped constantly by the layout.

Offline terran5992

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #108 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 03:58:50 »
Ok. I've received my HHKB Pro 2.

Just my initial impressions of it.

What I'm experiencing so far, you can put me under the "HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings" category lol.

I got mine yesterday and pretty much love everything about it. What do you have mixed feelings about?

The key feel is great but I'm getting tripped constantly by the layout.


You will get used to it :)

Listokei Custom  |  HHKB Pro 2  |  Topre Realforce 103UBH  |  Armageddon MKA-3


Offline rowdy

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #109 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 04:33:31 »
Ok. I've received my HHKB Pro 2.

Just my initial impressions of it.

What I'm experiencing so far, you can put me under the "HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings" category lol.

I got mine yesterday and pretty much love everything about it. What do you have mixed feelings about?

The key feel is great but I'm getting tripped constantly by the layout.


You will get used to it :)


And just as you get used to it, you will, for some reason, have to use a conventional layout keyboard and everytime you try to backspace you will get \\\\\\\

You'll keep turning caps lock on trying to get ctrl characters.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

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Offline dragonxx21

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #110 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 04:49:32 »
Still haven't tried the HHKB so I am indifferent.
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Offline atlas3686

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #111 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 05:00:56 »
Ok. I've received my HHKB Pro 2.

Just my initial impressions of it.

What I'm experiencing so far, you can put me under the "HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings" category lol.

I got mine yesterday and pretty much love everything about it. What do you have mixed feelings about?

The key feel is great but I'm getting tripped constantly by the layout.


You will get used to it :)


And just as you get used to it, you will, for some reason, have to use a conventional layout keyboard and everytime you try to backspace you will get \\\\\\\

You'll keep turning caps lock on trying to get ctrl characters.

Answer is to stick a autohotkey script that makes caps control into your Dropbox. So you can quickly run it anywhere :) caps is a entirely useless key anyway.

Offline tuxsavvy

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #112 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 06:09:05 »
The difference between an Egdx and the HHKB rectangle is NOT a matter of preference..
If it isn't then you are saying that all HHKB owners prefer HHKB is because of some other reason because of preference? weaboo? brand name? price? Topre? etc?

Egdx is fully programmable
hasu has TMK firmware for HHKB, that doesn't make HHKB more programmable?

It conforms to the shape of ones hand
It (ErgoDox) was designed to conform ergonomics, not exactly portability/minimalism which was what HHKB was after. That is why GeekHack has a separate forum for ergonomics, that is why Lexmark had M15, that is why there are other manufacturers whom have made ergonomic keyboards of sorts. The only reason is because there is a need for those who wants an ergonomic keyboard not because it was portable/minimalistic.

If one wants to compare something more ergonomic, they need to compare against μTron. Not HHKB. Comparing HHKB to ErgoDox is almost like comparing apples and oranges.

It conforms to the natural resting angle of ones wrists

Again ErgoDox has that upper hand due to the fact that it was targeting people who desire ergonomics, not necessarily portability and/or minimalism.

If you want to talk about ergonomic, talk about the likes of alphagrip, datahand, various other chorded keyboard like the BAT keyboard, etc. There are many suitable candidates for ErgoDox to compete against with not HHKB. HHKB was never really intended for ergonomics.

It can be modified for any mx switch.. linear, or tactile

It is not like one can't change the rubber domes on the HHKB to make it light, heavier or varied. Sure Cherry MX range is all about customisation and Topre isn't exactly flexible simply because the way it was designed.

If one wants to have the layout of the HHKB but prefer it using Cherry MX format. There is always GH60 which ended about a month ago which is a bit of a sad thing from Cherry MX perspective because it only existed as a GB option, not that one can simply for instance walk into the shop and pick up a GH60.

When I am referring to GH60 I am referring to a design none other than this which hopefully can refresh one's memory:


If you decide you'd like a different switch, you can easily swap them out without desoldering.
You can't easily change that on Topre switches because it was based on a fundamentally different design of the switch. Again nobody said you cannot swap the rubber domes out to make the feel heavier, etc. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! you don't even need to desolder as well, only a set of screw drivers and donor rubber domes to swap out Topre switches.

ONCE AGAIN there is things like GH60 for instance if one wants Cherry MX equivalent of HHKB. No?


Egdxs' split-design also accomodates people with broad shoulders whose arms are further apart

Talk about ergonomics again, which is comparing apples and oranges.

The HHKB... is derivative, and is quite simply the least common denominator in design, and it performs no better or worse than any other rectangular keyboard..

I never proclaimed HHKB as being any better or worse than rectangular keyboard. It is an old design that PFU has been peddling for awhile before the likes of ErgoDox came along. If one wants to add more fuel to the fire, comparing apples against with oranges.

ErgoDox (at this current stage) does not come pre-made, it is still a D-I-Y kit. ErgoDox is pretty much more or less like any other GB which involves interests and money pooling before such an idea would become viable.

HHKB is already made manufactured product which one does NOT need to pool money in for an idea. It does not require any soldering work of any sort unless if one wants to make modifications. HHKB unlike ErgoDox can be picked up from stores ready made, and ready to use. Comparing HHKB to ErgoDox is like comparing one's preference to a pre-built car against kit car. EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN TASTE.. no? do you want to start splitting hairs over preferences with premade stuff versus D-I-Y like you did by pitting HHKB against ErgoDox?

The only thing that makes it special is like you've said, it's "made in japan"...  If being a weeaboo is all ur after... mission accomplished..
Never really after weaboo status, there is a more fundamental reason which if I were to go explain it would be roughly another "wall of text" full of it.

But to those who actually want to extract every ounce of knowledge and science out of the keyboarding hobby,   to go BEYOND simple ownership and materialistic acquisition of trophies.. 

Not everyone wants to pour money into making a perfect keyboard. Not everyone necessarily would share a keyboard hobby like this forum for instance. There are no trophies for materialistic acquisition. The final product is of the product itself.

What I personally am happy is that HHKB is not some vaporware, ErgoDox isn't vaporware as well but ErgoDox STILL cannot be purchased from any chain branded electronic shops. HHKB, sure is heavily surrounded within SE Asia but that does not mean you can't walk into any electronic store in Japan for instance and not see HHKB for sale.

There are plenty of cool projects which never got materialised and remains vaporware. Clearly neither HHKB nor ErgoDox fit into the category of being as such one of them. However HHKB has been around LONGER than ErgoDox.

The path towards KEYBOARD zen is only revealed to those who are willing to rethink traditions and minimize their ancestral hoarding.
Everyone has different approach to what they want in life. It is wrong to impose one ideal method that suits of particularly one or more than a handful of people onto the rest of us. Sure in your ideal world maybe ErgoDox should be the main keyboard that every kid would crave for and every person would buy when they can, not in mine and not in reality.
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Offline osi

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #113 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 07:04:02 »
The HHKB has me so torn right now. Can't decide whether I want a black or white one for home

Offline tuxsavvy

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #114 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 07:08:00 »
The HHKB has me so torn right now. Can't decide whether I want a black or white one for home

That may give others a heads up that you should buy both (charcoal gray and white) that is. Then swap the key caps around.
HHKB Pro JP Type-S | Northgate Omnikey 101 | APC/"Clicker" F-21 (GOG3YL) | Cherry G80-5000 HAMDE

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Offline neunelfer

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #115 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 07:16:40 »
Tuxsavvy, what exactly classifies the HHKB as mechanical to you? As far as I am concerned it is not, by the definition used for Cherry switches.

Offline terran5992

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #116 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 07:38:45 »
Tuxsavvy, what exactly classifies the HHKB as mechanical to you? As far as I am concerned it is not, by the definition used for Cherry switches.

Umm i would say that the sliders make it slightly mechanical

Listokei Custom  |  HHKB Pro 2  |  Topre Realforce 103UBH  |  Armageddon MKA-3


Offline neunelfer

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #117 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 08:03:59 »
Tuxsavvy, what exactly classifies the HHKB as mechanical to you? As far as I am concerned it is not, by the definition used for Cherry switches.

Umm i would say that the sliders make it slightly mechanical

So having another piece touch the dome makes it mechanical? What about BTC rubber domes? Those have sliders.

I would call the HHKB a capacitive keyboard, not a mechanical one.
« Last Edit: Fri, 27 December 2013, 08:06:16 by neunelfer »

Offline tuxsavvy

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #118 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 08:38:01 »
Tuxsavvy, what exactly classifies the HHKB as mechanical to you? As far as I am concerned it is not, by the definition used for Cherry switches.

Umm i would say that the sliders make it slightly mechanical

So having another piece touch the dome makes it mechanical? What about BTC rubber domes? Those have sliders.

I would call the HHKB a capacitive keyboard, not a mechanical one.
Yeah to Cherry switches or other mechanical keyboards Topre switches does not really seem to have much going for the fact that it is a mechanical keyboard. Initially (this was the perception I had about half a year ago) it was because wikipedia partially hinted (on a note of related information for relevance) that HHKB is.

Anyway, I guess the fact that the rubber domes sit over the conical springs and that the entire thing rests on hard PCB. It (the feeling) is miles different from typing on rubber dome over membrane keyboard. As in there is not much of that "mushy" feeling. Also the fact that it is not the rubber domes that does much of the actuation, I believe personally it is the conical springs that shortens the connection (hence input registration). Rubber domes maybe conductive (when they are naturally not) but without conical springs I don't think Topre switch would function as it normally would just as removing the springs from Cherry MX for instance loses the rebounce and may force the keyboard controller to spam on the computer that the key has been depressed. Either that and/or Cherry MX without springs would not function normally.

I don't know much of Cherry MX lines (let alone having a Cherry MX board for that matter) though I am sure just as the springs on the Topre plays a role in (mainly I personally believe) actuation it also does a bit of "rebounce" even though it is mainly the rubber dome doing the bulk of the work.

I had a look at that BTC dome with slider wiki you linked but there are lacking pieces of information about the said "switch". Such as the fact that it seems like it is still rubber domes over membrane with a slider to act as a medium in between. One of the things that I sort of loathe about membrane sheets is when it comes to cleaning the keyboard (keycaps and keyboard case out). The amount of screws on the back of the old APC Clicker F-21 that I had to take off and any screws that are not firmly screwed it would give weird effect on the keyboard usage. That and the fact that it was a real pain to clean APC membrane with all those leaf springs, spring, and the slider that needs to be taken out. Who knows if they were weighted or anything like that? the whole process for me to just refurbish almost two decades old keyboard took me a good four to five hours to clean it.

Old membrane boards have lots of screws on the back of board to prevent any uneven feeling, A proper PCB would have seen the lesser need to fuss over trivial maintanence issue as well as the fact that the feeling are more firm than that of an improperly screwed in membrane keyboard. I am sure more modern membrane keyboards may not be as daunting but cleaning the keyboard nicely inside out can still be a pain compared to dealing with a board that has proper PCB right across the entire size of the keyboard.

There are some things that cannot simply be explained with words but the feeling of typing on a more firmer board in which other mechanical keyboards are based on (with PCB as found on Cherry MX, Buckling spring, Hall effect, Alps, etc) and the refurbishing process matters greatly in my opinion. Hence this is one of the reasons I personally believe Topre is still somewhat mechanical. See it how you like to define Topre as but to me I would say it is more mechanical than my APC Clicker F-21 (which is APC membrane).
HHKB Pro JP Type-S | Northgate Omnikey 101 | APC/"Clicker" F-21 (GOG3YL) | Cherry G80-5000 HAMDE

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Offline neunelfer

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #119 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 09:10:03 »
As far as I know, the spring in Topre switches only used to provide the change in capacitance, which changes as the spring is depressed. I believe someone experimented by removing the spring - the switch felt exactly the same but did not register.

I guess what it really comes down to is that the term mechanical keyboard is kind of loosely defined.

Offline takethree

  • Posts: 20
Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #120 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 09:12:27 »
Ok. I've received my HHKB Pro 2.

Just my initial impressions of it.

What I'm experiencing so far, you can put me under the "HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings" category lol.

I got mine yesterday and pretty much love everything about it. What do you have mixed feelings about?

The key feel is great but I'm getting tripped constantly by the layout.


You will get used to it :)


And just as you get used to it, you will, for some reason, have to use a conventional layout keyboard and everytime you try to backspace you will get \\\\\\\

You'll keep turning caps lock on trying to get ctrl characters.

Preach on brother....the more I get used to the HHKB, the more rubbish I become on the other more standard layout keyboards. I'm forcing myself to live with the HHKB to get myself used to the layout. I don't know if that is a good thing or not. I think I'm starting to get the groove of the HHKB.  :p

The typing experience is incredble but that LAYOUT!  :eek:
« Last Edit: Fri, 27 December 2013, 09:24:48 by takethree »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #121 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 11:56:21 »
The difference between an Egdx and the HHKB rectangle is NOT a matter of preference..
If it isn't then you are saying that all HHKB owners prefer HHKB is because of some other reason because of preference? weaboo? brand name? price? Topre? etc?

Egdx is fully programmable
hasu has TMK firmware for HHKB, that doesn't make HHKB more programmable?

It conforms to the shape of ones hand
It (ErgoDox) was designed to conform ergonomics, not exactly portability/minimalism which was what HHKB was after. That is why GeekHack has a separate forum for ergonomics, that is why Lexmark had M15, that is why there are other manufacturers whom have made ergonomic keyboards of sorts. The only reason is because there is a need for those who wants an ergonomic keyboard not because it was portable/minimalistic.

If one wants to compare something more ergonomic, they need to compare against μTron. Not HHKB. Comparing HHKB to ErgoDox is almost like comparing apples and oranges.

It conforms to the natural resting angle of ones wrists

Again ErgoDox has that upper hand due to the fact that it was targeting people who desire ergonomics, not necessarily portability and/or minimalism.

If you want to talk about ergonomic, talk about the likes of alphagrip, datahand, various other chorded keyboard like the BAT keyboard, etc. There are many suitable candidates for ErgoDox to compete against with not HHKB. HHKB was never really intended for ergonomics.

It can be modified for any mx switch.. linear, or tactile

It is not like one can't change the rubber domes on the HHKB to make it light, heavier or varied. Sure Cherry MX range is all about customisation and Topre isn't exactly flexible simply because the way it was designed.

If one wants to have the layout of the HHKB but prefer it using Cherry MX format. There is always GH60 which ended about a month ago which is a bit of a sad thing from Cherry MX perspective because it only existed as a GB option, not that one can simply for instance walk into the shop and pick up a GH60.

When I am referring to GH60 I am referring to a design none other than this which hopefully can refresh one's memory:
Show Image


If you decide you'd like a different switch, you can easily swap them out without desoldering.
You can't easily change that on Topre switches because it was based on a fundamentally different design of the switch. Again nobody said you cannot swap the rubber domes out to make the feel heavier, etc. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! you don't even need to desolder as well, only a set of screw drivers and donor rubber domes to swap out Topre switches.

ONCE AGAIN there is things like GH60 for instance if one wants Cherry MX equivalent of HHKB. No?


Egdxs' split-design also accomodates people with broad shoulders whose arms are further apart

Talk about ergonomics again, which is comparing apples and oranges.

The HHKB... is derivative, and is quite simply the least common denominator in design, and it performs no better or worse than any other rectangular keyboard..

I never proclaimed HHKB as being any better or worse than rectangular keyboard. It is an old design that PFU has been peddling for awhile before the likes of ErgoDox came along. If one wants to add more fuel to the fire, comparing apples against with oranges.

ErgoDox (at this current stage) does not come pre-made, it is still a D-I-Y kit. ErgoDox is pretty much more or less like any other GB which involves interests and money pooling before such an idea would become viable.

HHKB is already made manufactured product which one does NOT need to pool money in for an idea. It does not require any soldering work of any sort unless if one wants to make modifications. HHKB unlike ErgoDox can be picked up from stores ready made, and ready to use. Comparing HHKB to ErgoDox is like comparing one's preference to a pre-built car against kit car. EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN TASTE.. no? do you want to start splitting hairs over preferences with premade stuff versus D-I-Y like you did by pitting HHKB against ErgoDox?

The only thing that makes it special is like you've said, it's "made in japan"...  If being a weeaboo is all ur after... mission accomplished..
Never really after weaboo status, there is a more fundamental reason which if I were to go explain it would be roughly another "wall of text" full of it.

But to those who actually want to extract every ounce of knowledge and science out of the keyboarding hobby,   to go BEYOND simple ownership and materialistic acquisition of trophies.. 

Not everyone wants to pour money into making a perfect keyboard. Not everyone necessarily would share a keyboard hobby like this forum for instance. There are no trophies for materialistic acquisition. The final product is of the product itself.

What I personally am happy is that HHKB is not some vaporware, ErgoDox isn't vaporware as well but ErgoDox STILL cannot be purchased from any chain branded electronic shops. HHKB, sure is heavily surrounded within SE Asia but that does not mean you can't walk into any electronic store in Japan for instance and not see HHKB for sale.

There are plenty of cool projects which never got materialised and remains vaporware. Clearly neither HHKB nor ErgoDox fit into the category of being as such one of them. However HHKB has been around LONGER than ErgoDox.

The path towards KEYBOARD zen is only revealed to those who are willing to rethink traditions and minimize their ancestral hoarding.
Everyone has different approach to what they want in life. It is wrong to impose one ideal method that suits of particularly one or more than a handful of people onto the rest of us. Sure in your ideal world maybe ErgoDox should be the main keyboard that every kid would crave for and every person would buy when they can, not in mine and not in reality.

[/size]




Portability and minimalism...

NOT attributes to be considered...

It is inconvenient to carry an "extra" keyboard around...  then everytime you use it, you gotta PLUG IT IN... and when you leave,, you gotta do the whole shtick over again...

MOST people who claim to do this, STOP after the first few times... it's too much commitment for virtually no gain..


The  HHKB is like women wearing uncomfortable shoes... Except instead of silly women, you have silly n00b weeaboos...



Offline tuxsavvy

  • Posts: 441
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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #122 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 12:46:25 »
As far as I know, the spring in Topre switches only used to provide the change in capacitance, which changes as the spring is depressed. I believe someone experimented by removing the spring - the switch felt exactly the same but did not register.

I guess what it really comes down to is that the term mechanical keyboard is kind of loosely defined.

As said, the springs do very little in providing much of the rebounce, most of the time when the keys rebounce on Topre it is mostly the rubber domes doing the work. That said, it does not imply the springs are useless in the case of Topre, even if a conical spring sits in between but does not help the rubber dome it would still reform and maintain the original structure (conical spring that is).

I am not a connoisseur on Topre or mechanical keyboard in general. What I do understand is that there are lots of people that takes different sides of the same switch to talk about whether or not if Topre is mechanical or should be deemed as such or not. To me Topre would still seem partly mechanical (if not fully mechanical that is). Again also to me is that most mechanical switches share something in common. That they are vastly placed/mounted on PCB. APC membranes for instance are an exception but regardless in the very least Topre should still be seen as partly mechanical if one still thinks Topre is not fully mechanical.

There are also people who I am sure would like to go as far back as the typewriters to have the most mechanical sort of keyboards whereby it predates Hall effect switches. Some of them would probably call them as true mechanical keys as opposed to the more modern form of electro mechanical keyboards that it has been evolved to in today's realm.

Portability and minimalism...

NOT attributes to be considered...

It is inconvenient to carry an "extra" keyboard around...  then everytime you use it, you gotta PLUG IT IN... and when you leave,, you gotta do the whole shtick over again...

MOST people who claim to do this, STOP after the first few times... it's too much commitment for virtually no gain..


The  HHKB is like women wearing uncomfortable shoes... Except instead of silly women, you have silly n00b weeaboos...




So what is 60% keyboard in your definition? if they are not portable or minimalist? to go as far as declaring 60% boards are some "old rectangular shaped keyboard with lesser keys" would be just as bad as saying ErgoDox is just another fancy flair of redefining ergonomic keyboards at the expense of having it made exclusively available to a set of diehard DIY "keyboard elitists" who believe this (ErgoDox) creation rules all keyboards or even any ergonomic keyboard. If you want to phrase it like how you are trying to declare HHKB or 60% is inferior to ErgoDox then that will be how I will declare ErgoDox fans such as yourself whom cannot accept other people's preferences on 60% boards or HHKB for that matter.

As for the point on those whom you say stop after a few times when it comes to switching keyboards, sure that maybe true but that does not mean that HHKB was only designed to be carried around constantly. This is an attribute of human's desire not of the keyboard's design which makes humans not wanting to move around the keyboard. On the contrary, who do you think would switch Cherry MX switches often enough on their ErgoDox? going from whatever they started with to keep switching Cherry MX combinations until they are happy with their layout? or do you think that owners of ErgoDox would be unwilling to change Cherry MX switches after a few times as the result of annoyance? Do you seriously think that is the fault of the ErgoDox just as those who does not unplug and plug their HHKB in to various devices to be the fault of HHKB?

Oh wow, such rage on the last line. Do you want a cookie? did someone piss on your breakfast or something? or is it that you can't stop lashing out your rage on HHKB threads where possible? How would you like it if I were to do the same thing on every thread about ErgoDox? "ErgoDox is like all these hardcore DIY keyboard elitists thinking they are on top of the world smoking on I don't know what but you guess".

If you seriously think HHKB was some "perfect" solution to everything. Then you seriously have a deluded mind. The world is about taste, not convoluted and biased theories between mere different keyboard layouts and structures built for different purposes in mind. My posts on this thread was to not compare ErgoDox against HHKB, let me get that message clear and straight to you. Not until you decided to pit HHKB (or 60%) against this "perfect" ErgoDox of yours.
HHKB Pro JP Type-S | Northgate Omnikey 101 | APC/"Clicker" F-21 (GOG3YL) | Cherry G80-5000 HAMDE

僕の日本語が下手です。我的中文也一樣爛。

Offline rowdy

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #123 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 19:23:14 »
Portability and minimalism...

NOT attributes to be considered...

It is inconvenient to carry an "extra" keyboard around...  then everytime you use it, you gotta PLUG IT IN... and when you leave,, you gotta do the whole shtick over again...

MOST people who claim to do this, STOP after the first few times... it's too much commitment for virtually no gain..

The  HHKB is like women wearing uncomfortable shoes... Except instead of silly women, you have silly n00b weeaboos...

Unless it is not secure to leave a keyboard somewhere overnight.  E.g. at some work places an expensive keyboard might go missing.


When I am referring to GH60 I am referring to a design none other than this which hopefully can refresh one's memory:

Show Image


I'd love to see this set on my HHKB!
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline terran5992

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #124 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 20:07:34 »
Portability and minimalism...

NOT attributes to be considered...

It is inconvenient to carry an "extra" keyboard around...  then everytime you use it, you gotta PLUG IT IN... and when you leave,, you gotta do the whole shtick over again...

MOST people who claim to do this, STOP after the first few times... it's too much commitment for virtually no gain..

The  HHKB is like women wearing uncomfortable shoes... Except instead of silly women, you have silly n00b weeaboos...

Unless it is not secure to leave a keyboard somewhere overnight.  E.g. at some work places an expensive keyboard might go missing.


When I am referring to GH60 I am referring to a design none other than this which hopefully can refresh one's memory:

Show Image


I'd love to see this set on my HHKB!

Id love to see new caps for HHKB

Listokei Custom  |  HHKB Pro 2  |  Topre Realforce 103UBH  |  Armageddon MKA-3


Offline Beca

  • Posts: 342
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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #125 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:20:00 »
So, I just received the HHKB Pro 2 in the mail, and not that thrilled with it so far. The topre switches definitely are unique compared to cherry mx switches, but it feels too much like a rubberdome to me. I've been using it for about an hour so far total, but I don't know if more time will make it feel that much better.

I think...the hype got to me and I set my expectations way too high. :( I'm just a cherry person.

Offline riotonthebay

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #126 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:21:30 »
So, I just received the HHKB Pro 2 in the mail, and not that thrilled with it so far. The topre switches definitely are unique compared to cherry mx switches, but it feels too much like a rubberdome to me. I've been using it for about an hour so far total, but I don't know if more time will make it feel that much better.

I think...the hype got to me and I set my expectations way too high. :( I'm just a cherry person.

Well, the good news is that you can easily make your money back my reselling it :D. Maybe you'll lose on the cost of shipping, but I'd probably pay $15 to play with an HHKB for a day…

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #127 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:26:18 »
So, I just received the HHKB Pro 2 in the mail, and not that thrilled with it so far. The topre switches definitely are unique compared to cherry mx switches, but it feels too much like a rubberdome to me. I've been using it for about an hour so far total, but I don't know if more time will make it feel that much better.

I think...the hype got to me and I set my expectations way too high. :( I'm just a cherry person.

Well, the good news is that you can easily make your money back my reselling it :D. Maybe you'll lose on the cost of shipping, but I'd probably pay $15 to play with an HHKB for a day…

Yea I know exactly what Beca is feeling.. it's not a huge problem.. perhaps it will even grow on you...  just be weary that it may be the "need" to justify the cost of the product which ultimately convert you, rather than the product itself..

Whatever happens in the end though... as long as YOU feel happy about it.. $300 isn't really that much money one way or the other..  so.. sigh..  I guess even with all my advice and comparison..  if it's happiness we're after.. then so be it..


Offline 1pq

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #128 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:38:11 »
So, I just received the HHKB Pro 2 in the mail, and not that thrilled with it so far. The topre switches definitely are unique compared to cherry mx switches, but it feels too much like a rubberdome to me. I've been using it for about an hour so far total, but I don't know if more time will make it feel that much better.

I think...the hype got to me and I set my expectations way too high. :( I'm just a cherry person.

I felt exactly the same way when I got my FC660C. Cherry and topre boards feel incredibly different, and honestly, I much preferred my mx blue board. However, I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything, so I typed on topre for a while. It felt heavier than my blues, and I detested it for gaming. However, when writing long papers for school, it was perfect. I didn't try to type my fastest speed--I tried to enjoy every keypress, being methodical in my typing--sort of like writing by hand. This is the reason I love topres for writing: it's not fast and acute like MX, but once you get into a slower pattern, you can start to enjoy that satisfying thock and buttery smoothness...it really feels incredible! Although tp4 might be convinced that it's just my subconscious trying to justify the money I spent on the board, I know he's wrong  :))
Anyway, it took about two months from getting the board to enjoying typing on it for me. Most topre users hate their purchases at least for a week, usually more. So I wouldn't worry about it now: you will probably end up appreciating it in the future, but if you don't, you can always sell it in the classifieds here for almost as much as what you paid for it  ;)
main kbs:  87UB (55g)  Custom Filco TKL (62g clears)

WTS JD40, Custom Ergoclear Filco

WTB ROHS Red BBv2 (Topre), OG EK Tri-Color Skull (TOPRE)

Offline Beca

  • Posts: 342
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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #129 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:42:16 »
So, I just received the HHKB Pro 2 in the mail, and not that thrilled with it so far. The topre switches definitely are unique compared to cherry mx switches, but it feels too much like a rubberdome to me. I've been using it for about an hour so far total, but I don't know if more time will make it feel that much better.

I think...the hype got to me and I set my expectations way too high. :( I'm just a cherry person.

Well, the good news is that you can easily make your money back my reselling it :D. Maybe you'll lose on the cost of shipping, but I'd probably pay $15 to play with an HHKB for a day…

Yea I know exactly what Beca is feeling.. it's not a huge problem.. perhaps it will even grow on you...  just be weary that it may be the "need" to justify the cost of the product which ultimately convert you, rather than the product itself..

Whatever happens in the end though... as long as YOU feel happy about it.. $300 isn't really that much money one way or the other..  so.. sigh..  I guess even with all my advice and comparison..  if it's happiness we're after.. then so be it..

yeah, guess i'll just type on it for a bit, then sell if it I still don't feel that satisfied. it's my most expensive keyboard purchase to date as well which doesn't help haha. do you have an HHKB?

@riotonthebay: i love the resale values on keyboards, i don't think $15 is too bad for getting to try out a switch at all. i'll probably let this go for $200 shipped if i end up still not liking it.

@1pq: i've read that a lot, but i''m pretty impatient when it comes to keyboards  :eek:; I honestly kind of like it, but i am  weighing it against how much i paid for the keyboard itself. the keyboard is so cute and tiny but i think that i would prefer a realforce cause i kind of miss my arrow keys, haha.

i would try this out on league, but it's down right now :(

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #130 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:44:27 »
So, I just received the HHKB Pro 2 in the mail, and not that thrilled with it so far. The topre switches definitely are unique compared to cherry mx switches, but it feels too much like a rubberdome to me. I've been using it for about an hour so far total, but I don't know if more time will make it feel that much better.

I think...the hype got to me and I set my expectations way too high. :( I'm just a cherry person.

Well, the good news is that you can easily make your money back my reselling it :D. Maybe you'll lose on the cost of shipping, but I'd probably pay $15 to play with an HHKB for a day…

Yea I know exactly what Beca is feeling.. it's not a huge problem.. perhaps it will even grow on you...  just be weary that it may be the "need" to justify the cost of the product which ultimately convert you, rather than the product itself..

Whatever happens in the end though... as long as YOU feel happy about it.. $300 isn't really that much money one way or the other..  so.. sigh..  I guess even with all my advice and comparison..  if it's happiness we're after.. then so be it..

yeah, guess i'll just type on it for a bit, then sell if it I still don't feel that satisfied. it's my most expensive keyboard purchase to date as well which doesn't help haha. do you have an HHKB?

@riotonthebay: i love the resale values on keyboards, i don't think $15 is too bad for getting to try out a switch at all. i'll probably let this go for $200 shipped if i end up still not liking it.

@1pq: i've read that a lot, but i''m pretty impatient when it comes to keyboards  :eek:; I honestly kind of like it, but i am  weighing it against how much i paid for the keyboard itself. the keyboard is so cute and tiny but i think that i would prefer a realforce cause i kind of miss my arrow keys, haha.

i would try this out on league, but it's down right now :(

I never had an hhkb, I've had the poker and the 87u, that was when I first became highly critical of the Topre fanboi crowd... it really wasn't that i lost money on the purchase.. 

It was cuz those fanbois let me down....

Offline 1pq

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #131 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:47:13 »
@1pq: i've read that a lot, but i''m pretty impatient when it comes to keyboards  :eek:; I honestly kind of like it, but i am  weighing it against how much i paid for the keyboard itself. the keyboard is so cute and tiny but i think that i would prefer a realforce cause i kind of miss my arrow keys, haha.

i would try this out on league, but it's down right now :(

Don't get your hopes up about it for league. Gaming on topre switches (IMO) is definitely sub-par.
It really depends on what things you're going to be doing. If you do a lot of coding/gaming, where quick, accurate key presses are common, then you may not enjoy topre. If you're a writer, or do a lot of writing (not code, but it could be emails, GH posts, you name it) I find topre to be the best. Personally, I like to bottom out fairly hard on topre (for the thock). Bottoming out too softly is less satisfying. If you try bottoming out hard, you might befriend the magically thock more quickly...  ;D
main kbs:  87UB (55g)  Custom Filco TKL (62g clears)

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Offline 1pq

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #132 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:48:24 »
I never had an hhkb, I've had the poker and the 87u, that was when I first became highly critical of the Topre fanboi crowd... it really wasn't that i lost money on the purchase.. 

It was cuz those fanbois let me down....

This is pretty funny considering how much you criticize the HHKB
main kbs:  87UB (55g)  Custom Filco TKL (62g clears)

WTS JD40, Custom Ergoclear Filco

WTB ROHS Red BBv2 (Topre), OG EK Tri-Color Skull (TOPRE)

Offline Beca

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #133 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:55:31 »
@1pq: i've read that a lot, but i''m pretty impatient when it comes to keyboards  :eek:; I honestly kind of like it, but i am  weighing it against how much i paid for the keyboard itself. the keyboard is so cute and tiny but i think that i would prefer a realforce cause i kind of miss my arrow keys, haha.

i would try this out on league, but it's down right now :(

Don't get your hopes up about it for league. Gaming on topre switches (IMO) is definitely sub-par.
It really depends on what things you're going to be doing. If you do a lot of coding/gaming, where quick, accurate key presses are common, then you may not enjoy topre. If you're a writer, or do a lot of writing (not code, but it could be emails, GH posts, you name it) I find topre to be the best. Personally, I like to bottom out fairly hard on topre (for the thock). Bottoming out too softly is less satisfying. If you try bottoming out hard, you might befriend the magically thock more quickly...  ;D
People said blue switches weren't that great for gaming either but they were fine for me! I'm not really the person to mash on a button consistently though.

honestly, i'm just underwhelmed with the switches so far. I think i'm just a clack kind of person rather than a thock one, haha.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #134 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:57:59 »
I never had an hhkb, I've had the poker and the 87u, that was when I first became highly critical of the Topre fanboi crowd... it really wasn't that i lost money on the purchase.. 

It was cuz those fanbois let me down....

This is pretty funny considering how much you criticize the HHKB

You misunderstand I criticize the topre fanbois.. general rectangular shape boards, and staggered..

If ANY board/ fans fit into those categories..  I am your enemy.

also remember, I am open to the fact that sometimes,, a rectangle is all you need...  but when the fanboi push THEIR rectangle onto other people WITHOUT good reasons other than their emotional attachment...

I will be there for the block...

Offline 1pq

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #135 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:59:56 »
@1pq: i've read that a lot, but i''m pretty impatient when it comes to keyboards  :eek:; I honestly kind of like it, but i am  weighing it against how much i paid for the keyboard itself. the keyboard is so cute and tiny but i think that i would prefer a realforce cause i kind of miss my arrow keys, haha.

i would try this out on league, but it's down right now :(

Don't get your hopes up about it for league. Gaming on topre switches (IMO) is definitely sub-par.
It really depends on what things you're going to be doing. If you do a lot of coding/gaming, where quick, accurate key presses are common, then you may not enjoy topre. If you're a writer, or do a lot of writing (not code, but it could be emails, GH posts, you name it) I find topre to be the best. Personally, I like to bottom out fairly hard on topre (for the thock). Bottoming out too softly is less satisfying. If you try bottoming out hard, you might befriend the magically thock more quickly...  ;D
People said blue switches weren't that great for gaming either but they were fine for me! I'm not really the person to mash on a button consistently though.

honestly, i'm just underwhelmed with the switches so far. I think i'm just a clack kind of person rather than a thock one, haha.

Whatever floats your boat--all I'm saying is to make sure you sufficiently test 'em out before you forgo topre forever. Typing on them now, I enjoy it soooo much more than that first day/week/month.
main kbs:  87UB (55g)  Custom Filco TKL (62g clears)

WTS JD40, Custom Ergoclear Filco

WTB ROHS Red BBv2 (Topre), OG EK Tri-Color Skull (TOPRE)

Offline Beca

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #136 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 17:01:25 »
@1pq: i've read that a lot, but i''m pretty impatient when it comes to keyboards  :eek:; I honestly kind of like it, but i am  weighing it against how much i paid for the keyboard itself. the keyboard is so cute and tiny but i think that i would prefer a realforce cause i kind of miss my arrow keys, haha.

i would try this out on league, but it's down right now :(

Don't get your hopes up about it for league. Gaming on topre switches (IMO) is definitely sub-par.
It really depends on what things you're going to be doing. If you do a lot of coding/gaming, where quick, accurate key presses are common, then you may not enjoy topre. If you're a writer, or do a lot of writing (not code, but it could be emails, GH posts, you name it) I find topre to be the best. Personally, I like to bottom out fairly hard on topre (for the thock). Bottoming out too softly is less satisfying. If you try bottoming out hard, you might befriend the magically thock more quickly...  ;D
People said blue switches weren't that great for gaming either but they were fine for me! I'm not really the person to mash on a button consistently though.

honestly, i'm just underwhelmed with the switches so far. I think i'm just a clack kind of person rather than a thock one, haha.

Whatever floats your boat--all I'm saying is to make sure you sufficiently test 'em out before you forgo topre forever. Typing on them now, I enjoy it soooo much more than that first day/week/month.
for sure, thanks for the advice!

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #137 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 17:05:11 »
@1pq: i've read that a lot, but i''m pretty impatient when it comes to keyboards  :eek:; I honestly kind of like it, but i am  weighing it against how much i paid for the keyboard itself. the keyboard is so cute and tiny but i think that i would prefer a realforce cause i kind of miss my arrow keys, haha.

i would try this out on league, but it's down right now :(

Don't get your hopes up about it for league. Gaming on topre switches (IMO) is definitely sub-par.
It really depends on what things you're going to be doing. If you do a lot of coding/gaming, where quick, accurate key presses are common, then you may not enjoy topre. If you're a writer, or do a lot of writing (not code, but it could be emails, GH posts, you name it) I find topre to be the best. Personally, I like to bottom out fairly hard on topre (for the thock). Bottoming out too softly is less satisfying. If you try bottoming out hard, you might befriend the magically thock more quickly...  ;D
People said blue switches weren't that great for gaming either but they were fine for me! I'm not really the person to mash on a button consistently though.

honestly, i'm just underwhelmed with the switches so far. I think i'm just a clack kind of person rather than a thock one, haha.

Whatever floats your boat--all I'm saying is to make sure you sufficiently test 'em out before you forgo topre forever. Typing on them now, I enjoy it soooo much more than that first day/week/month.

Topre Fanboi- where fantasy stabs reality to death.


Offline 1pq

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #138 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 17:06:51 »
You misunderstand I criticize the topre fanbois.. general rectangular shape boards, and staggered..

From your countless posts on topre threads, I think most people here already understand or through their searching will come to understand your opinion. It's a very fine opinion. There's nothing wrong with not liking topre/staggered boards. I just wish that you could post all of your love for the ergodox on ergodox threads, instead of derailing every topre thread on this forum with a dogmatic viewpoint that we've all heard from you. That doesn't help anybody.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #139 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 17:08:27 »
You misunderstand I criticize the topre fanbois.. general rectangular shape boards, and staggered..

From your countless posts on topre threads, I think most people here already understand or through their searching will come to understand your opinion. It's a very fine opinion. There's nothing wrong with not liking topre/staggered boards. I just wish that you could post all of your love for the ergodox on ergodox threads, instead of derailing every topre thread on this forum with a dogmatic viewpoint that we've all heard from you. That doesn't help anybody.

Not true... my insurrection is exactly what keeps people THINKING... and not falling for fanboism in the first place.


Offline Photoelectric

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #140 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 17:17:18 »
This thread has been officially taken over by tp4.
tp4 - 1
thread - 0

/thread
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Offline MJ45

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #141 on: Wed, 01 January 2014, 19:33:04 »
You misunderstand I criticize the topre fanbois.. general rectangular shape boards, and staggered..

From your countless posts on topre threads, I think most people here already understand or through their searching will come to understand your opinion. It's a very fine opinion. There's nothing wrong with not liking topre/staggered boards. I just wish that you could post all of your love for the ergodox on ergodox threads, instead of derailing every topre thread on this forum with a dogmatic viewpoint that we've all heard from you. That doesn't help anybody.

Not true... my insurrection is exactly what keeps people THINKING... and not falling for fanboism in the first place.

Show Image

I guess you must be a "Ergo Fanbois" with your own fantasy ideals but for me I'm perfectly happy with my rectangular and staggered Topre world.

Offline 1pq

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #142 on: Wed, 01 January 2014, 19:35:56 »
I wouldn't try arguing with the ergogrinch -- it's pointless and one sided
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Offline Belfong

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #143 on: Wed, 01 January 2014, 19:42:10 »
I was underwhelmed with my HHKB 2 when I first got it. But I make it a point to try it out more so I took it to work and typed on it, almost 8 hours a day for about a month. And I must say the fondness grow on me. I love the thock sound and every time I am back home and typing on the MX Clear or Matias Alps, I often find myself thinking of the HHKB. It does grow on you.

If someone asked me about it, I wouldn't say it is the best keyboard ever - it's just different and if you love keyboards, you just gotta try it for once and find out if it is something you will like, or not.
 

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #144 on: Wed, 01 January 2014, 19:51:17 »
You misunderstand I criticize the topre fanbois.. general rectangular shape boards, and staggered..

From your countless posts on topre threads, I think most people here already understand or through their searching will come to understand your opinion. It's a very fine opinion. There's nothing wrong with not liking topre/staggered boards. I just wish that you could post all of your love for the ergodox on ergodox threads, instead of derailing every topre thread on this forum with a dogmatic viewpoint that we've all heard from you. That doesn't help anybody.

Not true... my insurrection is exactly what keeps people THINKING... and not falling for fanboism in the first place.

Show Image

I guess you must be a "Ergo Fanbois" with your own fantasy ideals but for me I'm perfectly happy with my rectangular and staggered Topre world.

Being Ergonomically inclined is to be a fan of LIFE itself..

Being a Rectangular-staggered enthusiast, is to awash oneself in nostalgia; those who succumb cease to move forward.

It's OK to enjoy and recognize all that went right with the rectangle... 

HOWEVER,, when the discussion is on the subject of CHOICE...   there is only one direction of which is UP.

THAT direction points squarely towards the path of the Edox.

Offline Polymer

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #145 on: Wed, 01 January 2014, 19:53:47 »
People said blue switches weren't that great for gaming either but they were fine for me! I'm not really the person to mash on a button consistently though.

honestly, i'm just underwhelmed with the switches so far. I think i'm just a clack kind of person rather than a thock one, haha.

You've probably read that you should keep it for a month or so before giving up on it...

A lot of people first get Topre and think, wtf?  This isn't much different from my normal RD keyboard..it sucks.  Some people will sell it right away and be done w/ Topre forever.  Most people that have actually given it more time, will start to appreciate it more and more...Some won't and that's fair enough..not all switches are for all people. 

It won't make a difference if you sell it now or 3 weeks from now...definitely give it a fair go...switch back and forth between cherry and topre...If you still don't like it at least you'll know you've given it a chance. 

Offline tuxsavvy

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #146 on: Wed, 01 January 2014, 20:10:15 »
It is pointless to argue tp4tissue with even just logic. There is always alphagrip which tp4tissue would probably care less. Even chorded keyboards. Yeah sure, rectangular boards are dated and you (tp4tissue) are just grilling Topre simply because of the fact that they only came out in rectangular shapes. If there is ergonomic keyboard with Topre such as μTron you would dismiss it as ridiculously dated rectangular shape.

Looking closely at ErgoDox you can clearly see it still has resemblance to rectangular designs. It is not based off some completely different shape.

Even on this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45854.msg1175577#msg1175577 it is blatently clear to see how much you loathe HHKB/Topre in general. Forget it tp4tissue, everyone can clearly see you are just a ErgoDox elitist even though you try to maintain your lopsided sense of "unbiasness". Maybe a new change to a title for you would be appropriate like how HHKB fans are named as such. This was somewhat a neutral thread before it went out of hand and now just another one of your smiting for HHKB hate and extremely biased ErgoDox fandom.

Anyone with a pair of eyes and brain can see what you are trying to imply, there is no need to hide your hatred. I have no qualms with ErgoDox in general but to just see someone rampaging on ErgoDox like as if every other keyboards (_minus_ alpha grip, _minus_ μTron, _minus_ chorded keyboards) like you is evident to see who is extremely biased. Plenty of other threads with keyboard discussions that has rectangular shapes such as old IBM Model M but you had to specifically point and pick out your hatred on Topre and HHKB being as such.

I am done, done arguing with ErgoDox elitist who cannot accept the taste of other people's and to smite ErgoDox like as if he himself is a bible preacher. Yes, call me old school, whatever. I actually don't mind the designs of the HHKB even though it is dated, and looks crap, etc. This world is all about taste, not "my ErgoDox is years ahead of your dinosaur design and that I have no grudges on Topre".
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 January 2014, 20:22:32 by tuxsavvy »
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Offline 1pq

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #147 on: Wed, 01 January 2014, 20:23:00 »
It is pointless to argue tp4tissue with even just logic. There is always alphagrip which tp4tissue would probably care less. Even chorded keyboards. Yeah sure, rectangular boards are dated and you (tp4tissue) are just grilling Topre simply because of the fact that they only came out in rectangular shapes. If there is ergonomic keyboard with Topre such as μTron you would dismiss it as ridiculously dated rectangular shape.

Looking closely at ErgoDox you can clearly see it still has resemblance to rectangular designs. It is not based off some completely different shape.

Even on this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45854.msg1175577#msg1175577 it is blatently clear to see how much you loathe HHKB/Topre in general. Forget it tp4tissue, everyone can clearly see you are just a ErgoDox elitist even though you try to maintain your lopsided sense of "unbiasness". Maybe a new change to a title for you would be appropriate like how HHKB fans are named as such. This was somewhat a neutral thread before it went out of hand and now just another one of your smiting for HHKB hate and extremely biased ErgoDox fandom.

Anyone with a pair of eyes and brain can see what you are trying to imply, there is no need to hide your hatred. I have no qualms with ErgoDox in general but to just see someone rampaging on ErgoDox like as if every other keyboards (_minus_ alpha grip, _minus_ μTron, _minus_ chorded keyboards) like you is evident to see who is extremely biased. Plenty of other threads with keyboard discussions that has rectangular shapes such as old IBM Model M but you had to specifically point and pick out your hatred on Topre and HHKB being as such.

I am done, done arguing with ErgoDox elitist who cannot accept the taste of other people's and to smite ErgoDox like as if he himself was preaching bible.

Dat thread -- reading tp's "yo mama" post -- LMFAO!
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Offline Polymer

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #148 on: Wed, 01 January 2014, 20:24:36 »
At least he has stopped w/ the Topre bashing.  It is probably because his argument used to be because of how it was priced (apparently you had to like it if you paid a lot for it) but with more Topre fans emerging because of the lower cost Topre keyboards (660c specifically) that is no longer a valid argument.

I think the ergodox is a great idea...but at the same time the reasons why I'm not getting it: 

1.  No Topre switches.  Since I'd only get an ergodox for a work type machine where I use Topre and not Cherry, this would suck.
2.  I have no issues w/ the current layout of keyboards.  Thankfully I don't have any issues w/ my hands/fingers/wrists yet so I see no reason to change when I still have to deal w/ normal layouts regardless of having an ergodox at home.

I do recognize the better layout..the better ergonomics for your hands...the position of a lot of keys in the current standard layout is not great..it is just what we have..

Same reason why a lot don't switch to DVORAK or something similar..The layout is better but since you still have to live in a QWERTY world, you have to switch back and forth...and if you're happy w/ your speed on QWERTY, there just isn't a reason to switch...

Offline tuxsavvy

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Re: HHKB Pro 2 Mixed Feelings
« Reply #149 on: Wed, 01 January 2014, 21:07:08 »
Dat thread -- reading tp's "yo mama" post -- LMFAO!

That one seems to be pretty well controlled given the fact there was probably little grounds for tp4tissue to attack on.

At least he has stopped w/ the Topre bashing.  It is probably because his argument used to be because of how it was priced (apparently you had to like it if you paid a lot for it) but with more Topre fans emerging because of the lower cost Topre keyboards (660c specifically) that is no longer a valid argument.

I think the ergodox is a great idea...but at the same time the reasons why I'm not getting it: 

1.  No Topre switches.  Since I'd only get an ergodox for a work type machine where I use Topre and not Cherry, this would suck.
2.  I have no issues w/ the current layout of keyboards.  Thankfully I don't have any issues w/ my hands/fingers/wrists yet so I see no reason to change when I still have to deal w/ normal layouts regardless of having an ergodox at home.

I do recognize the better layout..the better ergonomics for your hands...the position of a lot of keys in the current standard layout is not great..it is just what we have..

Same reason why a lot don't switch to DVORAK or something similar..The layout is better but since you still have to live in a QWERTY world, you have to switch back and forth...and if you're happy w/ your speed on QWERTY, there just isn't a reason to switch...

He hasn't quite completely stopped the Topre bashing, he is now just picking deliberately on HHKB (when there's bazillion other keyboards he could be spamming his hatred on).

I don't quite agree about the pricing structure for a few reasons:
  • Korean customs can cost just as much as HHKB, if not more.
  • ErgoDox kit _alone_ can cost near that but because it was last available as a kit, getting ErgoDox made up so that it is like HHKB (as if one can purchase it in one piece and not bazillion) could cost similar to HHKB.
  • Old school keyboards such as those based on buckling spring or old Cherry MX for instance such SSK, "kishsavers", etc. They can cost as much as HHKB if not more. Broken ones are generally an exception.
  • As if to prove the point, μTron costs virtually double the amount of HHKB.
Then there are those Type Heaven when one wants a budget Topre board.

Surely he is now just nitpicking on HHKB in the very least but in heated/long winded arguments you can clearly see that he still loathes Topre.

ErgoDox for me would have been nice if one could purchase the complete board. I heard it was previously available on previous massdrop but the latest massdrop didn't seem to offer that service anymore. Right now I don't have any soldering equipment and I rather buy things as they were pre-built. It is not like one can never do up a bad ErgoDox which ruins their experience, this is why there is a market for pre-made stuff as well as those who loves to build them from kit. It is beyond me how one loves to make lopsided comparisons (like HHKB vs ErgoDox) when they are completely two different breeds altogether.

If one were serious about ergonomics, they wouldn't be investing in keyboard. They may just do away with voice dictation software. Alas voice dictation is still somewhat naive. Also augmented reality, keyboards that look like they were projected but instead seems to be floating in air. There is no need to worry about space, posture (as much) or even ideal hand positions. Surely a real ergonomic nut would think _any_ computer keyboard is really dated, let's not try and mull much about ErgoDox by then as it will take aim as being a relic device that spanned a few centuries only to be overcome by future technology. Like as said, there is also alpha grip which completely forgoes the design of almost every computer keyboard design currently out there.

That said, there are plenty of ways to "skin a cat". It is not like one cannot put on variable weights or actuations to lessen the burden of typing. Plenty of other designs that are tailored to make typing a less of a hassel exist. ErgoDox is not the only solution.
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 January 2014, 21:12:02 by tuxsavvy »
HHKB Pro JP Type-S | Northgate Omnikey 101 | APC/"Clicker" F-21 (GOG3YL) | Cherry G80-5000 HAMDE

僕の日本語が下手です。我的中文也一樣爛。