Author Topic: How difficult is it to adopt a new layout? (Read 14965 times)

demik · « **on:** Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:55:23 »

Been thinking of stepping out of the qwerty zone into something else, but I have no idea what I'm getting myself into.

How difficult was it for you? How long did it take you to fully adopt it? Is it hard to switch back to qwerty when using a different keyboard/computer?

SpAmRaY · « **Reply #1 on:** Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:57:23 »

why mess up a good thing?

#qwerty4ever

demik · « **Reply #2 on:** Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:57:42 »

Quote from: SpAmRaY on Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:57:23

why mess up a good thing?

#qwerty4ever

150wpm, yo.

SpAmRaY · « **Reply #3 on:** Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:00:07 »

Quote from: demik on Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:57:42

Quote from: SpAmRaY on Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:57:23
why mess up a good thing?

#qwerty4ever

150wpm, yo.

but you better lube your HHKB or the sliders will deform and melt from going so fast yo

demik · « **Reply #4 on:** Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:01:29 »

Quote from: SpAmRaY on Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:00:07

Quote from: demik on Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:57:42
Quote from: SpAmRaY on Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:57:23
why mess up a good thing?

#qwerty4ever

150wpm, yo.

but you better lube your HHKB or the sliders will deform and melt from going so fast yo

worth the e-peen props, yo.

nah, but really, just did the 10fastfingers test and i had a rather pathetic 69wpm

kmiller8 · « **Reply #5 on:** Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:01:37 »

It took me less than a week to learn DVORAK's layout, however I could only type on it at like 15WPM and I'm lazy, so I gave up and went back to QWERTY

SpAmRaY · « **Reply #6 on:** Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:03:44 »

Quote from: demik on Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:01:29

Quote from: SpAmRaY on Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:00:07
Quote from: demik on Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:57:42
Quote from: SpAmRaY on Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:57:23
why mess up a good thing?

#qwerty4ever

150wpm, yo.

but you better lube your HHKB or the sliders will deform and melt from going so fast yo

worth the e-peen props, yo.

nah, but really, just did the 10fastfingers test and i had a rather pathetic 69wpm

why do you even own a mechanical keyboard.....seriously.....

Quote from: kmiller8 on Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:01:37

It took me less than a week to learn DVORAK's layout, however I could only type on it at like 15WPM and I'm lazy, so I gave up and went back to QWERTY

clearly qwerty is the best

Linkbane · « **Reply #7 on:** Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:13:39 »

It took me a bit over a month to learn Dvorak. I heard Colemak is faster to learn.

SpAmRaY · « **Reply #8 on:** Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:16:01 »

Quote from: Linkbane on Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:13:39

It took me a bit over a month to learn Dvorak. I heard Colemak is faster to learn.

but is it faster to type on?

Linkbane · « **Reply #9 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 01:01:47 »

Quote from: SpAmRaY on Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:16:01

Quote from: Linkbane on Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:13:39
It took me a bit over a month to learn Dvorak. I heard Colemak is faster to learn.

but is it faster to type on?

Depends on the person. I think it's more comfortable, but not necessarily faster.

yasuo · « **Reply #10 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 01:22:12 »

Quote from: Linkbane on Tue, 07 January 2014, 01:01:47

Quote from: SpAmRaY on Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:16:01
Quote from: Linkbane on Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:13:39
It took me a bit over a month to learn Dvorak. I heard Colemak is faster to learn.

but is it faster to type on?

Depends on the person. I think it's more comfortable, but not necessarily faster.

Fast or comfortable, Sean Wrona is fast I do not think he's comfortable her typing with freestyle

) not standart typing style

tp4tissue · « **Reply #11 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 02:01:18 »

Quote from: yasuo on Tue, 07 January 2014, 01:22:12

Quote from: Linkbane on Tue, 07 January 2014, 01:01:47
Quote from: SpAmRaY on Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:16:01
Quote from: Linkbane on Mon, 06 January 2014, 23:13:39
It took me a bit over a month to learn Dvorak. I heard Colemak is faster to learn.

but is it faster to type on?

Depends on the person. I think it's more comfortable, but not necessarily faster.
Fast or comfortable, Sean Wrona is fast I do not think he's comfortable her typing with freestyle ) not standart typing style

I tried sean's technique,

I think he used a substandard technique on purpose in his public debut, so people can't copy his Powers..

Try locking ur wrist against the table like that, they start to hurt really fast...

Proword · « **Reply #12 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 03:26:15 »

If you go from a flat keyboard to a tented/split keyboard you should have less difficulty because your different "muscle memories" shouldn't clash. I can still use QWERTY (flat) after nearly 30 years of Maltron. Just need a bit of practice to warm up.

Oobly · « **Reply #13 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 04:41:39 »

Quote from: Proword on Tue, 07 January 2014, 03:26:15

If you go from a flat keyboard to a tented/split keyboard you should have less difficulty because your different "muscle memories" shouldn't clash. I can still use QWERTY (flat) after nearly 30 years of Maltron. Just need a bit of practice to warm up.

This is good, if you are interested in trying a new physical layout at the same time. It keeps the skills separate so they don't affect each other.

On the other hand, Colemak and Dvorak are both decent on a "standard" physical layout and can be learned to decently fast level in around 4 weeks if you practice enough. You'll end up typing more comfortably with either. Which will be faster or more comfortable (between the two) for you depends on your own preferences.

Dvorak is based more on alternation and Colemak on "rolls". Dvorak has a slight preference to the right hand, Colemak is more even between hands. Dvorak stresses the pinkies a little more than Colemak, Colemak stresses the index fingers more than Dvorak or QWERTY (some say it's too much, others like the focus on index fingers). Some characters are in strange places with both layouts, but they're a quantum leap ahead of QWERTY.

Colemak is based on trying not to change too much (keeps the shorctcut keys in place, for instance), and there are intermediate forms of it to learn by stages, but it means your QWERTY skills will suffer while you are learning and possibly afterwards if you don't practice both.

Dvorak is very different and will thus impact your QWERTY skills a little less during the learning period, but perhaps take a little more time to learn properly.

Good luck with the decision making process and learning if you do it. IME it's quite fun and exciting to learn a new layout. There are online lessons fro Dvork and Programmer Dvorak ( http://programmer-dvorak.appspot.com/index.html#lessons ), not sure about Colemak, but there should be some.

demik · « **Reply #14 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:09:18 »

I was thinking of eventually getting an ergodox and trying a new layout with it. Just not sure which would be the easiest to jump into.

SpAmRaY · « **Reply #15 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:11:23 »

Quote from: demik on Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:09:18

I was thinking of eventually getting an ergodox and trying a new layout with it. Just not sure which would be the easiest to jump into.

Do you have big hands? I heard you have to have big hands to benefit from an ergodox.

CPTBadAss · « **Reply #16 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:15:37 »

Quote from: SpAmRaY on Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:11:23

Quote from: demik on Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:09:18
I was thinking of eventually getting an ergodox and trying a new layout with it. Just not sure which would be the easiest to jump into.

Do you have big hands? I heard you have to have big hands to benefit from an ergodox.

Ergodox fit my hands fine and I have relatively small hands.

Demik I think I'd stick with a layout that's relatively similar to QWERTY just because of all the muscle memory. For me, Colemak looks easier to learn versus Dvorak. I've been thinking about trying a new layout as well. I'd want to switch for the novelty and to see if it helped ergonomically. I could care less about my WPM, which is comparable to yours.

demik · « **Reply #17 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:19:53 »

Not big not small

SpAmRaY · « **Reply #18 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:23:58 »

Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:15:37

Quote from: SpAmRaY on Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:11:23
Quote from: demik on Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:09:18
I was thinking of eventually getting an ergodox and trying a new layout with it. Just not sure which would be the easiest to jump into.

Do you have big hands? I heard you have to have big hands to benefit from an ergodox.

Ergodox fit my hands fine and I have relatively small hands.

Demik I think I'd stick with a layout that's relatively similar to QWERTY just because of all the muscle memory. For me, Colemak looks easier to learn versus Dvorak. I've been thinking about trying a new layout as well. I'd want to switch for the novelty and to see if it helped ergonomically. I could care less about my WPM, which is comparable to yours.

well then.....a certain someone is a liar!!! I won't say his name, I don't want to tarnish his impeccable reputation.

unless he meant to say girly hands instead of giant hands....hmmm...maybe auto-correct strikes again

Larken · « **Reply #19 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:25:41 »

Quote from: demik on Tue, 07 January 2014, 09:09:18

I was thinking of eventually getting an ergodox and trying a new layout with it. Just not sure which would be the easiest to jump into.

if you're making the jump to an ergodox, just stay off qwerty, as its basically a different set of memory muscles altogether for a matrix layout. A matrix qwerty layout is different enough from staggered qwerty and since so you're going to have to adapt to something new already, you might as well go for either colemak or dvorak.

I made the choice of staying with qwerty on my ergodox, and was already too used to it to bother making the change to another layout by the time I wanted to try out colemak. I'm not sure if its qwerty limiting my speed, but by then I didn't fancy getting stuck at 20++ wpm for weeks while I got used to a new layout.

demik · « **Reply #20 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 10:48:53 »

Yeah I think that's the route I'll go. Low wpm while I adjust to it isn't a big deal since my job has nothing to do with computers anyway. So it's not like it'll hold me back. And even if I go back to qwerty it would be nice to just be able to know another layout.

vivalarevolución · « **Reply #21 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 11:38:05 »

Quote from: demik on Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:55:23

Been thinking of stepping out of the qwerty zone into something else, but I have no idea what I'm getting myself into.

How difficult was it for you? How long did it take you to fully adopt it? Is it hard to switch back to qwerty when using a different keyboard/computer?

I made a cold turkey switch the Maltron layout. It took me a few months to make the full switch, but I did not try that hard to get there fast. I found it somewhat difficult and painful at first, but once I got rolling, things just starting going smoothly. I committed to it, and did not look back. Just like I did with my mail-order bride.

I really avoid QWERTY for the most part. I have not tried to go extended periods on QWERTY, so I cannot say for sure if I have much difficulty switching back to QWERTY. I can say with full confidence that QWERTY seems like a drunk monkey designed the layout after becoming proficient on an alternative layout (i know the story behind QWERTY so no explanation needed).

Do it. You really have nothing to lose except a few weeks or months of fumbling around on the layout until you are smooth as butter briefly heated in the microwave.

Also, it's less risky if your livelihood does not depend on your typing speed.

Oobly · « **Reply #22 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 12:26:03 »

For ErgoDox, Maltron layout is very good. You have the thumb keys so you can put 'E' there as well as modifiers

It's a very well-researched and designed layout.

Linkbane · « **Reply #23 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 12:26:37 »

Quote from: prdlm2009 on Tue, 07 January 2014, 11:38:05

Quote from: demik on Mon, 06 January 2014, 22:55:23
Been thinking of stepping out of the qwerty zone into something else, but I have no idea what I'm getting myself into.

How difficult was it for you? How long did it take you to fully adopt it? Is it hard to switch back to qwerty when using a different keyboard/computer?

I made a cold turkey switch the Maltron layout. It took me a few months to make the full switch, but I did not try that hard to get there fast. I found it somewhat difficult and painful at first, but once I got rolling, things just starting going smoothly. I committed to it, and did not look back. Just like I did with my mail-order bride.

I really avoid QWERTY for the most part. I have not tried to go extended periods on QWERTY, so I cannot say for sure if I have much difficulty switching back to QWERTY. I can say with full confidence that QWERTY seems like a drunk monkey designed the layout after becoming proficient on an alternative layout (i know the story behind QWERTY so no explanation needed).

Do it. You really have nothing to lose except a few weeks or months of fumbling around on the layout until you are smooth as butter briefly heated in the microwave.

Also, it's less risky if your livelihood does not depend on your typing speed.

It was a while ago, but the butter in the microwave made me think of a post from tp a few months ago, haha.
Either way you'll probably be happy with the layout. I tried Colemak for a day, I really hated the letter placement because it's so different from Dvorak (really dislike the RST. S is a very common letter so I definitely prefer it on my left pinkie, where it's essentially impossible to mess up.

shaaniqbal · « **Reply #24 on:** Tue, 07 January 2014, 12:38:39 »

If you want to try a new layout, I suggest T9-QWERTY. If you just want to improve your speed on your current layout, I suggest shorthand.

SonOfSonOfSpock · « **Reply #25 on:** Wed, 08 January 2014, 13:16:21 »

Does anybody know much about switching to Workman? I like the ideas behind the layout, but it seems like it doesn't have as much of a following as Colemak.

angelic_sedition · « **Reply #26 on:** Wed, 08 January 2014, 13:25:21 »

Quote from: demik on Tue, 07 January 2014, 10:48:53

Yeah I think that's the route I'll go. Low wpm while I adjust to it isn't a big deal since my job has nothing to do with computers anyway. So it's not like it'll hold me back. And even if I go back to qwerty it would be nice to just be able to know another layout.

If it's frustrating, you might want to try switching slowly instead of doing a cold turkey switch (something like tarmak for example). It's what I did, and it takes longer, but you still maintain a decent speed. It took me about two weeks to make all the letter changes to colemak and get pretty comfortable with it, but it took me a couple of months to get fully back up to my previous speed. It really varies depending on the person though.

On the other hand, I really wouldn't recommend switching just for speed. Maybe you'll pick up some speed from having to relearn to type (possibly with better habits), but you're not going to see some massive increase in speed just from switching to an alternate layout. I think practice is going to make the difference regardless of whether or not you switch.

Depending on what layout you choose, it will effect your qwerty speed if you stop using qwerty. I followed the suggestion that you type qwerty while looking down and the other layout while looking at the screen normally. I hardly ever use qwerty, but if I have to I still can type at a decent enough rate by looking downwards. I'ts really strange though because I can't type colemak on my phone. Qwerty works better with swiping anyway though. Distinguishing them based on matrix vs staggered might be more effective like suggested.

Ideally, you'll never have to use qwerty. If you have to use a computer that isn't yours that you can't use something like PKL with, you shouldn't have a problem if you get an ergodox.

Quote from: shaaniqbal on Tue, 07 January 2014, 12:38:39

If you want to try a new layout, I suggest T9-QWERTY. If you just want to improve your speed on your current layout, I suggest shorthand.

Shaaniqbal's idea to use text expansion for shorthand for common words will probably increase your speed more quickly and easily than switching to another layout would.

Quote from: SonOfSonOfSpock on Wed, 08 January 2014, 13:16:21

Does anybody know much about switching to Workman? I like the ideas behind the layout, but it seems like it doesn't have as much of a following as Colemak.

I think Linkbane used to use Workman. I looked into it, but I didn't find it particularly appealing. The numbers for how much effort specific keys take are pretty subjective, but if you agree with them, you might like it.

demik · « **Reply #27 on:** Wed, 08 January 2014, 14:51:33 »

I like the cold turkey approach. I know me and if I don't go all in ill continue to put it off and head back to my safe zone that is qwerty.

Linkbane · « **Reply #28 on:** Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:12:51 »

Quote from: angelic_sedition on Wed, 08 January 2014, 13:25:21

Quote from: SonOfSonOfSpock on Wed, 08 January 2014, 13:16:21
Does anybody know much about switching to Workman? I like the ideas behind the layout, but it seems like it doesn't have as much of a following as Colemak.
I think Linkbane used to use Workman. I looked into it, but I didn't find it particularly appealing. The numbers for how much effort specific keys take are pretty subjective, but if you agree with them, you might like it.

I've never used Workman. Just straight from QWERTY into Dvorak.

angelic_sedition · « **Reply #29 on:** Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:36:34 »

Quote from: Linkbane on Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:12:51

I've never used Workman. Just straight from QWERTY into Dvorak.

Oops. I'm not sure where I got that idea from then.

daerid · « **Reply #30 on:** Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:38:11 »

I've been super interested in an alternative layout, but my biggest concern is writing code. I do that for a living, so it's a daunting prospect. Workman looks particularly interesting as it was designed by a programmer. @demik, I'd be interested in hearing what layout you switched to and what your experience doing so was like.

angelic_sedition · « **Reply #31 on:** Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:52:15 »

Quote from: daerid on Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:38:11

I've been super interested in an alternative layout, but my biggest concern is writing code. I do that for a living, so it's a daunting prospect. Workman looks particularly interesting as it was designed by a programmer. @demik, I'd be interested in hearing what layout you switched to and what your experience doing so was like.

If you're not necessarily switching around or remapping symbols just for the layout change, then what is the specific concern? Or is the concern just a loss of typing speed?

Linkbane · « **Reply #32 on:** Wed, 08 January 2014, 17:29:11 »

Quote from: angelic_sedition on Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:36:34

Quote from: Linkbane on Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:12:51
I've never used Workman. Just straight from QWERTY into Dvorak.

Oops. I'm not sure where I got that idea from then.

I think I commented and someone decided to use some Workman statistics on me. Perhaps that was it.

Quote from: daerid on Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:38:11

I've been super interested in an alternative layout, but my biggest concern is writing code. I do that for a living, so it's a daunting prospect. Workman looks particularly interesting as it was designed by a programmer. @demik, I'd be interested in hearing what layout you switched to and what your experience doing so was like.

You might also find interest in Programmer Dvorak; the symbols should be more intelligently placed.

demik · « **Reply #33 on:** Thu, 09 January 2014, 00:23:10 »

Quote

@demik, I'd be interested in hearing what layout you switched to and what your experience doing so was like.

i'll let you know. aside from a switching to a new layout, i also want to learn how to code (well, the basics of it). i think that'll be my challenge, to dive into both

Oobly · « **Reply #34 on:** Thu, 09 January 2014, 03:16:35 »

Quote from: daerid on Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:38:11

I've been super interested in an alternative layout, but my biggest concern is writing code. I do that for a living, so it's a daunting prospect. Workman looks particularly interesting as it was designed by a programmer. @demik, I'd be interested in hearing what layout you switched to and what your experience doing so was like.

One of the main problems with the common alternative layouts is that they are designed and optimised for standard staggered physical boards, instead of the better vertical stagger layout like ErgoDox.

Best I could find was AdNW BU-Teck, but it's optimised for German. So I modified it for English and programming. I didn't know about the Maltron layout at that stage, otherwise I would have given it a serious look.

I suggest trying Maltron for use with your 'Dox's, but I'll post my layout here too, in case you're interested:

Layer 1:
b u , . q p c l m f
h i e a o d t r n s
k y ' - x j g w v z

Layer 1 Shifted:
B U < > Q P C L M F
H I E A O D T R N S
K Y " _ X J G W V Z

Layer 2 ("_" means no symbol assigned, can put anything there):
| * < > ^ _ [ ] % &
\ ! ( ) + = { } ? /
_@# ; _ _ : $ ~ _

Layer 2 Shifted:
F1 F2 F3 F4 PrntScr / 7 8 9 -
F5 F6 F7 F8 ScrLock * 4 5 6 +
F9 F10 F11 F12 Pause Insert 1 2 3 Enter

It works quite well and I am happy with it overall. Also scores well in all the analysers I have tried, but I don't know how it compares to Malt layout.

I am still gaining confidence and speed on it, but kept coding at work on a normal board, so I have separated the skills (qwerty on a staggered board, my layout on my ergo board). My qwerty speed hasn't been affected. I'm almost ready to start using my ergo board for coding now.

yasuo · « **Reply #35 on:** Thu, 09 January 2014, 03:21:37 »

Nice layers Oobly

tufty · « **Reply #36 on:** Thu, 09 January 2014, 04:35:44 »

Quote from: yasuo on Thu, 09 January 2014, 03:21:37

Nice layers Oobly

Indeed.

Probably wouldn't work for me, I do scheme / lisp most of the time, so the symbol assignments are just plain b0rked for me. I'd need open / close brackets, dash and semicolon on a really easy to hit layer (preferably the first one).

I'm currently working on something that's a kind of bastard hybrid between oobly's board (but with keywells rather than being flat for the "main" keys) and the velotype board. Yeah, that's kinda ambitious...

shaaniqbal · « **Reply #37 on:** Thu, 09 January 2014, 11:44:20 »

Quote from: angelic_sedition on Wed, 08 January 2014, 13:25:21

Quote from: shaaniqbal on Tue, 07 January 2014, 12:38:39
If you want to try a new layout, I suggest T9-QWERTY. If you just want to improve your speed on your current layout, I suggest shorthand.
Shaaniqbal's idea to use text expansion for shorthand for common words will probably increase your speed more quickly and easily than switching to another layout would.

It wasn't my own idea. Proword deserves the credit! But it definitely works, if you spend time practicing. The younger the age that people learn shorthand from, the better as it will be more ingrained. But there's no age you can't start at.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #38 on:** Thu, 09 January 2014, 23:54:05 »

Quote from: Oobly on Thu, 09 January 2014, 03:16:35

Quote from: daerid on Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:38:11
I've been super interested in an alternative layout, but my biggest concern is writing code. I do that for a living, so it's a daunting prospect. Workman looks particularly interesting as it was designed by a programmer. @demik, I'd be interested in hearing what layout you switched to and what your experience doing so was like.

One of the main problems with the common alternative layouts is that they are designed and optimised for standard staggered physical boards, instead of the better vertical stagger layout like ErgoDox.

Best I could find was AdNW BU-Teck, but it's optimised for German. So I modified it for English and programming. I didn't know about the Maltron layout at that stage, otherwise I would have given it a serious look.

I suggest trying Maltron for use with your 'Dox's, but I'll post my layout here too, in case you're interested:

Layer 1:
b u , . q p c l m f
h i e a o d t r n s
k y ' - x j g w v z

Layer 1 Shifted:
B U < > Q P C L M F
H I E A O D T R N S
K Y " _ X J G W V Z

Layer 2 ("_" means no symbol assigned, can put anything there):
| * < > ^ _ [ ] % &
\ ! ( ) + = { } ? /
_@# ; _ _ : $ ~ _

Layer 2 Shifted:
F1 F2 F3 F4 PrntScr / 7 8 9 -
F5 F6 F7 F8 ScrLock * 4 5 6 +
F9 F10 F11 F12 Pause Insert 1 2 3 Enter

It works quite well and I am happy with it overall. Also scores well in all the analysers I have tried, but I don't know how it compares to Malt layout.

I am still gaining confidence and speed on it, but kept coding at work on a normal board, so I have separated the skills (qwerty on a staggered board, my layout on my ergo board). My qwerty speed hasn't been affected. I'm almost ready to start using my ergo board for coding now.

the center row is suboptimal.. because while it "is" the "home-row".. home row is not resting position for one's hands.

If you relax your fingers with the index finger on f and j, the two home keys on qwerty..

your middle and ring finger actually rests on 'w ' e' 'i ' o ' not sd-kl....

The resting HOME ROW is the biggest common mistake in teaching people to type...

Oobly · « **Reply #39 on:** Fri, 10 January 2014, 03:11:06 »

Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 09 January 2014, 23:54:05

Quote from: Oobly on Thu, 09 January 2014, 03:16:35
Quote from: daerid on Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:38:11
I've been super interested in an alternative layout, but my biggest concern is writing code. I do that for a living, so it's a daunting prospect. Workman looks particularly interesting as it was designed by a programmer. @demik, I'd be interested in hearing what layout you switched to and what your experience doing so was like.

One of the main problems with the common alternative layouts is that they are designed and optimised for standard staggered physical boards, instead of the better vertical stagger layout like ErgoDox.

Best I could find was AdNW BU-Teck, but it's optimised for German. So I modified it for English and programming. I didn't know about the Maltron layout at that stage, otherwise I would have given it a serious look.

I suggest trying Maltron for use with your 'Dox's, but I'll post my layout here too, in case you're interested:

Layer 1:
b u , . q p c l m f
h i e a o d t r n s
k y ' - x j g w v z

Layer 1 Shifted:
B U < > Q P C L M F
H I E A O D T R N S
K Y " _ X J G W V Z

Layer 2 ("_" means no symbol assigned, can put anything there):
| * < > ^ _ [ ] % &
\ ! ( ) + = { } ? /
_@# ; _ _ : $ ~ _

Layer 2 Shifted:
F1 F2 F3 F4 PrntScr / 7 8 9 -
F5 F6 F7 F8 ScrLock * 4 5 6 +
F9 F10 F11 F12 Pause Insert 1 2 3 Enter

It works quite well and I am happy with it overall. Also scores well in all the analysers I have tried, but I don't know how it compares to Malt layout.

I am still gaining confidence and speed on it, but kept coding at work on a normal board, so I have separated the skills (qwerty on a staggered board, my layout on my ergo board). My qwerty speed hasn't been affected. I'm almost ready to start using my ergo board for coding now.

the center row is suboptimal.. because while it "is" the "home-row".. home row is not resting position for one's hands.

If you relax your fingers with the index finger on f and j, the two home keys on qwerty..

your middle and ring finger actually rests on 'w ' e' 'i ' o ' not sd-kl....

The resting HOME ROW is the biggest common mistake in teaching people to type...

You do know this is for a vertically staggered board, right? You did actually read the whole post, right?

Kamen Rider Blade · « **Reply #40 on:** Sat, 11 January 2014, 04:34:36 »

For me, I'm not willing to learn a new layout, so QWERTY for me.

That's why I still use a MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000

tufty · « **Reply #41 on:** Sat, 11 January 2014, 06:21:17 »

Quote from: Kamen Rider Blade on Sat, 11 January 2014, 04:34:36

For me, I'm not willing to learn a new layout, so QWERTY for me.

That's why I still use a MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000

As Oobly (and anyone else alternating between a "standard" staggered board, using QWERTY or otherwise) will tell you, once you've made the switch, it's relatively easy to swap between layouts. The more "different" the actual key layout, the easier it becomes. I personally switch between UK-QWERTY, US-QWERTY, dvorak and FR-AZERTY on "stock" staggered boards, and I'm busy learning a totally different layout on a vertically-staggered, 2-part ergo board of my own design (handles both single key presses and chording for the major English phonemes). It's *easy* to alternate, probably the hardest is going to dvorak on a qwerty or azerty capped board. I actually alternate between 3 "standard" boards - a UK "fat return" Apple M0116, a US layout Matias Tactile Pro, an Apple azerty chicklet board, and my "custom".

Not truly comfortable with the custom yet, but it's getting there.

Give it a try. The initial learning curve is steep, but after a week or two you'll be comfortable.

Simon

davkol · « **Reply #42 on:** Sat, 11 January 2014, 10:27:49 »

I don't know how long it took me to get fluent at either touch typing, or Colemak. I didn't care. I didn't practice or anything. I just went cold turkey and that was it. I know that after one month with Colemak, I could take notes in classes and it wasn't more straining than handwriting (which has always been a kind of an issue for me though).

OTOH, it took me only 30 minutes to switch from staggered to grid layout (typematrix) and not even that, when I started to use ErgoDox or Kinesis Advantage. Now, I can switch physical layouts with barely any problems.

demik · « **Reply #43 on:** Sat, 11 January 2014, 15:43:14 »

Quote from: Kamen Rider Blade on Sat, 11 January 2014, 04:34:36

For me, I'm not willing to learn a new layout, so QWERTY for me.

That's why I still use a MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000

Okay?

vivalarevolución · « **Reply #44 on:** Sat, 11 January 2014, 21:56:13 »

One thing about Maltron is the z and l should be switched, in my opinion the z should be a pinky key, not a ring finger key. Just something to consider.

Dubsgalore · « **Reply #45 on:** Sat, 11 January 2014, 22:00:10 »

cant get out of qwerty...ansi...even hhkb would be too much of a change

* Dubsgalore hates change

tp4tissue · « **Reply #46 on:** Sat, 11 January 2014, 22:21:45 »

Quote from: Oobly on Fri, 10 January 2014, 03:11:06

Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 09 January 2014, 23:54:05
Quote from: Oobly on Thu, 09 January 2014, 03:16:35
Quote from: daerid on Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:38:11
I've been super interested in an alternative layout, but my biggest concern is writing code. I do that for a living, so it's a daunting prospect. Workman looks particularly interesting as it was designed by a programmer. @demik, I'd be interested in hearing what layout you switched to and what your experience doing so was like.

One of the main problems with the common alternative layouts is that they are designed and optimised for standard staggered physical boards, instead of the better vertical stagger layout like ErgoDox.

Best I could find was AdNW BU-Teck, but it's optimised for German. So I modified it for English and programming. I didn't know about the Maltron layout at that stage, otherwise I would have given it a serious look.

I suggest trying Maltron for use with your 'Dox's, but I'll post my layout here too, in case you're interested:

Layer 1:
b u , . q p c l m f
h i e a o d t r n s
k y ' - x j g w v z

Layer 1 Shifted:
B U < > Q P C L M F
H I E A O D T R N S
K Y " _ X J G W V Z

Layer 2 ("_" means no symbol assigned, can put anything there):
| * < > ^ _ [ ] % &
\ ! ( ) + = { } ? /
_@# ; _ _ : $ ~ _

Layer 2 Shifted:
F1 F2 F3 F4 PrntScr / 7 8 9 -
F5 F6 F7 F8 ScrLock * 4 5 6 +
F9 F10 F11 F12 Pause Insert 1 2 3 Enter

It works quite well and I am happy with it overall. Also scores well in all the analysers I have tried, but I don't know how it compares to Malt layout.

I am still gaining confidence and speed on it, but kept coding at work on a normal board, so I have separated the skills (qwerty on a staggered board, my layout on my ergo board). My qwerty speed hasn't been affected. I'm almost ready to start using my ergo board for coding now.

the center row is suboptimal.. because while it "is" the "home-row".. home row is not resting position for one's hands.

If you relax your fingers with the index finger on f and j, the two home keys on qwerty..

your middle and ring finger actually rests on 'w ' e' 'i ' o ' not sd-kl....

The resting HOME ROW is the biggest common mistake in teaching people to type...

You do know this is for a vertically staggered board, right? You did actually read the whole post, right?

I do know what you're referring to..

But staggered and vertical staggered is identical in terms of finger resting position, because your hand is the same, and the shift on the top row is only .20x key length.

Oobly · « **Reply #47 on:** Sun, 12 January 2014, 04:05:58 »

Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 11 January 2014, 22:21:45

I do know what you're referring to..

But staggered and vertical staggered is identical in terms of finger resting position, because your hand is the same, and the shift on the top row is only .20x key length.

Not on my board it isn't. My fingers rest naturally on the home row keys, that's how I designed it. I was surprised at how much the pinkie keys need to be lowered. I can reach "B" and "F" without causing twist. The Ergodox has quite mild stagger in comparison, but it's still an improvement and SHOULD allow proper home row use, although you'll probably still get a little twist with the upper pinkie keys.

Quote from: prdlm2009 on Sat, 11 January 2014, 21:56:13

One thing about Maltron is the z and l should be switched, in my opinion the z should be a pinky key, not a ring finger key. Just something to consider.

I agree. One of my biggest gripes about Dvorak is the placement of "L" on a pinkie, particularly an upper pinkie key which requires twist to press. I suspect that switching them may mess a little with digrams and trigrams that include "O", but it would take a lot of analysis to prove one way or the other. Even without the switch it's a very good layout, with good reasoning behind most of the letter placements.

You can get a basic idea of layout efficiency using this: http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main

However, it doesn't take all factors into consideration and prioritises some over others which may not be pertinent to YOUR case, since everyone has different priorities.

I "type without looking" (and with fingers on the home row) on my ergo board with the layout I posted and type with looking on qwerty, with fingers all over the place. I'm still a bit faster on qwerty, but catching up slowly with my ergo board. It feels a LOT nicer to type on, despite the frustration over not being able to type as fast yet. I've been typing on qwerty for 30 years or so, so it's understandable.

hoggy · « **Reply #48 on:** Sun, 12 January 2014, 08:45:11 »

Quote from: demik on Sat, 11 January 2014, 15:43:14

Quote from: Kamen Rider Blade on Sat, 11 January 2014, 04:34:36
For me, I'm not willing to learn a new layout, so QWERTY for me.

That's why I still use a MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000
Okay?

To each their own I guess.

Demik, I wish you luck in changing layouts - it's awkward but since qwerty is an abomination you'll be glad you did it.

Have fun with the coding too. I couldn't imagine life without coding now.

Linkbane · « **Reply #49 on:** Sun, 12 January 2014, 11:34:04 »

Quote from: Oobly on Sun, 12 January 2014, 04:05:58

I agree. One of my biggest gripes about Dvorak is the placement of "L" on a pinkie, particularly an upper pinkie key which requires twist to press. I suspect that switching them may mess a little with digrams and trigrams that include "O", but it would take a lot of analysis to prove one way or the other. Even without the switch it's a very good layout, with good reasoning behind most of the letter placements.

You're messing with us, right Oobly? Perhaps your resting position is different from mine, but the only key that I find myself having to twist my hand for is Z and Q. I personally think that having a key on the pinkie makes more sense, because it's only a single key and it's literally impossible to miss the L key if it's the only thing that you pinkie is naturally resting on.

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Author Topic: How difficult is it to adopt a new layout? (Read 14965 times)