CES News: Matias debuts pro-grade Ergonomic Mechanical Keyboard at CES

[mrmillsy]

Regarding gaming, I don't want a keyboard which will move independently of its component parts.  I don't want to have to look when I quickly shift my hand from wasd+mouse to keyboard to type "pwned n00b" or "gank mid dd rune incoming".  So a fixed plate keyboard will be significantly better every time.

[Findecanor]

I still have not read: Will there be an ISO version, and when will it be available for preorder?

I think I could adjust if the right Ctrl could be remapped to the key beside left Shift on ISO, but real ISO would be preferable.

[Linkbane]

It annoys me that you'd say 'best layout', but it's a good looking ergo board nonetheless.

Well, thinking it through logically...

If we thought there was a better layout, don't you think we'd have chosen that one?

Absolutely not. This is not an ergonomic layout, only insofar as the board can be separated. Don't kid yourselves, please, the Kinesis, Dox, and Maltron are real ergonomic layouts, not just a half-baked staggered.

[Matias]

It annoys me that you'd say 'best layout', but it's a good looking ergo board nonetheless.

Well, thinking it through logically...

If we thought there was a better layout, don't you think we'd have chosen that one?

Absolutely not. This is not an ergonomic layout, only insofar as the board can be separated. Don't kid yourselves, please, the Kinesis, Dox, and Maltron are real ergonomic layouts, not just a half-baked staggered.

It depends on how far you wanna go... There's always a trade-off between how ergonomic something is vs. how long the learning curve is. We opted for a shorter learning curve.

Also, there's a strong case to be made for the Kinesis Advantage & Maltron NOT being ergonomic. Rib cages come in various shapes and sizes, yet those keyboards impose a fixed separation distance on you — nothing ergonomic about that.

Even the ErgoDox is open to criticism... It imposes a fixed position for the Space key (the most important key!). If your hand is too big or too small, it's completely unusable — like putting a size 10 or size 5 foot in a size 8 shoe.

Ergonomic keyboards are a very personal choice. If you find one you're happy with, be thankful, but it's misguided to think that it's "the one true egonomic keyboard" just because it fits your physique and workflow preferences.

[Linkbane]

It annoys me that you'd say 'best layout', but it's a good looking ergo board nonetheless.

Well, thinking it through logically...

If we thought there was a better layout, don't you think we'd have chosen that one?

Absolutely not. This is not an ergonomic layout, only insofar as the board can be separated. Don't kid yourselves, please, the Kinesis, Dox, and Maltron are real ergonomic layouts, not just a half-baked staggered.

It depends on how far you wanna go... There's always a trade-off between how ergonomic something is vs. how long the learning curve is. We opted for a shorter learning curve.

Also, there's a strong case to be made for the Kinesis Advantage & Maltron NOT being ergonomic. Rib cages come in various shapes and sizes, yet those keyboards impose a fixed separation distance on you — nothing ergonomic about that.

Even the ErgoDox is open to criticism... It imposes a fixed position for the Space key (the most important key!). If your hand is too big or too small, it's completely unusable — like putting a size 10 or size 5 foot in a size 8 shoe.

Ergonomic keyboards are a very personal choice. If you find one you're happy with, be thankful, but it's misguided to think that it's "the one true egonomic keyboard" just because it fits your physique and workflow preferences.

It's certainly a personal choice, and, having admitted that, it would seem nonsensical for you to say that yours was the 'best' layout. Also, there is a considerably amount of research into keywells, and the effect they have on movement of the fingers is both immediate and massive. This design doesn't reduce finger travel by nearly as much, but perhaps it is 'better' for people who happen to want to move their fingers more?

Hand size could be an issue. But it's not much of one considering that almost everyone has hands large enough to use any of the aforementioned ergonomic keyboards, so the argument of not fitting enough people seems rather moot when you consider that it helps as many people and to a greater extent.

[SpAmRaY]

It annoys me that you'd say 'best layout', but it's a good looking ergo board nonetheless.

Well, thinking it through logically...

If we thought there was a better layout, don't you think we'd have chosen that one?

Absolutely not. This is not an ergonomic layout, only insofar as the board can be separated. Don't kid yourselves, please, the Kinesis, Dox, and Maltron are real ergonomic layouts, not just a half-baked staggered.

It depends on how far you wanna go... There's always a trade-off between how ergonomic something is vs. how long the learning curve is. We opted for a shorter learning curve.

Also, there's a strong case to be made for the Kinesis Advantage & Maltron NOT being ergonomic. Rib cages come in various shapes and sizes, yet those keyboards impose a fixed separation distance on you — nothing ergonomic about that.

Even the ErgoDox is open to criticism... It imposes a fixed position for the Space key (the most important key!). If your hand is too big or too small, it's completely unusable — like putting a size 10 or size 5 foot in a size 8 shoe.

Ergonomic keyboards are a very personal choice. If you find one you're happy with, be thankful, but it's misguided to think that it's "the one true egonomic keyboard" just because it fits your physique and workflow preferences.

It's certainly a personal choice, and, having admitted that, it would seem nonsensical for you to say that yours was the 'best' layout. Also, there is a considerably amount of research into keywells, and the effect they have on movement of the fingers is both immediate and massive. This design doesn't reduce finger travel by nearly as much, but perhaps it is 'better' for people who happen to want to move their fingers more?

Hand size could be an issue. But it's not much of one considering that almost everyone has hands large enough to use any of the aforementioned ergonomic keyboards, so the argument of not fitting enough people seems rather moot when you consider that it helps as many people and to a greater extent.

Matias, obviously your research staff deserves to be fired, they have failed the ergonomic keyboard gods. And you need to hire this guy already, he obviously knows more than you do.

[davkol]

It depends on how far you wanna go... There's always a trade-off between how ergonomic something is vs. how long the learning curve is. We opted for a shorter learning curve.

Speaking of the learning curve, people managed to adjust to the Maltron physical layout in about 10 hours, or at least Malt's 1977 paper reads so.

OTOH people are afraid of changes and I have absolutely no doubt that sticking with staggered layout and therefore maintaining status quo is a marketing move. Not a big deal, especially if you can use your current tooling, but claims about being "the best"... well, whatever... I've seen even more daring marketing.

[tp4tissue]

It depends on how far you wanna go... There's always a trade-off between how ergonomic something is vs. how long the learning curve is. We opted for a shorter learning curve.

Speaking of the learning curve, people managed to adjust to the Maltron physical layout in about 10 hours, or at least Malt's 1977 paper reads so.

OTOH people are afraid of changes and I have absolutely no doubt that sticking with staggered layout and therefore maintaining status quo is a marketing move. Not a big deal, especially if you can use your current tooling, but claims about being "the best"... well, whatever... I've seen even more daring marketing.

It can't be marketing..  I don't even think most people would notice column layout vs staggered when they go buy a keyboard..

Like they'll stare at a picture.. and probably not notice.. until they get their hands on it..

It's not obvious... and ultimately, it doesn't matter..

also, it's not obvious if your hand will fit on the ergodox.. because when I first looked at it and made a print out.. I didn't think it fit my hand at all..

But when the keyboard is "tented"... it's very different...


When I first put hands on my ergodox,  I got up to 100wpm right away... then when I switched my layout up a bit more, moved 3 different keys... my wpm only dropped to 70wpm for a few hours..

I got back to 100 within the next day.. then in a week or so i can burst my old speed 120-130, over the course of a month I pretty much have everything felt out.

[Matias]

It depends on how far you wanna go... There's always a trade-off between how ergonomic something is vs. how long the learning curve is. We opted for a shorter learning curve.

Speaking of the learning curve, people managed to adjust to the Maltron physical layout in about 10 hours, or at least Malt's 1977 paper reads so.

It's been ages since I read that paper, but I recall that she also had a new keyboard layout that was different from QWERTY and Dvorak.

[Matias]

I still have not read: Will there be an ISO version, and when will it be available for preorder?

I think I could adjust if the right Ctrl could be remapped to the key beside left Shift on ISO, but real ISO would be preferable.

We have nothing to announce at the moment, but there's a good chance you'll see one.

[davkol]

It depends on how far you wanna go... There's always a trade-off between how ergonomic something is vs. how long the learning curve is. We opted for a shorter learning curve.

Speaking of the learning curve, people managed to adjust to the Maltron physical layout in about 10 hours, or at least Malt's 1977 paper reads so.

It's been ages since I read that paper, but I recall that she also had a new keyboard layout that was different from QWERTY and Dvorak.

Yup, Maltron keyboards usually have hardwired two layouts: QWERTY and Maltron. There wasn't enough data on learning the latter at the time of presenting that paper; anyway, there was "software" and physical layout mentioned separately (for the record, it's on the last page).

[Belfong]

Well, Matias is in this for business. I guess if you are only selling keyboards as your main business, you gotta make something as main stream as possible. And remember their market are Apple users and those consumers who frequent big retails like Best Buy and such. I would imagine that these consumer will be surprised to see a Ergonomics keyboard that they could understand and use the instant they saw it. And with the $200 price range, it is pretty affordable too. Truth be told, even though I don't rest my ten fingers on the board while typing (read: I poke with my tall and middle fingers), I find these Ergo Pro pretty enticing myself. And if it sells tons of keyboards and do help people reduce RSI, more power to Matias, isn't it?

Of course this is GH and it is a keyboard enthusiasts forum and people do get critical over the design of the keyboard - much like how Apple stuff is often loathed at some purist forums, but hey, it's business.

[yasuo]

I think pure business//market,people are still afraid to change the usually
though JUST symmetrical with left hand reverse i think it most simple of all ergo design
symmetrical staggering no need adaption not like ergo dox/maltron/kinesis adv.etc

[Polymer]

People are getting way too caught up in "the best".

On the site it says

"We also think it has the best layout of all the ergonomic keyboards so far."

That is their opinion and how they feel.  You can disagree with them but that doesn't mean that isn't their opinion. 

They also call their switches "the best"....

Personally I think it is a pretty good implementation..there are a few things I wish they changed but overall it is pretty good...It'll also appeal to a LOT more people than a Maltron and Kinesis which I think is the point. 

It is very similar to an Ergodox..and like tp4 said, staggered won't be a huge difference...I think the Ergodox has a bit more flexibility but it also isn't something easily available to most. 

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

Anybody who claims Matias didn't go far enough is not being fair, it is not a flip of the switch to adjust to a new keyboard layout. Their design has the easiest learning curve I've seen. At least that's what my experience with a Kinesis Freestyle tells me. I'm a bit biased since I'm pretty sure Id have one if they were available.

What's the reason people are complaining so much? Did he put sugar in your gas tank?

[jacobolus]

I think it looks great: take the basic idea of the Kinesis Freestyle, and then just execute much better [more thoughtful layout, much more solid build quality, much nicer switches and keycaps, etc.]. It’s not my dream keyboard, but I think it’ll be a winner, and wouldn’t hesitate to recommend it to anyone used to standard ANSI keyboards asking about something more ergonomic or pleasant to type on. Looks like the learning curve is basically zero.

That said, Matias, if you’re setting up some possible switchable settings [like ctrl/caps swap, etc.] I definitely recommend looking into the ability to make one of the spacebars work as backwards delete. Getting the delete key directly under the hands is one of the biggest and easiest ergonomic improvements to make, and doesn’t require much practice to learn.

Alternately, using one of the thumb keys for shift, and using the shift keys for something else, such as delete or Fn, is also quite nice. [But probably takes more time to learn]

[Matias]

That said, Matias, if you’re setting up some possible switchable settings [like ctrl/caps swap, etc.] I definitely recommend looking into the ability to make one of the spacebars work as backwards delete. Getting the delete key directly under the hands is one of the biggest and easiest ergonomic improvements to make, and doesn’t require much practice to learn.

Alternately, using one of the thumb keys for shift, and using the shift keys for something else, such as delete or Fn, is also quite nice. [But probably takes more time to learn]

Okay, I'm going to see what we can do as far as switchable settings.  Please chime in here as to what you want.  At the moment we have...

1)  Switchable Caps Lock/Ctrl
2)  Switchable PC/Mac
3)  Switchable L-Spacebar/Backspace

Any others?

[jacobolus]

1)  Switchable Caps Lock/Ctrl
2)  Switchable PC/Mac
3)  Switchable L-Spacebar/Backspace

Any others?

How about switchable R-spacebar / Backspace? That’s the one I personally use. [Because when using the mouse in the right hand, with the left hand on the keyboard, e.g. in Photoshop, it’s still nice to have access to the spacebar.] Then again, since I’m probably not actually going to buy one of these for myself, maybe don’t make decisions based on my usage. :-)

Also, caps/fn swap (or caps/ctrl/fn 3-way swap) could be very useful for some folks, e.g. for easy access to numpad.

[davkol]

Esc/something (maybe tilde?) swap. I remember some people (not only Vim users) were upset about this kind of Esc placement on sidewinder X6.

I guess the PC/Mac switch swaps left Alt and Win. Then I'd appreciate an option for Win/Alt swap to get bottom row like this: Ctrl-Alt-AltGr-space-space-AltGr-...

[Linkbane]

Okay, I'm going to see what we can do as far as switchable settings.  Please chime in here as to what you want.  At the moment we have...

1)  Switchable Caps Lock/Ctrl
2)  Switchable PC/Mac
3)  Switchable L-Spacebar/Backspace

Any others?

Perhaps if you could make switchable right spacebar and backspace? Dvorak only uses left spacebar, so it'd be really nice to see a backspace instead. Thanks for the new features, I applaud the innovation.

[Polymer]

Yeap..I think having the option to turn either of the space bars into something useful is a good idea (like backspace). 

Looking forward to seeing this in action soon...

[daerid]

That said, Matias, if you’re setting up some possible switchable settings [like ctrl/caps swap, etc.] I definitely recommend looking into the ability to make one of the spacebars work as backwards delete. Getting the delete key directly under the hands is one of the biggest and easiest ergonomic improvements to make, and doesn’t require much practice to learn.

Alternately, using one of the thumb keys for shift, and using the shift keys for something else, such as delete or Fn, is also quite nice. [But probably takes more time to learn]

Okay, I'm going to see what we can do as far as switchable settings.  Please chime in here as to what you want.  At the moment we have...

1)  Switchable Caps Lock/Ctrl
2)  Switchable PC/Mac
3)  Switchable L-Spacebar/Backspace

Any others?

Programmability. But you've already subtly intimated that it is going to be possible.

So yeah, hardware Caps/Ctrl switching would be fantastic.

Also, I'm going to be in the minority here, but having Insert on a FN layer is really annoying. There's a ton of usefulness in that key as a binding key for macros and such (I use the crap out of it for Resharper's "Insert [item]" templates).

Also, in a lot of terminals, shift+insert is the only viable way to paste via the keyboard.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

I could see people wanting to swap in different things for left space. Backspace makes the most sense, but shift/ctrl/alt could be good candidates. Maybe provide a setting to make it some random key nobody uses that you could use software like AutoHotKey to switch out.

[Matias]

Okay, we're designing in 4 DIP switches for adjustable user settings.  Tentatively, they will be...

     1)  Alt/Win keys  =  PC / Mac

     2)  Swap Ctrl / Caps Lock

     3)  L-Space  =  Space / Backspace

     4)  R-Space  =  Space / Backspace

We're positioning them under a keycap, so they'll be hidden after you set them to what you like.

[Findecanor]

Any others?

If you are sure that you won't make an ISO version, then for making the right Ctrl key into the "ISO Backslash" (USB HID usage page 0x07 code 0x64).
Someone might wish that it was 'B'.

[MissMurd3r84]

How soon should I pre-order for free shipping? Trying to hold off as long as I can, especially since it may cost less if I wait, depending on the exchange rate at the time.

[MissMurd3r84]

 

[dgreekstallion]

Quick question:

Will you charge when we order, or when the item actually ships?

Thanks.

[MissMurd3r84]

I cannot work out what postal thing to choose, it's meant to be free shipping yet if I choose the Asia/Australian one it wants to charge me an extra $5?

[Pacifist]

There's a GB for these?

[MissMurd3r84]

There's a GB for these?

There's a pre-order for them via the link on first page.

[Findecanor]

There's a pre-order for them via the link on first page.

order link.
At $200 USD including shipping (worldwide  shipping!), it is cheaper than the ErgoDox or the Truly Ergonomic when they were last available on Massdrop. (The ErgoDox at $199 did not come with keycaps)