Author Topic: Why Ergo Clears?  (Read 12295 times)

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Offline robertsig

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Why Ergo Clears?
« on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 10:59:01 »
Why are Ergo Clears (other than the name) based upon the Cherry Clear switch?  Since it is more rare, wouldn't it make sense to mod a board based on the ubiquitous Cherry Brown up instead of the Clear down to get the same result?  Or am I missing something?  Is there something else different between the Browns and Clears other than springs?

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 10:59:38 »
The clear stem is different than the brown stem.

Offline keymaster

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:01:38 »
^ which gives more tactility than the brown switch

Offline robertsig

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:07:33 »
Ahh, thanks.

Does anyone know where I can pick up Krytox now that the Geekhack store is closed?  I don't need much, right?

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:12:34 »
Have you tried stock clears? It might be worth a shot before you go all in.

Offline riotonthebay

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:22:58 »
There's also an argument to be made that you should use the stock clears for a few months to break them in as well. I'd skipped this step before and regretted it.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:24:33 »
There's also an argument to be made that you should use the stock clears for a few months to break them in as well. I'd skipped this step before and regretted it.

?... elaborate on how you skipped using the switch while using the switch?

Offline riotonthebay

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:25:35 »
There's also an argument to be made that you should use the stock clears for a few months to break them in as well. I'd skipped this step before and regretted it.

?... elaborate on how you skipped using the switch while using the switch?

I modded brand new clears to ergo clears without breaking them in first.

Offline kod

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:30:52 »
What specifically did you end up regretting?  Did you use lube when you did the mod?

Offline riotonthebay

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:34:04 »
I regretted not giving the switches time to break in without lube before lubing them. The switch will break in and the action will become smoother over time due to friction, but the lube reduces friction therefore taking longer to break in.

Offline kod

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:35:14 »
I guess what I mean is i'd expect break-in to reduce friction, but lube to do the same thing... were they gritty or stuck at a particular point?

Offline riotonthebay

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:36:20 »
They weren't gritty or horrible – I still thought they were nicer than stock clears, browns, etc – but they never reached their peak potential ;)

One option would be to buy some used clears from an older Cherry board, for instance.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:58:50 »
They weren't gritty or horrible I still thought they were nicer than stock clears, browns, etc but they never reached their peak potential ;)

One option would be to buy some used clears from an older Cherry board, for instance.

um... the lube would delay the break in process.. but you're "still breaking them in as you use it"...


We should also clarify that Ergo-clear only indicates "Spring mod".. it doesn't indicate lube status..

This is what tripped me up when you said regret..


Save the regretting for burnt-turkeys and divorce.

Offline riotonthebay

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:59:48 »
Save the regretting for burnt-turkeys and divorce.

Sage words of wisdom ;)

Offline hashbaz

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 12:06:41 »
Ahh, thanks.

Does anyone know where I can pick up Krytox now that the Geekhack store is closed?  I don't need much, right?

Try ebay for the Krytox.

Offline riotonthebay

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 12:09:53 »
Ahh, thanks.

Does anyone know where I can pick up Krytox now that the Geekhack store is closed?  I don't need much, right?

Try ebay for the Krytox.

Yep, this seller has reasonably priced Krytox, including GPL 205 and 103: http://www.ebay.com/usr/pps-auctions1

Offline daerid

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 13:32:09 »
Much prefer stock clears to ergo clears

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Offline Comment

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 13:38:43 »
Much prefer stock clears to ergo clears
Definitely all preference, I'd recommend anyone try the stock clears before the ergos, ya never know what might strike your fancy!
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Offline tricheboars

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:06:58 »
i just bought a lube kit from originitive and it shipped out today. it came with the lube you want. i bought the kit after JD told me lubing switches with Super Lube is a mortal sin.

i didnt know i should break in the clears for a bit before modding them.  i wouldnt mind doing that if it is worth it but i think it would be easier to mod the switches without having the soldered to a plate. but whateves. i want the best keyboard experience. i can wait.
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Offline robertsig

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:14:39 »
I bought a Cherry Clear based keyboard, some 65g Korean springs and also just ordered the MechLube 2 from Elite Keyboards.  Hopefully that lube is good enough.  I am looking for something in between Browns and Blacks, perhaps closer to Blues, so I don't have a problem modding a new board.  I love my Topre 45g board and found the Topre 55g just a bit too heavy.  If I could build my own keyboard, it would be Topre 49g.  :cool:  I believe, from what I've read, that the stock Clears are slightly stronger than a Torpre 55g, so I imagine the 65g Koreans will be perfect.

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:17:38 »
Much prefer stock clears to ergo clears
Definitely all preference, I'd recommend anyone try the stock clears before the ergos, ya never know what might strike your fancy!

Same here.  Big stock Clears fan and also like light switches like Browns, Blues, 55g MX Whites, etc. for reference.  Don't care for ergo-Clears.  Definitely try stock Clears first to get an idea.
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:18:54 »
I bought a Cherry Clear based keyboard, some 65g Korean springs and also just ordered the MechLube 2 from Elite Keyboards.  Hopefully that lube is good enough.  I am looking for something in between Browns and Blacks, perhaps closer to Blues, so I don't have a problem modding a new board.  I love my Topre 45g board and found the Topre 55g just a bit too heavy.  If I could build my own keyboard, it would be Topre 49g.  :cool:  I believe, from what I've read, that the stock Clears are slightly stronger than a Torpre 55g, so I imagine the 65g Koreans will be perfect.

Let us know how that mechlube is, I haven't seen it recommended very much for lubing switches.

Offline Comment

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:19:38 »
i just bought a lube kit from originitive and it shipped out today. it came with the lube you want. i bought the kit after JD told me lubing switches with Super Lube is a mortal sin.

i didnt know i should break in the clears for a bit before modding them.  i wouldnt mind doing that if it is worth it but i think it would be easier to mod the switches without having the soldered to a plate. but whateves. i want the best keyboard experience. i can wait.
How did you know that your Orginative stuff shipped? I bought from there about a week ago (springs, stickers, etc) and only got notification for purchasing. No shipping info.
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Offline tricheboars

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:19:41 »
Much prefer stock clears to ergo clears
Definitely all preference, I'd recommend anyone try the stock clears before the ergos, ya never know what might strike your fancy!

Same here.  Big stock Clears fan and also like light switches like Browns, Blues, 55g MX Whites, etc. for reference.  Don't care for ergo-Clears.  Definitely try stock Clears first to get an idea.

i was 100% set on making ergo clears with 62g korean springs for my ergodox until i read this thread. what didnt you like about the ergo clears?  were they too light? what didnt you like about them?
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Offline strict

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:20:18 »
I bought a Cherry Clear based keyboard, some 65g Korean springs and also just ordered the MechLube 2 from Elite Keyboards.  Hopefully that lube is good enough.  I am looking for something in between Browns and Blacks, perhaps closer to Blues, so I don't have a problem modding a new board.  I love my Topre 45g board and found the Topre 55g just a bit too heavy.  If I could build my own keyboard, it would be Topre 49g.  :cool:  I believe, from what I've read, that the stock Clears are slightly stronger than a Torpre 55g, so I imagine the 65g Koreans will be perfect.

Im pretty sure I remember reading somewhere the EK lube is only suitable for stabilizers (ie. not inside a switch).

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Offline tricheboars

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:20:48 »
i just bought a lube kit from originitive and it shipped out today. it came with the lube you want. i bought the kit after JD told me lubing switches with Super Lube is a mortal sin.

i didnt know i should break in the clears for a bit before modding them.  i wouldnt mind doing that if it is worth it but i think it would be easier to mod the switches without having them soldered to a plate. but whateves. i want the best keyboard experience. i can wait.
How did you know that your Orginative stuff shipped? I bought from there about a week ago (springs, stickers, etc) and only got notification for purchasing. No shipping info.

i didnt do jack **** except order it and got the shipping notice today. i think i ordered the lube kit and springs on sat or sun.  perhaps sherry just had the things i requested in stock so he could ship right away?
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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:27:56 »
Much prefer stock clears to ergo clears
Definitely all preference, I'd recommend anyone try the stock clears before the ergos, ya never know what might strike your fancy!

Same here.  Big stock Clears fan and also like light switches like Browns, Blues, 55g MX Whites, etc. for reference.  Don't care for ergo-Clears.  Definitely try stock Clears first to get an idea.

i was 100% set on making ergo clears with 62g korean springs for my ergodox until i read this thread. what didnt you like about the ergo clears?  were they too light? what didnt you like about them?

The stock Clear spring has pretty neat properties, which makes the force profile steeper than other springs:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449



Up to the actuation point, stock Clears are fairly light.  Past the actuation point, it becomes a lot more difficult to depress the switch and bottom out.  The result is that it's easy to float just past the actuation point and move on to the next switch.  I almost never bottom out on stock Clears and can touch-type quickly.  Lubricated stock Clears (with Victorinox oil on springs and some in the central shaft of the Clear stem is inserted and a tiny bit of Krytox mixture for the stems) are my favorite to type on.  The stock spring also helps the switches rebound quickly.

Now with lighter 62g springs, I've experienced a "wobbly" feeling when typing, the rebound was longer and felt a little sluggish, the typing sound was a lot clunkier and louder, and it actually felt like more work for my fingers, because it was difficult not to bottom out when typing quickly at ~90 WPM, for reference.  It's a personal preference, as everyone's fingers/hands/typing methods vary, but ergo-Clears have not impressed me.
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Offline strict

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:04:00 »
I bought a Cherry Clear based keyboard, some 65g Korean springs and also just ordered the MechLube 2 from Elite Keyboards.  Hopefully that lube is good enough.  I am looking for something in between Browns and Blacks, perhaps closer to Blues, so I don't have a problem modding a new board.  I love my Topre 45g board and found the Topre 55g just a bit too heavy.  If I could build my own keyboard, it would be Topre 49g.  :cool:  I believe, from what I've read, that the stock Clears are slightly stronger than a Torpre 55g, so I imagine the 65g Koreans will be perfect.

Im pretty sure I remember reading somewhere the EK lube is only suitable for stabilizers (ie. not inside a switch).

I knew I remembered reading that EK lube should not be used inside the switch - Source

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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:08:24 »
Much prefer stock clears to ergo clears
Definitely all preference, I'd recommend anyone try the stock clears before the ergos, ya never know what might strike your fancy!

Same here.  Big stock Clears fan and also like light switches like Browns, Blues, 55g MX Whites, etc. for reference.  Don't care for ergo-Clears.  Definitely try stock Clears first to get an idea.

i was 100% set on making ergo clears with 62g korean springs for my ergodox until i read this thread. what didnt you like about the ergo clears?  were they too light? what didnt you like about them?

ah... doesn't matter.. if you don't like it.. switch them back.. the springs are $10.. hardly an issue to "find out" if you like stock vs ergo..

Offline 1pq

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:23:58 »
There's also an argument to be made that you should use the stock clears for a few months to break them in as well. I'd skipped this step before and regretted it.

I'm in that phase currently. I've figured out, though, since I use colemak, that I can switch a certain set of stems to the home row, and then switch them around to an infrequently used part of the board (F keys, for instance, or nav keys--since I'm on a Mac). This way, I can wear down all the stems evenly, and in a much quicker time period. It is kind of a pain swapping out stems though  :rolleyes:
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Offline robertsig

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:49:13 »
Quote
Im pretty sure I remember reading somewhere the EK lube is only suitable for stabilizers (ie. not inside a switch).
Quote
I knew I remembered reading that EK lube should not be used inside the switch - Source
Well, I bought the MechLube 2.  Is that different than the one not recommended?
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,misc&pid=mechlube_2

The chart above is what led me to ordering the Korean 65g springs.  If I wanted something as light as the 62g springs, I might as well just buy stock Browns.  Perhaps I'm missing something (again!), but I see no point of modding Cherry Clears with Originative 62g springs, let alone anything lighter.  And as someone who feels Reds/Browns are too light, this led me to my latest project of trying 65g Originative springs + Cherry Clears.  I ordered this board:
http://www.banggood.com/Keycool-87-White-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard-Cherry-MX-Clear-Switch-p-89115.html

Offline tricheboars

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 16:47:51 »
well 62g korean springs seem to be a geekhack favorite.
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Offline Comment

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 20:06:45 »
well 62g korean springs seem to be a geekhack favorite.
Also I believe korean springs are measured by the bottom out force though I could be wrong. So the 62g arent as heavy as they sound.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:14:39 »
well 62g korean springs seem to be a geekhack favorite.
Also I believe korean springs are measured by the bottom out force though I could be wrong. So the 62g arent as heavy as they sound.

the 62 after-market springs are virtually identical to stock brown/blue springs.

i doubt anyone could "feel" the difference if they were swapped...


Offline Comment

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:17:49 »
well 62g korean springs seem to be a geekhack favorite.
Also I believe korean springs are measured by the bottom out force though I could be wrong. So the 62g arent as heavy as they sound.

the 62 after-market springs are virtually identical to stock brown/blue springs.

i doubt anyone could "feel" the difference if they were swapped...
Ill be doing a clear mod and then thinking about going to ergo clear but im not sure how ill feel about how heavy they are since I havent typed on a heavy switch for an extended period of time. Should be interesting.  :D
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Offline kenmai9

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:23:39 »
Cus they's the best

Offline Comment

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:24:09 »
Cus they's the best
Dat in depth response :p
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Offline 1pq

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:39:15 »
Cus they's the best
Dat in depth response :p

oh wise kenmai,  tell us more.....
Show Image


Yeah you provide us with a lot of great unbiased info as well
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 21:40:39 »
Cus they's the best
Dat in depth response :p

oh wise kenmai,  tell us more.....
Show Image


Yeah you provide us with a lot of great unbiased info as well

Me...?  Why I'd never... Preposterous 

Offline TheSoulhunter

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 22:21:50 »
67g and 70g FTW!

Offline 1pq

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 22:34:53 »
Just for reference--what's the bottom-out force of a stock clear spring? 100g?
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 05 February 2014, 22:47:31 »
Just for reference--what's the bottom-out force of a stock clear spring? 100g?

there's that graph posted above. ^^^

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 06 February 2014, 01:53:51 »
There's also an argument to be made that you should use the stock clears for a few months to break them in as well. I'd skipped this step before and regretted it.
Also to break yourself in ... or I mean, get used to typing on them.
You don't have to press them as far down as other switches.
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Offline tricheboars

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 06 February 2014, 11:47:27 »
i am a bottom out guy. this is why i want to do the 62g swap on the stock clear switches. however if i put SA caps on the board i shouldnt bottom out since SA is so loud and incompatible with o-rings.  i have been playing with the idea of putting a dampening foam on the plate so that i can rock SA caps in the office. not sure how i will do this though. perhaps cut up the dampening pads i got from EliteKeyboards and stick them to the plate? not sure...
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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #45 on: Thu, 06 February 2014, 11:53:43 »
I put lubed stock Clears into dustinhxc's Poker X that I sold him (also plate mounted them), and he tells me that he never even uses his Topre board anymore. :D
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 06 February 2014, 11:57:12 »
I put lubed stock Clears into dustinhxc's Poker X that I sold him (also plate mounted them), and he tells me that he never even uses his Topre board anymore. :D

:eek:

jd what lube do you recommend with stock clears? And you follow the lubing guide?

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #47 on: Thu, 06 February 2014, 12:08:42 »
I put lubed stock Clears into dustinhxc's Poker X that I sold him (also plate mounted them), and he tells me that he never even uses his Topre board anymore. :D

:eek:

jd what lube do you recommend with stock clears? And you follow the lubing guide?

For lubing switches, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use Krytox. Did I mention Krytox?

I lube the side sliders of the stems which come into contact with the bottom housing with a mixture of 205 grease and 103 oil. Then I put a drop of Victorinox multi-tool oil on the top and bottom of the spring. Stickers are not worth messing with, IMO.
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


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"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #48 on: Thu, 06 February 2014, 13:29:30 »
^That's basically what I do too.  Lubricate the spring with Victorinox Multitool Oil (the bottle has a long dropper cone extension, and a spring fits right over it, so it's easy to lubricate springs one by one) and drop a tiny bit of oil into the stem shafts: gets rid of any ping / spring resonance and makes the switches feel more "unified".  Then small amount of Krytox along the sides of the bottom housing where the stem slides, and a tiny bit on the front of the stem.
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Offline dustinhxc

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Re: Why Ergo Clears?
« Reply #49 on: Thu, 06 February 2014, 13:41:27 »
Never tried different springs but I love my stock clears so much! Best switch ever used.