Time for a maltron?? Haha

It's a shame that you love the dox so much and have to give it up. Since your thumb is the most affected, what about rigging something so you don't have to reach for that key with the thumb? A quick kludge fix I think would be to grab the clip from a uniball pen and secure it to the key. That metal piece I would think would be rigid enough to easily transfer the energy required to activate the key.

If you fixed that one element of the board, would you go back to using it? Seems like a good fit otherwise.

I weep for you.  You know what they say:  if you love something, give it away.  Not sure that I totally agree with that statement, but whatever.

If the first Ergodox thumb key were moved slightly closer in (to where there’s currently an awkward gap) would it work for you? Or do you think it would be better to also change the height/orientation of the thumb keys, not just the 2D position?

Alternately, would just changing the height of the keys help? For instance, putting a couple of SA-profile keycaps on the thumb keys (with lower profile caps on the other keys) might be some improvement.

Does reaching for the further thumb keys occasionally also cause you problems, or is it just mainly the need to frequently hit space that’s an issue?

For instance, would a layout along the lines of this work, assuming the key directly below the 'N'/'B' could be used for space?

Show Image

Have you tried a Maltron ever? The thumb keys seem much better placed/oriented than the Ergodox, for my hands.

Are you keeping an eye on Jesse’s (Obra’s) keyboard.io startup, or the upcoming Matias ErgoPro?

The Maltron has much better thumb key placement, and they are lower in height than the rest of the keys to make them more comfortable.  The curved design also is nice.

I would keep your eye out for keyboardio offerings.  Their blog mentioned the possibility of an adjustable design.

You'd better change the way you type first, than change your keyboard. *trolling* 

i'm not sure whether it was primarily keyboard related, but i have at least experienced symptoms like yours in my left hand (i have a feeling it is excerbated by ligament injury however).

i do agree it is careful to not invoke too much thumb activation at its limit of reach. that is where muscles are at their weakest. from reports i suppose problems with the ergodox layout led to your problem, for me i can feel strain after assigning the furthest thumb keys on the kinesis to single hand modifers. they are very useful and i can still use them easily, but i have learnt to adapt to different 'home' positions for different modifier keys (they provide relatively independent function mapping), to prevent stretching of the thumb.

i have found one of my main dual-role mod keys (backspace) can be easily activated by ball of the thumb (alternative palm key for the kinesis if you will) which is a whole lot more comfortable to use anyway. another useful thing to do would be to modify the keys to reduce their activation force, or replace with cherry reds.

the pain may not be noticed during keyboard use early on, so it may be hard to make the association at first. i encourage anyone who does notice such symptoms to catch the problem early, it is too easy to ignore when you are entranced in some task and tendons/ligaments heal unrepentantly slowly.

Using the ErgoDox thumb clusters (even just the closest vertical button, which I used for the space bar), required me to extend my thumb ever so slightly. This constant extending of the thumb eventually caused that tendon to just start screaming in pain. It was only my right thumb because that's the only hand I use to hit the space bar.

Thanks for posting your experience...

If your hand is the right size, the ErgoDox can be extremely comfortable to type on.

However, if your hand is a little too big or a little too small, the ErgoDox will feel like a wrong-sized shoe.  This is due to the way they've designed the spacebar keys...

A normal keyboard has the spacebar going all the way across the bottom.  The spacebar is crazy WIDE, so you can press it anywhere you like.  It's a one-size-fits-all design.

The ErgoDox has a TALL spacebar that's only 1u wide.  Because it's so narrow, it has to be in EXACTLY the right spot.  If it's just a little bit off, you'll feel it.  You'll either have to stretch to reach it, or you'll feel cramped because it's too close.  It all depends on the size of your hand.

To fix this, they either need to widen the spacebars, or to offer the ErgoDox in different sizes, to accommodate different hand sizes.

That's an interesting bit of keyboard science, Matias. Thanks!

By the way, I believe Obra talked to some UC Berkeley ergonomics professor who advised him that pressing the spacebar in the standard direction is probably more ergonomic than pressing inward toward the fingers. [But take that with some salt, since I don’t think they were envisioning anything quite like your setup, Oobly.]

My personal hypothesis (but this isn’t backed by enough experience to really say anything very definitive) is that the angle you have thumb keys set up at is probably about as good as other alternatives for modifier keys, but for a key being typed frequently like the spacebar it might be an advantage to angle it the other direction (something like the Maltron’s angle).

I’m still trying to figure out how to build a keyboard with 2-3 thumb keys angled one way, and 2-3 angled the other way (not quite at right angles to each-other, but almost).

It's experiences like this that are pushing me further towards making my ergo board into a product.

The ErgoDox was a step in the right direction, but not nearly far enough. Tenting should be part of the package, pinkie column should be staggered more, thumb clusters should be more compact, angled and repositioned.

The thumb clusters on my design are primarily based on allowing the thumb to be at a natural rest position while typing and using adduction / abduction for positioning and flexion for pressing, whereas most "flat" boards require the thumb to be in extension at rest, position with extension / flexion (and sometimes ALSO twisting the wrist to move "up" or "down") and press with abduction while extended. The movements don't really correspond 1:1 with muscle and tendon groups and particular joints and their movement abilities and limits, but only define movement directions with respect to the rest of the hand / wrist. Still, long term testing is showing lots of promise for my cluster design. The movements required are small and don't require tension to be introduced in awkward ways.

I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him here, but this is what jacobolus has said about thumb movements in the Nexus / Axios thread:

Quote

A standard keyboard, as well as the ergodox, kinesis, maltron rely mainly on the main direction of carpometacarpal movement. Of these, I haven’t tried a Maltron, but in making prototypes of my own with plastilina and cardboard, and from just holding loose switches in one hand with the other hand sitting in a neutral position and trying to press them, I believe that the Maltron has the best angle for taking advantage of the natural direction of motion for the strongest type of thumb motion. The Kinesis Advantage is in my opinion is a less effective angle, and the ergodox has a still less effective angle.

Oobly’s DIY keyboard, for example, relies on a different, inward movement of the carpometacarpal, plus an assist from the metacarpophalangeal joint. This is in my experience a less easy/powerful joint movement, but he gets away with it by having all the keys very easy to reach, which more than makes up the difference compared to the poor placement of Ergodox thumb keys.

Figuring out the proper height and direction for the thumb to move though, such that (a) the motion takes as little effort as possible using the biggest muscles and aligning with the movement as closely as possible, and (b) reaching all the keys is easy and natural is a quite non-trivial problem. And figuring out something that will work for very large or very small hands is difficult indeed.

I still have to really study the joints, ligaments and muscles governing thumb movement and who knows, I may change the thumb cluster design again then, but for now it seems to be at  the very least a big improvement over what's on the market at the moment and if it can help people to type more comfortably and with less chance of long term damage it'll be worth getting it out there.

another major problem is  our adherence to the antiquated (flat) desk...

As Ergonauts, we strive for that perfect mesh of our body angles and our instruments...

However this requires EVERYTHING be tuned.. desk height, monitor height, arm support height, keyboard angle, key spacing.. etc ... etc...  etc ^999..


There in lies the problem... Where do you stop... because you can not make a keyboard that goes on a static surface, and hope that it will work (ergonomically) for everyone..


As soon as the table height/ chair height/ elbow height changes...  the resting wrist angle is greatly influenced..    and this changes the game dramatically for each player..

I bought an Ergodox, and tried to use it for about a week, but I also think it has serious problems, especially with the thumb cluster (and to some extent with the finger section too).

It’s better in many ways than a standard keyboard, but a few design changes could make a big improvement for most hand shapes, IMO.

i honestly think the thumb cluster issue is a TENTING issue..

Mostly everyone i've polled including {daerid} with thumb cluster issue use a LOW tent ~15-20 degrees.

THAT IS NOT ENOUGH..   it has to be a minimum of 30 degrees for a flat surface..  if your wrist is raised by a wrist rest.. ONLY then can you make due with 15-20 degrees.

The Kinesis Advantage also overloads the thumb keys in the same way as the ErgoDox.  Anyone have a similar or different experience with it?

The Kinesis Advantage also overloads the thumb keys in the same way as the ErgoDox.  Anyone have a similar or different experience with it?

I don’t have any extensive experience typing on a Maltron or a Kinesis Advantage (about 10 minutes with the Maltron, about a day with the Kinesis, vs. a couple weeks full time with the Ergodox), but just from a bit of playing with one, I think the Maltron does rather better than either the Ergodox or the Kinesis Advantage.

My (perhaps unfair) summary goes like this:

(1) Maltron made a keyboard shape optimized for their production process: a hand-wired keyboard in a vacuum-formed plastic case. They have great flexibility when it comes to both 3-dimensional placement and orientation of every key. As a result, they can (at least for a range of average-ish hand sizes) design their keyboard so that as many keys as possible are within very easy reach, and each key is at the best height and angle that their process could manage.

(2) The Kinesis people thought that seemed like a great design, but thought they could produce a copycat for cheaper, by using a curved PCB instead of hand wiring. Because the curved PCB is much more constrained than the vacuum forming process w/r/t position and orientation of switches, they tried to compromise by using keycaps of varying profiles. This is only marginally successful, and overall the keys are not as reachable or easy to press as Maltron keys. Additionally, for my hands at least, the Kinesis seems to have much worse positioning and angling for the thumb keys than the Maltron does. I’m not sure if this is because they screwed up, or because my hands are atypical, or because their position nominally works for a broader range of hand shapes, or what. But anyway, to me it seems like a serious design flaw.

(3) The Ergodox people (Dox & friends) thought the Kinesis seemed like a great design, but thought they could produce a sort-of-copycat for even cheaper, by just using two flat PCBs/plates/cases. The downside of this is that the shape doesn’t fit a hand nearly as well. But potentially mitigating this, the two halves are separate, so they can be independently moved and reoriented to suit someone’s personal preference. Also, programmable firmware is great!

My (perhaps unfair) speculation is that at each copying step, the designers didn’t stop to think about what the optimal shape was given the constraints of human hands and their chosen production technology; instead, they just tried to copy the previous design as closely as possible and adapting it minimally to fit the new constraints. As a result, neither design comes from the same kind of understanding that the Maltron’s original creators had of the design space. [However, in getting a bunch of people who need something better away from standard keyboards, the Kinesis is still a great success. And as an inspirational collaborative hobby-project which gets people building their own keyboards and taking ownership of the whole process, the Ergodox is amazing and wonderful. I love it for that!]

I’m really sad that the DataStealth/Flinder keyboard never made it to production, because it seems like a very solid design from first principles, by about the most serious anatomy/ergonomics expert who has ever tried to design a keyboard from scratch. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55099.msg1236269#msg1236269

Among keyboards before 2014, I think the DataStealth, the Maltron, the μTRON, and the Cherry G80-5000 are the best four examples of ergonomic keyboards (at least, best when it comes to the keyboard shape/layout) that were designed. They have 4 somewhat different philosophies about what makes a good ergonomic keyboard, and end up in 4 substantially different areas of the possible design space, but each is a real masterpiece.

I’m really excited to see projects like ErgoPro and keyboard.io and Axios coming up in 2014; we’re seeing some real innovation again for the first time in >10 years... not just hobby projects, but real products (fingers crossed). Hopefully there is continued experimentation and invention in the next few years!

Edit: I also hope someone starts trying layouts more like this:

Split spacebar + extra thumb keys are great, even on a standard-ish keyboard!

Hi Daerid,
Thanks very much for the report on your experience with your ErgoDoxs.
You are not alone. Someone close to me experiences what seems like a similar condition, except with both thumbs, not just one.
Please keep us updated as to your further thoughts, findings, experiments
regarding your hand pain status. I hope you become pain-free!
 

That's certainly one part of the story. The other one is the spacebar shape/profile. I had my thumb hurt on some rubber domes, because of sharp edges of the keycaps and having to press them with the edge of a fingernail.

That's certainly one part of the story. The other one is the spacebar shape/profile. I had my thumb hurt on some rubber domes, because of sharp edges of the keycaps and having to press them with the edge of a fingernail.

Yeah I was more agreeing with Matias in context of my particular case.

If the Maltron is PS/2 then it should be quite easy to stick a Teensy as a little external converter box between the keyboard and the computer, with (for instance) hasu’s firmware on it, and then program away to your heart’s content.

If the keyboard is USB, then it would be a bit harder, and the easiest approach to making it programmable might be opening it up and entirely replacing the controller.

I found that my thumbs would naturally rest on the space (and backspace) bars closer to my hand than the outermost 2u key on the thumb clusters, and that's where my thumbs would normally push downwards for space (and backspace) on the TECK or any other keyboard. After that, I moved space (and backspace) to the innermost key on the lowest row - where most people would put the arrow keys or some other non-alpha keys. To me (and my hands) this is the most natural position for space (and backspace).

I suspect that the further-away thumb keys are uncomfortable even for those with large hands, and also that the weird little gap between the thumb section and the main section is pretty easy for most everyone to type.

I suspect that (assuming we want to stick to the constraints of 2 flat halves and a finger section with staggered columns all aligned and tightly packed), then something like this might be sufficient (or if it needs broad appeal, perhaps also with a number row):

I like a firmware solution as well, and a teensy would be a very cool mod to achieve it. If it's betweeen a firmare solution with inferior ergos and a software solution with superior ergos, I'm picking the latter. I held off as long as I could while I tried to get my Kinesis to do everything I wanted with firmware, but broke down and went with a software solution and haven't looked back since. Momentary shifting on a primary thumb key is the way to go IMO, and I don't think I could ever go back to a flat keyboard after enjoying this sucker.

I suspect that (assuming we want to stick to the constraints of 2 flat halves and a finger section with staggered columns all aligned and tightly packed), then something like this might be sufficient (or if it needs broad appeal, perhaps also with a number row):

Show Image

Sorry I butchered your drawing, but I think something like this would be safer on your hands...





This way your thumb acts as a frame of reference, and you just pivot your hand slightly to reach the inside modifier keys.

You have a nice wide Spacebar, to address the main problem discussed in this thread.  Note also that this key is upside-down, so that your thumb is not resting on a sharp edge.

...

The way I intend to approximate this in my own DIY keyboard (a flat model intended to be portable) is by having a thumb "meta-modifier" key on each hand, which turns all the home-row keys on the same hand into modifier keys (command, option, shift, control, etc.). On a hand-wired full 3d desk-bound keyboard, I can just copy the DataStealth approach.

I am interested in how you then press a modifier plus the key character you are using for the modifier? Let's say you use A as Ctrl, how do you press Ctrl-A?

I agree that it's a great time for keyboard innovation right now and look forward to seeing the Axios and Keyboardio designs becoming products.

I'm using a TECK right now and I find myself using my index finger for most of the middle keys. and thumb on the space bars.  I'm not sure how that will translate over to the ErgoDox.

Also, I’d recommend someone pick whichever of those 3 1x1.5 thumb keys in my drawing their thumb most naturally rests on to be the spacebar (which might vary from person to person), and then use the other keys for whatever else they like (shift, backspace, enter, some letter key, fn, whatever..).

This entire thread was preciptated by someone injured using a 1u spacebar.  Three 1u spacebars doesn't really sound like a solution.  What if the most comfortable spot is exactly between two of them?  Which one do I press?

Of course, if you're building a custom DIY board, you can (in theory) position them in exactly the right spots, but it's not a general solution for all users.

You’re proposing adding modifier keys which take moving the whole hand to use; personally I wouldn’t want to use such a setup if I could help it; indeed, I think it’s one of the biggest flaws with current keyboards.

There's nothing wrong with moving your whole hand -- as long as the targets are big and in a natural position. 

In fact, I think you're increasing your risk of injury by *not* moving your hand periodically.  You're overloading a smaller group of muscles, whereas what you should be doing is spreading the work around as much as possible.

It's kind of like sitting in a chair all day.  You may think you're being efficient, but what you're actually doing is atrophying your leg muscles.  It's healthier if you have to walk from time to time.

There's nothing wrong with moving your whole hand -- as long as the targets are big and in a natural position. 

In fact, I think you're increasing your risk of injury by *not* moving your hand periodically.  You're overloading a smaller group of muscles, whereas what you should be doing is spreading the work around as much as possible.

The problem is not moving your hand from time to time. The problem is moving your hand back and forth in an awkward and very specific way, over and over and over again in an identical pattern throughout the day, and trying to do it quickly. It ends up being both uncomfortable and very inefficient.