Author Topic: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions  (Read 632993 times)

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Offline WholesomeDucky

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5050 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 10:48:28 »
The Sun UNIX layout, (the core of HHKB) is the superior layout.  Why would you want a 2x wide backspace key...and why reach soooooo far to press ESC.

Course, if you're not a unix user you suck anyway so your opinion based on windows or mac computer use is pointless.
I can agree. The second part might be a little heavy handed but I have found myself using split BS and ctrl-caps swap on most of my boards now
60% keyboards can't be for serious use, most KVM switches use the scroll-lock to change inputs, if you don't have more than one computer on your desk you suck anyway.
This, I definitely can't agree with. 60% boards can press scrl lock still. Hell, even my 40% can press scrl lock. KVMs aren't that popular, they're VERY niche, which is part of the reason they are so expensive.

I use Alice and sometimes Planck at work all day long (server work) and I'd gain nothing by using bigger boards. Also our hardened KVMs don't have a keyboard shortcut for switching, sadly.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 July 2020, 10:50:20 by WholesomeDucky »
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Offline downtownHippie

  • Posts: 29
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5051 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 11:34:38 »
Course, if you're not a unix user you suck anyway so your opinion based on windows or mac computer use is pointless.
I can agree. The second part might be a little heavy handed but I have found myself using split BS and ctrl-caps swap on most of my boards now

What cracks me up are people talking as if the cntrl-caps swap is the primary distinction between the 2 layouts.  For me, having typed on this layout for (geeze) pushing 30 years, the cntrl-caps thing is uninteresting, easy adaptation.  The change in location for the `~ and thus \| and backspace keys is what it's all about.  As a UNIX command-line user that's gold!

might have been heavy handed, but I was almost this guy when this was drawn...

http://folk.uio.no/hpv/linuxtoons/dilbert-unix.png

I miss when Scott was funny...

Offline WholesomeDucky

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5052 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 11:37:54 »
Course, if you're not a unix user you suck anyway so your opinion based on windows or mac computer use is pointless.
I can agree. The second part might be a little heavy handed but I have found myself using split BS and ctrl-caps swap on most of my boards now

What cracks me up are people talking as if the cntrl-caps swap is the primary distinction between the 2 layouts.  For me, having typed on this layout for (geeze) pushing 30 years, the cntrl-caps thing is uninteresting, easy adaptation.  The change in location for the `~ and thus \| and backspace keys is what it's all about.  As a UNIX command-line user that's gold!

might have been heavy handed, but I was almost this guy when this was drawn...

http://folk.uio.no/hpv/linuxtoons/dilbert-unix.png

I miss when Scott was funny...
Yeah, on my QMK boards (or boards where I can otherwise do full remapping), I do the Sun Unix ~-\ with BS underneath, and I typically put ctrl in BOTH spots, since I have had 0 use for caps lock any time in the last 10 years, so it goes on a layer.
7 years of spending money on typing

"Name checks out" -Kustoms, 2020

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Inbox always open, for any reason.

Offline downtownHippie

  • Posts: 29
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5053 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 12:02:59 »
Yeah, on my QMK boards (or boards where I can otherwise do full remapping), I do the Sun Unix ~-\ with BS underneath, and I typically put ctrl in BOTH spots, since I have had 0 use for caps lock any time in the last 10 years, so it goes on a layer.

The only use I have for caps lock is to turn it on on someone else's computer when they're not looking.  And turn off their num lock.

Offline Muchacho

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5054 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 15:06:10 »
My unpopular opinions:

- Way more keyboards designers should reuse existing plate/pcb layout/shape/size, preferably compatible with popular companies. When I buy a keyboard I don't want to buy extra plates "just in case" I would like to have the option to easily find the extra parts 5 years or 50 years later. But right now most of the new keyboards are incompatible with previous parts...

- Keyboardism is now more about appearance (RGB, deskmat, twisted cables, RAMA) than intrinsic properties (longevity, feels, sounds). I'm just surprised about how the shape/design of the a keyboard makes them instabuyable even though we don't know much about everything else.

Offline downtownHippie

  • Posts: 29
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5055 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 16:13:17 »
- Keyboardism is now more about appearance (RGB, deskmat, twisted cables, RAMA) than intrinsic properties (longevity, feels, sounds). I'm just surprised about how the shape/design of the a keyboard makes them instabuyable even though we don't know much about everything else.

I noticed this a few years ago when life took me away from the hobby, it was becoming less and less about the tool and more and more about a fashion accessory.  I'm OK with that, I grew up with beige PC's...but the "fanboi entitled" attitudes are not cool

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5056 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 17:26:02 »
might have been heavy handed, but I was almost this guy when this was drawn...

http://folk.uio.no/hpv/linuxtoons/dilbert-unix.png

I miss when Scott was funny...

I had a math professor who looked exactly like that. The computer in his office was some old beige relic of the past that was running some Linux flavor with no window manager installed. Gentoo or something, I think. He said IT basically just left him alone. He seemed like a pretty nice guy to me.

Yeah, on my QMK boards (or boards where I can otherwise do full remapping), I do the Sun Unix ~-\ with BS underneath, and I typically put ctrl in BOTH spots, since I have had 0 use for caps lock any time in the last 10 years, so it goes on a layer.

The only use I have for caps lock is to turn it on on someone else's computer when they're not looking.  And turn off their num lock.


I don't think anybody uses caps lock

My unpopular opinions:

- Way more keyboards designers should reuse existing plate/pcb layout/shape/size, preferably compatible with popular companies. When I buy a keyboard I don't want to buy extra plates "just in case" I would like to have the option to easily find the extra parts 5 years or 50 years later. But right now most of the new keyboards are incompatible with previous parts...

I agree, but then how would they ever draw in buyers if they didn't throw in the latest pointless trendy thing, or better yet, design a new pointless thing that becomes popular? I imagine layout is another problem there, in the business sense. People seem to always want something unique. I think there's sometimes some merit there in terms of use of space, and maybe even efficiency, but it does usually seem pointless.

There's one relatively obvious solution: Buy an IBM Model F and use it for 50 years without replacement parts, and pass it down to your great grandchildren.  :thumb:


- Keyboardism is now more about appearance (RGB, deskmat, twisted cables, RAMA) than intrinsic properties (longevity, feels, sounds). I'm just surprised about how the shape/design of the a keyboard makes them instabuyable even though we don't know much about everything else.

I think this goes both ways, maybe. I neither understand the obsession with dampening, mounting type, stabilizers, etc, etc, nor do I understand the excess in focus on aesthetics. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

- Keyboardism is now more about appearance (RGB, deskmat, twisted cables, RAMA) than intrinsic properties (longevity, feels, sounds). I'm just surprised about how the shape/design of the a keyboard makes them instabuyable even though we don't know much about everything else.

I noticed this a few years ago when life took me away from the hobby, it was becoming less and less about the tool and more and more about a fashion accessory.  I'm OK with that, I grew up with beige PC's...but the "fanboi entitled" attitudes are not cool

Even having always been interested in IT, I never liked beige electronics. I've come to love it over time ... mostly due to the awesome bygone switches that could be found in the keyboards of old, I fear, and partly because of how entertainingly out-of-place it seems to be now in the modern world.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5057 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 18:08:17 »

I never liked beige electronics


That's easy. Just take off the case top and use it naked.
Were our leaders just stupid? Well, maybe. But there’s a deeper explanation of the profoundly self-destructive behavior of Trump and his allies: They were all members of America’s cult of selfishness. You see, the modern US right is committed to the proposition that greed is good, that we’re all better off when individuals engage in the untrammeled pursuit of self-interest. In their vision, unrestricted profit maximization by businesses and unregulated consumer choice is the recipe for a good society.
Support for this proposition is, if anything, more emotional than intellectual. I’ve long been struck by the intensity of right-wing anger against relatively trivial regulations, like bans on phosphates in detergent and efficiency standards for light bulbs. It’s the principle of the thing: Many on the right are enraged at any suggestion that their actions should take other people’s welfare into account. This rage is sometimes portrayed as love of freedom. But people who insist on the right to pollute are notably unbothered by, say, federal agents tear-gassing peaceful protesters. What they call “freedom” is actually absence of responsibility.
Rational policy in a pandemic, however, is all about taking responsibility. The main reason you shouldn’t go to a bar and should wear a mask isn’t self-protection, although that’s part of it; the point is that congregating in noisy, crowded spaces or exhaling droplets into shared air puts others at risk. And that’s the kind of thing America’s right just hates, hates to hear. Anger at any suggestion of social responsibility also helps explain the looming fiscal catastrophe.  – Paul Krugman 2020-07-28 NYT

Offline mode

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5058 on: Thu, 16 July 2020, 01:41:23 »
What cracks me up are people talking as if the cntrl-caps swap is the primary distinction between the 2 layouts.  For me, having typed on this layout for (geeze) pushing 30 years, the cntrl-caps thing is uninteresting, easy adaptation.  The change in location for the `~ and thus \| and backspace keys is what it's all about.  As a UNIX command-line user that's gold!

Why is that move desirable though? Having `~ and \| near the shift keys is preferable for me. I hate reaching up to R1 when using ANSI boards.

Offline downtownHippie

  • Posts: 29
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5059 on: Thu, 16 July 2020, 10:02:09 »
Why is that move desirable though? Having `~ and \| near the shift keys is preferable for me. I hate reaching up to R1 when using ANSI boards.

you must be ISO, you're still wasting space with that monster Enter key.  Man that thing is huge.  Does it actuate slower since it's so massive?  Has it ever rebounded into your finger and jammed it with the additional mass of plastic it must be :- )

I will gain the extra key (or 2) in the shift-key-space when my new PCB comes in, but it'll still be a unix layout (1x+1x bckspc), I'll just take advantage of the options for additional 1x's in the other locations...

Offline mode

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5060 on: Thu, 16 July 2020, 10:35:22 »
Why is that move desirable though? Having `~ and \| near the shift keys is preferable for me. I hate reaching up to R1 when using ANSI boards.

you must be ISO, you're still wasting space with that monster Enter key.  Man that thing is huge.  Does it actuate slower since it's so massive?  Has it ever rebounded into your finger and jammed it with the additional mass of plastic it must be :- )

I will gain the extra key (or 2) in the shift-key-space when my new PCB comes in, but it'll still be a unix layout (1x+1x bckspc), I'll just take advantage of the options for additional 1x's in the other locations...

nicely dodged answering my question there :p

ISO indeed. ISO enter isn’t about efficiency, it’s about satisfaction. I can adapt to ansi fine, but ansi enter will just never be as satisfying.
« Last Edit: Thu, 16 July 2020, 10:57:16 by mode »

Offline downtownHippie

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5061 on: Thu, 16 July 2020, 12:07:00 »
nicely dodged answering my question there :p

ISO indeed. ISO enter isn’t about efficiency, it’s about satisfaction. I can adapt to ansi fine, but ansi enter will just never be as satisfying.

I don't have any experience with the ISO layout so I can't really comment relative to the locations of \| and `~.  And I don't know where you put your ESC key, but that's much more than an R1 reach - ESC may not a big key in the Windows world, but it's huge if you're an old school UNIX user and live in vi(m), and have vi keybindings on your command-line shell editing.  I give 60% users crap but only because I want the inverted-t and editing keys for the GUI world, but when I'm doing my UNIX thing...it's all inside the 60% frame.  Back in the day I used a VT220 keyboard, I typed cntrl-[ instead of ESC and lived well inside the 60% frame.

being a Sun/UNIX layout user, my selection of keyboard options is so limited it's easy to pick on other peoples choices - you have choices in the first place.  The spot in the world where I stand is sooooooooo tiny it's hard to throw sh__ at me.  And I'll drop this every time:


Offline AJM

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5062 on: Thu, 16 July 2020, 14:12:58 »
...you must be ISO, you're still wasting space with that monster Enter key. ....

If ISO is wasting space, how is it possible that it has one key more than ANSI?  :p

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5063 on: Thu, 16 July 2020, 17:17:07 »
Has [ISO Enter] ever rebounded into your finger and jammed it with the additional mass of plastic it must be :- )
Ditto about Left Shift. :-þ

At least in Cherry profile, a 2.25u Left Shift keycap does actually have more mass than a ISO Enter keycap.
« Last Edit: Thu, 16 July 2020, 17:23:03 by Findecanor »
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Offline m0rtem

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5064 on: Thu, 16 July 2020, 18:41:05 »
I don't get the love for anything smaller than a tenkeyless. That's all I can contribute ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Offline yui

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5065 on: Fri, 17 July 2020, 02:54:05 »
i guess my unpopular opinion is my love for Atlantis iso (a cross of a US layout with iso enter and the shorter shift key) it seems to be very disliked by most peoples who use iso though.
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Offline mode

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5066 on: Fri, 17 July 2020, 03:22:10 »
i guess my unpopular opinion is my love for Atlantis iso (a cross of a US layout with iso enter and the shorter shift key) it seems to be very disliked by most peoples who use iso though.

I've never heard of this term, nor can I find anything in google about it. Sounds like UK Macintosh layout. It's ANSI with an ISO return \| iin the nook of the return, `~ next to left shift and §± next to 1!

It's a great layout, I wish it were more popular, R4 `~ is never included in group buys :(

Offline yui

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5067 on: Fri, 17 July 2020, 03:59:11 »
i've seen it referred a few times in IC as Atlantis iso when it is not quite enough for UK iso, my M122 from unicomp is like that but then it is unicomp, they make any layout under the sun and then some more, i never used a mac so i am very unfamiliar with their layout. mine does have `~ next to the one and a black key next to shift (\| on windows <> on debian)
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline mode

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5068 on: Fri, 17 July 2020, 04:24:06 »
i've seen it referred a few times in IC as Atlantis iso when it is not quite enough for UK iso, my M122 from unicomp is like that but then it is unicomp, they make any layout under the sun and then some more, i never used a mac so i am very unfamiliar with their layout. mine does have `~ next to the one and a black key next to shift (\| on windows <> on debian)

https://deskthority.net/wiki/images/1/18/AEKII-front.jpg

Like so. `~ is a printing error though, that backslash is a `. Apple weirdly stuck with this printing error for the UK AEK for no obvious reason, despite other european layouts getting it right like dutch.

Offline bliss

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5069 on: Fri, 17 July 2020, 05:33:03 »
i guess my unpopular opinion is my love for Atlantis iso (a cross of a US layout with iso enter and the shorter shift key) it seems to be very disliked by most peoples who use iso though.

I've never heard of this term, nor can I find anything in google about it. Sounds like UK Macintosh layout. It's ANSI with an ISO return \| iin the nook of the return, `~ next to left shift and §± next to 1!

It's a great layout, I wish it were more popular, R4 `~ is never included in group buys :(

We like to refer to it as 'partial British support' instead.

It is a mix of US over ISO and the UK layout, usually with #~ next to Enter and \| next to Shift. Notably, neither layout is completed by pBs and therefore it is an in-between 'Atlantic' solution.

Its popularity seems to come from the fact that it (pBs) avoids duplicate legends. However, a correct US implementation with \| next to the Enter key and <> next to the Shift key (terminal style) avoids the duplicate \| also and should be preferred over pBs.

Read more about the topic here:
http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/Why-Do-Keycap-Sets-have-so-many-Copies-of-the-Backslash-Pipe-Key/
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Offline Muchacho

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5070 on: Fri, 31 July 2020, 09:18:25 »
- The use of Discord as information feed is obscuring all the info for posterity. Nobody will be able to find all the useful information provided from any search engine. So it's basically dead information after a month or so. Where it can live forever on a forum.

- IC and GB runners are pretty bad to write information on there first page. One question can be asked 10 times in a thread and no FAQ will be written in the first page (which does not really mater most of the case because people don't read them fully before asking questions...).

Offline h40

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5071 on: Fri, 31 July 2020, 18:09:41 »
- The use of Discord as information feed is obscuring all the info for posterity. Nobody will be able to find all the useful information provided from any search engine. So it's basically dead information after a month or so. Where it can live forever on a forum.

- IC and GB runners are pretty bad to write information on there first page. One question can be asked 10 times in a thread and no FAQ will be written in the first page (which does not really mater most of the case because people don't read them fully before asking questions...).

I've found Discord search functionality is actually pretty robust, though it isn't global across multiple servers. Also perhaps I'm an idiot but the geekhack search is garbage in my experience.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5072 on: Sat, 01 August 2020, 07:45:05 »

the geekhack search is garbage in my experience.


I am atypical, I don't use social media and have never even attempted to search on something like reddit or dischord.

That said, I also find almost any search frustrating if "how you ask the question" is critical. But, as a long-time geekhack, user I am usually able to put a geekhack search into a more comprehensive context and find what I need.
Were our leaders just stupid? Well, maybe. But there’s a deeper explanation of the profoundly self-destructive behavior of Trump and his allies: They were all members of America’s cult of selfishness. You see, the modern US right is committed to the proposition that greed is good, that we’re all better off when individuals engage in the untrammeled pursuit of self-interest. In their vision, unrestricted profit maximization by businesses and unregulated consumer choice is the recipe for a good society.
Support for this proposition is, if anything, more emotional than intellectual. I’ve long been struck by the intensity of right-wing anger against relatively trivial regulations, like bans on phosphates in detergent and efficiency standards for light bulbs. It’s the principle of the thing: Many on the right are enraged at any suggestion that their actions should take other people’s welfare into account. This rage is sometimes portrayed as love of freedom. But people who insist on the right to pollute are notably unbothered by, say, federal agents tear-gassing peaceful protesters. What they call “freedom” is actually absence of responsibility.
Rational policy in a pandemic, however, is all about taking responsibility. The main reason you shouldn’t go to a bar and should wear a mask isn’t self-protection, although that’s part of it; the point is that congregating in noisy, crowded spaces or exhaling droplets into shared air puts others at risk. And that’s the kind of thing America’s right just hates, hates to hear. Anger at any suggestion of social responsibility also helps explain the looming fiscal catastrophe.  – Paul Krugman 2020-07-28 NYT

Offline Muchacho

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5073 on: Sat, 01 August 2020, 07:54:47 »
- The use of Discord as information feed is obscuring all the info for posterity. Nobody will be able to find all the useful information provided from any search engine. So it's basically dead information after a month or so. Where it can live forever on a forum.

- IC and GB runners are pretty bad to write information on there first page. One question can be asked 10 times in a thread and no FAQ will be written in the first page (which does not really mater most of the case because people don't read them fully before asking questions...).

I've found Discord search functionality is actually pretty robust, though it isn't global across multiple servers. Also perhaps I'm an idiot but the geekhack search is garbage in my experience.

Yes geekhack search is definitely garbage, but I found hundreds and hundreds of pages and a lot of useful information when I searched things via Google.

If I didn't found any information I wouldn't came across the website, or at least I wouldn't find it interesting, and I wouldn't have join. The more Discord is used the more geekhack is being deprecated.

That said, no one really care on Geekhack. Geekhack seems to be a relic of the past anyway, only exist because there is no proper alternative yet and above all because the community is already massive.

Offline funkmon

  • Posts: 290
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5074 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 01:34:08 »
How dare you. This is an unpopular opinion thread, but I didn't expect to be personally attacked! :P

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5075 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 01:56:36 »
- The use of Discord as information feed is obscuring all the info for posterity. Nobody will be able to find all the useful information provided from any search engine. So it's basically dead information after a month or so. Where it can live forever on a forum.

- IC and GB runners are pretty bad to write information on there first page. One question can be asked 10 times in a thread and no FAQ will be written in the first page (which does not really mater most of the case because people don't read them fully before asking questions...).

I've found Discord search functionality is actually pretty robust, though it isn't global across multiple servers. Also perhaps I'm an idiot but the geekhack search is garbage in my experience.

I think the point is that Discord is invisible from the main search engines like Google or Duckduckgo. Which is the way that most people on the internet search for information.

Most people don't use Discord, so for most people, information there is walled off and nonexistent.

Most forums don't have good search functionality, the standard way to fix this is just do a Google search with the "site:geekhack.org" parameter added.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5076 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 11:11:47 »
Geekhack seems to be a relic of the past anyway, only exist because there is no proper alternative yet and above all because the community is already massive.

Now there's a real unpopular opinion. I have a feeling that few will agree with that one. It is like a breath of fresh air to me to have a real forum around that's so active. More modern alternatives are usually very poorly organized, information flows in and out like water, never to be seen again (Reddit), waste endless resources on hideous/useless cosmetic flourishes and infuriating menu systems, or a combination of the above. For what they're meant to do, there's nothing better than an oldschool forum.

Do a lot of people even use the Discord? I never have. I can't think of many reasons why I would, though I use it every day to talk to friends. Discord is basically a glorified instant messenger. Its purpose is entirely different from a forum.

Offline mode

  • Posts: 286
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5077 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 12:00:39 »
Geekhack seems to be a relic of the past anyway, only exist because there is no proper alternative yet and above all because the community is already massive.

Now there's a real unpopular opinion. I have a feeling that few will agree with that one. It is like a breath of fresh air to me to have a real forum around that's so active. More modern alternatives are usually very poorly organized, information flows in and out like water, never to be seen again (Reddit), waste endless resources on hideous/useless cosmetic flourishes and infuriating menu systems, or a combination of the above. For what they're meant to do, there's nothing better than an oldschool forum.

Do a lot of people even use the Discord? I never have. I can't think of many reasons why I would, though I use it every day to talk to friends. Discord is basically a glorified instant messenger. Its purpose is entirely different from a forum.

Agreed. It's a pleasing small oasis that reminds me of forums I spent time on 15 years ago. Who remembers a reddit user name that isn't a famous meme account? it's totally impersonal. I've no interest in discord.

I'm happy for geekhack and deskthority to stay small, and have people interested in more than whatever the next trendy chocolate box four figure custom is.

Offline Muchacho

  • Posts: 16
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5078 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 13:04:00 »
Geekhack seems to be a relic of the past anyway, only exist because there is no proper alternative yet and above all because the community is already massive.

Now there's a real unpopular opinion. I have a feeling that few will agree with that one. It is like a breath of fresh air to me to have a real forum around that's so active. More modern alternatives are usually very poorly organized, information flows in and out like water, never to be seen again (Reddit), waste endless resources on hideous/useless cosmetic flourishes and infuriating menu systems, or a combination of the above. For what they're meant to do, there's nothing better than an oldschool forum.

Do a lot of people even use the Discord? I never have. I can't think of many reasons why I would, though I use it every day to talk to friends. Discord is basically a glorified instant messenger. Its purpose is entirely different from a forum.

GeekHack is to me the best place to look for something, while I kind of agree with you on the organisation and the newer alternatives, not seeing the weakness is definitely being blind (as not seeing its strength).

As a newcomer here is the points I would work if I was handling the forum:

- Enable users to put a status on a thread, so we know for sure if a Interest Check is still ongoing or dead, or moved into a GB, we would also know if a GB is still active of ended, we could reopen a GB and mark it as a second round etc. Any user should also be able to "request a change" so the moderators can change it accordingly.

Currently all we have is a title change, that is never really changed often, a dead GB has the same place as a running GB and a fulfilled GB. This is truly exhausting while navigating.

- A better search engine, this a total waste, the point of a database is to be able to do queries, every single message are stored into a database.

- We don't know right away if we already click in a thread or not, I'm more interested in new threads than already visited ones. Even if it was the opposite I should be able to discriminate those two.

- Since the forum is old, we should have enforced some requirement when submitting a GB, every single time the same question appears "is it WK, WKL, ISO, ANSI only ?" Even if OP does not know yet, we should be able to get rid of all those pollution (the question itself is legitimate, but the fact that we see the question a dozen of time on one thread is not).

I know GeekHack is "just" a forum, but the point mentioned above are totally realistic.

Unrelated to GeekHack, and in my view, there is a lack of "unified database", there is no way to search for a specific keyboard, set of keycaps, having the release date, the specification etc. Where to buy ISO keyboards, ISO keycaps etc.

deskthority.net tried, but it's pretty much dead because it's in a form of a wiki, or because the community is dead.

I do believe it's because the hobby is still new, but there is nothing preventing something better to appear now.

[...] Its purpose is entirely different from a forum.

People are requesting a Discord link on every single topic. I don't like Discord for the reasons mentioned above but this is not true. People go to Discord to have update for GBs, it's the main form of updates for some people, even though this is not why Discord has been made.

Some functionality are different but some are similar. It's a place where you can discuss and exchange information.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5079 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 13:19:58 »

I do believe it's because the hobby is still new


I am kind of scratching my head reading your comments. Perhaps I am atypical (no perhaps about it) but I really don't think of "buying stuff" as being the reason that the forum exists.

To me, this is a forum for "discussing stuff" and although there is certainly buying and selling going on around the periphery, that is not the primary purpose of the forum.

And, also, the hobby and the forum were well-established when I started almost a decade ago.
Were our leaders just stupid? Well, maybe. But there’s a deeper explanation of the profoundly self-destructive behavior of Trump and his allies: They were all members of America’s cult of selfishness. You see, the modern US right is committed to the proposition that greed is good, that we’re all better off when individuals engage in the untrammeled pursuit of self-interest. In their vision, unrestricted profit maximization by businesses and unregulated consumer choice is the recipe for a good society.
Support for this proposition is, if anything, more emotional than intellectual. I’ve long been struck by the intensity of right-wing anger against relatively trivial regulations, like bans on phosphates in detergent and efficiency standards for light bulbs. It’s the principle of the thing: Many on the right are enraged at any suggestion that their actions should take other people’s welfare into account. This rage is sometimes portrayed as love of freedom. But people who insist on the right to pollute are notably unbothered by, say, federal agents tear-gassing peaceful protesters. What they call “freedom” is actually absence of responsibility.
Rational policy in a pandemic, however, is all about taking responsibility. The main reason you shouldn’t go to a bar and should wear a mask isn’t self-protection, although that’s part of it; the point is that congregating in noisy, crowded spaces or exhaling droplets into shared air puts others at risk. And that’s the kind of thing America’s right just hates, hates to hear. Anger at any suggestion of social responsibility also helps explain the looming fiscal catastrophe.  – Paul Krugman 2020-07-28 NYT

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5080 on: Tue, 04 August 2020, 14:18:27 »
Geekhack seems to be a relic of the past anyway, only exist because there is no proper alternative yet and above all because the community is already massive.

Now there's a real unpopular opinion. I have a feeling that few will agree with that one. It is like a breath of fresh air to me to have a real forum around that's so active. More modern alternatives are usually very poorly organized, information flows in and out like water, never to be seen again (Reddit), waste endless resources on hideous/useless cosmetic flourishes and infuriating menu systems, or a combination of the above. For what they're meant to do, there's nothing better than an oldschool forum.

Do a lot of people even use the Discord? I never have. I can't think of many reasons why I would, though I use it every day to talk to friends. Discord is basically a glorified instant messenger. Its purpose is entirely different from a forum.

GeekHack is to me the best place to look for something, while I kind of agree with you on the organisation and the newer alternatives, not seeing the weakness is definitely being blind (as not seeing its strength).

I feel that we'll find that we may disagree on most of what is and is not a weakness.

As a newcomer here is the points I would work if I was handling the forum:

- Enable users to put a status on a thread, so we know for sure if a Interest Check is still ongoing or dead, or moved into a GB, we would also know if a GB is still active of ended, we could reopen a GB and mark it as a second round etc. Any user should also be able to "request a change" so the moderators can change it accordingly.

Currently all we have is a title change, that is never really changed often, a dead GB has the same place as a running GB and a fulfilled GB. This is truly exhausting while navigating.

Rule 3 from the group buys rules sticky is as follows:

Quote from: tsangan
Thread Closure: We understand that group buy threads are useful for much longer than classifieds threads. However, we would like to ensure that very old group buy threads for buys that have been completed for a significant amount of time are not bumped and occupying space that could be used by active interest checks or buys in the ordering stage. To this end, we would like group buy organizers to close their threads after items have been received and sufficient time has passed. When everyone has received their items, are happy with them, and there's no more business to be done on the buy, please close your thread. We will not be exceedingly strict about this rule, but may close threads that that are bumped out of the group buy graveyard of the last forum pages.


I would argue that a forum is maybe not an ideal place for group buys to begin with, but is there anything that's insufficient about the author of a thread putting something like "[closed]" in the title of a thread, locking the thread, and letting it rapidly fade from the front page of results that is insufficient? There is also already a "Report to moderator" link in the bottom right of every single post in a thread. Everything you mentioned seems to be accounted for when group buys are run responsibly.

I have barely even looked at that section though, so take that for whatever use it may be in practice. It just sounds to me like thread authors just aren't doing their due diligence if this is actually a problem ... which would still be a problem with any related changes.

- A better search engine, this a total waste, the point of a database is to be able to do queries, every single message are stored into a database.

You've got an objective point here. The search engine is not ideal. I think some would argue that any integrated search engine is pointless when you can easily do site searches from dedicated search engines that are already much more powerful/refined (Some websites used to integrate Google site searches into their websites instead of dedicated search tools. This worked perfectly. I'm not sure if it is still done.). I would be inclined to agree with them, personally, but a better search engine obviously has merits.

- We don't know right away if we already click in a thread or not, I'm more interested in new threads than already visited ones. Even if it was the opposite I should be able to discriminate those two.

Are you using some sort of strange theme? The title of every single thread I have already viewed with the default theme has a slightly darker hue of orange than those that I have not. If there's been a response since I last viewed it, it reverts to the unread color. This, again, is coming from someone who generally does not care at all about group buys and/or fads/trends. If I see a title that I find interesting, I click on it, if I do not ... I do not. If it was interesting the last time I clicked on it, I usually remember whether or not I have and decide whether or not to read new replies (I generally never even use the notify or watch buttons manually).

Now, I could conceive of this not being applicable to everyone, or all current uses of this forum. This, as well, makes me wonder whether or not they're well-suited to a forum, whatever they may be. What are situations in which this is insufficient? How would you improve the current system?

- Since the forum is old, we should have enforced some requirement when submitting a GB, every single time the same question appears "is it WK, WKL, ISO, ANSI only ?" Even if OP does not know yet, we should be able to get rid of all those pollution (the question itself is legitimate, but the fact that we see the question a dozen of time on one thread is not).

A list of messages is a list of messages. You would think that if it were asked once, the OP would update the first post to clarify. What is it that you're seeing as an inherent problem with the format? How would you improve this? Would you prefer something sort of like Reddit's nested comments? I could see this being potentially sort of helpful in this very limited scenario, if actually executed much better than it is on Reddit, since the way that navigation through such nested comments on Reddit is handled is so clunky that I often don't even dig very deeply into replies chained onto others, and you still end up seeing comments that essentially say the exact same thing as others ... because people still don't bother to read all of the previous unique comments.

I know GeekHack is "just" a forum, but the point mentioned above are totally realistic.

I wouldn't even say that GeekHack is "just" a forum. Forums are wonderful for exactly what they are. Some may be slightly better or worse than others in layout and function, but simple function and usability is part of their design philosophy and purpose.

Unrelated to GeekHack, and in my view, there is a lack of "unified database", there is no way to search for a specific keyboard, set of keycaps, having the release date, the specification etc. Where to buy ISO keyboards, ISO keycaps etc.

deskthority.net tried, but it's pretty much dead because it's in a form of a wiki, or because the community is dead.

I quite like wikis. Is there something wrong with that format? I don't think Deskthority is dead, it just focuses almost entirely on vintage boards from what I have read, and seen. I don't even have an account on there, ironically, (and correct me if I'm wrong) but it seems to me that people there generally don't care about the latest limited-run colorways, artisans, etc. The wiki is filled with fantastic information about vintage boards, and that's not really something that needs updating. I do believe that a wiki for GeekHack was ... attempted.


[...] Its purpose is entirely different from a forum.

People are requesting a Discord link on every single topic. I don't like Discord for the reasons mentioned above but this is not true. People go to Discord to have update for GBs, it's the main form of updates for some people, even though this is not why Discord has been made.

Some functionality are different but some are similar. It's a place where you can discuss and exchange information.

We must be looking in very different places. I rarely ever see any mention of a Discord server for GeekHack. I usually forget it exists at all. Group buys must explain that. I rarely ever look there.

You can discuss and exchange information by mail, even telegraph if there are still functioning lines somewhere. That doesn't make it relatively comparable to Discord (an instant messenger), or a forum, or social media, or a town hall meeting, etc.

It is curious that anybody would gravitate towards Discord for group buy updates. Maybe just because they have accounts and are always monitoring their activity? That seems like a worse platform for group buys than a forum, which I don't think fits that well to begin with.


I do believe it's because the hobby is still new

I am kind of scratching my head reading your comments. Perhaps I am atypical (no perhaps about it) but I really don't think of "buying stuff" as being the reason that the forum exists.

To me, this is a forum for "discussing stuff" and although there is certainly buying and selling going on around the periphery, that is not the primary purpose of the forum.

And, also, the hobby and the forum were well-established when I started almost a decade ago.

Yes, agreed on all counts. There's discussion of what to buy, where, etc, but then that can lead literally anywhere from there to make the actual purchase. This is all leading me more and more towards thinking that this is a group buy vs forum thing, and that they don't really even mesh perfectly to begin with in terms of purpose.
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 August 2020, 14:26:03 by Maledicted »