Author Topic: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions  (Read 644834 times)

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Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4800 on: Thu, 19 March 2020, 20:56:41 »

All I think about when typing with browns is how terrible they feel. I don't think about anything else.

I also dislike Cherry MX in general, so that can't help. I used Cherry MX Reds exclusively for the first few years of my mechanical experience. I think I always mashed them until they bottom out, just with less force when I was adjusted to their springs, and I still don't look back fondly on the typing experience other that it felt better than cheap rubber domes.

That's an entirely legitimate perspective. Truth is, Browns often feel bad on an individual basis. And that can detract from the entire typing experience. Cherry really should have tried harder to 1. eliminate scratchiness / grittiness 2. eliminate ping and 3. lube those switches. For starters.

Stock Cherry switches can be terrible in general, although that's not necessarily an unpopular opinion around here.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4801 on: Fri, 20 March 2020, 07:53:49 »
Plate mount stabs are superior  :-X ;D

I'm no stabilizer connoisseur, though I know I seem to prefer Costar to Cherry. Those are both plate-mounted, are they not? What alternative is there? Even the stabilizers in buckling spring boards should technically be plate-mounted, right?

Truth is, Browns often feel bad on an individual basis. And that can detract from the entire typing experience. Cherry really should have tried harder to 1. eliminate scratchiness / grittiness 2. eliminate ping and 3. lube those switches. For starters.

Agreed

Offline Sintpinty

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4802 on: Fri, 20 March 2020, 20:41:05 »
I'm using some box navies for typing at home, but I still don't mind using even Cherry MX Red. Browns just feel terrible to me, and aren't tactile enough to be worth being tactile at all in light of this. I certainly haven't tried lubed ones though.

Again, they're only really meant to be barely noticeably tactile, since they were originally designed as an "ergo" option.  Lubing them or just wearing them in for a few months makes them much nicer to use though.

Exactly this. A lot of people seem to miss the point of MX browns. They aren't meant to be the most tactile thing in the world nor the smoothest (blame cherry molds for that), but properly tuned/lubed they're some of the nicest switch for typists with good form.

I understanding disliking MX browns if you've tried all the popular switches plus their tuned/lubed counterparts, at that point it's just personal preference. It is, however, a bit sad to see people bash brown switches just because they're readily available and not as tactile as some other existing switches (and somehow, making them bad? lol).
I genuinely know linear switches that are more tactile than MX Brown.

chyros moment

chyros moment

chyros moment

chyros moment

chyros moment gives off the same energy as shaded avatar moment

But yeah browns feel almost the same as reds

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4803 on: Sat, 21 March 2020, 11:31:57 »
chyros moment gives off the same energy as shaded avatar moment

But yeah browns feel almost the same as reds

I think Chyros' description of them is apt, browns feel like scratchy reds. I'm sorry Dale.

Offline DrivenKeys

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4804 on: Wed, 25 March 2020, 05:59:10 »
The Das x50q is an incredible keyboard, hobbled by terrible software support. I'm usually a heavy switch and Model M lover, but the Omron switches are a lot of fun, once you get used to the very subtle benefits. It's very sturdy, the lighting is extremely well done, and their engineers put a lot of unique quality into its design. Most of their gear is overpriced, but a refurbished x50q is cheaper than many cherry boards that feel lesser quality. Once the firmware is updated, as long as you like the handful of stock colors, the x50q is quite a steal.
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Offline jacethesaltsculptor

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4805 on: Wed, 25 March 2020, 21:50:55 »
chyros moment gives off the same energy as shaded avatar moment

But yeah browns feel almost the same as reds

I think Chyros' description of them is apt, browns feel like scratchy reds. I'm sorry Dale.

I always describe them to friends as dirty reds, because they feel like they have grit in them. I'm always surprised by how many people like them. I don't think I'm the kind of people those switches had in mind.

I've always wanted to try Omrons, I've only heard good things about them.

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Offline chyros

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4806 on: Thu, 26 March 2020, 04:03:29 »
chyros moment gives off the same energy as shaded avatar moment

But yeah browns feel almost the same as reds

I think Chyros' description of them is apt, browns feel like scratchy reds. I'm sorry Dale.

I always describe them to friends as dirty reds, because they feel like they have grit in them. I'm always surprised by how many people like them. I don't think I'm the kind of people those switches had in mind.

I've always wanted to try Omrons, I've only heard good things about them.
They're good, but super unreliable xD .
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline Avi_

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4807 on: Thu, 26 March 2020, 10:30:55 »
Here's a potentially unpopular opinion: MX Browns are not good or bad, they just have a logic of their own.

I agree with what you said about the MX Browns fully. Very well put. When I type on Browns and try to enjoy it, it does not work. They are not enjoyable. But when I do work using Browns, I sometimes notice how quick and effortlessly I type, compared to other types of switches that I actually enjoy (Box Pinks, for example).

At some point I decided to replace the MX Browns on my Leopold board with something else, but later I realized that Browns have their use. It's what you described in your post.

Offline jacethesaltsculptor

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4808 on: Thu, 26 March 2020, 10:38:14 »
They're good, but super unreliable xD .

You did a review of those didn't you? I should give it a watch.

Here's a potentially unpopular opinion: MX Browns are not good or bad, they just have a logic of their own.

I agree with what you said about the MX Browns fully. Very well put. When I type on Browns and try to enjoy it, it does not work. They are not enjoyable. But when I do work using Browns, I sometimes notice how quick and effortlessly I type, compared to other types of switches that I actually enjoy (Box Pinks, for example).

At some point I decided to replace the MX Browns on my Leopold board with something else, but later I realized that Browns have their use. It's what you described in your post.

I think that sums it up well. Although you did make me think, I probably should try using Browns in a work capacity, using things during work has changed my mind on a lot of things over the years. 5 minutes of playing with a switch tester doesn't always cut it.
« Last Edit: Thu, 26 March 2020, 16:26:09 by jacethesaltsculptor »

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Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4809 on: Thu, 26 March 2020, 15:57:06 »


At some point I decided to replace the MX Browns on my Leopold board with something else, but later I realized that Browns have their use. It's what you described in your post.

Yes, they were meant to be non-distracting and stay out-of-the-way, I think.

There wouldn't be so many complaints about them if they were smoother out-of-the-box and called "Ergo Soft" (as they once were) instead of "tactile."

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4810 on: Sat, 18 April 2020, 21:58:18 »
I think I've found your problem. You haven't tried Alps
To be fair, many here also havenít tried ergo clears, especially the new comers - who will all believe that the Holy Panda and the zero pre-travel switch is the ultimate tactile feeling switch.

The v1 zeal switch was an easy way to attain ergo clear like feel without the effort of modding them yourself (even then, I think ergo clears are nicer) - but they are discontinued now.

I donít know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but as a typist and developer, I find the force curve ofHoly Pandas horrendous to type on.

Itís great when you type on them individually, they perform great on a switch tester - but for typing all day everyday, lubed ergo clears are the best tactile experience, not this zero pre-travel false messiah that has taken our community by storm.

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4811 on: Sun, 19 April 2020, 11:58:10 »
Ergo Clears take full advantage of the Cherry tactile mechanism and the advantage of mechanical keyboards. That is, there is a lead-in to the [very noticeable] tactile bump, which is rounded with a definite beginning and end. You can choose to bottom-out the switch, or just skip onto the next one.

So you can hit your definite tactile bump while leading into it fairly smoothly. You do so without needing the large energy to overcome a giant, top-mounted tactile event as in the latest round of tactile switches. And you can repeat this keypress over and over again, very quickly, without tiring.

I'm typing on Ergo Clears right now, and even though these ones have an actuation weight 5 gr higher than I would prefer, I still type on them about 3 WPM faster than on MX Browns.

If properly-lubed, the Ergo Clears won't be excessively scratchy, and will even have a semi-thocky sound. So they are an 'acceptable' Cherry tactile switch.

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4812 on: Sun, 19 April 2020, 15:38:25 »

If properly-lubed, the Ergo Clears won't be excessively scratchy, and will even have a semi-thocky sound. So they are an 'acceptable' Cherry tactile switch.
Music to my ears - whatís your lubing process of choice for ergo clears?

Should we take this discussion to a new thread?

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4813 on: Sun, 19 April 2020, 18:34:17 »
PM Sent.

Offline DALExSNAIL

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4814 on: Mon, 20 April 2020, 07:32:25 »
Bi-monthly opinion reminder that I don't like alps, and I love Cherry browns.  :thumb:

Offline mpro

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4815 on: Tue, 21 April 2020, 19:38:24 »
My unpopular opinion is that there is some validity to finding a decent gaming switch. I'm in search of something as responsive as MX silvers, but without the faster activation (1.3mm) and shallower key fee.

Offline flurryvelvet

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4816 on: Wed, 22 April 2020, 00:29:08 »
ALPS SKCL switches are more tactile than Cherry MX Browns.  :thumb:

Offline chyros

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4817 on: Wed, 22 April 2020, 08:49:13 »
ALPS SKCL switches are more tactile than Cherry MX Browns.  :thumb:
That's not an opinion, that's a fact :p .
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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4818 on: Wed, 22 April 2020, 09:14:19 »
My unpopular opinion is that there is some validity to finding a decent gaming switch. I'm in search of something as responsive as MX silvers, but without the faster activation (1.3mm) and shallower key fee.

So, Cherry MX red? Is that actually an unpopular opinion though? I know some crazy people game with Model Ms. I think the most tactile thing I would ever use is box whites, unless I ever experience a tactile (other than Alps) that I like. As much as I love my clickies, I don't know that I would want a bunch of clicking going on as I played something. I would like something that falls more between reds and blacks myself. Reds are too light if you ask me, and blacks are too heavy for a linear.

ALPS SKCL switches are more tactile than Cherry MX Browns.  :thumb:
That's not an opinion, that's a fact :p .

Let's not antagonize poor Dale. I do agree though, if they're a little dirty.

Offline logo4poop

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4819 on: Thu, 23 April 2020, 13:12:24 »
For what it is, GMK sets are pretty well priced.
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Offline typo

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4820 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 09:34:59 »
I am going to go against the grain here and defend what I feel is a highly underrated keyboard of any kind. Topre/HHKB! My favorite board in the world. So much so I spent $$$ making cases and modding the heck out of them. Now there is absolutely nothing that can be complained about IMO!

Edited. there is one issue with Topre and cherry stems and GMK caps I mentioned elsewhere. Very stiff. I keep typing "I" and end up with "i" upsetting. completely ruins my WPM to go back and fix all that. I do not understand why it is only the "I" key? How odd.
« Last Edit: Fri, 24 April 2020, 09:43:41 by typo »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4821 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 09:57:37 »
I am going to go against the grain here and defend what I feel is a highly underrated keyboard of any kind. Topre/HHKB! My favorite board in the world. So much so I spent $$$ making cases and modding the heck out of them. Now there is absolutely nothing that can be complained about IMO!

Edited. there is one issue with Topre and cherry stems and GMK caps I mentioned elsewhere. Very stiff. I keep typing "I" and end up with "i" upsetting. completely ruins my WPM to go back and fix all that. I do not understand why it is only the "I" key? How odd.

Isn't there a lot of love for Topre and the HHKB layout? It seems to me that that's actually a very popular opinion.

Offline typo

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4822 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 15:45:48 »
It seems like people are hating on them now?

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4823 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 16:03:37 »
It seems like people are hating on them now?

Maybe, but a lot of people like them too. I would say that it can be divisive. A lot of people seem to love HHKB, as there's a market built just around the layout, and a lot of people find it intolerable. I think the same is the case for Topre, although to a lesser degree, since Topre seems to kind of fit into a niche that many would never have any interest in to begin with, whether or not they would even like or dislike them for their intrinsic pros and cons.

I don't know how that would only happen with i, unless, being that you say it is due to stiffness, and that you're a touch typist, how about if you try the * symbol by pressing shift and 8, with your middle finger? It sounds to me like you use the right shift key, and may be stretching to reach both the shift key and the i key with the same hand and may not be registering both.

Offline heyitsqi

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4824 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 20:09:22 »
Ergodox's need to have a stabilized thumb cluster or make it smaller.

Offline typo

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4825 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 22:57:56 »
Your right mal'. Use the left shift? It is too far away? Or use the lock? I do not understand shift and "*"? It renders just that, not "I". I think it is the actuation. I am making many mistypes now. AFAIK there is no way to tell what actuation point you are on? Sorry for OT.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4826 on: Fri, 24 April 2020, 23:27:53 »
Your right mal'. Use the left shift? It is too far away? Or use the lock? I do not understand shift and "*"? It renders just that, not "I". I think it is the actuation. I am making many mistypes now. AFAIK there is no way to tell what actuation point you are on? Sorry for OT.

Shift and the 8 key, in the alphanumeric cluster, which should result in *. Do you usually use the left or right shift? My guess was the right, and that you're stretching your right hand across the board to reach far-reaching keys while simultaneously trying to capitalize them with the right shift key. If you're indeed using right shift, just take a moment and look at how spread out your fingers might be, and at what angle, when reaching for i, 8, etc, and right shift at the same time. It makes me wonder that, in conjunction with very stiff keys, you may not be actuating shift once you do actuate i, resulting in a lower case i when you meant for it to be upper case.

Does that make sense?

Offline typo

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4827 on: Sat, 25 April 2020, 02:45:52 »
Isn't the right shift closer to 'I" than the left? I do not get it? Indeed If I type "finger style" like someone that does not know how to type I hit It every single time! It is me not actuating it! plus I am misfiring other words as well! Do you know how you tell what Actuation point you are on too? So I should be using the left shift? That is complete re-learn after 60+ years! Not going to be easy! Since I am used to 170 WPM. Now due to correcting typo's(no pun intended) I am only pulling 90 WPM! Huge difference! Either these caps go or I have to go MX unfortunately. You may be aware I will not take a pic of my board do to property copy right reasons but you should see this. I love this so much. I would hate to give this up. This is my Grail. I know it does not have an "actual" value but I would part with it for $65,000. Not kidding. Not because I just don't want to sell it either. I have that much parts and labor into it! Please do not start walie. Just leave me alone for once. I am mostly counting research and labor here. i do have really 8 grand of parts into it amazingly.  With the computer i had 100% intention of returning that. It really was spec'd that way but I had no intent whatsoever of that being my computer. i just wanted highest benchmark.

So I just need to know two things. 1, I use the left shift?
2, how do I know which actuation i am on?

OH, I get it! Left shift with left hand and I with right hand. Duh! I am so stupid. I was just stretching my hand. I am a freaking idiot! Could you imagine me with a split board LOL.
Now I just need to figure out actuation point. I figure how about read manual, double duh! I win the Idiot award this morning! At least I am on the way to typing even faster thanks to you!
Thank you!

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4828 on: Mon, 27 April 2020, 11:14:08 »
Partly so as to not completely derail this topic, but also because it came up in another thread anyway, I have one more potentially unpopular keyboard opinion:

Who cares if a metal case is cast or machined? One just objectively costs more money to do, and doesn't necessary result in a product of any higher quality.

Isn't the right shift closer to 'I" than the left? I do not get it? Indeed If I type "finger style" like someone that does not know how to type I hit It every single time! It is me not actuating it! plus I am misfiring other words as well! Do you know how you tell what Actuation point you are on too? So I should be using the left shift? That is complete re-learn after 60+ years! Not going to be easy! Since I am used to 170 WPM. Now due to correcting typo's(no pun intended) I am only pulling 90 WPM! Huge difference! Either these caps go or I have to go MX unfortunately. You may be aware I will not take a pic of my board do to property copy right reasons but you should see this. I love this so much. I would hate to give this up. This is my Grail. I know it does not have an "actual" value but I would part with it for $65,000. Not kidding. Not because I just don't want to sell it either. I have that much parts and labor into it! Please do not start walie. Just leave me alone for once. I am mostly counting research and labor here. i do have really 8 grand of parts into it amazingly.  With the computer i had 100% intention of returning that. It really was spec'd that way but I had no intent whatsoever of that being my computer. i just wanted highest benchmark.

So I just need to know two things. 1, I use the left shift?
2, how do I know which actuation i am on?

OH, I get it! Left shift with left hand and I with right hand. Duh! I am so stupid. I was just stretching my hand. I am a freaking idiot! Could you imagine me with a split board LOL.
Now I just need to figure out actuation point. I figure how about read manual, double duh! I win the Idiot award this morning! At least I am on the way to typing even faster thanks to you!
Thank you!

I believe you got what I meant, and that it was in fact the case. Just to be sure, here's a picture of what I meant:

240945-0

I type the same way, if that's what was happening. That's not normally a problem for me. I could see it being a problem if the keys were very stiff. I'm not saying to type any other way, just providing a possible explanation. With Topre, you can just swap the domes for something a bit lighter right? Maybe swap the domes for the modifier keys and be done with it.

Offline clankgy1

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4829 on: Mon, 27 April 2020, 12:02:36 »
I am going to go against the grain here and defend what I feel is a highly underrated keyboard of any kind. Topre/HHKB! My favorite board in the world. So much so I spent $$$ making cases and modding the heck out of them. Now there is absolutely nothing that can be complained about IMO!

Edited. there is one issue with Topre and cherry stems and GMK caps I mentioned elsewhere. Very stiff. I keep typing "I" and end up with "i" upsetting. completely ruins my WPM to go back and fix all that. I do not understand why it is only the "I" key? How odd.

Isn't there a lot of love for Topre and the HHKB layout? It seems to me that that's actually a very popular opinion.

I'm not sure one could find much disagreement about the stock feel of HHKB topre within the communuity.  Sure, people swap domes and lube them but they are doing so starting with a very solid foundation.

They are not perfect by any means, and I got rid of both of the ones I had for a few reasons:

- Layout issues - Putting the delete key where I am used to the pipe key was something I could not overcome.  More times than not, I would clip the return key while trying to backspace, and that was bad news for me as I spend a lot of time doing IM and Slack/Discord things for work and pleasure, where hitting return is a submit function.  Also, two 1.5u UI keys were completely unnecessary for my uses.

- Lack of remap - Sure one could put a Hasu controller in, but I had no interest in cracking open either one of my HHKBs apart as I had problems getting my Novatouch reassembled when trying to put silencing rings in it.

- Mini-USB - I hate this connector with a passion.

I've gone back to using a HHKB form factor with remapped keys on my Tokyo60.  Remaps/macros/layer changes are much easier as it supports VIA (and even QMK isn't that bad once I flashed the board a few times with it).  And 9009 had all the caps I needed to make my desired adjustments.  And it is USB-C!


« Last Edit: Mon, 27 April 2020, 12:16:36 by clankgy1 »
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Offline dusan

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4830 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 09:51:54 »
You don't reach to the Zen of keyboarding until you can type absolutely accurate and quiet. Modding your keyboard is good only if it helps you mod yourself.
TypeMatrix 2030 | Topre Type Heaven | Filco Majestouch w/Cherry MX blue | CM Storm QF w/Cherry MX green | Asus Echelon w/Cherry MX black | Filco Stingray w/Cherry MX LP red | Keyrchon K1 w/Gateron LP red.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4831 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 15:20:33 »
You don't reach to the Zen of keyboarding until you can type absolutely accurate and quiet. Modding your keyboard is good only if it helps you mod yourself.

I like clickies, so I'm doomed to never attain nirvana?

Offline dusan

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4832 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 04:51:15 »
You don't reach to the Zen of keyboarding until you can type absolutely accurate and quiet. Modding your keyboard is good only if it helps you mod yourself.

I like clickies, so I'm doomed to never attain nirvana?

If you hear only the click, not the sound of bottom out or the lift, you're already (or almost) there.

Actually trying to be gentle in typing forces me to concentrate. On every keystroke. And I find it easier on linear keyboards.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 May 2020, 04:55:30 by dusan »
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4833 on: Tue, 05 May 2020, 23:11:30 »
You don't reach to the Zen of keyboarding until you can type absolutely accurate and quiet. Modding your keyboard is good only if it helps you mod yourself.

I like clickies, so I'm doomed to never attain nirvana?

If you hear only the click, not the sound of bottom out or the lift, you're already (or almost) there.

Actually trying to be gentle in typing forces me to concentrate. On every keystroke. And I find it easier on linear keyboards.

You must be typing slow like that then..

Offline dusan

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4834 on: Wed, 06 May 2020, 14:02:08 »
You don't reach to the Zen of keyboarding until you can type absolutely accurate and quiet. Modding your keyboard is good only if it helps you mod yourself.

I like clickies, so I'm doomed to never attain nirvana?

If you hear only the click, not the sound of bottom out or the lift, you're already (or almost) there.

Actually trying to be gentle in typing forces me to concentrate. On every keystroke. And I find it easier on linear keyboards.

You must be typing slow like that then..

It's similar to driving a car. Once you're smooth, you'll be accurate. Once you're accurate, you'll go fast.
TypeMatrix 2030 | Topre Type Heaven | Filco Majestouch w/Cherry MX blue | CM Storm QF w/Cherry MX green | Asus Echelon w/Cherry MX black | Filco Stingray w/Cherry MX LP red | Keyrchon K1 w/Gateron LP red.

Offline funkmon

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4835 on: Wed, 06 May 2020, 20:05:59 »
Unpopular opinion:

The only reason rubber domes are bad is because they mush when you bottom out. I bottom out on every single keyboard I have ever used, and I like it. In fact, that's basically half the reason to even own a keyboard.

I would absolutely type with a highly tactile rubber dome that set off small nuclear bombs every time you bottom out. Like someone should hook up one of those old beamsprings with a solenoid to an HP piece of **** and I'm all over it.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4836 on: Wed, 06 May 2020, 22:49:33 »
You don't reach to the Zen of keyboarding until you can type absolutely accurate and quiet. Modding your keyboard is good only if it helps you mod yourself.

I like clickies, so I'm doomed to never attain nirvana?

If you hear only the click, not the sound of bottom out or the lift, you're already (or almost) there.

Actually trying to be gentle in typing forces me to concentrate. On every keystroke. And I find it easier on linear keyboards.

You must be typing slow like that then..

It's similar to driving a car. Once you're smooth, you'll be accurate. Once you're accurate, you'll go fast.

Wrong...Not bottoming out means you're giving up speed...

Prove me wrong.  Video you typing into the 100wpms without bottoming out.  I've seen people lightly bottom out but anyone on the journey to not bottoming out at all is giving up speed.  That's a fact..

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4837 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 05:16:43 »
I took delivery of some nice clean SKCL greens today, they are indeed more tactile than browns!

Pleasantly surprised by how nice and different they are to linearised pine alps, the spring feels quite different.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4838 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 12:44:22 »
I took delivery of some nice clean SKCL greens today, they are indeed more tactile than browns!

Pleasantly surprised by how nice and different they are to linearised pine alps, the spring feels quite different.

Wonderful, aren't they? I still feel that resurrecting complicated Alps would eventually kill MX (in the consumer market anyway), once caps, boards, etc, etc, became more common. With all of these wonderful new switch mechanisms coming out though, maybe it won't be very long before there are better options in all categories.

Offline cheesy_jones

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4839 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 14:01:50 »
I took delivery of some nice clean SKCL greens today, they are indeed more tactile than browns!

Pleasantly surprised by how nice and different they are to linearised pine alps, the spring feels quite different.

Wonderful, aren't they? I still feel that resurrecting complicated Alps would eventually kill MX (in the consumer market anyway), once caps, boards, etc, etc, became more common. With all of these wonderful new switch mechanisms coming out though, maybe it won't be very long before there are better options in all categories.

I am totally on board with that, but at the same time I am skeptical of that scenario. I am skeptical because so-called "Wintel" PCs beat Mac hardware back in the day for almost the same reason Cherry MX is winning now: they are everywhere, they are "good enough," and the clones are cheap. Jeez, a $50 Chinese board is not a bad value proposition, and you know it comes with Kaihl browns or, if we're getting crazy, some clicky blue switch or something. The keycap market alone will keep the Cherry mount viable for the next well, forever, if you ask me.

How about Alps-based switches with Cherry mounts? Now we're starting to have fun.

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4840 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 14:07:24 »
I don't really expect complicated alps to ever come back as much as we'd like them to, and it's for that reason that I've built up a hoard of various switches to last me a lifetime. They're just too complicated and the risk and cost of remanufacturing them and living up to the originals is just too great.

It's certainly an unpopular opinion but I fully take matias refusal to ever do it as evidence that it'll never happen. The commercial barrier to entry is just too great.

Happy to be proven wrong, and for my stash of switches to become worthless if cheap better alps recreations become available, but I can't see it happening.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4841 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 14:49:31 »
I took delivery of some nice clean SKCL greens today, they are indeed more tactile than browns!

Pleasantly surprised by how nice and different they are to linearised pine alps, the spring feels quite different.

Wonderful, aren't they? I still feel that resurrecting complicated Alps would eventually kill MX (in the consumer market anyway), once caps, boards, etc, etc, became more common. With all of these wonderful new switch mechanisms coming out though, maybe it won't be very long before there are better options in all categories.

I am totally on board with that, but at the same time I am skeptical of that scenario. I am skeptical because so-called "Wintel" PCs beat Mac hardware back in the day for almost the same reason Cherry MX is winning now: they are everywhere, they are "good enough," and the clones are cheap. Jeez, a $50 Chinese board is not a bad value proposition, and you know it comes with Kaihl browns or, if we're getting crazy, some clicky blue switch or something. The keycap market alone will keep the Cherry mount viable for the next well, forever, if you ask me.

How about Alps-based switches with Cherry mounts? Now we're starting to have fun.

Those Chinesium boards usually suck though (though there are exceptions). Great for the price, not great in other categories. Windows systems vs Intel Macs isn't a great example either, since the hardware was often equivalent ... or even identical, just some were paying significantly more for the Apple logo and operating system which wasn't necessarily any better than Windows. If you're talking PPC, then they sometimes had better hardware, but the difference in performance still certainly was not worth the difference in price. Apple will never compete in that regard because their profit margins have always been high. Then there's the fact that Apple cripples their hardware with planned obsolesce in order to sell the next new thing, and operates within an extremely restrictive closed ecosystem, intentionally. Entirely different scenario.

From what I have always read, the Alps design makes having Cherry cap stems without altering the feel of the switch just about impossible. I don't think that's really a major sticking point. The switches speak for themselves. An ancient Leading Edge DC-2014 with a weird AT-like layout and yellowed case and caps is unquestionably preferable to me to the blingiest MX board available. The design is better to a degree that the aesthetics should be irrelevant. The bling can come later.

I don't really expect complicated alps to ever come back as much as we'd like them to, and it's for that reason that I've built up a hoard of various switches to last me a lifetime. They're just too complicated and the risk and cost of remanufacturing them and living up to the originals is just too great.

It's certainly an unpopular opinion but I fully take matias refusal to ever do it as evidence that it'll never happen. The commercial barrier to entry is just too great.

Happy to be proven wrong, and for my stash of switches to become worthless if cheap better alps recreations become available, but I can't see it happening.

I don't know that I would want Matias to be the ones to do it anyway, so that works for me. There's risk and cost in everything that has any chance at success. Ellipse resurrected capacitive buckling spring, and did a fine job at it.
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 May 2020, 15:29:51 by Maledicted »

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4842 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 15:09:06 »
I don't know that I would want Matias to be the ones to do it anyway, so that works for me. There's risk and cost in everything that has any chance at success. Ellipse resurrected capacitive buckling spring, and did a fine job at it.

Buckling springs are a fair bit simpler than complicated alps, I'd love to be wrong, but there's just too big an investment in tooling imo.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4843 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 15:35:16 »
I don't know that I would want Matias to be the ones to do it anyway, so that works for me. There's risk and cost in everything that has any chance at success. Ellipse resurrected capacitive buckling spring, and did a fine job at it.

Buckling springs are a fair bit simpler than complicated alps, I'd love to be wrong, but there's just too big an investment in tooling imo.

The mechanism is simpler, the materials aren't cheap though, and you can't just make a buckling spring switch, he had to recreate the entire board. Not entirely equivalent, of course, but it should still be a good example.

Offline cheesy_jones

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4844 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 15:38:31 »

Those Chinesium boards usually suck though (though there are exceptions). Great for the price, not great in other categories. Windows systems vs Intel Macs isn't a great example either, since the hardware was often equivalent ... or even identical, just some were paying significantly more for the Apple logo and operating system which wasn't necessarily any better than Windows. If you're talking PPC, then they sometimes had better hardware, but the difference in performance still certainly was not worth the difference in price. Apple will never compete in that regard because their profit margins have always been high. Then there's the fact that Apple cripples their hardware with planned obsolesce in order to sell the next new thing, and operates within an extremely restrictive closed ecosystem, intentionally. Entirely different scenario.

On another board we could have a very lively discussion about the extent of our disagreement about the value proposition of Apple hardware vs. PC/Windows machines in the 80s and 90s. You are misguided, sir!

Anyway, I think to ignore that inexpensive Chinese hardware is a mistake. Unpopular opinion stated.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4845 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 15:46:17 »

Those Chinesium boards usually suck though (though there are exceptions). Great for the price, not great in other categories. Windows systems vs Intel Macs isn't a great example either, since the hardware was often equivalent ... or even identical, just some were paying significantly more for the Apple logo and operating system which wasn't necessarily any better than Windows. If you're talking PPC, then they sometimes had better hardware, but the difference in performance still certainly was not worth the difference in price. Apple will never compete in that regard because their profit margins have always been high. Then there's the fact that Apple cripples their hardware with planned obsolesce in order to sell the next new thing, and operates within an extremely restrictive closed ecosystem, intentionally. Entirely different scenario.

On another board we could have a very lively discussion about the extent of our disagreement about the value proposition of Apple hardware vs. PC/Windows machines in the 80s and 90s. You are misguided, sir!

Anyway, I think to ignore that inexpensive Chinese hardware is a mistake. Unpopular opinion stated.

80s and 90s I can't comment on. I wasn't even alive until the final days of the 1980s, much less into computers yet. I do know that if you're going as far back as the 70s and 80s, Apple did have their moments for capable hardware.

I don't ignore inexpensive Chinese hardware, in fact, I love it. I prefer the typing experience of some cheap Outemu blue boards I have to boards that cost 3x as much with MX blues. I don't particularly like either though, which was the point that I was making. $50 mechanicals are great for the price, if even only as an introduction, but they're not something I would choose over alternatives that cost marginally more.

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4846 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 15:59:31 »
I don't know that I would want Matias to be the ones to do it anyway, so that works for me. There's risk and cost in everything that has any chance at success. Ellipse resurrected capacitive buckling spring, and did a fine job at it.

Buckling springs are a fair bit simpler than complicated alps, I'd love to be wrong, but there's just too big an investment in tooling imo.

The mechanism is simpler, the materials aren't cheap though, and you can't just make a buckling spring switch, he had to recreate the entire board. Not entirely equivalent, of course, but it should still be a good example.

Not trying to downplay his incredible achievement btw, can't wait for ours to turn up once the dye subbing is done.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4847 on: Thu, 07 May 2020, 16:19:14 »
Not trying to downplay his incredible achievement btw, can't wait for ours to turn up once the dye subbing is done.

I did a low/custom serial number option and unprinted caps just because it was said they would get bumped to the front of the stack. That F77 is still out in the ether. I found one on Ebay though, and it is wonderful. I'm using it now.

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4848 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 21:20:11 »
I'm sure it's been mentioned in this massive thread already, but I've been reading switch reviews again and keep coming across the attitude of "the only proper way to type is without bottoming out" which is just so bloody condescending and annoying.

I enjoy bottoming out, it's simply a pleasant tactile sensation with all of my keyboards. In fact, I'm not even sure it's possible to type on bucking spring without bottoming out- perhaps it is, but it would be extremely annoying.

Some people bottom out, and apparently some people don't. Really no idea why someone would insist that there is only One True Way to type. It's like insisting that only Dvorak, DSA, or TKL are 'right' and that everything else is therefore 'wrong'.
« Last Edit: Sun, 10 May 2020, 21:21:43 by jamster »

Offline funkmon

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4849 on: Sun, 10 May 2020, 21:27:54 »
Yeah, I mean that was literally the conversation we were having just now. Hahaha.

What keyboard reviews btw say there's a proper way to type? I hate that crap. That's the kind of stuff I like geekhack for. Very much a forum for those who just like keyboards and like what they like and nobody cares.

As for typing on buckling spring without bottoming out, yes it's possible. I have discovered, despite my typical protestation, that I don't bottom out on some keys I type on my right hand with my Model M, or I do it so softly so to not notice it even when trying to feel it. I typically don't bottom out on the backspace key, for example. Hard to believe since the actuation point is so close to the bottom out point and the tactility is such that one would expect it, but here we are.
« Last Edit: Sun, 10 May 2020, 21:31:48 by funkmon »