Author Topic: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions  (Read 617346 times)

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Offline Hyde

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4900 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 12:10:38 »
I do not care how good a board is if it comes from the PRC I don't want it...

ROC , Korea.... anyplace other than china yes...  100% **** Chinese made boards....

100% **** china in general

Taiwan is not China...




lol I generally don't want to bring political issue into hobbies and also I do not plan to start an internet debate.

However I agree with you somewhat, even though most people still don't know what/where Taiwan is.

(I'm from Taiwan actually)

Oh another note, my unpopular opinion is that I HATE R5.  It's a waste of money to develop extra mold to feel WORSE (as oppose to just using R4 twice).

You most likely will raise your hand to hit Esc key so I like my Esc key flat, introducing R5 just feel too angled and awkward.  OEM and Cherry profile R4 is almost flat which is perfect in my opinion.

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Offline yicaoyimu

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4901 on: Tue, 02 June 2020, 18:12:10 »
Imagine having to bring political views into this hobby.. A good keyboard is a good keyboard. I don't care where it's made or the race of the designer.

Anyone that are serious about this hobby, will have a hard time avoiding made in China components anyway. Most custom keyboards are manufactured in China. Most PCBs are made in China. Gateron/JWK/Zeals/Kaih all from China.

There is enough politics outside of this hobby already. Leave this hobby be.
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Offline funkmon

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4902 on: Tue, 02 June 2020, 18:23:24 »
That's the unpopular opinions part of the comment! Haha.

Hey, personally, I feel kind of the same, but it's unavoidable outside of Unicomp, who, from what I understand, does almost all of it in house in Kentucky.

I have a lot of Taiwanese boards from back in the day, and some modern boards made in China with switches made in China with keycaps made in China. Heck, I mean Matias, a proud Canadian country, manufacturers no parts of their boards themselves. They have a couple different switch manufacturers, they get the keycaps from China, and they get the PCB and chassis from China. I want to support my local companies like Matias (I consider Ontario to be local to me lol), or indeed an American company like Unicomp, but man, you basically can't avoid the stuff unless you're buying retro, Unicomp, or Cherry, from what I understand.

You're never going to get any of these new cool switches without buying some chinese stuff.

Not that that matters to me much, I collect IBMs and typically prefer Cherry switches, but I would never experience the joy that is Matias switches or get to try out a Box Navy or Jade, which are awesome.

But, again, I think there's plenty to the hobby just staying retro and buying from Unicomp or Cherry if you need something modern. I mean, who's got a complete Space Invader collection? Anyone? Bueller?

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4903 on: Tue, 02 June 2020, 23:11:58 »
> lol I generally don't want to bring political issue into hobbies and also I do not plan to start an internet debate.

Agreed. Let us not rehash the same dumbass geopolitical arguments that have rolled around ten thousand forums already. There's absolutely nothing new to be said on this topic, and arguing about it never changes the opinion of anyone.

Back to unpopular keyboard opinions:

What's the deal with all the new keyboards projects that seem more jewellery than function? Tiny boards with massive compromises like 1U enter keys, or missing symbols like the quote mark? Do people really sink in the time to relearn these weirdly modified layouts, or do these boards just end up mounted in a display shelf at home?

There's plenty of new stuff coming out that I am impressed with, some stuff that I don't personally like but can appreciate the design behind. And some stuff that just makes me shake my head.
« Last Edit: Tue, 02 June 2020, 23:14:19 by jamster »

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4904 on: Thu, 04 June 2020, 10:03:24 »
Mod Post:

I cleaned this thread up a bit after things became too political.  I did my best to find the line where it went from slightly political, but still about keyboards to entirely political, and cut things off there.  If your post was removed, this is in no way a punitive act; the thread just needed to be cleaned and set straight.

Let's keep the political discussions to Off Topic and its relevant threads.  :thumb:

Offline dom

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4905 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 09:44:59 »
Forgive my "disrespectful" rant, but as a beginner (almost a year in MK generally) I really don't like anything about keycult keyboards. They all look a bit crappy for me, there is nothing (a single thing), which would scream WOW or WANT.

PS: Don't kill me please, peace!

Offline mode

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4906 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 10:23:48 »
Forgive my "disrespectful" rant, but as a beginner (almost a year in MK generally) I really don't like anything about keycult keyboards. They all look a bit crappy for me, there is nothing (a single thing), which would scream WOW or WANT.

PS: Don't kill me please, peace!

I feel the same way. I just don't covet any of the absurdly expensive designer TKL boards, they all look pretty interchangeable.

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4907 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 11:10:09 »
Forgive my "disrespectful" rant, but as a beginner (almost a year in MK generally) I really don't like anything about keycult keyboards. They all look a bit crappy for me, there is nothing (a single thing), which would scream WOW or WANT.

PS: Don't kill me please, peace!

This is another one of those opinions which probably isn't unpopular :)

I only became aware of keycult recently, and when I looked them up, just though "why bother?"

I don't think they're about keyboards, it's about something else... exclusivity, or uniqueness, or whatever. But then I get the same reaction with a lot of these boutique brands or group buys.

Edit:: Just spent some time checking out the site. What an absolute crock. Bog standard layouts, no switches, these boards are not about a typing experience or innovation. It's just about desktop jewellery.
« Last Edit: Sat, 06 June 2020, 11:53:44 by jamster »

Offline dom

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4908 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 11:16:49 »
I feel the same way.
This is another one of those opinions which probably isn't unpopular :)

Ok, I'm happy at least that I'm not crazy (not the only one) hehe.
Yeah, the "exclusiveness" attribute is a good point!

Offline Eyud

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4909 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 12:05:17 »
I don't really get the designer/boutique keyboard trend either. To me a keyboard is a tool, and having quality tools is important, but the focus on aesthetics is a bit much.

Offline yicaoyimu

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4910 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 12:24:39 »
I don't really get the designer/boutique keyboard trend either. To me a keyboard is a tool, and having quality tools is important, but the focus on aesthetics is a bit much.

The same can be said about watch and car.
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Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4911 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 12:45:18 »
I don't really get the designer/boutique keyboard trend either. To me a keyboard is a tool, and having quality tools is important, but the focus on aesthetics is a bit much.

The same can be said about watch and car.

Totally agree. Though watches and cars are vastly more complex machines and have much more deeply embedded cultural and historical meaning.

I'm fairly utilitarian in my approach to daily use objects, but I have to say that seeing H4 at the Royal Observatory in the UK was extremely cool. That timepiece and the technology it represented played an important role in the development of the British Empire.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harrison#H4

« Last Edit: Sat, 06 June 2020, 12:51:17 by jamster »

Offline mode

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4912 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 15:01:49 »
The same can be said about watch and car.

Yup, don't get those either.

Offline Eyud

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4913 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 15:13:28 »
The same can be said about watch and car.

True, and it's kinda funny because I'm not so utilitarian when it comes to cars. So I guess I do get it, I just like boring keyboards. ;D

Offline funkmon

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4914 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 00:59:37 »
I think that watches are cool, but because they have a type of social thing where people can easily recognize a cool watch. The watches can be bought and used for a lifetime, and the design, while not, strictly speaking, timeless is close enough that a nice watch is noticed through the years. They're also fairly cheap if you do it right. For example, a museum face Movado is $250 or so. One of these slabs of brass with garish LED lights down the side costs that much and won't look cool in 20 years. It's going to look incredibly dated, and it's only used occasionally.

Now, I say that basically only spending a minimum on watches. I just bought a watch by Fossil that's fairly normal looking, and it "only" cost me $60. And, crucially, it doesn't have a K Mart brand on it even though Fossils are crap too at 5 times the price. That's like buying a Tofu except it's still going to look all right in 20 years if I still have it.

I think a lot of the appeal of the Model M isn't just its good sound, good feel, and standard layout, but because it essentially defined keyboard aesthetics, it's a completely classic look, which to some people, is boring, but it's something I bet a lot of us actually like.

So here's an unpopular opinion:

The people who like boring keyboards, and I am grouping myself in with this set of people, like them at least partially because it's a rejection of the trendiness and design via ruler that many current custom keyboards have. It's a deliberate choice to not go into that.

I ask myself sometimes, why am I using a Model M all the time when my alps boards feel better (slightly), sound better (slightly) and have more features? Probably that bomb ass design scheme and industrial case, honestly, and that's a rejection of the deliberately obscure and mainstream trends in the hobby right now both.

If I'm truly honest with myself, I have to ask myself if I like the Model M because the current mainstream doesn't care, and the big chunk of vintage hobbyists dismiss it sometimes? Do I just reject being grouped in with these people? I think I do.

« Last Edit: Sun, 07 June 2020, 01:02:32 by funkmon »

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4915 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 01:36:58 »
The people who like boring keyboards, and I am grouping myself in with this set of people, like them at least partially because it's a rejection of the trendiness and design via ruler that many current custom keyboards have. It's a deliberate choice to not go into that.

I like to think that I arrived at my extremely boring board collection independently of the whole milled, anodised, polished and externally weighted custom thing. Which I only became aware of within the past couple of weeks, when I started looking at Geekhack group buy postings again. Prior to that I thought the market was still with the RBG plastic-cased gamer aesthetic.

Guess I'm just fundamentally boring :)


Offline funkmon

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4916 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 15:30:27 »
Hahaha that's very much just the other side of the same coin. We're both rejecting RGB and gamer aesthetic, *and* the needlessly twee custom keyboard thing.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4917 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 18:30:21 »
I ask myself sometimes, why am I using a Model M all the time when my alps boards feel better (slightly), sound better (slightly) and have more features? Probably that bomb ass design scheme and industrial case, honestly, and that's a rejection of the deliberately obscure and mainstream trends in the hobby right now both.

If I'm truly honest with myself, I have to ask myself if I like the Model M because the current mainstream doesn't care, and the big chunk of vintage hobbyists dismiss it sometimes? Do I just reject being grouped in with these people? I think I do.

I agree with not being all that interested in most of those super expensive designer keyboards. The ones that I do end up liking, are industrial designs, like the Heavy Metal Keyboards, and the K65 and K70 (which are also gamer keyboards, coincidentally).

I actually think that I'm more in the minority in that I like vintage boards and switches but am not a big fan of the Model M. I don't like how they feel, I don't particularly like how they look, I don't like that they use a membrane, and I don't like that the plate sandwich is held together with plastic rivets. The layout is great, the sound is good, I could take or leave the rest of it. I can appreciate their place in keyboard history though, and their interesting variants.

Offline funkmon

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4918 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 01:45:16 »
See now that's an unpopular keyboard opinion that I think is secretly held by a lot of people. You always see things like "oh of course the Model M is a great keyboard, but look at these Alps." Or "Well it's nothing compared to the Model M, but anyway, these Gateron Yellows..." it's like people think they need to say something in acknowledgement of the greatness of the Model M but don't believe in it.

I do believe in it, I have around 2 dozen Models M from 1986 through 2020, but It's really like just a great utility player in baseball. My default when people ask me about keyboards is "buy a Model M." If they are Apple losers it's "Buy a Matias." Here, I usually tell people to buy a $30 Amazon **** board since if they're interested enough in keyboards they're going to want to try out a bunch of stuff, but in real life, Models M are just like A- boards in everything, and that's why they're so good.

Like, for us, we both love our Matias Tactile Pros, right? I'd literally only ever suggest one to a Mac user or a keyboard enthusiast who wants a new keyboard. The chatter issues, the weird design, the flex (whatever the plastic is), the lasered keycaps that don't matter, the potential dirt sensitivity of Alps switches, and the price mean that while I use it as much or more than any other single keyboard, it's not something I'll tell someone to get.

A Model M is $50 used or $90 from Unicomp, which is a lot of money, but being under a hundred really is a good psychological factor, plus the keys are bulletproof, and the feel is one of the best in keyboards, IMO, and not that much worse than Models F.

But, for us enthusiasts, we are trying to find something in particular somehow. Like we really want a linear switch or something heavy, or something super light, or something small, or something with feature X, and we just can't take the fact that the Model M has essentially no standout feature, other than being very good, but not excellent, at everything.

I think it might be our inability to settle that is keeping us on this keyboard train for ages. Like, at some point, we just have to be like "okay, this keyboard looks dumb as **** and has thin keycaps and is a Mac layout" or "this thing's perfect but I want to wear earplugs and shoot whoever invented stepped keycaps," or "great layout but too big and it's a little bit too heavy," "but it's basically perfect in the other ways so I'm going to deal with it."

Like, I mean, I used the Model F XT for a while, right? I was cool with it. But then, I had to update the Model M subreddit wiki with dates and part numbers and crap, and Reddit's table layout creation is entirely text based. As in, this is what it looks like when you're editing it.
Quote
UT40U4A | Unicomp | 2020-04-16 | Funkmon | Unicomp New Model M 104 key | https://imgur.com/a/YKr4lOG
1398601 | Lexmark | 1992-12-04 | Funkmon | Lexmark Branded 101 key | https://imgur.com/a/U6K4Hg8
1390572 | IBM | 1986-04-16 | Funkmon | Square badge 122 key | https://imgur.com/a/1Vporrg
1395665 | IBM | 1997-10-09 | Funkmon | Grey oval 102 key terminal, may have been serviced | https://i.imgur.com/dYOoZd2.png
52G9700 | Lexmark | 1993-09-28 | Funkmon | Blue oval 101 key transplanted to industrial case and repaired by Unicomp 2020-05-18 | https://i.imgur.com/JqiSjOo.jpg
1395660 | IBM UK | 1999-11-17 | Funkmon | Blue oval 122 key | https://imgur.com/a/5y8hVT5
CP40K16 | Unicomp | 2012-08-15 | Funkmon | Unicomp Black 101 key with credit card reader | https://i.imgur.com/YoyiAEB.jpg

Because of formatting issues, I had to flip between the number pad and the navigation cluster with enough frequency I said **** it and pulled the Matias back out.

This attitude of ours is a problem.
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 June 2020, 01:52:41 by funkmon »

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4919 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 07:13:05 »

the Model M has essentially no standout feature, other than being very good, but not excellent, at everything.


I kinda mostly agree with your essay, but the fact that you are saying this about a 34-year-old keyboard is amazing in light of what has happened in every other area of computing.

Climbing into the time machine back to those heady days, arguably the biggest impact that the Model M had on the keyboard world was that it standardized the "modern" layout!

And then there is the fact that the Model M is was introduced as an extreme cheapening and downgrade in quality from the Model F(s) in all their weird breeds ....
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous if you are into this tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech 2019-12-22

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4920 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 12:19:28 »
See now that's an unpopular keyboard opinion that I think is secretly held by a lot of people. You always see things like "oh of course the Model M is a great keyboard, but look at these Alps." Or "Well it's nothing compared to the Model M, but anyway, these Gateron Yellows..." it's like people think they need to say something in acknowledgement of the greatness of the Model M but don't believe in it.

You may be right about that. It may even partly be people who either haven't spent a lot of time with the Model M, or have never even felt one, so they're just parroting generalizations, like most of us do with beam spring. How many have ever even seen a beam spring? I haven't. Maybe I never will. We all consider them the apex of clicky switches though, because that's the general consensus.

Personally, I would take those Gateron yellows over a Model M, and I'm not really a huge fan of linears. I can't wrap my head around how I see such a huge difference between Models F and M and nobody else seems to. Maybe I need to force myself to type on one for a week or two. I would not look forward to it.

I do believe in it, I have around 2 dozen Models M from 1986 through 2020, but It's really like just a great utility player in baseball. My default when people ask me about keyboards is "buy a Model M." If they are Apple losers it's "Buy a Matias." Here, I usually tell people to buy a $30 Amazon **** board since if they're interested enough in keyboards they're going to want to try out a bunch of stuff, but in real life, Models M are just like A- boards in everything, and that's why they're so good.

When it comes to typing, I would prefer a random $30 Amazon board with some Outemu blues to an M, myself. \_(ツ)_/

Like, for us, we both love our Matias Tactile Pros, right? I'd literally only ever suggest one to a Mac user or a keyboard enthusiast who wants a new keyboard. The chatter issues, the weird design, the flex (whatever the plastic is), the lasered keycaps that don't matter, the potential dirt sensitivity of Alps switches, and the price mean that while I use it as much or more than any other single keyboard, it's not something I'll tell someone to get.

I do wonder if chatter is even a problem with at least the most modern Matias clickies. That second Mini Tactile Pro I found didn't have a single switch that seemed to chatter yet in my testing, and that board had apparently been in daily use for 6 months. I do imagine they've got the same dust/dirt susceptibility as Alps though, unfortunately. I actually quite like the design myself, and the mini variants don't seem to me to really have any noticeable flex. Certainly less than most boards. Only more than something like a TG3 when it comes to plastic cases, and those have pretty thick aluminum plates on the bottom. That dye I was ordering came in by the way. They may be thin lasered caps, but I'm going to try to at least try to make them look less Apple-esque. I do agree on not recommending it to people. People seem to love or hate Matias, and I can't say I liked the feel of a loose "quiet click" switch. The linears and clickies are nice, but I don't have enough time using either to say for sure they won't develop chatter, like how I'll actually defend a K65 or K70 quality-wise.

A Model M is $50 used or $90 from Unicomp, which is a lot of money, but being under a hundred really is a good psychological factor, plus the keys are bulletproof, and the feel is one of the best in keyboards, IMO, and not that much worse than Models F.

There's no question that the Model M, in all guises, offers a good value so long as you get in at under $100-150.

But, for us enthusiasts, we are trying to find something in particular somehow. Like we really want a linear switch or something heavy, or something super light, or something small, or something with feature X, and we just can't take the fact that the Model M has essentially no standout feature, other than being very good, but not excellent, at everything.

I just don't like the feel, plain and simple. The plastic rivets and buried hex screws annoy me, but they're not a deal breaker. The look is not particularly appealing to me, but not a major negative either. The layout, besides the lack of a Windows key, is perfect. That's actually a stand-out fantastic thing about the M that it leaves most 80s vintage boards in the dust on. I'm willing to compromise, to an extent, on layout for the switches I want though.

I think it might be our inability to settle that is keeping us on this keyboard train for ages. Like, at some point, we just have to be like "okay, this keyboard looks dumb as **** and has thin keycaps and is a Mac layout" or "this thing's perfect but I want to wear earplugs and shoot whoever invented stepped keycaps," or "great layout but too big and it's a little bit too heavy," "but it's basically perfect in the other ways so I'm going to deal with it."

Maybe that's a problem for some, indecision. I think a bigger consideration is curiosity. I want to feel switches that I'm fairly certain I won't even end up preferring, so long as they're accessible and still considered highly-regarded. I want to see every angle, see the pros and cons, etc. That's most of the reason I got a Matias and Topre board. With the Matias, I was just pleasantly surprised to the contrary. I went in fully expecting to be disappointed, and I was not.

You're right on the compromises we make though, especially with vintage boards. The perfect combination just doesn't always exist. I think the F77 and/or F107 are pretty well perfect for my uses, and there are ANSI layout Alps boards, but that's not all universal either, based on what people value.

I love the sound of the F XT. I know, I'm strange. The heavier the better, if you ask me. The only time I would say otherwise is if I wanted to lug the thing around every day.

Like, I mean, I used the Model F XT for a while, right? I was cool with it. But then, I had to update the Model M subreddit wiki with dates and part numbers and crap, and Reddit's table layout creation is entirely text based. As in, this is what it looks like when you're editing it.
Quote
UT40U4A | Unicomp | 2020-04-16 | Funkmon | Unicomp New Model M 104 key | https://imgur.com/a/YKr4lOG
1398601 | Lexmark | 1992-12-04 | Funkmon | Lexmark Branded 101 key | https://imgur.com/a/U6K4Hg8
1390572 | IBM | 1986-04-16 | Funkmon | Square badge 122 key | https://imgur.com/a/1Vporrg
1395665 | IBM | 1997-10-09 | Funkmon | Grey oval 102 key terminal, may have been serviced | https://i.imgur.com/dYOoZd2.png
52G9700 | Lexmark | 1993-09-28 | Funkmon | Blue oval 101 key transplanted to industrial case and repaired by Unicomp 2020-05-18 | https://i.imgur.com/JqiSjOo.jpg
1395660 | IBM UK | 1999-11-17 | Funkmon | Blue oval 122 key | https://imgur.com/a/5y8hVT5
CP40K16 | Unicomp | 2012-08-15 | Funkmon | Unicomp Black 101 key with credit card reader | https://i.imgur.com/YoyiAEB.jpg

Because of formatting issues, I had to flip between the number pad and the navigation cluster with enough frequency I said **** it and pulled the Matias back out.

I never use the number pad, so I never thought of that. I always just used that part of the board for navigation, and nothing else. I could certainly see where not having a separate nav cluster could be irritating for people who use the number pad.

This attitude of ours is a problem.

Our proclivities for weird old stuff, or?


the Model M has essentially no standout feature, other than being very good, but not excellent, at everything.


I kinda mostly agree with your essay, but the fact that you are saying this about a 34-year-old keyboard is amazing in light of what has happened in every other area of computing.

Climbing into the time machine back to those heady days, arguably the biggest impact that the Model M had on the keyboard world was that it standardized the "modern" layout!

And then there is the fact that the Model M is was introduced as an extreme cheapening and downgrade in quality from the Model F(s) in all their weird breeds ....


Yes, the Model M holds an important place in history, that cannot be understated.

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4921 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 12:40:52 »
I think it might be our inability to settle that is keeping us on this keyboard train for ages. Like, at some point, we just have to be like "okay, this keyboard looks dumb as **** and has thin keycaps and is a Mac layout" or "this thing's perfect but I want to wear earplugs and shoot whoever invented stepped keycaps," or "great layout but too big and it's a little bit too heavy," "but it's basically perfect in the other ways so I'm going to deal with it."

There's a good unpopular opinion. I think stepped capslocks on modern aftermarket sets are an affectation. Form over function, as they offer less contact area to press a key (which should be mapped to Control or something else more useful). Yet in another recent thread, the bulk of posters insisted that stepped caps lock should be available.




Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4922 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 20:36:01 »
I think it might be our inability to settle that is keeping us on this keyboard train for ages. Like, at some point, we just have to be like "okay, this keyboard looks dumb as **** and has thin keycaps and is a Mac layout" or "this thing's perfect but I want to wear earplugs and shoot whoever invented stepped keycaps," or "great layout but too big and it's a little bit too heavy," "but it's basically perfect in the other ways so I'm going to deal with it."

There's a good unpopular opinion. I think stepped capslocks on modern aftermarket sets are an affectation. Form over function, as they offer less contact area to press a key (which should be mapped to Control or something else more useful). Yet in another recent thread, the bulk of posters insisted that stepped caps lock should be available.

Id make them available solely because of compatibility. Not every board is going to have the ability for both.

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4923 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 21:15:00 »
I think it might be our inability to settle that is keeping us on this keyboard train for ages. Like, at some point, we just have to be like "okay, this keyboard looks dumb as **** and has thin keycaps and is a Mac layout" or "this thing's perfect but I want to wear earplugs and shoot whoever invented stepped keycaps," or "great layout but too big and it's a little bit too heavy," "but it's basically perfect in the other ways so I'm going to deal with it."

There's a good unpopular opinion. I think stepped capslocks on modern aftermarket sets are an affectation. Form over function, as they offer less contact area to press a key (which should be mapped to Control or something else more useful). Yet in another recent thread, the bulk of posters insisted that stepped caps lock should be available.

Id make them available solely because of compatibility. Not every board is going to have the ability for both.

Oh, even if you don't swap capslock and leftcontrol, having a stepped caps lock is purely cosmetic. As 1. it's a very rarely used key and 2. all a step does is reduce the usable contact surface of the cap.

I guess aftermarket keycaps are all about cosmetics anyway, so I'm really just digging for something to complain about :)

Offline funkmon

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4924 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 21:40:17 »
Quote
all a step does is reduce the usable contact surface of the cap.

That's why the Apple chiclet keyboards are the best. Maximum cap surface.

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4925 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 21:45:22 »
Quote
all a step does is reduce the usable contact surface of the cap.

That's why the Apple chiclet keyboards are the best. Maximum cap surface.
The butterfly ones are the best. Who needs travel?

Offline gnho

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4926 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 22:03:43 »
I never understand why there are people spending 2-3k to buy a keycult board. In the meantime, I'm glad that they are not spending that money on a beamspring so I can hopefully purchase one soon before they realize there will be more keycults but not more beamsprings.

My sense is that the community is now pretty diverse, with a lot of money coming from programmers, people who like anime, gamers... etc. Every group has different preferences... I can see why something that make good photos or signal status on social media can sell well.

Personally I like vintage boards but I don't use them as daily drivers on a regular basis. They tend to take too much desk space and are not supported by QMK. While Hasu's USB controller and other converters allow custom keymaps, QMK simply provides much more flexibility and only get better. I'm also unlikely to travel with a Model M or F.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4927 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 23:02:42 »
I think it might be our inability to settle that is keeping us on this keyboard train for ages. Like, at some point, we just have to be like "okay, this keyboard looks dumb as **** and has thin keycaps and is a Mac layout" or "this thing's perfect but I want to wear earplugs and shoot whoever invented stepped keycaps," or "great layout but too big and it's a little bit too heavy," "but it's basically perfect in the other ways so I'm going to deal with it."

There's a good unpopular opinion. I think stepped capslocks on modern aftermarket sets are an affectation. Form over function, as they offer less contact area to press a key (which should be mapped to Control or something else more useful). Yet in another recent thread, the bulk of posters insisted that stepped caps lock should be available.

I actually just noticed that this was a thing recently. I'm pretty oblivious to keyboard trends. While I have always liked the look of a stepped caps lock key, I'm inclined to agree, unless one may want to use it to help prevent themselves from accidentally pressing caps lock. I know that's actually a key that I have accidentally pressed when not intending to. I find that ironic, when I have no problem at all with accidental presses of the Windows key.

I never understand why there are people spending 2-3k to buy a keycult board. In the meantime, I'm glad that they are not spending that money on a beamspring so I can hopefully purchase one soon before they realize there will be more keycults but not more beamsprings.

My sense is that the community is now pretty diverse, with a lot of money coming from programmers, people who like anime, gamers... etc. Every group has different preferences... I can see why something that make good photos or signal status on social media can sell well.

Personally I like vintage boards but I don't use them as daily drivers on a regular basis. They tend to take too much desk space and are not supported by QMK. While Hasu's USB controller and other converters allow custom keymaps, QMK simply provides much more flexibility and only get better. I'm also unlikely to travel with a Model M or F.

I would put my vintage keyboarding at at least 50/50, if not a greater slant towards vintage. Gaming has always been on my trusty old Corsair K70, though I may alter even that once I stop being lazy and fully clean up one of my old Zenith boards with linear Alps switches. Most of my typing is either with random retail boards with box jades or navies swapped into them, or some random vintage board with clicky switches, unless I'm spending some time with a new switch type for a while.

Offline mode

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4928 on: Thu, 11 June 2020, 01:58:28 »
Rating alps switches out of 10 is dumb and should stop being a thing. Everyone that sells alps should post a photo of the inside of a few switch tops to show the condition of the tracks as that's what actually matters.

Also, if you've ultrasonic cleaned and lubed 1st gen alps, I'm gonna assume that they were in terrible condition and could never be genuinely decent.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4929 on: Thu, 11 June 2020, 07:22:06 »
I think it might be our inability to settle that is keeping us on this keyboard train for ages. Like, at some point, we just have to be like "okay, this keyboard looks dumb as **** and has thin keycaps and is a Mac layout" or "this thing's perfect but I want to wear earplugs and shoot whoever invented stepped keycaps," or "great layout but too big and it's a little bit too heavy," "but it's basically perfect in the other ways so I'm going to deal with it."

There's a good unpopular opinion. I think stepped capslocks on modern aftermarket sets are an affectation. Form over function, as they offer less contact area to press a key (which should be mapped to Control or something else more useful). Yet in another recent thread, the bulk of posters insisted that stepped caps lock should be available.

I’d make them available solely because of compatibility. Not every board is going to have the ability for both.

Oh, even if you don't swap capslock and leftcontrol, having a stepped caps lock is purely cosmetic. As 1. it's a very rarely used key and 2. all a step does is reduce the usable contact surface of the cap.

I guess aftermarket keycaps are all about cosmetics anyway, so I'm really just digging for something to complain about :)

It’s not purely cosmetic. The MX stem is located in a different position, about 0.25u to the left. If you’re trying to cover a board that expects that offset, you either need a stepped caps lock or a non-stepped keycap that happens to have the stem in stepped position (as with some PMK sets).

Additionally, depending on how someone touch-types, stepped/unstopped capslock can provide a difference in usability. Touch typists that use it frequently will benefit from having it non-stepped, while touch typists that use it rarely benefit from having it stepped (so as to make it less likely to be struck by accident).
« Last Edit: Thu, 11 June 2020, 07:34:29 by NoPunIn10Did »

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4930 on: Thu, 11 June 2020, 07:34:03 »

I have always liked the look of a stepped caps lock key

use it to help prevent themselves from accidentally pressing caps lock. I know that's actually a key that I have accidentally pressed when not intending to.


I really like stepped keys, I wish there were more of them.
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous if you are into this tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech 2019-12-22

Offline funkmon

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4931 on: Thu, 11 June 2020, 21:03:38 »
Rating alps switches out of 10 is dumb and should stop being a thing. Everyone that sells alps should post a photo of the inside of a few switch tops to show the condition of the tracks as that's what actually matters.

Also, if you've ultrasonic cleaned and lubed 1st gen alps, I'm gonna assume that they were in terrible condition and could never be genuinely decent.

Haha holy smokes! Been burned a few times on those bad lads?

Offline mode

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4932 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 01:02:41 »
Rating alps switches out of 10 is dumb and should stop being a thing. Everyone that sells alps should post a photo of the inside of a few switch tops to show the condition of the tracks as that's what actually matters.

Also, if you've ultrasonic cleaned and lubed 1st gen alps, I'm gonna assume that they were in terrible condition and could never be genuinely decent.

Haha holy smokes! Been burned a few times on those bad lads?

Not badly, just a highly variable amount of truth and effort to make them nice again.

Offline chyros

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4933 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 02:56:23 »

I have always liked the look of a stepped caps lock key

use it to help prevent themselves from accidentally pressing caps lock. I know that's actually a key that I have accidentally pressed when not intending to.


I really like stepped keys, I wish there were more of them.
Stepped Caps Lock is VASTLY underrated, it should be a 100% standardisation IMO.
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4934 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 11:04:28 »
Stepped Caps Lock is VASTLY underrated, it should be a 100% standardisation IMO.
I like that most boards support both stepped and unstepped.  For persons that want Caps Lock there but don't use it often, stepped is optimal.  For folks mapping either control, backspace, or some other function there, unstepped is better.

Offline gnho

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4935 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 16:45:13 »
Stepped Caps Lock is VASTLY underrated, it should be a 100% standardisation IMO.

While I totally understand why it is stepped, can anyone one explain why there are so many stepped keys on Model F XT 83?

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4936 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 16:57:36 »
Stepped Caps Lock is VASTLY underrated, it should be a 100% standardisation IMO.

While I totally understand why it is stepped, can anyone one explain why there are so many stepped keys on Model F XT 83?

That is indeed really odd. Only guess I have is that they designed it such that you dont need to make multiple copies of legend insert moulds. Everything is 1u.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4937 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 18:24:53 »
Stepped Caps Lock is VASTLY underrated, it should be a 100% standardisation IMO.

While I totally understand why it is stepped, can anyone one explain why there are so many stepped keys on Model F XT 83?

That is indeed really odd. Only guess I have is that they designed it such that you dont need to make multiple copies of legend insert moulds. Everything is 1u.

I had always read that it was to prevent the need for stabilizers beneath the longer caps, as it forced the typist to always depress the switch from the center of the cap.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4938 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 18:52:42 »

I had always read that it was to prevent the need for stabilizers beneath the longer caps, as it forced the typist to always depress the switch from the center of the cap.

I never thought of that, what a great idea.
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous if you are into this tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech 2019-12-22

Offline funkmon

  • Posts: 228
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4939 on: Fri, 12 June 2020, 20:53:16 »
Yes, I believe that used to be fairly common practice on stuff like that. And, if you look, that's exactly where the spring is. Some vintage keyboards that have keycaps stepped in really really weird ways are always stepped so that the typist presses right over the switch or spring. I saw one somewhere once, decades ago, that had the entire right side of the alphanumeric block stepped. Like iirc it was something like a Monterey layout where the backspace looked more like a caps lock, the big ass enter was stepped into a medium ass enter, and the right shift was shortened as well. Sure enough, you open it up and the switches all hung out on the left side of the key hole.

Offline gnho

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4940 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 00:17:18 »
I wonder whether it has something to do with older computer systems. Maybe in XT it's more consequential to press on those stepped keys? "Do not press on it unless you absolutely intend to" is what those keys scream to me.

I don't have multiple Model Fs to compare. Does anyone of them have non-spacebar stabilizers?

Offline wencan008

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4941 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 01:16:29 »
Not needing to use stabilizers is what I've heard and it also makes the most sense to me. Why spend time and money developing extra parts that could fail, when you could just force users to press in the center and not worry about binding on off center presses because they aren't possible.

Offline chyros

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4942 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 04:12:00 »
Stepped Caps Lock is VASTLY underrated, it should be a 100% standardisation IMO.

While I totally understand why it is stepped, can anyone one explain why there are so many stepped keys on Model F XT 83?

That is indeed really odd. Only guess I have is that they designed it such that you dont need to make multiple copies of legend insert moulds. Everything is 1u.

I had always read that it was to prevent the need for stabilizers beneath the longer caps, as it forced the typist to always depress the switch from the center of the cap.
Yes, that's what I've been led to believe as well.
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline Findecanor

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4943 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 04:40:05 »
I think that maybe stabiliser bars is a relatively late idea. There are many vintage keyboards from the '70s and even early '80s where no key is larger than 1.5u, except for the space bar which is the only one that is stabilised. The keyboards often looked a bit haphazard with staggered openings in the top case.

I suspect that stepped "hat keys" could have been introduced for aesthetic reasons, to allow groups of non-stabilised keys to be fit into straight rectangles

For folks mapping either control, backspace, or some other function there, unstepped is better.
Holding Control by mistake and pressing another key would be worse than holding Caps Lock by mistake and then another key.

I prefer a stepped Control (left of A) also because the step serves as a homing feature, making me find the home row easily: It is more pronounced than the bump or dish of the F key.
Compare to how people like there to be some space around the arrow keys.
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 June 2020, 04:59:35 by Findecanor »
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
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Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4944 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 11:22:51 »
I don't know how unpopular this is but I'll share anyway.
I think mini 1800 keyboards like the candy bar and the elongate look damn fantastic but I can't get in on these because they are missing the . ; / ' keys. How do you get through a day of typing without period and question mark keys?

244875-0

244877-1

Offline frydaja

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4945 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 12:10:41 »
J is a bad key for a homing bump. Enter and mainly backspace becomes much more accessible if you shift your right hand one key to the right, ie. index finger at K instead of J.

Speaking of which: QWERTY is a bad layout, not because most used letters are too far away, but simply because even non-alphabetical keys are badly placed.
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 June 2020, 18:17:19 by frydaja »
Anne Pro 2 w/ Kailh Box Browns | CM Storm Quickfire TK Stealth w/ MX Browns | Unknown Chinese keyboard w/ Outemu Reds | Compaq-branded NMB RT101 | Gigabyte Force K81 w/Kailh Reds

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4946 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 12:28:46 »
I don't know how unpopular this is but I'll share anyway.
I think mini 1800 keyboards like the candy bar and the elongate look damn fantastic but I can't get in on these because they are missing the . ; / ' keys. How do you get through a day of typing without period and question mark keys?

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

I find designs like the second board additionally confusing because they deliberately include a numpad, but cut down on all the keys that you'd use in conjunction with a dedicated numpad- the arithmetic operators. I asked about this in a thread on the Clarabelle, and the Enter key is achieved by hitting "." twice, but I'm not sure how +-*/ are accessed, and in any case, if you're a heavy numpad user, you'd probably want to access these keys without resorting to function layers.

I guess there must be fairly common cases for dependence on a numpad without the associated operator buttons.

Offline AJM

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4947 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 13:14:27 »
I wouldn't waste time trying to figure out, how 40 % keyboards or the mini 1800 stuff are useful.
They're exactly as useful as "custom coiled cables" and "artisans".  ;)

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4948 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 13:21:17 »
I don't know how unpopular this is but I'll share anyway.
I think mini 1800 keyboards like the candy bar and the elongate look damn fantastic but I can't get in on these because they are missing the . ; / ' keys. How do you get through a day of typing without period and question mark keys?

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

I find designs like the second board additionally confusing because they deliberately include a numpad, but cut down on all the keys that you'd use in conjunction with a dedicated numpad- the arithmetic operators. I asked about this in a thread on the Clarabelle, and the Enter key is achieved by hitting "." twice, but I'm not sure how +-*/ are accessed, and in any case, if you're a heavy numpad user, you'd probably want to access these keys without resorting to function layers.

I guess there must be fairly common cases for dependence on a numpad without the associated operator buttons.

I agree. Here's an alternate layout I came up with. While it may be more functional, I don't think it looks as good. It's not as balanced. Looks pretty jenky actually. So I guess in trying to improve it, it kind of loses the spirit of what these compact boards are trying to achieve.


244881-0



Most of the time when looking at these boards, my brain goes cross eyed trying to figure out how I would hit things like tab, num lock, let alone common shortcuts like alt+tab, alt+F4. It looks cool but it's just a traffic jam of unusability. If I designate the numpad as my number row I can access my symbols but then sacrifice my nav cluster. If I do the opposite, I get home, end pgup and pgdn which I use a lot but then I lose my symbols.  Ugh, my brain hurts.

At the end of the day, this is just me griping. These really are fantastic looking keyboards and the designers are clearly talented. If you can figure out how to use it I say power to you and that makes you more clever than me. Maybe one day I'll get one of these and lock myself in a dark room for a month so that I'm forced to learn how to use it. After all, I just want to be one of the cool kids  :D

Offline gnho

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #4949 on: Sat, 13 June 2020, 13:25:14 »
I wouldn't waste time trying to figure out, how 40 % keyboards or the mini 1800 stuff are useful.
They're exactly as useful as "custom coiled cables" and "artisans".  ;)

This. These are oxymoron boards created as novelty, which is totally fine.