Author Topic: So what's the difference between Matias Clicky Switch and Cherry MX Blue?  (Read 20885 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nikelu

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 81
  • Don't read this!
For those who used both,is there a big difference on the feel? Also Browns vs Quiet Pro Matias switches

Offline chyros

  • a.k.a. Thomas
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3397
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • Hello and welcome.
Compared to the tactility in Matiases, clicky/tactile Cherry switches are practically linear. In a nutshell.

Matiases are also stiffer.
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline zombimuncha

  • Posts: 331
  • Location: UK
The Matias switches have a higher actuation / tactile / click point compared to MX.
The tactile feedback on the Matias is a more satisfying multi-event KERCHUCNK, versus the simple single tick from MX Blue.
Matias click is lower in pitch, and to me at least, less annoying than MX Blue.
Matias click is a bit heavier / harder to press than MX Blue.
On Matias switches the resistance decreases after actuation so you're gonna bottom-out. If you like notbottoming you might prefer Blues.

Offline Special K

  • Posts: 423
The Matias switches have a higher actuation / tactile / click point compared to MX.
The tactile feedback on the Matias is a more satisfying multi-event KERCHUCNK, versus the simple single tick from MX Blue.
Matias click is lower in pitch, and to me at least, less annoying than MX Blue.
Matias click is a bit heavier / harder to press than MX Blue.
On Matias switches the resistance decreases after actuation so you're gonna bottom-out. If you like notbottoming you might prefer Blues.

I have both a cherry MX blue board and a Matias tactile pro board with clicky switches and zombimuncha's description is pretty much what I would say.

I especially like the Matias click noise better than the high pitched click of the cherry MX blue.

That said, I still use the cherry MX blue board as my daily driver because I just don't like the construction of the Matias boards.  The plastic is glossy instead of matte, which means it shows fingerprints and smudges.  It also just feels thinner and of a lower quality than the plastic used in Filcos.  Finally, I'm not a fan of the curved shape.  In short, my perfect board would probably be Matias tactile click switches in a Filco style case.
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
It also just feels thinner and of a lower quality than the plastic used in Filcos.
The polycarbonate used by Matias is a sturdier and more expensive plastic than the ABS and ABS mixes used by other vendors.

The glossy appearance definitely isn’t everyone’s preference though. There’s nothing inherently better or worse about it, but matching the aesthetic of late-1990s Macintosh computers and peripherals does make it seem a bit dated to many people.

But then, most other mechanical keyboards these days look like cheap transformer robot toys, so I dunno...
« Last Edit: Sat, 04 April 2015, 20:40:00 by jacobolus »

Offline KHAANNN

  • Posts: 1648
The Matias switches have a higher actuation / tactile / click point compared to MX.
The tactile feedback on the Matias is a more satisfying multi-event KERCHUCNK, versus the simple single tick from MX Blue.
Matias click is lower in pitch, and to me at least, less annoying than MX Blue.
Matias click is a bit heavier / harder to press than MX Blue.
On Matias switches the resistance decreases after actuation so you're gonna bottom-out. If you like notbottoming you might prefer Blues.

After reading this description, I so want to try Matias's, yet I can't, if they are as good as you described, I can't lock myself to the limited keycaps (If there was at least one colorful, SP-like keycap set, I would jump on it)

Gloss = more sweat, more dust, easier cleaning
Matte = less to no sweat, no dust visibility, hard cleaning

In the short run, I like matte surfaces/keycaps, yet I haven't seen the long run yet, it might be hard to clean the keycaps if the need arises (hoping it never does), however from WASD keycaps, I know that it's extremely easy to restore keycaps to their original glories, only to get tainted again a week later, better use matte/textured keycaps instead

Driving more off topic, http://zealpc.net/collections/switches/products/taiwan-white-switch-aristotle - without trying them, these switches seemed like matiasy cherry's

It seems like a better idea to settle on Cherry's for now
Endgame | 1.25 Cmd for GMK Sets Please | Or Just 1.25 Blanks Like The Good Old Days

Offline slaction

  • Posts: 41
  • Location: US
Matias Tactile is a much looser switch than Cherry, and because of this it has a lot more clack to it and it's much louder to type on.  IMO Matias Tactile feels better, but it's not worth the trade off in noise, I use Blues 90% of the time.

Offline Special K

  • Posts: 423
Quote from: jacobolus
The polycarbonate used by Matias is a sturdier and more expensive plastic than the ABS and ABS mixes used by other vendors.

The glossy appearance definitely isn’t everyone’s preference though. There’s nothing inherently better or worse about it, but matching the aesthetic of late-1990s Macintosh computers and peripherals does make it seem a bit dated to many people.

The plastic is superior to Filco?  Interesting.  Maybe it was just my dislike of the glossy finish, combined with the fact that the keyboard has a very hollow "plasticy" resonant clack sound that led me to believe it was of inferior quality.  Are the switches mounted to a metal plate just like the Filco?  Is there more open space inside the case compared to a Filco?
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline Special K

  • Posts: 423
Matias Tactile is a much looser switch than Cherry, and because of this it has a lot more clack to it and it's much louder to type on.  IMO Matias Tactile feels better, but it's not worth the trade off in noise, I use Blues 90% of the time.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what do you mean by "looser"?  Do you mean you can wiggle the stem in the housing more than you can with a cherry MX stem?
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Quote from: jacobolus
The polycarbonate used by Matias is a sturdier and more expensive plastic than the ABS and ABS mixes used by other vendors.

The plastic is superior to Filco?  Interesting.
I wouldn’t say it’s “superior” as a blanket statement; that’s fairly subjective. It is however sturdier and more expensive.

Quote
[...] the keyboard has a very hollow "plasticy" resonant clack sound that led me to believe it was of inferior quality.  Are the switches mounted to a metal plate just like the Filco?  Is there more open space inside the case compared to a Filco?
Yes, switches are mounted on a steel plate. There might be more space inside compared to a Filco, I’m not sure. Open both keyboards up and compare?

The keycaps Matias uses are nothing to write home about, and that can definitely affect the sound quite a bit. They’re talking about making their own tooling for some nicer ones in the future.

Offline slaction

  • Posts: 41
  • Location: US
Matias Tactile is a much looser switch than Cherry, and because of this it has a lot more clack to it and it's much louder to type on.  IMO Matias Tactile feels better, but it's not worth the trade off in noise, I use Blues 90% of the time.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what do you mean by "looser"?  Do you mean you can wiggle the stem in the housing more than you can with a cherry MX stem?

Yes, the stems wiggle more than Cherry switches.  The Tactile switches are just all around a looser switch by design.

Offline rowdy

  • HHKB Hapster
  • * Erudite Elder
  • Posts: 21136
  • Location: melbourne.vic.au
  • Missed another sale.
So how do Matias compare to MX green?

Greens are stiffer than blues, so I'd guess the main difference is the sound.

In which case how to Matias compare to buckling springs?
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline falkentyne

  • Posts: 283
I think you guys are asking the wrong question here.
I kept my mouth shut, but after reading all these posts, shouldn't you guys be asking how Matias compares to the IBM SELECTRIC (II)?
Because gag me with a spoon, but you basically described that typewriter.
Huge actuation point.
Deep klack
Impossible to NOT bottom out.

Now I haven't used a selectric II since 1991, but I sure remember that's exactly how it felt...

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
shouldn't you guys be asking how Matias compares to the IBM SELECTRIC (II)? Because gag me with a spoon, but you basically described that typewriter.
Nah, the Selectric is great fun to type on, but it’s pretty different from a clicky Alps/Matias switch. It’s kind of difficult to describe the feeling of a Selectric in prose though.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 13378
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
All the Cherry mx switches feel very linear when you're typing fast. 100+WPM

Even Topre and Matias feel somewhat linear when you're going fast, but less so linear than Cherry

The Buckling spring is the only switch I've felt that really gives you that substantial vibration at the finger tips at all speeds..

But of course my speed limit is 135wpm, so I don't know if perhaps at 140 150+  even Buckling spring will feel linear..



Offline bhtooefr

  • Posts: 1624
  • Location: Newark, OH, USA
  • this switch can tick sound of music
    • bhtooefr.org
I will say that Alps clicky switches are probably the closest I've gotten to Selectric in a computer keyboard, but that's still a very long way away.

In prose, I would describe how the Selectric feels by how it works. First up, have a force graph:



There's a very, very light leaf spring with 5.6 mm travel that makes up the linear component of the Selectric's travel. This bottoms out at about 37 cN.

The tactility and actuation are provided by a separate mechanism from that (which is, to be fair, also true of Cherry - Alps separates tactility and actuation from one another). However, Selectrics do it in a way that doesn't resemble anything that a computer keyboard can possibly do. The keylever engages an interposer, which is on a stiff spring (actually, two stiff springs which are engaged separately), and force goes up from about 17 cN (after the .1 mm of travel to load the linear spring) to about 62 cN very quickly (at about 1.3 mm of total travel). Meanwhile, the interposer is pushing against a bail that mechanically engages the print mechanism, and at about 3.8 mm of total travel, and 71 cN force (note how long you spend pushing the interposer against the bail, which gives a huge meaty tactile bump), the print mechanism engages, and this is where the real magic happens.

The force graph doesn't tell you everything that happens here, either, is the thing. The force graph shows a vertical dropoff.

What actually happens is that a camshaft actually KNOCKS THE INTERPOSER OUT FROM UNDER THE KEYLEVER. The key falls out from under your finger, dropping from 71 cN to about 31 cN force instantly. Because your finger isn't providing the force for this tactile drop, that's why it feels like the key falls away from you.

Finally, at about 5.6 mm of travel, the ride's over, and you bottom out.

Releasing the key is done purely against the leaf spring, so it's light, there's no reverse tactile sensation, nothing forcing your finger up hard.
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 April 2015, 07:07:49 by bhtooefr »

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14305
  • Rich Homie Huang.
Matias Click vs MX Blues?

I like the sound of the Matias switches better. I like the actuation point that's slightly higher than the MX Blues. And I think the Matias Clicks are slightly heavier than the MX Blues.

Complicated Brown Alps vs Matias Quiet Click?

The quiet clicks have a rubber dampened bottom out and top out so you get this cushiony landing that's a little unique. Brown Alps feel a bit like MX Clears or 62g/65g Clears. No click, all tactile bump. I really like Brown Alps actually and I'd like to make a full (60%/TKL/Full size) board with them.

Offline Touch_It

  • Posts: 713
I will say that Alps clicky switches are probably the closest I've gotten to Selectric in a computer keyboard, but that's still a very long way away.

In prose, I would describe how the Selectric feels by how it works. First up, have a force graph:

Show Image


There's a very, very light leaf spring with 5.6 mm travel that makes up the linear component of the Selectric's travel. This bottoms out at about 37 cN.

The tactility and actuation are provided by a separate mechanism from that (which is, to be fair, also true of Cherry - Alps separates tactility and actuation from one another). However, Selectrics do it in a way that doesn't resemble anything that a computer keyboard can possibly do. The keylever engages an interposer, which is on a stiff spring (actually, two stiff springs which are engaged separately), and force goes up from about 17 cN (after the .1 mm of travel to load the linear spring) to about 62 cN very quickly (at about 1.3 mm of total travel). Meanwhile, the interposer is pushing against a bail that mechanically engages the print mechanism, and at about 3.8 mm of total travel, and 71 cN force (note how long you spend pushing the interposer against the bail, which gives a huge meaty tactile bump), the print mechanism engages, and this is where the real magic happens.

The force graph doesn't tell you everything that happens here, either, is the thing. The force graph shows a vertical dropoff.

What actually happens is that a camshaft actually KNOCKS THE INTERPOSER OUT FROM UNDER THE KEYLEVER. The key falls out from under your finger, dropping from 71 cN to about 31 cN force instantly. Because your finger isn't providing the force for this tactile drop, that's why it feels like the key falls away from you.

Finally, at about 5.6 mm of travel, the ride's over, and you bottom out.

Releasing the key is done purely against the leaf spring, so it's light, there's no reverse tactile sensation, nothing forcing your finger up hard.

Sounds so fun to type on.  I would like to try/own one some day.


Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline Special K

  • Posts: 423
Matias Tactile is a much looser switch than Cherry, and because of this it has a lot more clack to it and it's much louder to type on.  IMO Matias Tactile feels better, but it's not worth the trade off in noise, I use Blues 90% of the time.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what do you mean by "looser"?  Do you mean you can wiggle the stem in the housing more than you can with a cherry MX stem?

Yes, the stems wiggle more than Cherry switches.  The Tactile switches are just all around a looser switch by design.

OK, another dumb question: how does the stem being looser translate into a louder clack noise when you bottom out?

Also how do Matias tactile click switches compare to true complicated white alps?  Do true complicated white alps also have loose stems?
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
OK, another dumb question: how does the stem being looser translate into a louder clack noise when you bottom out?
It doesn’t. No idea how he came up with that.

Quote
Also how do Matias tactile click switches compare to true complicated white alps?  Do true complicated white alps also have loose stems?
They’re very similar feeling to white Alps. About the same amount of force to actuate, and maybe slightly more tactile. “Complicated” Alps switches are also a bit wobbly, but noticeably less than Matias switches. The leaf spring used for actuating the switch is also bigger and more substantial, which I suspect helps to stabilize the slider a bit.

Offline falkentyne

  • Posts: 283
I will say that Alps clicky switches are probably the closest I've gotten to Selectric in a computer keyboard, but that's still a very long way away.

In prose, I would describe how the Selectric feels by how it works. First up, have a force graph:

Show Image


There's a very, very light leaf spring with 5.6 mm travel that makes up the linear component of the Selectric's travel. This bottoms out at about 37 cN.

The tactility and actuation are provided by a separate mechanism from that (which is, to be fair, also true of Cherry - Alps separates tactility and actuation from one another). However, Selectrics do it in a way that doesn't resemble anything that a computer keyboard can possibly do. The keylever engages an interposer, which is on a stiff spring (actually, two stiff springs which are engaged separately), and force goes up from about 17 cN (after the .1 mm of travel to load the linear spring) to about 62 cN very quickly (at about 1.3 mm of total travel). Meanwhile, the interposer is pushing against a bail that mechanically engages the print mechanism, and at about 3.8 mm of total travel, and 71 cN force (note how long you spend pushing the interposer against the bail, which gives a huge meaty tactile bump), the print mechanism engages, and this is where the real magic happens.

The force graph doesn't tell you everything that happens here, either, is the thing. The force graph shows a vertical dropoff.

What actually happens is that a camshaft actually KNOCKS THE INTERPOSER OUT FROM UNDER THE KEYLEVER. The key falls out from under your finger, dropping from 71 cN to about 31 cN force instantly. Because your finger isn't providing the force for this tactile drop, that's why it feels like the key falls away from you.

Finally, at about 5.6 mm of travel, the ride's over, and you bottom out.

Releasing the key is done purely against the leaf spring, so it's light, there's no reverse tactile sensation, nothing forcing your finger up hard.

Sounds so fun to type on.  I would like to try/own one some day.

Yeah I typed on those in 1985 or 1986 or something.
The way he described it is EXACTLY how I remember it, but only after he put it into words.
It indeed sounded like something was doing some bouncing and bumping under the switch.  And boy, nothing has come close since.
Nothing spelt mechanical better than a Selectric keyboard.

The IBM Model F was created to emulate the feel of a Selectric. 

Just wondering,
IF it were possible to create a mechanical keyboard with a selectric designed mechanism, and with cherry-type long lifespan (of course it would be much thicker than a normal keyboard), would you guys pay some big $$ for it?

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
IF it were possible to create a mechanical keyboard with a selectric designed mechanism, and with cherry-type long lifespan (of course it would be much thicker than a normal keyboard), would you guys pay some big $$ for it?

“In April, 1973, the $11,000 MagCard II was introduced with 8,000 character memory, corrections capability and a card reader able to handle a pack of 50 magnetic cards. A communicating version was also offered.”

Inflation adjusted, that’s $58,000. Not sure anyone is going to fork over quite such big $$ today.
« Last Edit: Wed, 08 April 2015, 04:45:41 by jacobolus »

Offline bhtooefr

  • Posts: 1624
  • Location: Newark, OH, USA
  • this switch can tick sound of music
    • bhtooefr.org
There's even been Selectric-based terminals, for that matter, and there's still part of me that wants a Selectric 731 in 12 pitch correspondence coding. (11" platen, the smaller font, and compatible with normal typeballs.)

It is worth noting that the Selectric isn't even 2KRO (it's not a pure 1KRO machine like typebar machines, though, so we'll call it "1.5KRO" - you can roll onto the next key and the machine won't jam), and modifiers like the shift key were linear (I believe Selectric-based electronic machines used linear keyswitches under any keys that only worked in the electronic domain rather than the mechanical domain). Really, this is utterly impractical for something modern.

Now, re: other keyswitches designed to feel like it... I can get the whole idea of beam spring and buckling spring being designed to have a large tactile event (although beam spring's doesn't impress me that much), but they really don't feel anything like a Selectric. If you're providing the force for an element to buckle, the force will ramp up on a curve, rather than linearly, and then jump off the ramp. I'm not saying that beam spring or buckling spring are bad (I quite like them, especially Model F buckling spring), but they ain't Selectrics. (Cue someone posting a picture of a Model M2 box that says "Selectric-Touch Keyboard" - note, however, that the Wheelwriters and Quietwriters used Model Ms, and were originally marketed as the Selectric System/2000. So, strictly, a Model M is "Selectric-touch", because there were typewriters marketed under the Selectric brand that used actual Model Ms.)
« Last Edit: Wed, 08 April 2015, 04:55:04 by bhtooefr »

Offline OperationT

  • Posts: 21
  • Location: Toronto
Re: So what's the difference between Matias Clicky Switch and Cherry MX Blue?
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 05 August 2016, 00:40:39 »
All the Cherry mx switches feel very linear when you're typing fast. 100+WPM

Even Topre and Matias feel somewhat linear when you're going fast, but less so linear than Cherry

The Buckling spring is the only switch I've felt that really gives you that substantial vibration at the finger tips at all speeds..

But of course my speed limit is 135wpm, so I don't know if perhaps at 140 150+  even Buckling spring will feel linear..

Your description is very aligned with my thinking. I've always felt dissatisfied by the disappearance of tactility as I type faster (on Ergo Clears, and even more so on other MX switches).

Compared to MX switches, I enjoy the Topre because the tactility is still there for the most part even when I type fast, perhaps due in part to Topre's longer tactility range.

I've had no experience with Matias, hence I'd like to ask:

How does Topre's (55g) tactility compare to Matias' (Quiet) in terms of strength and feel? Which one maintains more as you increase your typing speed?

I might as well ask: how does Topre's (55g) tactility compare to Buckling Spring's at higher speeds (say 120)?


--Edit--

Thanks for the friendly reminder by chyros below. I've been lurking around for a while but didn't realize thread necroing is bad, but chyros' response led me to do a Google search about it. Then I realized my fault, especially since my questions aren't directly in line with the thread topic, and does not add to the thread. My apologies everyone.
« Last Edit: Fri, 05 August 2016, 15:17:34 by OperationT »
     
Code 104, Ergo Clears (65g)  |  VA87M, Zealios (65g)  |  RealForce 87U (55g)

Offline chyros

  • a.k.a. Thomas
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3397
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • Hello and welcome.
Re: So what's the difference between Matias Clicky Switch and Cherry MX Blue?
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 05 August 2016, 03:49:01 »
Holy thread necro :p .
Check my keyboard video reviews: