Groupbuys, invoices, and paying in Paypal as goods.

[Synjin]

I am writing this to see peoples opinion in the matter. I noticed that most GB organizes as well as sellers in GH, DT, and even MechMarket let thte buyer pay for the PP fees though quite recently, I was told by a person that this was against the PayPal ToS. I personally called paypal to ask about this and they said that if the buyer and seller agree upon who is covering the fees ahead of time then it should be fine even if the buyer covers the fee. What are people's opinion on this matter and who do you think should cover the PP fee?

Unbiased opinions please.

[greath]

I feel like sellers are going to decide how much money they want/need out of a sale, and use that figure no matter what. If they don't say "+ paypal" then it's just going to be added to the cost of the item, often detrimentally to the buyer because if you are going to round as a seller, generally you are going to round up, not down.

[Synjin]

honestly it isn't an extremely large price even if rounded up imo since roundups will only be a cent -10 cents depending on who the person selling is. personally I think that who covers the fees shouldn't matter because it all falls upon the agreed arrangement but othersmight feel different.

[JPG]

I am writing this to see peoples opinion in the matter. I noticed that most GB organizes as well as sellers in GH, DT, and even MechMarket let thte buyer pay for the PP fees though quite recently, I was told by a person that this was against the PayPal ToS. I personally called paypal to ask about this and they said that if the buyer and seller agree upon who is covering the fees ahead of time then it should be fine even if the buyer covers the fee. What are people's opinion on this matter and who do you think should cover the PP fee?

Unbiased opinions please.

You usually choose: You pay for the fees, or the seller add fees in price and then "pay for them". It's the same in the end. It could be decided that the fees are split between both parties.


To me, paying with paypal has 2 main advantages:


1: Makes payment easier for both buyer and seller
2: Makes the transaction more secure for the buyer, which is good for both the buyer and the seller since the buyer will buy with more confidence.


So in the end, it's good for both parties and in some way should be assumed by both parties. But in the end, it's a fee and however you see it, it has to be paid and it will probably reflect in the price itself in some way or another.


It's the same if you pay with a credit card in a physical store. the price the credit card company charges the seller is already included in the price of the item you buy. In fact it's worse, because if you decide to pay cash or debit, you still pay the fees for every customer that pays with credit.

[demik]

What PayPal said.

Agree before you buy, if you can't come to an understanding just don't make a deal.

You don't need to own everything, so don't get screwed over for no reason dude.

[tp4tissue]

I've witnessed many people haggle over a  US. "Nickle"..  $0.05


It really depends on how much money that paypal fee is ,  relative the the seller's income..


If the dude only makes 20,000 a year..    He has ever right to haggle over $3.00

[greath]

honestly it isn't an extremely large price even if rounded up imo since roundups will only be a cent -10 cents depending on who the person selling is. personally I think that who covers the fees shouldn't matter because it all falls upon the agreed arrangement but othersmight feel different.

What I'm saying is, say you buy a $100 keyboard, and the buyer doesn't say "+ PP fees." In that cost, they often would calculate that into what they are getting. "I want to get $100 for this keyboard, because that's what I put into it." They realize paypal fees exist, and they will notice it's $2.90 extra. No one rounds to "$103." They will round it to "$105" and call it a day. Saying "+PP fees" I think saves buyers some $ in the long run.

Either way it needs to be agreed upon first.

[Synjin]

I agree that PP is well worth it and has been nothing but amazing in terms of security and efficiency.

@Demik you are correct. I simply am curious since I had a 100% agreement wherein the person I was trading with decided to back out of the trade all because of a $7.77 difference that I even agreed to waive. I am most worried about the ToS thing he claimed because I do not want to do anything illegal and would love to see if any of the people who have been charging the buyer for the PP fee has encountered any legal issues prior. I don't want to go off solely on what a representative has told me

[SpAmRaY]

Buying and selling things isn't that hard.

[Synjin]

I've witnessed many people haggle over a  US. "Nickle"..  $0.05


It really depends on how much money that paypal fee is ,  relative the the seller's income..


If the dude only makes 20,000 a year..    He has ever right to haggle over $3.00

It was for $7.77 that I agreed to waive after the person complained it is too high
But like I said before, I want to be sure that no one else encountered legal problems with PP for charging the buyer the same amount in fees

[BunnyLake]

I've witnessed many people haggle over a  US. "Nickle"..  $0.05


It really depends on how much money that paypal fee is ,  relative the the seller's income..


If the dude only makes 20,000 a year..    He has ever right to haggle over $3.00

It was for $7.77 that I agreed to waive after the person complained it is too high

people selling want a set amount of money

if i want 100 dollars for something, you can do it one of 2 ways

you can say 100 + pp fees

or

you can say 104 (fees are included)

either way the buyer pays the same

if people are against having pp fees added, people will just alter their initial price of the item to include these costs

[demik]

I agree that PP is well worth it and has been nothing but amazing in terms of security and efficiency.

@Demik you are correct. I simply am curious since I had a 100% agreement wherein the person I was trading with decided to back out of the trade all because of a $7.77 difference that I even agreed to waive. I am most worried about the ToS thing he claimed because I do not want to do anything illegal and would love to see if any of the people who have been charging the buyer for the PP fee has encountered any legal issues prior. I don't want to go off solely on what a representative has told me

I think people are just taking advantage of you now. That's twice you've had a deal go sour at the last second. Either you are dealing with shady people or you're just terrible at closing a deal.

[Synjin]

I've witnessed many people haggle over a  US. "Nickle"..  $0.05


It really depends on how much money that paypal fee is ,  relative the the seller's income..


If the dude only makes 20,000 a year..    He has ever right to haggle over $3.00

It was for $7.77 that I agreed to waive after the person complained it is too high

people selling want a set amount of money

if i want 100 dollars for something, you can do it one of 2 ways

you can say 100 + pp fees

or

you can say 104 (fees are included)

either way the buyer pays the same

if people are against having pp fees added, people will just alter their initial price of the item to include these costs

You haven't encountered any issues with PP saying that you can't charge fees from buyers correct?

@Demik it was actually with a user who did this to me 2x prior and he seemed to really want the item this time so I thought I'd give him a chance to purchase it. Perhaps I was being too kind in assuming he won't do it the third time around especially after he asked for all the info on the item + conversed and assured he was going to buy it.

[tp4tissue]

Buying and selling things isn't that hard.

Pssh.. that's only cuz Spamray has millions of dollars.

Us poor people need to haggle...

[Synjin]

Buying and selling things isn't that hard.

Pssh.. that's only cuz Spamray has millions of dollars.

Us poor people need to haggle...

I heard spamray owns Sysco and Cintas???

[tp4tissue]

Buying and selling things isn't that hard.

Pssh.. that's only cuz Spamray has millions of dollars.

Us poor people need to haggle...

I heard spamray owns Sysco and Cintas???

He also only eats Spam..  that stuff is expensive..  unlike other luncheon meats, Spam it's made from expensive pork shoulders + ham..

[SpAmRaY]

Buying and selling things isn't that hard.

Pssh.. that's only cuz Spamray has millions of doll hairs.

Us poor people need to haggle...

This is probably true, but I just try and keep things simple.

Quick sales should be the goal because if someone actually stops and thinks about what they are doing it won't happen usually.

Also, now I'm hungry....thanks TP.

[tp4tissue]

Buying and selling things isn't that hard.

Pssh.. that's only cuz Spamray has millions of doll hairs.

Us poor people need to haggle...

This is probably true, but I just try and keep things simple.

Quick sales should be the goal because if someone actually stops and thinks about what they are doing it won't happen usually.

Also, now I'm hungry....thanks TP.

Oh man..  You take that new Low sodium Spam,  stirfry it with scrambled eggs..  It's delicious.. and because it's low sodium,  you can eat the whole can and not die..

[demik]

I've witnessed many people haggle over a  US. "Nickle"..  $0.05


It really depends on how much money that paypal fee is ,  relative the the seller's income..


If the dude only makes 20,000 a year..    He has ever right to haggle over $3.00

It was for $7.77 that I agreed to waive after the person complained it is too high

people selling want a set amount of money

if i want 100 dollars for something, you can do it one of 2 ways

you can say 100 + pp fees

or

you can say 104 (fees are included)

either way the buyer pays the same

if people are against having pp fees added, people will just alter their initial price of the item to include these costs

You haven't encountered any issues with PP saying that you can't charge fees from buyers correct?

@Demik it was actually with a user who did this to me 2x prior and he seemed to really want the item this time so I thought I'd give him a chance to purchase it. Perhaps I was being too kind in assuming he won't do it the third time around especially after he asked for all the info on the item + conversed and assured he was going to buy it.

Yeah, you need to learn dude. If he already did it twice just don't deal with them again.

And from now on add PayPal fee to your final price. Less headaches.

[fohat.digs]

Personally, I think that it is most fair and transparent when the seller "builds in" every charge and fee for a simple bottom-line price.

I try to go for "free shipping" when I sell, as much as possible, just to keep it all easy.

People are idiots when they buy merchandise from strangers and pay as "gift" since nobody has any protection then.

[jdcarpe]

I always state the terms of a sale at the beginning of the listing (or first PM, when it's not a listing in classifieds).

I have invoiced many people over many transactions, and I almost always ask for payment as goods. Then I almost always ask the buyer to pay the PayPal fees. I list it as a separate line item on the invoice, labeled PP Fees, with the exact amount (2.9% plus $0.30) listed. I have never once been asked about that by anyone at PayPal.

[absyrd]

Personally, I think that it is most fair and transparent when the seller "builds in" every charge and fee for a simple bottom-line price.

This is what I do. I just bake in the shipping and fee up front before I sell anything.

And I don't know why it became so commonplace on here, but last time I had a sale everyone just gift paid and did not select "goods". I guess you need to state in your FS thread "Please no gift payments for the good of all of us."

[esoomenona]

.

[esoomenona]

.

[Synjin]

I normally do item + fee and shipping especially if the item is a keyboard and requires flat rate. I guess most people do the same and haven't had issues with PP. Does PP look at people's transaction occasionally or do they just consider it free money and never look unless an issue arises?

@eso I actually have a standard template in the notes section that says my terms. I even added in a part that says I'm not responsible of the item once I ship it since I give them the option of how it is sent + I pack very very well. The guy just got back to me and it seems he never really intended to purchase it

[absyrd]

Please make sure your shipping address is correct and verified, and in the Notes section, please include your GH username and what you're purchasing.

Definitely this, too. Verified is a must and a confirmation of items and username always help things go smoothly.

[Synjin]

Please make sure your shipping address is correct and verified, and in the Notes section, please include your GH username and what you're purchasing.

Definitely this, too. Verified is a must and a confirmation of items and username always help things go smoothly.

I actually talked to a rep of PO before and they said as long as the item is shipped to the address whether it is verified or not should still have sellers covered with seller protection. This requires proof such as tracking of course.

[berserkfan]

No GB will ever be finished in 45 days. So any talk of buyer protection is moot. Many GBs take over 180 days, so you can’t even file credit card chargeback.

In any case when I first opened a pp account in the 1990s, they promised us all transactions would be free. Even GAVE me $5 to open my account. A FUNDED PP account didn’t charge fees for goods payment back in the good old days. Of course they changed TOS once they got enough people on board.

And regarding protection – the best protection is always good judgement. Avoid doing business with dubious people, simple as that. The hardcore hobbyists who talk a lot in the Making Things Together section tend to be mature and motivated to maintaining a good long term relationship with other ghers. The kids who frequent clacks threads seeking to get something free… I don’t think they are so motivated.

[SL89]

I would rather increase the up front cost and adjust it for whatever the fee would be to the seller and remain protected under 'goods / services' as opposed to 'gifts' that way both our asses are covered. I'm not sure when or how the burden of fees ended up on the buyer tbh. In all my other pursuits I've always found the fees to be on the seller (auto parts, instruments, etc.) I am more then comfortable paying the extra percentage, because to be real, if you can't afford that difference and do it right, you probably shouldn't be making the purchase.

[fohat.digs]

Does PP look at people's transaction occasionally or do they just consider it free money and never look unless an issue arises?

Definitely.

Over the course of 15 years, they have frozen my account at least 3-4 times, and I have a perfect record and 100% positive feedback.

When they do it, you are locked out for 3 weeks while they do something mysterious, and then they say that you are good to go.

My guess is that a torrent of "gifts" from all over the place, not on your birthday, and for odd amounts, would raise a red flag.

The only time they ever had any type of cause, in my case, was several years ago when my kids and I made some "magic wands" from the holly tree in our yard, and mentioned that "Harry Potter's wand was holly" in our ebay listing.

I took a sizable ration of **** from Disney or whoever on that one.

[HoffmanMyster]

I've witnessed many people haggle over a  US. "Nickle"..  $0.05


It really depends on how much money that paypal fee is ,  relative the the seller's income..


If the dude only makes 20,000 a year..    He has ever right to haggle over $3.00

It was for $7.77 that I agreed to waive after the person complained it is too high

people selling want a set amount of money

if i want 100 dollars for something, you can do it one of 2 ways

you can say 100 + pp fees

or

you can say 104 (fees are included)

either way the buyer pays the same

if people are against having pp fees added, people will just alter their initial price of the item to include these costs

Yeah, there's really no question about this.  The buyer pays all fees because he's the only one "losing" money.  If the seller thinks they're buying something, it's all semantics (or poor planning).

And in the case of a Group Buy, think about it this way.  The GB organizer isn't selling their own goods, they're essentially proxying and handling money collection (not to oversimplify).  So if they "pay" the fees, they would lose money...      That doesn't make any sense.  So whether it's $100 + $3 or $103 really doesn't matter.

[tbc]

Does PP look at people's transaction occasionally or do they just consider it free money and never look unless an issue arises?

Definitely.

Over the course of 15 years, they have frozen my account at least 3-4 times, and I have a perfect record and 100% positive feedback.

When they do it, you are locked out for 3 weeks while they do something mysterious, and then they say that you are good to go.

My guess is that a torrent of "gifts" from all over the place, not on your birthday, and for odd amounts, would raise a red flag.

The only time they ever had any type of cause, in my case, was several years ago when my kids and I made some "magic wands" from the holly tree in our yard, and mentioned that "Harry Potter's wand was holly" in our ebay listing.

I took a sizable ration of **** from Disney or whoever on that one.

how many gifts before you're flagged?

10? 30? 50? 100?

[berserkfan]

Definitely.

Over the course of 15 years, they have frozen my account at least 3-4 times, and I have a perfect record and 100% positive feedback.

When they do it, you are locked out for 3 weeks while they do something mysterious, and then they say that you are good to go.

My guess is that a torrent of "gifts" from all over the place, not on your birthday, and for odd amounts, would raise a red flag.

Gifts don’t cause that kind of trouble.

I’ve sold lots of times on geekhack now and had over 100 gifts in the past year alone. These were of odd amounts ranging from $2 to $265. No issues. In contrast when I sell by goods these pp scumbags lock up my money even 7 days after the tracking (which I’d submitted immediately) shows delivery. These pp guys are nuts; they even locked up my money on $15 of goods payment with no other outstanding shipments that I had not delivered yet.

WTF, don’t they even think that if I were a scammer I would at least have the good sense to scam $15k before running?

I’ve heard that maximum sum matters. Maybe you were receiving suspiciously large sums of money in gifts? My max per month of geekhack transactions resulted in only about 1.1k in gifts, since I have no artisan or Korean customs to sell. I was told by Singapore paypal that they don’t allow me to give gifts because of money laundering fears. If you were giving or receiving large sums of money in gifts constantly that might raise laundering questions.

[sethk_]

After running this GB for the switch stickers, I will add like 1$ for every X amount dollars to cover PP fees, but if I am selling member to member, I will invoice them, but won't make them pay PP fees as I find that somewhat unprofessional