Battlestar discussion

[tp4tissue]

Did they ever portray any negotiation with the cylons..

It doesn't seem like they wanted to OUTRIGHT kill us..



Why didn't they just talk to them..

________________________________________________


New question:


How many of Ya'll would betray humanity for .. Time with Number 6... ?? /hahahahahaa

[Leslieann]

Multiple times on at least two of the series runs (there was at least four) they either discusses prior negotiations or deliberated deals made with the Cylons.  In fact that was pretty much the only times they ever showed the Council of Twelve* other than when disciplining Adama.

One of the last movies starts with them discussing that very fact, they were on a spy mission into a neutral zone established between both. Adama was actually in charge of it and it went wrong (or as planned depending on perspective), triggering the latest war.

The Cylons were treated as slaves, much as we treat machines, and wanted mostly to be left alone and if you really pay close attention, the humans were the real bad guys, and probably learned to distrust humans as a result of how humans continued to distrust them. **


*The Council of Twelve was their governing body, even though it could often be presented as sort of a U.N. of ships. The name and number, much like the show, is steeped in Mormon religious undertones.

** Foreshadowing our future?

[fohat.digs]

the humans were the real bad guys, and probably learned to distrust humans as a result of how humans continued to distrust them.

It was ambiguous and implausible that they would have allowed "our" Earth to evolve for millennia (eons?) as a hybrid breeding ground without interference unless they felt that everyone had learned their lessons.
 

[nmur]

bears
beets

[Leslieann]

the humans were the real bad guys, and probably learned to distrust humans as a result of how humans continued to distrust them.

It was ambiguous and implausible that they would have allowed "our" Earth to evolve for millennia (eons?) as a hybrid breeding ground without interference unless they felt that everyone had learned their lessons.

(this may ramble a bit)
You need to have seen all of the series and movies to understand why.

Earth was one of the 13 colonies but they lost communication, they took off in one direction and they lost track of them. This was before Cylons were even created I believe. In fact Adama admits he doesn't even know the direction to go, he was just making it up as he goes. Worse, he wasn't even sure if the story was true, the whole thing is steeped in religion, so they can't be sure there ever was a 13th colony or if any of the stories were true, especially since they began to lose their religion in the face of what had happened. It was even theorized the 13th colony were killed by Cylons or may have even been Cylons, that's how little they actually knew or had to go on.

In the original/breakoff second series (often called Galactica 1984) they find and land on Earth, in 1984. They realize earth is too primitive and must have forgotten their origins, technology and the other 12 colonies and lead the Cylons off in another direction. The latest series they are looking for Earth, but never find it and decide to create what is essentially Earth 2.

As for why I say the are the bad guys, Adama all but admits it in one of the last movies that detail the mission. Humans were working on a genocidal weapon, while claiming the Cylons were planning for war. They weren't, which was part of the spy mission (along with picking up the scientist working on it). Adama's failed spy mission is what triggered the attack on Caprica and because Adamas ship was older, it wasn't as easily detected and shut down by the Cyclons who had access codes to shut down every defensive system on Caprica and modern ships. Galactica was actually scheduled for the scrapyard or major upgrades following that mission. It was that lack of easy detection that it was chosen for the mission, and why it managed to escape destruction.

The humans didn't realize how prepared Cylons were or how technologically advanced they had become, the last time anyone had seen Cyclons was the old style chrome domes and the older Battlestars were more than a match for them. Cylons were not supposed to be capable of improving themselves, but even if they had, the humans thought the new ships would easily take care of them. Unfortunately, humans had been helping them progress and spy, which was why they knew about Adama's mission and all the codes to shut down their defenses.

In the recent series it would stand that Cylons, being older brain dead models when they left under a peace treaty would really have no reason to even look for Earth. This sort of conflicts with the original series though as in it, they had Baltar leading a Cylon division and he was not only aware of Earth, but he also knew that was where Adama was heading.

The problem is the latest is a reboot and doesn't follow cannon so some things were lost, re-written or just changed.

[tp4tissue]

the humans were the real bad guys,

/Tp4 Cylon detector is going off..  beep beep bepp
/Putting Leslieann on my cylon watchlist


What I can't understand is..

It should be obvious that the humans can't run forever given their fleet in battlestar..

I don't understand why they didn't just surrender..


They're losing more by the continuous pursuit..

We've already lost the war..   another confusing part is in that, WHAT was lost is quite unclear..



In such an advanced state of technology..  the population is rather inconsequential.. not saying we should voluntarily die..  but what was the point of killing each other..


It just doesn't make sense.. the cylons don't need another planet..   and the humans don't need to go kill cylons because it's quite obvious the universe is big enough..


And they should know that it's more than big enough given that they both have FTL.. 


I just don't understand what the True Conflict is besides,  oh the robots killed some of us.. now we hate them..

[fohat.digs]

You need to have seen all of the series and movies to understand why.

Earth was one of the 13 colonies but they lost communication, they took off in one direction and they lost track of them.

The problem is the latest is a reboot and doesn't follow cannon so some things were lost, re-written or just changed.

I have seen all the series and movies, including watching the 1978 series on TV when it came out.

My impression was that Earth was the 13th colony but that we had somehow been backsliding for millennia and when we were "re-discovered" it was pointless to try to integrate with us. And those Cylons may have been so primitive that they never would have actually managed to find us.

My understanding of the reboot chronology was that the show was taking place a million or more years ago, that the 13th colony was a myth, and that our "Earth" was an as yet "undiscovered" and uninhabited planet. Without watching it again my memory may have faded, but I thought that I recalled that in "our" current Earth the remains of the first human/cylon hybrid had just been discovered and identified as our "Lucy".

Thus the whole "it has all happened before and will all happen again" theme.

However, with these Cylons being so advanced and continually evolving and improving, it seems implausible that they would not have long since explored the entire galaxy and found "our" Earth at some point during that vast epoch.

[tp4tissue]

Also.. James Callis... luckiest guy on the planet..

//so jelly

[Leslieann]

I have seen all the series and movies, including watching the 1978 series on TV when it came out.

~cut~

However, with these Cylons being so advanced and continually evolving and improving, it seems implausible that they would not have long since explored the entire galaxy and found "our" Earth at some point during that vast epoch.

I think we are on the same track for the most part, and yes, my remembrance is also a bit foggy.

As for the Cylons exploring, my only thoughts are that it isn't logical. Baltar and the humans in the first series often confused the Cylons because of wants and desires, it wasn't logical so it confused them.

They did however expand, in a few episodes they were shocked to find Cylons in random places.

What I can't understand is..
It should be obvious that the humans can't run forever given their fleet in battlestar..

I don't understand why they didn't just surrender..

cut

In such an advanced state of technology..  the population is rather inconsequential.. not saying we should voluntarily die..  but what was the point of killing each other..

It just doesn't make sense.. the cylons don't need another planet..   and the humans don't need to go kill cylons because it's quite obvious the universe is big enough..

They can't run forever and they actually had to steal gas from Cylons in the original series and why they settled on "earth 2" in the latest.

Surrender? You answer it yourself, the population is inconsequential. They are robots who have no qualms with killing, they nearly killed Baltar in the original series multiple times, they only kept him around because he was useful. Think like a machine, to a machine, anything not useful is a waste of resources.


As for the Cylons point of view.
Humans enslaved them, they revolted and left. Humans keep tracking, watching, hounding and in the case of the last movie still wanted to kill them all. Why? We're human. You hate your enemy and humans still viewed Cylons as the enemy. It doesn't need to be rational, just look at how many in the US view Muslims, Atheists, blacks, browns, Jews, Natives, LGBT, if you are different, you MUST be a threat. And you are even more of a threat if you were a former slave owned by said humans. Does this sound at all familiar to people in the U.S.?

It would make sense for the Cylons to not trust their former masters, however trust isn't entirely logical and Cylons had plenty of evidence to show the humans couldn't be trusted.


In fact if you want another tie to modern day life, this is why we have the UN and Ambassadors, so we can air grievances and discuss concerns, this was something that real lacked. Without this neutral ground for communication you become isolationists and paranoid of the other guy, anger builds and eventually someone starts shooting. This is also why we lay out destroyed B-52's and are kept up to date on each others arsenals. If everyone knows what the other person is doing, no one has any surprises.

[fohat.digs]

Baltar and the humans in the first series often confused the Cylons because of wants and desires, it wasn't logical so it confused them.

I was not clear about when I was talking about the original and when about the re-boot.

The original was obviously a compressed time line since it seemed like the "13th colony" had apparently become separated, found Earth, settled it, and devolved in a relatively shorter time period without records or memories of their origins. It made sense that the original Cylons had not found it or cared about it since they were relatively primitive themselves. How all that that had happened to a space-faring race in the first place was never discussed. (and your comments also made me think what a Trump-like buffoon the original Baltar was)

In the re-imagining, the time scale was obviously much greater, and "our ancestors" had crippled their opportunities and forced a re-boot by scuttling their technology and deliberately putting themselves into an environment requiring self-sufficiency. Presumably that was to prevent detection as well as to get a clean start with the new society.

I disliked but generally accepted the "supernatural" aspects most of the time, but I was particularly irritated when Thrace came back from the dead and even more so when Baltar and 6 were seen walking around in our modern world. Presumably this is to say that both humans and Cylons have some sort of "immortal souls" that have an (at least limited) ability to interact with the physical world.

[xtrafrood]

bears
beets

..battlestar galactica

[tp4tissue]

By season 3,  occupation..


What do the humans have to gain by being so resistent..

The cylons are not making undue requests of the humans...


Why are they still fighting..

It just seems like they want to hang out and watch netflix.

[Leslieann]

By season 3,  occupation..
What do the humans have to gain by being so resistent..
The cylons are not making undue requests of the humans...

Why are they still fighting..

As an American, do you have to really ask that?

But in all seriousness, people hate being controlled, doesn't matter if they would do the exact same thing if they were free, they hate not having a choice in the matter.

[tp4tissue]

By season 3,  occupation..
What do the humans have to gain by being so resistent..
The cylons are not making undue requests of the humans...

Why are they still fighting..

As an American, do you have to really ask that?

But in all seriousness, people hate being controlled, doesn't matter if they would do the exact same thing if they were free, they hate not having a choice in the matter.

That's unrealistic, Germany hated being controlled and rode on, which was post ww1, then they did the hard shift into nationalism,  ww2,   and now they're among the most tolerant..

You would think Humanity in battlestar, losing everybody except 49,000 people,  would come to the same realization.. 

[Leslieann]

By season 3,  occupation..
What do the humans have to gain by being so resistent..
The cylons are not making undue requests of the humans...

Why are they still fighting..

As an American, do you have to really ask that?

But in all seriousness, people hate being controlled, doesn't matter if they would do the exact same thing if they were free, they hate not having a choice in the matter.

That's unrealistic, Germany hated being controlled and rode on, which was post ww1, then they did the hard shift into nationalism,  ww2,   and now they're among the most tolerant..

You would think Humanity in battlestar, losing everybody except 49,000 people,  would come to the same realization..

You are talking about robots, robots have no conscience, where Germans did. Even Hitler bent the rules for those he knew and liked (high ranking half Jewish officials were given new credentials), robots have no compulsion to do so. So there is no reason for the robots to save the humans, and therefore no reason for the humans to trust the robots.


You may want to study history to understand why all of that happened in Germany, it wasn't just them coming to realize they needed to be nationalists or to be nice. Following WW1 the world insisted Germany pay to rebuild what they had destroyed, however the German economy was in just as bad of shape. They were left almost no choice but to become nationalists (Germans should beware Greece for the same reasons). It took another war and the Allies agreeing to help rebuild their country for things to settle down. Lesson learned? Don't leave a country in ruins and expect it to repay or recover (hellooo Iraq!).


At any rate,
You want to argue something is unrealistic (on tv no less), when every morning I have to wake to realization that Donald Trump, a man who isn't responsible enough for a Twitter account, is now in charge of our nuclear arsenal.

Relevant Youtube Link

[tp4tissue]

Feel bad for the cylon human hybrid..

She's merely a token for a potential peace treaty.

[tp4tissue]

What's completely unbelievable is the fact that the cylons don't have an active wireless communications system with each other or a central hub network.

This is the same for cylons as humans not having a cellphone..

Bad writing..

[Leslieann]

What's completely unbelievable is the fact that the cylons don't have an active wireless communications system with each other or a central hub network.

Star Wars, over what amounts to a 70+(?) year span, they can use lasers, lightsabers, holograms, robots, hovercars, and travel faster than light, and yet every ship seems to have a CCTV system straight out of the 60's and com systems out of the 80's.

[tp4tissue]

What's completely unbelievable is the fact that the cylons don't have an active wireless communications system with each other or a central hub network.

Star Wars, over what amounts to a 70+(?) year span, they can use lasers, lightsabers, holograms, robots, hovercars, and travel faster than light, and yet every ship seems to have a CCTV system straight out of the 60's and com systems out of the 80's.

Starwars story wise is a thrown together mess, much like harry potter..   But you'd expect that given their authors..  Both starwars and harry potter excelled at things OTHER than story..


For something like Battle star though..  they had a team of trained writers to put pieces together..   We'd expect more coherence... hahahahahha

[Leslieann]

What's completely unbelievable is the fact that the cylons don't have an active wireless communications system with each other or a central hub network.

Star Wars, over what amounts to a 70+(?) year span, they can use lasers, lightsabers, holograms, robots, hovercars, and travel faster than light, and yet every ship seems to have a CCTV system straight out of the 60's and com systems out of the 80's.

Starwars story wise is a thrown together mess, much like harry potter..   But you'd expect that given their authors..  Both starwars and harry potter excelled at things OTHER than story..


For something like Battle star though..  they had a team of trained writers to put pieces together..   We'd expect more coherence... hahahahahha

You can do this on any show.
The CCTV one though always annoyed me, and I know why it was done, but it just seems silly.

Some shows like The Simpsons, even do it on purpose to mess with people.

[tp4tissue]

What's crazy is..

They all want to live --on earth--


But honestly.. earth isn't even that great..  it's alrite... but they got a homeostatic space ship..

TBH..   even if earth might seem fresh for a year,  who wouldn't rather be in the space ship given time.. ..

[Leslieann]

What's crazy is..

They all want to live --on earth--


But honestly.. earth isn't even that great..  it's alrite... but they got a homeostatic space ship..

TBH..   even if earth might seem fresh for a year,  who wouldn't rather be in the space ship given time.. ..

Are you nuts?
You can only survive in space so long and there is nowhere to go if anything happens.

If I remember right only one or two of the ships that survived the attack were older than Galactica, which was due to be scrapped on return from this mission, it's extremely old and outdated. While that old technology (which had fewer electronics to be hacked) allowed them to survive, it's literally falling apart as they fly through space. It's not a matter of if Galactica will break down, it's a matter of how soon, and how many times they can repair those parts before they are dead. Every spare part for the ship, is on that ship, there is no manufacturing, no resupply, they don't even have a site to refuel at.


As for Earth, they (incorrectly) expected Earth to be the closest thing to Caprica, so it made sense to try and go there rather than trying to rebuild civilization from the ground up. They didn't count on Earth having lost it's origins and technology, which probably was a bit of irony, considering they passed a few, smaller, modern civilizations along the way but chose to keep going to Earth.

[tp4tissue]

I'm including the cylon ship..


First thing Tp4 would do as President of Survivors..

Call the cylons..  Hey guys..  Can we haz the cylon upgrade...

Cylons be like,  Alrite,, but you can't be ****s to us anymore..


Tp4 would be like.. Heck I ONLY use the ERGODOX...


Cylon peace treaty assured..   They come check out my Ergodox.. and be like.. This is a guy we can TRUST...


Booom... Space ship life 4 ever..

No more this dirt, no more cyanobacterial ,  /Jump




Then Of course.. every human gets to marry a cylon.. So..  Tp4 would reinstitute polygamy, since cylons probably doesn't care..

I would like 2x 3s, 2x 8s,  and 3x 6s.


Probably get bored of that eventually.. and have them make me into a spaceship.. yea.. that makes perfect sense..




See, this would be a fantastic tv show.. right there..  sigh....... caprica spinoff was so boring.

[fohat.digs]

Are you nuts?

Hello

"tp4tissue
Thread Starter"

[Leslieann]

I'm including the cylon ship..


First thing Tp4 would do as President of Survivors..

Call the cylons..  Hey guys..  Can we haz the cylon upgrade...

Cylons be like,  Alrite,, but you can't be ****s to us anymore..

{cut}
Probably get bored of that eventually.. and have them make me into a spaceship.. yea.. that makes perfect sense..

You should probably watch the first series before making deals with Cylons.
Baltar did it, it didn't quite go as he planned.