Author Topic: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions  (Read 798131 times)

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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5500 on: Thu, 08 April 2021, 09:49:32 »
I definitely wish there were non-MX style switches with MX style mounting points.

Kailh box switches?

what would you like different in an mx? truly curious. in my case i've gone from searching for the holy grail to enjoying the great tools i have on my desk. same thing with hi-fi. not trying to remove that last veil of silk in front of the mic or gaining a wider soundstage to enjoying wonderful music. def does not mean i didn't spend time and money trying for a while  :D

I definitely wish there were non-MX style switches with MX style mounting points.

I know you didn't ask me, but I think literally everything is a fair consideration.  ;D

MX does nothing outstandingly other than just work when you need them to. Everything could be improved upon, depending upon taste. The only MX switch I still use on a regular basis is MX red, because linears are linears ... so good enough.

?
  • Sensible
  • Convenient when the kb is moved
  • Looks good

One downside is that it gets caught on everything, including itself. I run my cables through the cable management holes on the OEM stands for monitors when suitable and it is a pain dealing with coils whenever I swap boards a lot. I don't think anybody cared much about cable management back then though other than keeping it from getting damaged.

One solution I have used is a PS/2 extension cable that is about 6 foot long that is not coiled at all. Just in case the computer is sitting at a distance greater than the SDL cable can reach. This way, I avoid putting strain on the original cable and still have the flexibility of movement. In its simplest form, it may be primitive, but then again, you can always get an SDL to USB cable if you wish. I find my solution to be very inexpensive and it works both ways very well.

Sure, that makes sense. At the end of the day though, unless you really need the cable to reach varying lengths without any excess you can usually just tuck somewhere, why have it coiled? I think it made sense for vintage boards, and maybe for some today. I don't mind the cable just being straight and longer though myself.


(I do wish there was some way to try the remade Model F around my neck of the woods.)

Will he not even ship it directly to where you're located?

I've not checked, I could probably get one out here one way or another, but at $400 I'd like to try it before buying. And... these days I need some degree of quiet for family reasons.

You're missing the boat, unfortunately. Capacitive buckling spring prices are getting ridiculous on the secondhand market and who knows when Ellipse may pack up and stop taking new orders once production slows. One of Orihalcon's unrestored F107s just sold for $2,400 on Ebay. I still can't even wrap my head around that.

I hope you manage to find one to try.

Yeah, MX-style switches are consistent, and they're what we have, but I wish there were more switches that used the same mount as MX-styles but a different mechanism. Something that leads to more inherent tactility, maybe? I don't know, I'm not an engineer, all I know is that I want my tactiles to be heavy, have a good bump you can really feel, and if I'm using clickys in something like a macro pad (where that extra feedback helps, at least for me, for knowing that the button's been pushed quickly without bottoming out for things like soundboard triggers and meme chat macros), I'm always wishing for more tactility and a deeper-sounding click than is probably possible with current designs. That's not to say MX-styles don't have their place, they certainly do, but I would love to see more varied designs. Maybe I just haven't done enough research?

We have Topre, which is my strong preference. I thought I didn't really care that much, but recently moved back to Realforce when my desk setup changed and my split keyboard cables were too short to accommodate this. Turns out that Topre beats the living daylights out of Outemu Skies (which were selected after trying a good handful of silenced tactile options) and I haven't been able to bring myself to move back (longer cables have been here for weeks now). We also have vintage options- my bucking spring experiences is what makes me want to to try an F some day. I've had Alps, which I also preferred over MX. Even good scissor switches.

Yes, I think that if more people were willing and able to try vintage alternatives to MX, a lot less people would be so worried about further modifying/refining MX. I think people would be less likely to be swayed to abandon it if their preference is already for relatively light and/or rounded tactile switches without much refinement/complexity of feel though.

MX is what we have, but MX is... such a low level of mediocrity that we are wallowing in (getting back to the thread topic). This isn't the best analogy, but it makes me think of East Germans aspiring to own Ladas. Or that old English phrase, about making a silk purse out of a pig's ear.

Agreed

That said, I believe that it was Maledicted who recommended Box Jades and Navies to me last year. I did try those, and of all the MX variants I got in (of a dozen or so) they impressed me most- there were actually interesting, and not more 'run of the mill almost exactly the same as the next switch'. Unfortunately, I can't use clickies at the moment.

We need more options like those click bar switches out there so that people can enjoy how varied and interesting switches can be without buying something 30+ years old.

I enjoy spring ping.

I enjoy ping in all forms as well, rattle too usually. Depends on the board and switches though.

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5501 on: Thu, 08 April 2021, 12:50:24 »
I agree. Manufacturers who experiment with novel designs should be encouraged. I like what Kailh did with the BOX designs, and it has provided some interesting alternatives to stock MX.

I've already mentioned the Zeal attempt to create an ALPS-like switch that is MX-compatible, and that should be encouraged as well.

Really, we don't need to use Cherry designs. Just something that can fit in an MX PCB and use MX keycaps.

Offline Leopard223

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5502 on: Fri, 09 April 2021, 18:51:55 »
The MK community is too apologetic this days with the 'preference' mentality, every review or video says something and quickly add 'YMMV' or "But it's preference".
Gaining info is getting harder when almost every input is "preference"..

Offline bkrownd

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5503 on: Fri, 09 April 2021, 20:55:23 »

  Not quite an unpopular opinion, but an outsider's confusion - what is up with the huge number of micro-"vendors" for keyboard/keycap group buys?  It seems odd that a handful of them haven't yet hoovered up the lion's share of group buy activity. 

My Group Buys: SA Nightlight, GMK Tuzi, ePBT RamenStop, GMK Iceberg, IFK Peach Tea, KAT Space Dust
Considering: GMK Stargaze
Non-GB sets: Akko World Tour Tokyo (V1), Coral Sea, SA Lime
Boards: GMMK TKL, Akko 3084, Kono 84

Offline NoteMakoti

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5504 on: Fri, 09 April 2021, 21:58:42 »
The MK community is too apologetic this days with the 'preference' mentality, every review or video says something and quickly add 'YMMV' or "But it's preference".
Gaining info is getting harder when almost every input is "preference"..
I’d say the opposite, what with people obsessing over stock smoothness, 63.5G springs, and flexible plates lately.

Offline doggo1dance

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5505 on: Sat, 10 April 2021, 06:24:33 »
The MK community is too apologetic this days with the 'preference' mentality, every review or video says something and quickly add 'YMMV' or "But it's preference".
Gaining info is getting harder when almost every input is "preference"..

Its either this or gatekeeping, pick your poision

Offline Igby

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5506 on: Sat, 10 April 2021, 19:55:48 »
- The Keychron K4 layout (I don't know what it's called) is superior to TKL. https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k4-wireless-mechanical-keyboard-version-2
- Backlit keys are essential.
- Coiled cables with breakaways are silly.
- 40% ortholinear keyboards are insane but possibly genius.
- Rubber domes are fine.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5507 on: Sat, 10 April 2021, 21:53:27 »
The MK community is too apologetic this days with the 'preference' mentality, every review or video says something and quickly add 'YMMV' or "But it's preference".
Gaining info is getting harder when almost every input is "preference"..

Its either this or gatekeeping, pick your poision

It's standard marketing for selling people things they don't need.  Because it's virtually impossible to justify the sale of the product based on Utility or Performance, as almost all keyboards do the same thing and equally well.

So how do we market the product and justify the sale, by telling people that Because they're DIFFERENT and SPECIAL in some way, their Pointless acquisition mentality Deserves a product.  This is Vanity marketing.

Offline yui

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5508 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 03:07:45 »
The MK community is too apologetic this days with the 'preference' mentality, every review or video says something and quickly add 'YMMV' or "But it's preference".
Gaining info is getting harder when almost every input is "preference"..

Its either this or gatekeeping, pick your poision
i do think that the over-apologetics are a reaction to the gatekeepers, both exist and oppose each others, one try to make everyone feel good, the other try to make everyone feel bad and leave them alone. i kinda often fall into the 1st category i think, but i'd rather be there than a gate-keeping jerk. maybe our forum have more of the apology kind but from what i hear reddit seems to have more gatekeepers, so who knows who wins overall. and youtubers often have a monetary incentive in getting the community to grow, so they are rather unlikely to fall into the gatekeeper archetype.
although they are kinda right, i am a big fan of big heavy clicky boards (M122 being my current favorite) and 2 friend of mine both hate my M, one likes lite clickies and the other very lite tactile, all 3 opinions are valid.
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5509 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 07:47:26 »
I'm in the 'preference' camp, but think that lots of keyboard options (switches, cases, caps) these days just suck. I don't really see any conflict with thinking both at the same time.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5510 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 12:03:05 »
- The Keychron K4 layout (I don't know what it's called) is superior to TKL. https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k4-wireless-mechanical-keyboard-version-2

I have no need for a numberpad myself. To each their own. Both would be usable for me as I don't care about space between the nav cluster and/or arrow keys, etc. It is a big deal for a lot of people though.

- Backlit keys are essential.

Why's that? No touch typing? I think backlighting is useful for a wireless HTPC keyboard that might be used at odd angles without any desk and/or need frequent use of potentially proprietary media control mappings. Otherwise, I often type in bed with a keyboard under the blanket.

- Coiled cables with breakaways are silly.

Agreed. I think all "artisans" are silly unless you want a very specific aesthetic that you can't easily find otherwise and/or you want something more durable than can be purchased retail.

- Rubber domes are fine.

Good ones are. I would even argue that good dome with slider boards are better than MX, to my tastes anyway.

I'm in the 'preference' camp, but think that lots of keyboard options (switches, cases, caps) these days just suck. I don't really see any conflict with thinking both at the same time.

You can still describe objective differences between the characteristics of a given switch, case, plate, modification, etc, that could be helpful for someone who hasn't been able to experience them themselves. Whether or not those characteristics are desirable are what comes down to preference. The problem stems from people who proclaim things like "beam spring is the one true clicky switch", "Topre is the best tactile switch", "PBT double shots or bust", etc.

Offline alertArchitect

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5511 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 13:00:26 »
- Backlit keys are essential.

Why's that? No touch typing? I think backlighting is useful for a wireless HTPC keyboard that might be used at odd angles without any desk and/or need frequent use of potentially proprietary media control mappings. Otherwise, I often type in bed with a keyboard under the blanket.

Backlit keys are good for some people. People who weren't raised on touch typing and aren't used to it, older people who need that backlight to see the keys they aren't used to using, etc. Backlighting is not only good for aesthetics, but accessibility for some people.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5512 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 13:58:22 »
- Backlit keys are essential.

Why's that? No touch typing? I think backlighting is useful for a wireless HTPC keyboard that might be used at odd angles without any desk and/or need frequent use of potentially proprietary media control mappings. Otherwise, I often type in bed with a keyboard under the blanket.

Backlit keys are good for some people. People who weren't raised on touch typing and aren't used to it, older people who need that backlight to see the keys they aren't used to using, etc. Backlighting is not only good for aesthetics, but accessibility for some people.

I learned touch typing in high school, which wasn't even a required course (and not a particularly popular elective). This was when the typewriter was dead but before computers were as ascendent as they are today. We had a computer present at home since I was a small child, although there wasn't much typing going on on it at that point since we didn't even have a modem. I don't recall whether or not it really had any sort of word processing software either. It was an old hand-me-down Macintosh Performa. I did use computers for typing relatively commonly though through all of middle school, and sometimes prior to it. There was a computer class that touched on it briefly at the start of middle school with Mavis Beacon, but not enough for any of it to have been meaningful. I remember finally being able to touch type being a breath of fresh air. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Backlighting is obviously of utility for people who can't yet touch type. But why limit yourself forever?

Offline alertArchitect

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5513 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 14:26:39 »
I learned touch typing in high school, which wasn't even a required course (and not a particularly popular elective). This was when the typewriter was dead but before computers were as ascendent as they are today. We had a computer present at home since I was a small child, although there wasn't much typing going on on it at that point since we didn't even have a modem. I don't recall whether or not it really had any sort of word processing software either. It was an old hand-me-down Macintosh Performa. I did use computers for typing relatively commonly though through all of middle school, and sometimes prior to it. There was a computer class that touched on it briefly at the start of middle school with Mavis Beacon, but not enough for any of it to have been meaningful. I remember finally being able to touch type being a breath of fresh air. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Backlighting is obviously of utility for people who can't yet touch type. But why limit yourself forever?

I'm in much of the same boat myself, but there's also the issue that some people just aren't as savvy with technology to the level most people on this forum, or most of my social circles if I'm being honest, take for granted. I'm only 20, and I know for a fact there are people my age who hunt-and-peck their emails and would rather work on a car engine than a computer or keyboard. There are people who are stubborn because "it's the way they learned to do it," or simply because bad habits are hard to break. And not every works a job where touch typing is necessary, or have hobbies or frequent places where it's useful. Not to mention all of the older individuals who only use their computers to look at Facebook, emails, and maybe watch some TV. Different people have different needs and skillsets, and not everyone needs to be able to touch type, even if it is a very versatile and useful skill.

And it's not people limiting themselves or just focusing on other things, either. There are people who have hand and wrist disabilities that affect the mobility of their fingers, making hunt-and-peck the only viable way for them to type easily, without pain, and / or at all. And that's not even counting the other types of problems that makes hunt-and-peck better for some people even if it is the slower way to type. Yes, you don't need backlights if you know how to touch type, but not every has the skill or can even acquire it. That's not to say you have to suddenly use them if you don't need them or like them, but that's no reason to write them off entirely.

Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5514 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 14:59:46 »
my son is learning to read and write so a layout of a keyboard throws him off, but he prefers to look at the caps on my boards since they are non backlit and he can see the legends more clearly than the craptastic gamer fonts used on most shine-throughs (like on his $25 Otemu Blu board).  I forced myself to learn to touch type since shine through was never really an option, so using a hunt-peck format was next to impossible to use in dimly lit areas when i would be on my rigs the most.

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D


Offline Leopard223

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5515 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 20:44:50 »
The MK community is too apologetic this days with the 'preference' mentality, every review or video says something and quickly add 'YMMV' or "But it's preference".
Gaining info is getting harder when almost every input is "preference"..

Its either this or gatekeeping, pick your poision
i do think that the over-apologetics are a reaction to the gatekeepers, both exist and oppose each others, one try to make everyone feel good, the other try to make everyone feel bad and leave them alone. i kinda often fall into the 1st category i think, but i'd rather be there than a gate-keeping jerk. maybe our forum have more of the apology kind but from what i hear reddit seems to have more gatekeepers, so who knows who wins overall. and youtubers often have a monetary incentive in getting the community to grow, so they are rather unlikely to fall into the gatekeeper archetype.
although they are kinda right, i am a big fan of big heavy clicky boards (M122 being my current favorite) and 2 friend of mine both hate my M, one likes lite clickies and the other very lite tactile, all 3 opinions are valid.
I’m talking about the people commenting “preference” over every question.
It pretty much stops the flow and gathering of info in the MK community, especially in a hobby where it’s very expensive to try things, usually seen on Reddit..

Luckily I don’t see it here, that’s why I’m here  ;D

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5516 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 23:47:12 »
I learned touch typing in high school, which wasn't even a required course (and not a particularly popular elective). This was when the typewriter was dead but before computers were as ascendent as they are today. We had a computer present at home since I was a small child, although there wasn't much typing going on on it at that point since we didn't even have a modem. I don't recall whether or not it really had any sort of word processing software either. It was an old hand-me-down Macintosh Performa. I did use computers for typing relatively commonly though through all of middle school, and sometimes prior to it. There was a computer class that touched on it briefly at the start of middle school with Mavis Beacon, but not enough for any of it to have been meaningful. I remember finally being able to touch type being a breath of fresh air. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Backlighting is obviously of utility for people who can't yet touch type. But why limit yourself forever?

I'm in much of the same boat myself, but there's also the issue that some people just aren't as savvy with technology to the level most people on this forum, or most of my social circles if I'm being honest, take for granted. I'm only 20, and I know for a fact there are people my age who hunt-and-peck their emails and would rather work on a car engine than a computer or keyboard. There are people who are stubborn because "it's the way they learned to do it," or simply because bad habits are hard to break. And not every works a job where touch typing is necessary, or have hobbies or frequent places where it's useful. Not to mention all of the older individuals who only use their computers to look at Facebook, emails, and maybe watch some TV. Different people have different needs and skillsets, and not everyone needs to be able to touch type, even if it is a very versatile and useful skill.

And it's not people limiting themselves or just focusing on other things, either. There are people who have hand and wrist disabilities that affect the mobility of their fingers, making hunt-and-peck the only viable way for them to type easily, without pain, and / or at all. And that's not even counting the other types of problems that makes hunt-and-peck better for some people even if it is the slower way to type. Yes, you don't need backlights if you know how to touch type, but not every has the skill or can even acquire it. That's not to say you have to suddenly use them if you don't need them or like them, but that's no reason to write them off entirely.

My primary aged son is learning to touch type, I've thrown Mavis Beacon at him- yes, this program still exists! It's really quite good, much better than any of the free online typing tutorials. And it also works with Kinesis split boards, which is a bit odd. Even if he goes off on some career tangent that doesn't require typing, he should at least learn it during school so that it's not a barrier to his more complex learning.

It blows my mind that there are teenagers who cannot touch type, it's just such a fundamental skill, being able to translate thought to written word quickly and with minimal interruption to thinking.

Sure, there are folks who have physical hinderances, but this is a tiny minority that shouldn't sway the average. Typing today is more important than handwriting, throughout school it really should be a fundamental skill.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 April 2021, 23:50:24 by jamster »

Offline alertArchitect

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5517 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 09:31:36 »
My primary aged son is learning to touch type, I've thrown Mavis Beacon at him- yes, this program still exists! It's really quite good, much better than any of the free online typing tutorials. And it also works with Kinesis split boards, which is a bit odd. Even if he goes off on some career tangent that doesn't require typing, he should at least learn it during school so that it's not a barrier to his more complex learning.

It blows my mind that there are teenagers who cannot touch type, it's just such a fundamental skill, being able to translate thought to written word quickly and with minimal interruption to thinking.

Sure, there are folks who have physical hinderances, but this is a tiny minority that shouldn't sway the average. Typing today is more important than handwriting, throughout school it really should be a fundamental skill.

After a day to think on it, I should probably have made it much clearer: I'm not trying to disagree with the point that everyone who can should learn to touch type. I also agree that typing is more important than handwriting in many situations today. But I'm also trying to look at the reality of the situation, essentially that, no matter how much you try, there's still going to be a statistically significant number of people who can't or won't learn that skill. Elderly people who are used to hunt-and-peck (which is a lot of what you see here in the southern US), people with physical or mental disabilities that make that particular skill much harder or impossible to learn, etc. I'm not trying to say we shouldn't encourage the learning of touch typing, just that the fact of the matter is there are a lot of people who just won't, and for those people, backlights on keyboards are a good utility. I'm also trying to keep in consideration the bias inherent in the fact that this is, at the end of the day, a forum for keyboard enthusiasts. We're always looking for ways to improve our typing experience, whether that's with a higher WPM or a more comfortable keyboard. There's actually a lot of people who aren't in tech communities, whether it's the keyboard community or otherwise, who just don't touch type. I don't think that's a good thing, but it's just a fact that even with the increasing relevance of typing in our world, there are a ton of jobs that just don't require that skill. Farming, car repair and maintenance, infrastructure work, construction, electricians, plumbers, etc.

In short, yes, I agree that touch typing is a good, valuable skill, but even with that we have to put aside the bias of being in tech communities, and remember that there are still a ton of people for whom touch typing is not necessary.

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5518 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 12:23:05 »
When I was a kid, touch typing was taught as a required junior high class in my middle school. There was no assumption that every single student who took the class would need it later in life. It was, however, assumed that chances were good enough to teach it anyway. But since we have an entire generation that only types with its thumbs, and can do so faster than I can touch type (~80wpm), I'm not sure if touch typing will ever be seen as a valuable skill by educators of the future.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5519 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 13:29:04 »
If you can't 125wpm,  that means you haven't used the internet enough.  Internet more and it'll come naturally.


Offline keguira

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5520 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 13:51:05 »
If you can't 125wpm,  that means you haven't used the internet enough.  Internet more and it'll come naturally.
i'm 38 yo, i'm a backend developer, I'm on internet at least every minutes of a day, i write documents and email all day long ... 55 WPM.
I won't blame ISO-FR keyboard, i'm just lazy and i think you are wrong. All layouts are not good and not all languages are made for keyboard (or layout are not made really well).

And, an other unpopular opinion, i don't give a f*** about my WPM because it's not related to efficiency in work or social things.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5521 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 13:53:20 »
And, an other unpopular opinion, i don't give a f*** about my WPM because it's not related to efficiency in work or social things.


Incorrect, I type out this pointless response 2.5x faster than you, I can waste my time more efficiently than you can.

This carries through in all other input related activity.


Offline keguira

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5522 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 16:07:40 »

Incorrect, I type out this pointless response 2.5x faster than you, I can waste my time more efficiently than you can.

This carries through in all other input related activity.


 ;D

well yes, but i'm comparing it with all other things we do in life.
In the end, it's seems that for most use-cases, it's like driving your car at 55 miles per hour instead of 10 miles per hour for a 1 mile trip : it's not that much important (well... less dangerous than that). I hardly write something that is more than 200 words at a time. So, ok, it can take me 4 minutes and you less than 2 but .... who cares ?
That's not part of my job or my daily life to type that fast. And that's my point : not all people cares about that. It's great, it's practical, but it's not a "must have" in life. Just like all skills.
« Last Edit: Wed, 14 April 2021, 03:46:30 by keguira »

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5523 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 17:03:26 »

I type out this pointless response 2.5x faster than you,


And using 40% of the brain cycles as well.
"We must adjust to changing times and still hold to unchanging principles." – The bold and brilliant dream which excited the founders of this Nation still awaits its consummation. Ours was the first society openly to define itself in terms of both spirituality and of human liberty. It is that unique self–definition which has given us an exceptional appeal, but it also imposes on us a special obligation: to take on those moral duties which, when assumed, seem invariably to be in our own best interests.
The American dream endures. We must once again have full faith in our country – and in one another. I believe America can be better. We can be even stronger than before. Let our recent mistakes bring a resurgent commitment to the basic principles of our Nation, for we know that if we despise our own government we have no future. We recall in special times when we have stood briefly, but magnificently, united. In those times no prize was beyond our grasp.
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Offline Arch4Life

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5524 on: Sat, 17 April 2021, 07:13:00 »
when people are going insane about the flex thing, I think integrated plate mount is the best mount for a keyboard, I enjoy the stiffness of it, really enjoy it lol

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Offline hvontres

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5525 on: Sat, 17 April 2021, 13:54:45 »
Unless you are just copying someone else's text, raw WPM is meaningless. As long as your fingers are slightly faster than your brain, you are good. In most endeavors (creative writing, reports, coding) you can't type them in any faster than you can think them up in the first place.

That being said, I originally learned to touch-type back in the mid-80's on some electric QWERTZ typewriters (this was when I still lived in Germany). And at home, I got to practice on a Mechanical Typwriter. Until you have used one of those, you do not appreciate the pinky fingers of steel secretaries must have had back before electric typewriters. I wonder if that is part of what gave Dvorak a slight edge back in the day. I mean putting some of the most used letters on the weakest finger is kind of a cruel trick.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5526 on: Sat, 17 April 2021, 17:57:00 »

you do not appreciate the pinky fingers of steel secretaries must have had back before non -electric typewriters


Fixed that for you.

When I was in high school in the late-1960s I told my father that I wanted to take shop class for my elective. He made me take typing, since I already knew how to use carpentry tools. And this was even before computers were even on the horizon for conventional civilians.

We had to spend the first semester on manual typewriters before the lucky few of us got to move up to the rare and breathtaking new IBM Selectric.

"We must adjust to changing times and still hold to unchanging principles." – The bold and brilliant dream which excited the founders of this Nation still awaits its consummation. Ours was the first society openly to define itself in terms of both spirituality and of human liberty. It is that unique self–definition which has given us an exceptional appeal, but it also imposes on us a special obligation: to take on those moral duties which, when assumed, seem invariably to be in our own best interests.
The American dream endures. We must once again have full faith in our country – and in one another. I believe America can be better. We can be even stronger than before. Let our recent mistakes bring a resurgent commitment to the basic principles of our Nation, for we know that if we despise our own government we have no future. We recall in special times when we have stood briefly, but magnificently, united. In those times no prize was beyond our grasp.
But we cannot dwell upon remembered glory. We cannot afford to drift. Our Government must at the same time be both competent and compassionate. Our Nation can be strong abroad only if it is strong at home. And we know that the best way to enhance freedom in other lands is to demonstrate here that our democratic system is worthy of emulation. To be true to ourselves, we must be true to others. We must not behave in foreign places so as to violate our rules and standards here at home, for we know that the trust which our Nation earns is essential to our strength. 
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5527 on: Sat, 17 April 2021, 21:43:05 »
If you can't 125wpm,  that means you haven't used the internet enough.  Internet more and it'll come naturally.
I can't type 125 words per minute. I guess I need to use the internet more.

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5528 on: Sun, 18 April 2021, 10:48:50 »
Unless you are just copying someone else's text, raw WPM is meaningless. As long as your fingers are slightly faster than your brain, you are good. In most endeavors (creative writing, reports, coding) you can't type them in any faster than you can think them up in the first place.
Agreed, I have no idea why people think that WPM is important.
The main thing is that if you can touch type, then the act of typing is not a constant drag on your thinking as you try to express yourself.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5529 on: Sun, 18 April 2021, 12:07:52 »
Unless you are just copying someone else's text, raw WPM is meaningless. As long as your fingers are slightly faster than your brain, you are good. In most endeavors (creative writing, reports, coding) you can't type them in any faster than you can think them up in the first place.
Agreed, I have no idea why people think that WPM is important.
The main thing is that if you can touch type, then the act of typing is not a constant drag on your thinking as you try to express yourself.

There is a clipping point and that is 125wpm. This is as fast as you can go WITHOUT actively suppressing comprehension. It is the most intimate connection rate between your thoughts and your intended motion.

Everything computer side is enhanced by this training.

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5530 on: Thu, 22 April 2021, 16:06:54 »
Custom keyboards are overrated and a waste of money.


Offline ideus

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5531 on: Thu, 22 April 2021, 16:38:29 »
I don't mind the shiny on the alphas but hate the shiny on other larger keys, the spacebar is the worst.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5532 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 08:11:22 »
I don't mind the shiny on the alphas but hate the shiny on other larger keys, the spacebar is the worst.

I love a nicely shined spacebar.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5533 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 09:58:42 »
I don't mind the shiny on the alphas but hate the shiny on other larger keys, the spacebar is the worst.

Just take it out and buff the whole bar

Offline N8N

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5534 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 10:00:03 »
Man, if you guys like shiny keys, I got a set of Cherry doubleshots for one of ya LOL
Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry Corp. doubleshot keys - Leopold Tenkeyless Tactile Force with Wyse doubleshots - Silicon Graphics 9500900 - WASD V1 - IBM Model M 52G9658 - Noppoo Choc Pro with Cherry lasered PBT keycaps - Wyse 900866-01 - Cherry G80-8200LPBUS/07 - Dell AT101W - several Cherry G81s (future doubleshot donors) (order of current preference) (dang I have too many keyboards, I really only need two)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5535 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 10:22:47 »
Man, if you guys like shiny keys, I got a set of Cherry doubleshots for one of ya LOL

I don't understand people who mind their caps being shiny. I think it adds character, and I actually like the feel. I also leave my 80s boards mustard yellow if they happen to have yellowed that much.

Offline Volny

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5536 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 11:08:42 »
-anything smaller than TKL is hipster nonsense.

There are probably too many switches on the market.

-wpm is overrated and a narrow way to look at productivity. Many of the best methods for working fast and being productive involve not typing more keys, but typing fewer: for example macros, automation, advanced clipboard managers, or mapping commonly used keys (eg. Enter, esc, del, home, end, win, f5, etc.) to a multi-button mouse.

-no matter how pretty it is, if an artisan doesn't feel nice to press, it's a poorly designed artisan.

Offline quasistellar

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5537 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 11:19:31 »
I just use doubleshot ABS SA caps.  They come pre-shined and the legends won't wear, so they'll look the same forever :)

Offline foxieze

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5538 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 11:20:59 »
I will now forever hate this forum.  :confused:

Offline alertArchitect

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5539 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 11:23:33 »
I don't understand people who mind their caps being shiny. I think it adds character, and I actually like the feel. I also leave my 80s boards mustard yellow if they happen to have yellowed that much.

Agree with most of this! Worn in caps are like shoes you've just gotten broken in, imo. Out of the uncomfortable phase where they all feel a little odd, but not so gone you have to replace them yet.

Only disagreement is with leaving older plastics yellowed. I can't stand to leave them like that, myself, but it all comes down to that magical word of "preference" in the end.

Offline pmdbt

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5540 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 11:42:31 »
Quote
-anything smaller than TKL is hipster nonsense.

I can see why a lot of people would think that, but honestly, for some software engineers, the smaller form factor makes a lot of sense. I personally use Neovim to write the vast majority of code. Neovim like some other older editors/IDEs rely a lot on navigating with your keyboard instead of a mouse. As such, you get used to navigating using h, j, k, l, etc, and other keys. This allows you to ditch arrow keys because it's actually more comfortable to keep your hands on the home row instead of moving it off to the side to use the arrow keys and other keys like page up and page down etc.

Once you get used to this, you start realizing that it's actually more comfortable to move your hand away from the home row as infrequently as possible, so people start going down to even smaller sizes like the 40% form factor. The goal is to do everything via your keyboard and ideally use the mouse as infrequently as possible.

I didn't understand this until when I first learned how to code. I was using an Apple wireless keyboard with a mouse and I would use the mouse for a lot of functions like highlighting lines of code etc. I would spend like 8 hours a day writing and reading code and after a few weeks of this, my wrist started hurting really badly.

Once I learned how to use vim controls properly, I started going down in form factor and my wrist pain went away. So, there are definitely practical reasons for liking smaller form factors.
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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5541 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 12:13:01 »
-anything smaller than TKL is hipster nonsense.

Agreed

There are probably too many switches on the market.

Agreed, but only because of how similar the majority of them are.

I just use doubleshot ABS SA caps.  They come pre-shined and the legends won't wear, so they'll look the same forever :)

I should really get some ABS caps that are shiny straight from the factory like that. The stock caps on old Unitek K151Ls are pretty shiny.

I will now forever hate this forum.  :confused:

Why's that?

Quote
-anything smaller than TKL is hipster nonsense.

I can see why a lot of people would think that, but honestly, for some software engineers, the smaller form factor makes a lot of sense. I personally use Neovim to write the vast majority of code. Neovim like some other older editors/IDEs rely a lot on navigating with your keyboard instead of a mouse. As such, you get used to navigating using h, j, k, l, etc, and other keys. This allows you to ditch arrow keys because it's actually more comfortable to keep your hands on the home row instead of moving it off to the side to use the arrow keys and other keys like page up and page down etc.

Once you get used to this, you start realizing that it's actually more comfortable to move your hand away from the home row as infrequently as possible, so people start going down to even smaller sizes like the 40% form factor. The goal is to do everything via your keyboard and ideally use the mouse as infrequently as possible.

I didn't understand this until when I first learned how to code. I was using an Apple wireless keyboard with a mouse and I would use the mouse for a lot of functions like highlighting lines of code etc. I would spend like 8 hours a day writing and reading code and after a few weeks of this, my wrist started hurting really badly.

Once I learned how to use vim controls properly, I started going down in form factor and my wrist pain went away. So, there are definitely practical reasons for liking smaller form factors.

That's a very limited use case, not that it is in any way invalid. I don't think it justifies the overall demand for tiny keyboards. The only use cases I have ever been able to think of where that made sense is specific programming scenarios, writers, and casual computer users who have no need for many hotkeys. I also use a mouse and keyboard all day every day. I used to even spend all day copying and pasting things for product pages in a website's content management system. I've never had any problems with wrist pain using random full-size keyboards. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Do most people need keyboards with dedicated arrow keys, number pads, etc? No, not really. But there aren't a whole lot of reasons to not have them either given the flexibility lost as the result of removing them all.

Offline alertArchitect

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5542 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 16:02:46 »
That's a very limited use case, not that it is in any way invalid. I don't think it justifies the overall demand for tiny keyboards. The only use cases I have ever been able to think of where that made sense is specific programming scenarios, writers, and casual computer users who have no need for many hotkeys. I also use a mouse and keyboard all day every day. I used to even spend all day copying and pasting things for product pages in a website's content management system. I've never had any problems with wrist pain using random full-size keyboards. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Do most people need keyboards with dedicated arrow keys, number pads, etc? No, not really. But there aren't a whole lot of reasons to not have them either given the flexibility lost as the result of removing them all.

Yeah, it's niche, but that's kinda the point, isn't it? We're here to nerd out over keyboards, and if people want to type on a board with only 2 buttons and put every letter in via binary, that's their thing.

I could never live with anything smaller than a 60%, though, personally.

Offline Volny

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5543 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 21:11:23 »
Quote
-anything smaller than TKL is hipster nonsense.

I can see why a lot of people would think that, but honestly, for some software engineers, the smaller form factor makes a lot of sense.........................

Needless to say, you make valid points. Jumping around from mouse to arrow keys to nav cluster to alphas isn't as efficient as learning to do everything near the home row as you have. But I'd argue that you'd be even more productive with a bigger keyboard, especially since you could remap the arrow keys, nav cluster, etc. to shortcuts and macros.

I'm a programmer too, and it annoyed me that frequently-pressed characters like &"%${}() are dotted around haphazardly around the board, most requiring +shift. So I moved all my F keys to the numpad, and now I have all those characters neatly arranged in single-shot keys (ie. no +shift required) just above the number row:



Similarly, I think the standard layout of the 4 basic math operators is madness: + and - next to each other with one requiring a shift but not the other, * over to the left requiring shift, and / orphaned far below nowhere near the numbers. You've no doubt learnt to use them quickly, but I'm sure you'll agree it's not exactly an ideal layout, and obviously wasn't conceived with heavy math usage in mind. Since I no longer have F keys up top, I've replaced  F9 and F10 with / and *, so I now have a lovely little square cluster for /*-+. And I no longer need to press shift for +, as I've moved = to its own key in the F11 slot. In the F12 slot is a little macro I built that converts any selected string with a mathemetically calculated answer (ie. If I select 1.2*3/(4.5-6.7) it will convert it to -1.636).  (yes, my current keycap mixture is a stylistic mess! - I'm working on it :D )


 

I have other keys that bring up popup menus of frequently used phrases or glyphs. And another that can be pressed in conjunction with { to wrap a selection with curly brackets {xxxx} , in conjunction with $ to wrap it with Str$(xxxx) (to convert a value into a string), or with Q to wrap Quote tags in a forum. None of these shortcuts require a bigger keyboard per se, but the more keys you have at your disposal, the easier it is to add them to your workflow, and the more likely that you'll be able to do so without over-reliance on convoluted and hard-to-remember modifier/layer combinations.

Multitasking can also be made easier if you have keys to spare. I have a devoted arrow-like cluster on my macropad just for window navigation. The left/right keys move the current window to adjacent monitors, the up/down keys maximise /minimise, while the northwest key centres (and shrinks) the current window, while the northeast key stretches it top-to-bottom. If I hold CTRL, these keys turn into docking keys, snapping the current window to the left/right/top/bottom half of the screen, or in the case of the northeast and northwest keys, to the top-left or top-right corners. All of this can be achieved with regular hotkeys of course, but not as quickly and intuitively as with a dedicated arrow-like cluster like this:



Below that, I have another dedicated cluster that utilises a slightly altered version of alt-tabbing. The southwest key activates the persistent version of alt-tab (alt-ctrl-tab) on press and spacebar on release. What this means is while I hold it down, I can use the arrow keys to move left/right through the paneled windows (no need to switch between tab and shift-tab which is much slower). I can press the north key (mapped to delete) to close the currently selected window. When I release, spacebar brings to focus the currently selected window (required for the alt-ctrl-tab variant, which doesn't normally do anything on release as it's persistent).



While I think the functionality above would be useful for a great many users, the point is not to convince people of my own preferred macros and UX hacks, but to encourage people to implement their own, suited to their own particular workflow and needs. The standard ANSI/ISO layouts have a great many inherent usability flaws, and every compact or alternative layout I've seen inherits those flaws and/or adds new limitations. Same with Windows OS shortcuts (case in point above: moving/docking/maximising/minimising/stretching windows are all functionally similar yet use wildly different hotkey combinations that are cumbersome to combine). So when I personally look at a a 60% or whatever layout, yes, I see the compactness, elegance, and ergonomics, but most of all I see stripped potential and an enforcement to do many things the hard way.

But I'm not normal, so maybe it's just me  ;)
« Last Edit: Fri, 23 April 2021, 21:22:40 by Volny »

Offline MIGHTY CHICKEN

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5544 on: Fri, 23 April 2021, 23:39:44 »
Quote
But I'm not normal, so maybe it's just me  ;)

Your setup is quite abnormal, to say the least, but whatever floats your boat. I couldn't imagine using your f row setup, but the nav and arrow cluster looks pretty good actually.

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5545 on: Sat, 24 April 2021, 00:33:05 »
Similarly, I think the standard layout of the 4 basic math operators is madness: + and - next to each other with one requiring a shift but not the other, * over to the left requiring shift, and / orphaned far below nowhere near the numbers. You've no doubt learnt to use them quickly, but I'm sure you'll agree it's not exactly an ideal layout, and obviously wasn't conceived with heavy math usage in mind. Since I no longer have F keys up top, I've replaced  F9 and F10 with / and *, so I now have a lovely little square cluster for /*-+. And I no longer need to press shift for +, as I've moved = to its own key in the F11 slot. In the F12 slot is a little macro I built that converts any selected string with a mathemetically calculated answer (ie. If I select 1.2*3/(4.5-6.7) it will convert it to -1.636).  (yes, my current keycap mixture is a stylistic mess! - I'm working on it :D )

This is a great idea. In modern context, the location of arithmetic operators is bloody terrible. We've just adapted to it, but when I stopped to think about it, the idea of clustering them together (if you don't have a numpad) makes so much sense.

Offline Volny

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5546 on: Sat, 24 April 2021, 01:14:08 »
This is a great idea. In modern context, the location of arithmetic operators is bloody terrible. We've just adapted to it, but when I stopped to think about it, the idea of clustering them together (if you don't have a numpad) makes so much sense.

For a long time it was an annoyance I was only vaguely conscious of, but once I started thinking more about keyboard customisation, the arithmetic operators immediately jumped out as a problem worth solving. The numpad solves it already, of course, but presents its own problems, for programmers especially: the numbers and -/*+ are together, but are nowhere near other characters which must often be used at the same time, like ()[]{}%"$, not to mention alphas, which are also frequently used alongside numbers when programming. Typing something as trivial as if "var" != (1+2)/3 using the numpad requires doing practically two laps of the entire keyboard  :D Even Excel (which on the surface seems perfectly suited to the numpad) suffers, since you're very likely to be swapping between numbers and ( ) $ =, not to mention TAB.
« Last Edit: Sat, 24 April 2021, 01:22:34 by Volny »

Offline headphone_jack

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5547 on: Sat, 24 April 2021, 22:13:27 »
Similarly, I think the standard layout of the 4 basic math operators is madness: + and - next to each other with one requiring a shift but not the other, * over to the left requiring shift, and / orphaned far below nowhere near the numbers. You've no doubt learnt to use them quickly, but I'm sure you'll agree it's not exactly an ideal layout, and obviously wasn't conceived with heavy math usage in mind. Since I no longer have F keys up top, I've replaced  F9 and F10 with / and *, so I now have a lovely little square cluster for /*-+. And I no longer need to press shift for +, as I've moved = to its own key in the F11 slot. In the F12 slot is a little macro I built that converts any selected string with a mathemetically calculated answer (ie. If I select 1.2*3/(4.5-6.7) it will convert it to -1.636).  (yes, my current keycap mixture is a stylistic mess! - I'm working on it :D )

This is a great idea. In modern context, the location of arithmetic operators is bloody terrible. We've just adapted to it, but when I stopped to think about it, the idea of clustering them together (if you don't have a numpad) makes so much sense.

I've been programming every board I convert with a special numpad layout to solve exactly this issue. Rather than have numlock toggle a nav cluster, I assign it to a toggle layer key that outputs common mathematical modifiers (XYZ, ^, (), etc). While this obviously doesn't work with anything less than a fullsize, and still requires the use of layers, it is a staggering improvement to using shift with numrow keys to output some of these characters. It probably wouldn't be too hard to implement something like this into a smaller form factor as well, although having a 2 layer numpad would be even less convenient.

Offline azzipa

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5548 on: Sun, 25 April 2021, 23:36:16 »
@volny i think this is the first justification for f-row that i can support. i really like how you've reimagined the keyboard to meet your needs. i'll likely be making some adjustments after a little more thinking. nice work, and thanks!

Offline N8N

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5549 on: Mon, 26 April 2021, 00:09:36 »
@volny i think this is the first justification for f-row that i can support. i really like how you've reimagined the keyboard to meet your needs. i'll likely be making some adjustments after a little more thinking. nice work, and thanks!
Obviously you don't use AutoCAD!  I'm constantly using F3, F8, F9.

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Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry Corp. doubleshot keys - Leopold Tenkeyless Tactile Force with Wyse doubleshots - Silicon Graphics 9500900 - WASD V1 - IBM Model M 52G9658 - Noppoo Choc Pro with Cherry lasered PBT keycaps - Wyse 900866-01 - Cherry G80-8200LPBUS/07 - Dell AT101W - several Cherry G81s (future doubleshot donors) (order of current preference) (dang I have too many keyboards, I really only need two)