Author Topic: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.  (Read 1250293 times)

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Offline daerid

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2450 on: Tue, 18 June 2013, 13:47:53 »
Once again, I'm sorry if this has been done to death, but I was wondering if anybody knew of some rubber feet that would fit the ErgoDox fasteners. Right now this thing is sliding all around my desk

Offline Jagriff

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2451 on: Tue, 18 June 2013, 14:42:57 »
:O left over from the Groupbuy? where can I get those?

Leftovers here

 http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44841.0

Offline domoaligato

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2452 on: Tue, 18 June 2013, 16:06:40 »
[GB] DSA Dolch ISO + Expansions/RGBY/Blank Sets
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912

Offline damorgue

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2453 on: Tue, 18 June 2013, 16:22:36 »
[GB] DSA Dolch ISO + Expansions/RGBY/Blank Sets
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912

Those are a different material, different colour, and the ergodox doesn't use any ISO keys, does it?

Offline domoaligato

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2454 on: Tue, 18 June 2013, 17:49:36 »
[GB] DSA Dolch ISO + Expansions/RGBY/Blank Sets
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912

Those are a different material, different colour, and the ergodox doesn't use any ISO keys, does it?

That groupbuy is for more then ISO kits.
please look at the blank kits
If you buy a tenkeyless base kit plus a ergodox addon you will have a complete kit for a ergodox for hopefully every layout.

Offline BlueByLiquid

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2455 on: Tue, 18 June 2013, 19:31:04 »
I just done with my install and the right hand side with the teensy, all the keys work fine. On the left hand side none of them do. I did some basic testing for continuity and when I press down a key on the left it does connect to pins on the teensy so now I am really confused. I noiced some others had issues on the MD forums not having one hand working but they didn't say what fixed it. Anyone got any suggestions?

Thanks

Offline shad

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2456 on: Tue, 18 June 2013, 22:01:10 »
@BlueByLiquid: a few reason for your left side not functioning come to my mind:
- you powered the teensy directly through the USB, and did not powered the board correctly (by soldering and connecting the USB port to it)
- you soldered the diode on the left board on the wrong direction. It happened to me. They must be on the opposite direction of the right board. I can create a short on the diode and press the key to check if this is the case (if the key registers, then it's probably a diode issue).
- you forgot to solder the jumper on the side of the jack connector

You may also want to read ic07 and bisl posts on page 81 when they helped me troubleshooting the exact same issue.

Regards,
Shad

Offline domoaligato

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2457 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 15:46:22 »
so this is what kit 6 - ergodox complete kit looks like in the dolch blanks groupbuy
it has been changed to a complete kit!
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0


Offline linziyi

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2458 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 15:56:10 »
so this is what kit 6 - ergodox complete kit looks like in the dolch blanks groupbuy
it has been changed to a complete kit!
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0

Show Image


I am in if enough people join the group buy! <--- looking at the lowest price tag
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Offline domoaligato

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2459 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 16:04:29 »
if everyone waits for others to join then the prices will never get lower.

Offline Lawngahnome

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2460 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 16:45:34 »
First off, this is super cool. I love diy electronics, and a full blown diy mechanical keyboard is sweet.

Here's an off the wall idea I had:

What do you guys think it would take to make this puppy light up? From what I know about backlit keyboards, the light is created from an led strip or other similar device along the edge. If keys light up, it's because they have clear centers. This is speculation based on some threads I read about replacing the leds of a backlit keyboard. I have never disassembled one in person.

I've messed with custom led stuff before, and the key is to diffuse the light. If you shinned an LED onto the edge of this guy, since the whole thing is clear acrylic, you could potential make the entire keyboard glow (assuming it diffused some of the light off imperfections in the material). You could also just be putting the light straight through it, so only the far edge glows. I don't know, because I don't have one.

Any thoughts?

Offline ic07

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2461 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 17:19:03 »
First off, this is super cool. I love diy electronics, and a full blown diy mechanical keyboard is sweet.

:) Welcome to Geekhack!

Here's an off the wall idea I had:

What do you guys think it would take to make this puppy light up? From what I know about backlit keyboards, the light is created from an led strip or other similar device along the edge. If keys light up, it's because they have clear centers. This is speculation based on some threads I read about replacing the leds of a backlit keyboard. I have never disassembled one in person.

I've messed with custom led stuff before, and the key is to diffuse the light. If you shinned an LED onto the edge of this guy, since the whole thing is clear acrylic, you could potential make the entire keyboard glow (assuming it diffused some of the light off imperfections in the material). You could also just be putting the light straight through it, so only the far edge glows. I don't know, because I don't have one.

Any thoughts?

I think there's room under the PCB for 3mm LEDs (I don't have my kit together yet, so I haven't tested it) if you wanted the light to shine out from under the PCB.  Alternately, I suppose you could drill out some space from wherever you wanted.  Or, with care, you might be able to put an LED under each key, and route the leads under the switch (but on top of the PCB).

You should be able to pull power from the Teensy's VCC and GND without a problem, if you just wanted the LEDs to be constantly on (or if you wanted to implement your own dimming and switching).  If you wanted them dimmable in software, things would be a little more tricky...  you'd have to either reroute one of the indicator LEDs, or use one of unused PWM capable pins, limit yourself to 20mA (IIRC) total from that pin, and make some minor (but probably tedious) modifications to the firmware.

I imagine, whatever you did, it would take a good bit of patience to make sure you were getting the effect you wanted.  Might look pretty cool though :) .  Haven't seen anyone try it yet.

Offline Lawngahnome

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2462 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 17:47:05 »
Hmm. LED's have a very narrow angle from which the actually produce light. I think drilling into the sides and placing the LED's horizontally would probably be the best way to get light in. Besides, if you could get the entire layer above the pcb to glow, it would outline each key, and that's cool.

Power is an issue, but worst case, you have to plug your keyboard into the wall to make it glow.

Honestly, my biggest fear is packaging. I know I could make it glow, I don't know if I could make it look good once I'm done. Putting the led's under the pcb would be the best place to hide them, and some small wiring. It's been implied that the pcb is raised above the bottom layer a bit. Is that true?

EDIT: Here's my best idea on how to design a backlit ErgoDox. Get my hands on a different mechanical, backlit keyboard. That will give me a few things:

1) The keys, and the switches. I could save some $$ from the cost of the ErgoDox
2) I would be able to rip something apart, and see how it's done. How does the inside of the key glow? Does the light travel all the way through the switch? Do they light above or below the pcb?

The ErgoDox pcb already has holes in it for the switches to move, and a few other round holes that I'm guessing are part of the manufacturing. Given enough light, I should get enough escaping through all those holes to get the desired effect, but it'll take some experimentation.
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 June 2013, 18:08:51 by Lawngahnome »

Offline ic07

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2463 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 18:08:21 »
Mhm.  There's the plate layer (sandwiched between the switches and the PCB) then a 3/16" spacer layer between that and the bottom layer (to allow room for the through hole solder joints).  The PCB looks to be about 1/16", so there should be a little room in there.

Offline SubGothius

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2464 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 19:53:53 »
I am in if enough people join the group buy! <--- looking at the lowest price tag
if everyone waits for others to join then the prices will never get lower.
You can click "Commit to join at $199" if you will only buy at that price point; this helps push the buy-in volume towards that point, but you will not be obligated to buy if that goal isn't reached.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut

Offline BlueByLiquid

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2465 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 20:42:15 »
@BlueByLiquid: a few reason for your left side not functioning come to my mind:
- you powered the teensy directly through the USB, and did not powered the board correctly (by soldering and connecting the USB port to it)
- you soldered the diode on the left board on the wrong direction. It happened to me. They must be on the opposite direction of the right board. I can create a short on the diode and press the key to check if this is the case (if the key registers, then it's probably a diode issue).
- you forgot to solder the jumper on the side of the jack connector

You may also want to read ic07 and bisl posts on page 81 when they helped me troubleshooting the exact same issue.

Regards,
Shad

F**** it was the diodes. Thanks for pointing me back at this. I knew I was going to mess this up. I know what the MD site said about it being near the square pin but since I was doing the SMB's both pins were square so I thought I looked at WhiteFireDragon's video and I could swear he put them the same way on both sides(obviously not).

Speaking of that anyone know how WhiteFireDragon used a heat gun to melt the solder paste? I tried that and I have a low flow heat gun but it still moved the little SMBs all over the place. I just use the iron and it worked fine.

Offline lkong

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2466 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 21:42:33 »
@BlueByLiquid: a few reason for your left side not functioning come to my mind:
- you powered the teensy directly through the USB, and did not powered the board correctly (by soldering and connecting the USB port to it)
- you soldered the diode on the left board on the wrong direction. It happened to me. They must be on the opposite direction of the right board. I can create a short on the diode and press the key to check if this is the case (if the key registers, then it's probably a diode issue).
- you forgot to solder the jumper on the side of the jack connector

You may also want to read ic07 and bisl posts on page 81 when they helped me troubleshooting the exact same issue.

Regards,
Shad

F**** it was the diodes. Thanks for pointing me back at this. I knew I was going to mess this up. I know what the MD site said about it being near the square pin but since I was doing the SMB's both pins were square so I thought I looked at WhiteFireDragon's video and I could swear he put them the same way on both sides(obviously not).

Speaking of that anyone know how WhiteFireDragon used a heat gun to melt the solder paste? I tried that and I have a low flow heat gun but it still moved the little SMBs all over the place. I just use the iron and it worked fine.

For the smd reflow, think about oven.

Offline domoaligato

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2467 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 22:18:04 »
@BlueByLiquid: a few reason for your left side not functioning come to my mind:
- you powered the teensy directly through the USB, and did not powered the board correctly (by soldering and connecting the USB port to it)
- you soldered the diode on the left board on the wrong direction. It happened to me. They must be on the opposite direction of the right board. I can create a short on the diode and press the key to check if this is the case (if the key registers, then it's probably a diode issue).
- you forgot to solder the jumper on the side of the jack connector

You may also want to read ic07 and bisl posts on page 81 when they helped me troubleshooting the exact same issue.

Regards,
Shad

F**** it was the diodes. Thanks for pointing me back at this. I knew I was going to mess this up. I know what the MD site said about it being near the square pin but since I was doing the SMB's both pins were square so I thought I looked at WhiteFireDragon's video and I could swear he put them the same way on both sides(obviously not).

Speaking of that anyone know how WhiteFireDragon used a heat gun to melt the solder paste? I tried that and I have a low flow heat gun but it still moved the little SMBs all over the place. I just use the iron and it worked fine.

he has a really nice expensive hot air station.

edit: check out this other thread on soldering. they discuss hot air and all kinds of cool stuff in it....
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42824.0
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 June 2013, 22:21:19 by domoaligato »

Offline BlueByLiquid

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2468 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 22:39:50 »

For the smd reflow, think about oven.

I have heard several friends mention using toaster ovens. I actually found that the soldering iron worked fine and I should have just used it first because it was quite quick to just go straight down each side then flip it over and do the next side.

Offline BlueByLiquid

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2469 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 22:44:31 »

he has a really nice expensive hot air station.

edit: check out this other thread on soldering. they discuss hot air and all kinds of cool stuff in it....
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42824.0
[/quote]

Thanks!

Offline BlueByLiquid

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2470 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 22:51:06 »
Thought I would put up a review. I use the Kinesis contoured at work and at home and many other keyboards but the Kinesis ones are 80% of my work.

For my version I have
- MX Blues
- DCS Keycaps
- I bought the spherical home row keycaps from one of the group buys on GH recently
- Full hand version.

COMMENTS:
- First: I REALLY like this set and my comments below while they might be negative don't change the fact that I really like it.

- MD instructions are not the best and I think they could really improve. I think now that I have it built I could easily build it in 2-2 1/2 hours but it took much longer as I constantly rewound WhiteFireDragon's video because I didn't understand something on MD site or I couldn't see it very well. Thank goodness for the high res video.

- MD has been great throughout the process with the parts that are problematic.

CASE:
- The acrylic manufacture must be pretty poor. When I got mine they were burned and several pieces of plastic had huge chips/deformations. I got a second set after sending MD the pictures and this set the holes were too small on a few of the layers for the screws to go through.

- Both my original and replacement have scraps on them. I think I will order top pieces in a solid color as I really don't like the look with all the scratches on the acrylic.

- I knew this ahead of time but I don't really like the block-y look of the hand shape. This is personal preference though. I think when I make new ones I will do something different.

- You need to get some rubber feet or you will scratch your desk up with the bolts sticking through.

- Good hand shape but the thumbs are just wrong (This isn't because they are too low. I will explain more in the layout section).

KEYCAPS (I bought both the DSA and DCS keycaps but only looked at the DCS ones)
- I haven't bought good keycaps before so I don't know the normal quality. These seem fine but they have a few plastic edges and areas where the paint/dye doesn't seem perfectly smooth. When it’s together you can't tell at all so it really doesn't matter.

- These area a PAIN to put together. I really didn’t think this would be tough but I spent about 2 hours getting them together. Also you really need a keycap puller. I used another tool that looks similar but it would often pull up the top of the switch. These keycaps are TIGHT and require considerable force to push on.

- They are very SOLID

SWITCHES:
- They are MX Blue switches (without built in diodes) so nothing different from standard ones. Well other than the fact that they were pretty cheap.

BOARD:
- The board build quality is decent but nothing to write home about.
- Blue color is nice and looks good.
- I personally don't like the giant "ERGODOX" logo but that is opinion. Also it is only half visible so it looks kind of tacky to me but again personal opinion.

LAYOUT:
- Hmmm. Well it is great and really bad at the same time. :)

- MAIN SECTION (GREAT): The keys are well layered out in the main section where the home row is. Keys fit pretty tightly but plenty of room to slightly move around. Good feel I think for big or small hands. You have to move much more than a Kinesis but that is to be expected.

- THUMB AREA (BAD BAD!): The thumb area is simply too close to the top. I have very large hands and it is a serious strain to reach these keys. They need to be moved down and they should probably be raised up. I have a VERY simple solution for this below in the suggestions. It’s great that it is open source so we can make these changes. This is so much of an ergonomic issue as you have to move your wrist to hit most of the keys and I can't risk messing up my hands as I have already had so many RSI issues and moving the wrist is my big issue.

- I really really miss the extra row of dedicated function keys. You can't really add them in this design if you want it to be ergonomic but I really really miss them. I know I miss them because I miss the Kinesis horrible squishy keys and those are bad. I may get used to it but at the very least I will need side labels to remember where they are on the second layer.

CABLES:
- This layout is BEGGING for right angle 3.5mm connectors. They stick out as is and make it a mess to worry about the wires.

- The cables get in the way more than I thought.

TOOL/PARTS FOR ASSEMBLY:

Note: this is my recommendation you can certainly do with less

1. Decent soldering iron. You really do need a decent one or this will take a while. I use the FX-888D at home but there are other great ones.
2. Solder paste: (if you are using SMD diodes). You can use solder but you will need a pointy tip to make it easily plus the paste makes it easier to hold the SMDs in place until you can heat them. By the way if you need it now Frys, MicroCenter have this in stock. Also note The HACK (Radio Hack) doesn't have it anymore.
3. 45 degree Tweezers: IF you are using the SMD or anything really small you need these anyway. Just go get them. Note they may not be called tweezers but that is all I can think of right now.
4. Keycap Puller: if you are using these keycaps they are really tight. Also you will probably put them down in the wrong spot if you are using the DCS ones and have to move them around.
5. Solder: Obviously. Get some good solder because you will be soldering a lot.
6. Wire cutter: You need one meant for cutting very close to the board to make it all fit (especially if you are using through hole diodes) and at least a decent one as you will be cutting a fair amount of wires. Not tons.
7. I'm probably not thinking of something

TIPS:
- When using SMDs: put your solderpaste on the pin and then move towards the through hole diode pin so that you don't get the paste under the smd. This will make it much quicker as you can be less precise. When I resoldered one had it took almost no time using this method.

- Use a soldering near the paste to harden it not a heat gun. I know WhiteFireDragon use some sort of heat gun but even my low flow one would move these extremely light parts. You could probably use the toaster oven reflow method if you did this first.

- Use purel or some hand sanitizer to clear your hand plates. Mine came and they were very dirty (I don't know how as they were covered in paper but they were). This will clean them up and should evaporate fast enough to leave no moisture even if you don't get them 120% dry.

CONCLUSIONS:
- IT is a great design. It needs some fixing I think to make it truly ergonomic.
- I really really like it.

SUGGESTIONS
1. Move the thumb section it simply requires too much wrist movement to be ergonomic. (See my recommendation below)

2. Elevate the thumb section a small amount. (Seem my recommendation below)

3. Backlighting: This set is begging to be backlit. I would really like to do this myself as I have been backlighting another keyboard that wasn't designed to be backlit. Since we have the PCB this job should be relatively easily and really just a case of board layout. If anyone is interested I have some ideas on how to drive this and some low (relatively) cost boards for handling dimming/individual addressing of leds, balancing, etc.

3.Get right angle 3.5mm cables to reduce cable clutter and management issues. (you can do this now).

THUMB KEYS MODIFICATION (PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG):
- Since this is a 2 layer simple board I think you can cut the current board into two pieces and connect them with wire. In future PCB revisions make holes for the 12 wires on either side of the area to cut. Or make two boards but that drives up the cost.

- Create a new Second layer of acrylic that is similar to the third layer currently but only for the thumbs. Then you can just have the keys raised up a small amount. You could actually repeat this until you have them as high as you want with little change to the current board.

- Provide two (or more) recommended second layer acrylic designs which allow for the user to put the keys where she/he wants them. This should not drive the cost up too much at all.

- I really thing the above solutions would require little work and am interested in feedback. It seems like the biggest complaint is the thumb section and I think you can fix it with maybe $2 in wire and $15-20 in new acrylic for the new second layer. In fact I would imagine someone could easily cut the current board to do this.

- I hope this was helpful and please give me feedback especially on the thumb section and backlighting modification sections.
« Last Edit: Thu, 20 June 2013, 01:30:15 by BlueByLiquid »

Offline daerid

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2471 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 23:47:36 »
Great review! I personally also have large hands and think the thumb clusters are just fine, but that's probably because I'm only using the 2x keys (which are much easier to hit than the 1x keys).

I used a Hako FX888D with the stock tip it came with for the SMDs (at 700°F). The first PCB was super slow going, but on the second one I got a good rhythm going and got all the SMDs on there in about 45min. It was super fun putting it together and I was surprised that everything worked on the first try.

And if you can find a dual right-angle TRRS 3.5mm cable anywhere, please let us know! I've been looking for almost a week now, the closest I can find is a right-angle to straight cable.

Offline Glod

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2472 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 00:23:44 »
quite a write up

The smd diodes were pretty easy to solder in with just a normal iron and solder, ive already built two of these things

i think the thumb cluster is fine... i don't think it needs any modification.

Offline Lawngahnome

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2473 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 00:26:42 »
I'm interested in the backlighting, too. I know the switches already have the space to house the led's, so I was going to take a stab at wiring the led's under the board. There are no through holes for them, so I think you could just bend the leads down the side of the switch, and under the board. The wiring will look like a rat nest, but it'll work. You're right, a simple board update could add the traces necessary to connect the LED's.

I have no idea what's a good option for actually driving the LED's. That's something I've never messed with before. What are your recommendations?

Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2474 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 00:35:16 »
- MD instructions are not the best and I think they could really improve. I think now that I have it built I could easily build it in 2-2 1/2 hours but it took much longer as I constantly rewound WhiteFireDragon's video because I didn't understand something on MD site or I couldn't see it very well. Thank goodness for the high res video.

BlueByLiquid, nice detailed writeup on your building experiences. I fully agree that the building instructions on MassDrop are lacking a bit. If you have experiences with electronics, then it's not too bad, but it's not very newb-friendly. Some steps are even omitted. They actually do have their own video, but the whole process was sped through in less than 1 minute of just snapshots from far away. It doesn't help at all for assembly.


Quote
CASE:
- The acrylic manufacture must be pretty poor. When I got mine they were burned and several pieces of plastic had huge chips/deformations. I got a second set after sending MD the pictures and this set the holes were too small on a few of the layers for the screws to go through.

The case for the one I built also came with these defects. It had burn marks and was slightly melted in that area. One of the holes in one layer was not aligned properly, so the screw can't go through.


Quote
Speaking of that anyone know how WhiteFireDragon used a heat gun to melt the solder paste? I tried that and I have a low flow heat gun but it still moved the little SMBs all over the place. I just use the iron and it worked fine.

You can't just use any heat gun. The one I used was from a Aoyue 2702A+ rework station. It has temperature control and you can also regulate the air flow, depending which part you're soldering. If you have a heatgun that does not have these two options, or temps/air flow is not in the range for electronics, then it won't be suitable for solder reflow.


PS - the diodes are SMT or SMD (surface-mounted device). No such thing is SMB  ;)

Offline ic07

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2475 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 00:59:19 »
I enjoyed the write up too.

Your opinion on the thumb cluster is interesting.  I'm with Glod and Daerid (and presumably Dox, since he did change the position of the cluster once, during early prototyping) and I like it great as is (though, it would be nice to have an extra key on the inside).  I think I remember there being a communal rant about the thumb cluster a little while ago too, but I'm sure they wanted it moved closer in, which sounds different than what you're suggesting.  It almost makes me think there was a reason behind assigning both thumbs to just the space bar on a normal keyboard, lol, since the position of the thumb cluster seems to be one of the most controversial ergonomic considerations.

About backlighting, just as an ancillary comment: if the controllers you're thinking about could be controlled via I2C that would make it convenient for anyone wanting to manipulate them in the firmware.  I've thought about how fun it'd be to have an individually addressable (RGB!) LED under each key... but I think it'd be a little past my threshold of inconvenience to actually do it, lol.

About right angle 3.5mm TRRS cables: I suppose you could make your own...  A quick web search turned up these.  Kind of expensive :/ and per the 1 review they might be kind of a pain to use... but they look like they might work...

Offline daerid

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2476 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 01:45:41 »
Amazon has right angle adapters, but that'd make the whole thing rather clunky

Offline BlueByLiquid

  • Posts: 122
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2477 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 02:20:13 »
I am currently doing another keyboard lighting project (I will hopefully be done with soon). I am using the Colorduino board. It can control 64RGB leds, or 192 single LEDs. It can be controlled over I2C over usb (which is my goal as I am having OS integration so that I can display things on the keys. It is also a fully arduino board so you can manage a lot on it alone. It manages everything for you so all you have to set in code is the rgb value or the brightness for the led.  One example I have been doing is displaying processor usage by lighting up the 0-9 keys. there are a lot of neat things you can do once you have this level of control and can interface with the computer.

Also I have a prototype RGB one. I have heard people don't think this is possible because you of RGB diodes only coming in 5mm, which is true but I made a test version that works with surface mount RGB led and it works well. You can either dremel the keys or mount them slightly at an angle on the pcb and they work great. I need to make a board as no one in their right mind would solder that many points. I am actually most exited about the rgb part as you can do so much awesome stuff when you have full color.

They have risers on the board but if those are soldered it could easily fit in the open space of the full hand version of the ergodox.

I have gotten them as lot a $11 but they are normally about $20. I reacently got mine at HobbyKing http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__26845__colorduino_v2_0_rgb_led_matrix_driver.html





Offline BlueByLiquid

  • Posts: 122
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2478 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 02:21:24 »
Amazon has right angle adapters, but that'd make the whole thing rather clunky
Well I may just make my own cable using right angle adapters that you can solder you own cable into. Anyone who could make the ergodox should be able to make their own cable.

Offline BlueByLiquid

  • Posts: 122
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2479 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 02:23:14 »
I enjoyed the write up too.

Your opinion on the thumb cluster is interesting.  I'm with Glod and Daerid (and presumably Dox, since he did change the position of the cluster once, during early prototyping) and I like it great as is (though, it would be nice to have an extra key on the inside).  I think I remember there being a communal rant about the thumb cluster a little while ago too, but I'm sure they wanted it moved closer in, which sounds different than what you're suggesting.

I may not have said it right. I think we are talking about the same thing. Basically on the full hand move the cluster toward the typer which would move it in as that part is angled.

Offline sordna

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2480 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 02:40:19 »
Nice writeu, .BlueByLiquid. The thumb clusters need to move indeed. I posted about it here,
including a gimp'ed photo to show 2 possible options for moving them:



I guess you would be in favor of option 1 (left photo) that moves the clusters toward the user as well outward, toward the hands. I was leaning toward option 2 (right photo) which however involves making the bottom inner row key a 1x1 key, moved up a bit as you can see in the photo, to make room for the thumbclusters to move outward toward the hands only (but not toward the user). Either of these options would be an ergonomic improvement.

I never heard from Dox regarding moving the thumbclusters, even though I tried to contact him. bpiphany and litster both told me they could make the necessary modifications to the pcb and case respectively, provided the community agreed... but Dox should bless it too!
« Last Edit: Thu, 20 June 2013, 02:51:16 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline BlueByLiquid

  • Posts: 122
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2481 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 02:55:44 »
Nice writeu, .BlueByLiquid. The thumb clusters need to move indeed. I posted about it here,
including a gimp'ed photo to show 2 possible options for moving them:

Show Image


I guess you would be in favor of option 1 (left photo) that moves the clusters toward the user as well outward, toward the hands. I was leaning toward option 2 (right photo) which however involves making the bottom inner row key a 1x1 key, moved up a bit as you can see in the photo, to make room for the thumbclusters to move outward toward the hands only (but not toward the user). Either of these options would be an ergonomic improvement.

I never heard from Dox regarding moving the thumbclusters, even though I tried to contact him. bpiphany and litster both told me they could make the necessary modifications to the pcb and case respectively, provided the community agreed... but Dox should bless it too!

Yes I like one but I think it might be better to make the design so it can be moved liked I mentioned. If we can keep it seperate and just add a could of new board spots we can have several different 2nd layer acrilic sheets and you pick the one you want. That way people can keep it as is or move it and just use one different layer and wire to connect the split PCB

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2248
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2482 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 03:05:09 »
If you tent the keyboard you won't feel the need to raise the thumbs as much. I keep my halves tented each at about 40° from horizontal. I also installed a Kinesis ceycap set, which has pretty tall thumb keys. But sure, adding holes in the PCB and making the traces wider to survive a cut for those who want to go that route is not a bad idea, but I don't see many people doing it. So moving the thumbclusters closer, is more realistic and achievable goal if the community can reach some consensus.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2483 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 10:03:43 »
so this is what kit 6 - ergodox complete kit looks like in the dolch blanks groupbuy
it has been changed to a complete kit!
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0

Show Image


except that's not dsa, it's dcs..

you're getting DSA, so it'll look pricklier

Offline damorgue

  • Posts: 1176
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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2484 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 10:43:34 »
- The acrylic manufacture must be pretty poor. When I got mine they were burned and several pieces of plastic had huge chips/deformations. I got a second set after sending MD the pictures and this set the holes were too small on a few of the layers for the screws to go through.

Whoa, mine also had scorch marks and I had to drill the holes a bit to make all the screws pass through. The scorch marks are however very hard to fix. I figured it would be impossible to get a a couple of new acrylic plates sent by them. It is too late now to change the middle plate as everything is soldered, but unless sandblasting the entire thing matte doesn't help, I may contact them to exchange some of the other layers. Thanks.

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2485 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 10:48:28 »
Nice writeu, .BlueByLiquid. The thumb clusters need to move indeed. I posted about it here,
including a gimp'ed photo to show 2 possible options for moving them:

Show Image


I guess you would be in favor of option 1 (left photo) that moves the clusters toward the user as well outward, toward the hands. I was leaning toward option 2 (right photo) which however involves making the bottom inner row key a 1x1 key, moved up a bit as you can see in the photo, to make room for the thumbclusters to move outward toward the hands only (but not toward the user). Either of these options would be an ergonomic improvement.

I never heard from Dox regarding moving the thumbclusters, even though I tried to contact him. bpiphany and litster both told me they could make the necessary modifications to the pcb and case respectively, provided the community agreed... but Dox should bless it too!

I agree with the idea of moving the thumb cluster.  My thoughts were to move it down one full unit, so the top of the top row is where the top of the 2 unit thumb keys are now.  If that makes sense.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline Lawngahnome

  • Posts: 25
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2486 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 13:19:11 »
I am currently doing another keyboard lighting project (I will hopefully be done with soon). I am using the Colorduino board. It can control 64RGB leds, or 192 single LEDs. It can be controlled over I2C over usb (which is my goal as I am having OS integration so that I can display things on the keys. It is also a fully arduino board so you can manage a lot on it alone. It manages everything for you so all you have to set in code is the rgb value or the brightness for the led.  One example I have been doing is displaying processor usage by lighting up the 0-9 keys. there are a lot of neat things you can do once you have this level of control and can interface with the computer.

Also I have a prototype RGB one. I have heard people don't think this is possible because you of RGB diodes only coming in 5mm, which is true but I made a test version that works with surface mount RGB led and it works well. You can either dremel the keys or mount them slightly at an angle on the pcb and they work great. I need to make a board as no one in their right mind would solder that many points. I am actually most exited about the rgb part as you can do so much awesome stuff when you have full color.

They have risers on the board but if those are soldered it could easily fit in the open space of the full hand version of the ergodox.

I have gotten them as lot a $11 but they are normally about $20. I reacently got mine at HobbyKing http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__26845__colorduino_v2_0_rgb_led_matrix_driver.html

Doing the surface mount LED's by hand is super tedious. What about bi-color leds? A red/blue tri lead led could produce red, blue, and a whole variety of purples. It's also effectively 2 leds, so a single colorduino could drive 96 of them (right?). There are 84 keys on the ErgoDox, so using bi color led's would cover them all, while 64 RGB's wouldn't. Bi's also come in 3mm packages, so it solves the surface mount issue.

This sounds like something I would like to try out. I would obviously have to solder the matrix myself. Do you know of any resources that outline how to do that? I've seen a ton of examples with already done RGB matrixes, but this isn't the same, and those are only using it, not building it.

EDIT: Not sure if all 3 pins for bi color LEDs will fit through the MX switches. The LED is a 3mm package, but the leads are wider.
« Last Edit: Thu, 20 June 2013, 13:26:48 by Lawngahnome »

Offline ic07

  • Posts: 190
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2487 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 13:52:27 »
There are 84 keys on the ErgoDox, so using bi color led's would cover them all, while 64 RGB's wouldn't.

But the ErgoDox only has 38 (or up to 40) keys per hand (so, only 76 to 80 keys total, even though there are 84 positions in a 6x14 matrix; small correction), and unless you're planning to bring half the LED matrix over with a ribbon cable or something similar, you'll need a colorduino for each hand anyway.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2488 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 14:26:55 »
Instead of using angled TRRS connectors to save space, how about instead using a single forked cable for both USB and I2C?
Then there would be one cable from each half-keyboard that would meet somewhere hidden away behind the computer screen. The left board could get its +5V and GND directly from USB, so you would need only six lines in the cable to the right keyboard. I have been thinking of making both forks identical and using 6-pin mini-DIN but there might be another connector that is nicer.

This would of course mean that you would lose the ability to just unplug the ErgoDox and plug in another keyboard on the same mini-USB cable.

Offline Glod

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2489 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 14:51:04 »
I'm wondering with all this discussion right now if there should be a new ErgoDox v2.0 thread created focused on a new design. I personally think the design is almost perfect...but the project is open source after all, jump on it.

Offline linziyi

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2490 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 14:55:22 »
Maybe a lower thumb cluster if you ask me...
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Offline Lawngahnome

  • Posts: 25
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2491 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 14:56:44 »
Yes, it would require at least 8 wires to go between the two halves. I would rather do that than have each half work independently, but I can see the advantages of both.

For anyone who's wondering, here's a schematic of the led matrix: http://tronixstuff.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/pinouts.jpg

The 8x8 rgb grid is arrange to address each anode and cathode (8 pins for the cathodes, 24 pins (8x3) for the anodes). If I changed that to say 8x12 for bicolor, it would still be 8 pins for the cathodes, and 24 pins (12x2) for the anodes. That's 48 led's per side, and (like I said before), 8 wires between each half.

Offline BlueByLiquid

  • Posts: 122
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2492 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 17:15:12 »
Doing the surface mount LED's by hand is super tedious. What about bi-color leds? A red/blue tri lead led could produce red, blue, and a whole variety of purples. It's also effectively 2 leds, so a single colorduino could drive 96 of them (right?). There are 84 keys on the ErgoDox, so using bi color led's would cover them all, while 64 RGB's wouldn't. Bi's also come in 3mm packages, so it solves the surface mount issue.

This sounds like something I would like to try out. I would obviously have to solder the matrix myself. Do you know of any resources that outline how to do that? I've seen a ton of examples with already done RGB matrixes, but this isn't the same, and those are only using it, not building it.

EDIT: Not sure if all 3 pins for bi color LEDs will fit through the MX switches. The LED is a 3mm package, but the leads are wider.

If you use surface mount or two color LEDs you need to dremel out the light sections either way. This is because Cherry MX switchs only have two holes for pins (They have the wide open area but below there are only two holes that lead out of the switch. When you dremel that piece out you can widen the hole a fair bit without causing damage to the switch (at least not that I could see).

I think it would be a bit tedious but not to bad if you use solder paste for the surface mount parts. Obviously these size RGB LEDs have close pins and you would definitely want the 4pin ones NOT the 6 pin ones because that is more soldering.

As for the number of lights yes you can do that as each channel is controlled separately. But the great thing about Colorduinos is that they can accept and forward I2C on so you can chain them to control as many colorduinos as you want you just need two or more boards. They are pretty nice.

Offline BlueByLiquid

  • Posts: 122
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2493 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 17:16:55 »
Yes, it would require at least 8 wires to go between the two halves. I would rather do that than have each half work independently, but I can see the advantages of both.

For anyone who's wondering, here's a schematic of the led matrix: http://tronixstuff.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/pinouts.jpg

The 8x8 rgb grid is arrange to address each anode and cathode (8 pins for the cathodes, 24 pins (8x3) for the anodes). If I changed that to say 8x12 for bicolor, it would still be 8 pins for the cathodes, and 24 pins (12x2) for the anodes. That's 48 led's per side, and (like I said before), 8 wires between each half.

If you use two colorduinos you can connect them via I2C so that should be less wires.
« Last Edit: Thu, 20 June 2013, 17:22:50 by BlueByLiquid »

Offline Maxrunner

  • Posts: 20
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2494 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 19:07:34 »
I'm considering buying an ergodox but i don't like full acrylic style as its on sale at massdrop. Does anyone here sell metal plates?

Offline BlueByLiquid

  • Posts: 122
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2495 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 20:44:34 »
As for the placement of the thumb keys I thought rather than say "I like it here" or "no that sucks" we could get at least a little bit scientific-ish. So I took pictures of my hand touching all the keys with my thumb and I hope more people can also do this also. I also made it into a gif using gifninja so that I didn't have to post it anywhere on my own.

I also touched 3 places where keys would be if they were 3 keys directly below the thumb keys.

The big issue for RSI that we should be looking to prevent with the keyboard is the sharp angle of the wrist when stretching but these photos are to help determine these or other issues and where the best fit is. Please do this if you can (Even if you like ergodox as it is) so we can evaluate the general positions of peoples wrists and hands. You can see where the issues are in my gif below:



Notice how for me the top top keys and the middle one on the right cause considerable bending/stretching of the wrist. I hope many of you can do the same! Thanks.
« Last Edit: Thu, 20 June 2013, 20:46:39 by BlueByLiquid »

Offline Glod

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2496 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 21:19:32 »
i don't use my thumb for those 8 keys, i use my index finger as they are assigned to things that would usually not be part of the main typing area like home/end/pageup/pagedown  why would you need to touch those with your thumb? there is nothing not ergonomic about using my index fingers to press those unless your wrists are tied down the desk

Offline BlueByLiquid

  • Posts: 122
Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2497 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 21:28:09 »
i don't use my thumb for those 8 keys, i use my index finger as they are assigned to things that would usually not be part of the main typing area like home/end/pageup/pagedown  why would you need to touch those with your thumb? there is nothing not ergonomic about using my index fingers to press those unless your wrists are tied down the desk

???
I think there is some confusion here. I am talking about the 6 keys where your thumb touches. I think there is obviously some intercommunication as you even have your thumb on them in your avatar. One of the key benfits of designs like this is that you never have to move your arm or wrists so why you certainly could move your entire have without bending it to use your index fingers it seems odd. Also I would think one would but backspace/space there which are very common keys.

Offline kurplop

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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2498 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 21:43:21 »
BlueByLiquid-  I think your thumb cluster ideas have merit. I've been working on a thumb cluster modification that echo your concerns. I'll post a drawing soon.

I think Glod was referring to the 8-1x1 caps only.

Offline OldDataHands

  • Posts: 280
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Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #2499 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 21:53:36 »
Notice how for me the top top keys and the middle one on the right cause considerable bending/stretching of the wrist. I hope many of you can do the same! Thanks.

I don't have an ErgoDox, but just looking at your pictures, It seems
that you should be rotating the keyboard clockwise by 30+ degrees
relative to your hand.  It looks like your fingers finally are lined-up
with the columns on the keyboard when you're at maximum twist
with your thumbs on the inner-most keys. 

Wouldn't that go a long ways to addressing the issue you're
concerned about? Does that work or not work for some reason?