Bernie Sanders and Economics

[tp4tissue]

Sucks that this is all zero-sum

It is not zero-sum at all.

Fortunately for Americans, those of us who shop at Wal-Mart get the cheap dish towels at the expense of 3rd world slave laborers, while the ultra-wealthy fork over no taxes to anyone on the money that they sock away in the secret hidey-holes of the never-never lands.

Maybe when Oklahoma City falls into a sinkhole or Miami disappears under the high tide people will finally start to take notice.

All of those are inevitable events..

Because people behave selfishly..  Even if a few minds can be change the majority can not.


WHICH IS why the natural progression of our economy is as it is, and why I mention the imminent also natural shifts in labor distribution..

IT MUST happen the way it has..   No amount of government plotting will bring labor back here anytime soon..


You raise the minimum wage, do it,  and see MORE labor go overseas..

[tp4tissue]

Relentlessly shipping American jobs and money offshore with impunity is what "the system" has been all about since Reagan took office.

Sucks that this is all zero-sum so we lose those jobs forever and no one will ever get jobs in new areas. I also hate when I get cheaper goods...

Personally, with a lot of stuff, I would rather pay 3 times the price (especially hand tools) if it means it is US made and a quality product.  I refuse to buy any tools from sears without extenuating circumstances.  Even hand tools that stay at home and not for work.

That is total bull**** and you know it.  If this was true, then how can John Deere pay custodians $20 an hour plus benefits, mechanics close to $26 an hour plus benefits.  That is just one company.  How can they afford to pay union contractors what they charge for my labor.  I get billed out at over $100 an hour.  If this is truly how you feel, then I feel sorry for anyone you try and do business with.  If a company is making that much money and can't afford decent wages and benefits, there are only two reasons that can account for this.  ****ty business practices, or corporate greed.

They don't pay union contractors what's on the paper, my guess, much of that is states funding or some sort of laundering scheme..

Just like Insurance payments is not what's billed on paper. it's perhaps 1/10th

If you're uncertain why some payments don't make sense, odds are, fancy book-keeping.

I think you are confused on what I actually do and who my contractors work for.  I work as a union millwright, and currently work for Weitz Industiral.  Granted Weitz is an international company with both union and non union sides of the company, but they don't mix those sides.  For example, they don't bid a job as union, then send the non union side to do the job to get more profits.  It just doesn't work that way.  4

Plus, I have only ever worked ONE job that was government money since I started working as a millwright in '07.  That one job, was flood recovery from the Flood of 2008 here in the midwest, image from the bridge in the city I was working in at that time.  So yes, when companies get a bill for my $100 per hour, that is what they pay, not the state, not the federal government.  I work inside of manufacturing facilities replacing, fixing, and installing machinery for the companies that MAKE products.  I do NOT work on bridges, roads, highways, or any other form of infrastructure, so in your infinite wisdom, where the hell does this state money come from.  The only possible source is from corporate subsidies, but the companies where I work at, pay their employees enough they don't need these.  Look at General Mills.  They don't want the union in there so they pay their employees BETTER than local union wages, including benefits.  Last I heard, couple 5 years ago, general line production workers make close to $30 an hour on the check, plus excellent benefits.  This practice I have no problem with, if a union isn't needed for workers to get good wages, working conditions, and benefits, then no issue.  But tell me how they NEED to ship jobs overseas in order to make a profit.

They NEED to ship jobs overseas to make MORE profit.

if you were the capitalist, you would do the exact same thing.

You're not fighting the people here, you're fighting OTHER capitalists. The game of which is already in play.


Your ideas about a fair world would only make sense if nothing was happening right now, and tomorrow we start making the RIGHT choices..

We can't do that any more,  the opportunity to do so does not exist.

if YOU DON'T ship jobs overseas,  SOME ONE ELSE WILL...  and unless Bernie can stop EVERYONE from doing it,   None of his good-wishes will come true..  Because the person who ships the job, will out-compete the ones who do not...

So the American loving pay everybody a great wage guy goes under..  you lose your job, then what.


He'll at best create a system that even more greatly benefit large corporations because it'd raise the barriers against smaller businesses without the money to pay for an elite accounting department.

[tp4tissue]

Melvang, i think you misunderstand my point..


I'm not against people getting a better wage..  but it is not going to work as Bernie is saying..

People will need to get a better wage through moving towards jobs that are not currently exportable, and will be in demand in the future.


It's pretty much too late for a typical laborer at this point,  HOWEVER,  the laborer's children will go to school, and study hard, and pick something which will stick..

The wage gap will take generations..  Transcending several presidencies..



This notion that you will vote for someone, and in 10 years it will suddenly be better for you...

These economic lags actually take decades...

[Melvang]

Relentlessly shipping American jobs and money offshore with impunity is what "the system" has been all about since Reagan took office.

Sucks that this is all zero-sum so we lose those jobs forever and no one will ever get jobs in new areas. I also hate when I get cheaper goods...

Personally, with a lot of stuff, I would rather pay 3 times the price (especially hand tools) if it means it is US made and a quality product.  I refuse to buy any tools from sears without extenuating circumstances.  Even hand tools that stay at home and not for work.

That is total bull**** and you know it.  If this was true, then how can John Deere pay custodians $20 an hour plus benefits, mechanics close to $26 an hour plus benefits.  That is just one company.  How can they afford to pay union contractors what they charge for my labor.  I get billed out at over $100 an hour.  If this is truly how you feel, then I feel sorry for anyone you try and do business with.  If a company is making that much money and can't afford decent wages and benefits, there are only two reasons that can account for this.  ****ty business practices, or corporate greed.

They don't pay union contractors what's on the paper, my guess, much of that is states funding or some sort of laundering scheme..

Just like Insurance payments is not what's billed on paper. it's perhaps 1/10th

If you're uncertain why some payments don't make sense, odds are, fancy book-keeping.

I think you are confused on what I actually do and who my contractors work for.  I work as a union millwright, and currently work for Weitz Industiral.  Granted Weitz is an international company with both union and non union sides of the company, but they don't mix those sides.  For example, they don't bid a job as union, then send the non union side to do the job to get more profits.  It just doesn't work that way.  4

Plus, I have only ever worked ONE job that was government money since I started working as a millwright in '07.  That one job, was flood recovery from the Flood of 2008 here in the midwest, image from the bridge in the city I was working in at that time.  So yes, when companies get a bill for my $100 per hour, that is what they pay, not the state, not the federal government.  I work inside of manufacturing facilities replacing, fixing, and installing machinery for the companies that MAKE products.  I do NOT work on bridges, roads, highways, or any other form of infrastructure, so in your infinite wisdom, where the hell does this state money come from.  The only possible source is from corporate subsidies, but the companies where I work at, pay their employees enough they don't need these.  Look at General Mills.  They don't want the union in there so they pay their employees BETTER than local union wages, including benefits.  Last I heard, couple 5 years ago, general line production workers make close to $30 an hour on the check, plus excellent benefits.  This practice I have no problem with, if a union isn't needed for workers to get good wages, working conditions, and benefits, then no issue.  But tell me how they NEED to ship jobs overseas in order to make a profit.

They NEED to ship jobs overseas to make MORE profit.

if you were the capitalist, you would do the exact same thing.

You're not fighting the people here, you're fighting OTHER capitalists. The game of which is already in play.


Your ideas about a fair world would only make sense if nothing was happening right now, and tomorrow we start making the RIGHT choices..

We can't do that any more,  the opportunity to do so does not exist.

if YOU DON'T ship jobs overseas,  SOME ONE ELSE WILL...  and unless Bernie can stop EVERYONE from doing it,   None of his good-wishes will come true..  Because the person who ships the job, will out-compete the ones who do not...

So the American loving pay everybody a great wage guy goes under..  you lose your job, then what.


He'll at best create a system that even more greatly benefit large corporations because it'd raise the barriers against smaller businesses without the money to pay for an elite accounting department.

Sorry, look at Craftsman.  Since they moved production to China, their sales has PLUMMETED.  They lost probably 90% of all union sales.  I know unions are getting smaller and smaller these days, but that is still a significant portion of sales to lose.  Sears has been hemorrhaging money for a number of years now.   Jobs do NOT need to move overseas to be competitive.  The only reason to move overseas is corporate greed.

You say that all jobs that can be exported will.  What will that leave, education, repair, construction, police, emergency services, what else?  That won't work.  The country will totally collapse long before that happens.

Your arguments and rhetoric are nothing but justifications to move overseas.

[hwood34]

Sorry, look at Craftsman.  Since they moved production to China, their sales has PLUMMETED.  They lost probably 90% of all union sales.  I know unions are getting smaller and smaller these days, but that is still a significant portion of sales to lose.  Sears has been hemorrhaging money for a number of years now.   Jobs do NOT need to move overseas to be competitive.  The only reason to move overseas is corporate greed.

OK, so you think that the CEOs of companies are trying to make money moving jobs overseas to make more money for themselves, even though their profits will be less? Their pay is tied to the performance of the company, why would they intentionally do something that would make the company less profitable?

And that's two companies. I don't know much about Craftsman, but the major reason Sears' sales have been horrible is because they completely failed to transfer over to web sales. They made tons of money off of mail-order catalogs, but no one uses that anymore.

You say that all jobs that can be exported will.  What will that leave, education, repair, construction, police, emergency services, what else?  That won't work.  The country will totally collapse long before that happens.

It will leave the jobs that Americans can do better and cheaper than other countries

[hwood34]

Relentlessly shipping American jobs and money offshore with impunity is what "the system" has been all about since Reagan took office.

Sucks that this is all zero-sum so we lose those jobs forever and no one will ever get jobs in new areas. I also hate when I get cheaper goods...

Personally, with a lot of stuff, I would rather pay 3 times the price (especially hand tools) if it means it is US made and a quality product.  I refuse to buy any tools from sears without extenuating circumstances.  Even hand tools that stay at home and not for work.

And that's great for you, and you can keep buying the products from brands that keep their products made in America, since there's a market for that. There's also a very large market for people that would prefer to get cheaper goods. And it's not like goods made in other countries are automatically worse, I've bought things made in the US that were **** too. We can both use anecdotal evidence all day

[tp4tissue]

Sorry, look at Craftsman.  Since they moved production to China, their sales has PLUMMETED.  They lost probably 90% of all union sales.  I know unions are getting smaller and smaller these days, but that is still a significant portion of sales to lose.  Sears has been hemorrhaging money for a number of years now.   Jobs do NOT need to move overseas to be competitive.  The only reason to move overseas is corporate greed.

You say that all jobs that can be exported will.  What will that leave, education, repair, construction, police, emergency services, what else?  That won't work.  The country will totally collapse long before that happens.

Your arguments and rhetoric are nothing but justifications to move overseas.

Craftsman lost sales because of China yes,  but not because they -went-to- China..

Hahahahaha..   It's primarily because of how Low Tech their business is to begin with.. Not much they can protect and take a lead on. Any other brand , any country with the right export logistics can replace them..

In the end, everyone wants cheaper bolt cutters.. and someone overseas is willing to supply..

If craftsman didn't produce in China, some other US brand would..

[Waateva]

Sorry, look at Craftsman.  Since they moved production to China, their sales has PLUMMETED.  They lost probably 90% of all union sales.  I know unions are getting smaller and smaller these days, but that is still a significant portion of sales to lose.  Sears has been hemorrhaging money for a number of years now.   Jobs do NOT need to move overseas to be competitive.  The only reason to move overseas is corporate greed.

You say that all jobs that can be exported will.  What will that leave, education, repair, construction, police, emergency services, what else?  That won't work.  The country will totally collapse long before that happens.

Your arguments and rhetoric are nothing but justifications to move overseas.

Craftsman lost sales because of China yes,  but not because they -went-to- China..

Hahahahaha..   It's primarily because of how Low Tech their business is to begin with.. Not much they can protect and take a lead on. Any other brand , any country with the right export logistics can replace them..

In the end, everyone wants cheaper bolt cutters.. and someone overseas is willing to supply..

If craftsman didn't produce in China, some other US brand would..

Tons of other US brands produce stuff in China, but that's why my grandfather and my dad always bought Craftsman as their quality was so much better which made the higher cost worth it.  ****, my dad still has a bunch of tools that my grandpa bought probably 50-60 years ago that work just fine, wjile the Craftsman stuff made now probably won't make it to 10-20 years because the quality has dropped so much.  If I wanted to buy ****ty tools made in China I would go to Harbor Freight Tools and buy them.

[tp4tissue]

Tons of other US brands produce stuff in China, but that's why my grandfather and my dad always bought Craftsman as their quality was so much better which made the higher cost worth it.  ****, my dad still has a bunch of tools that my grandpa bought probably 50-60 years ago that work just fine, wjile the Craftsman stuff made now probably won't make it to 10-20 years because the quality has dropped so much.  If I wanted to buy ****ty tools made in China I would go to Harbor Freight Tools and buy them.

This is not a correct comparison.

The tools at harbor freight are not specced to be industrial.. They're designed as household tools, that most people will only use maybe a few times to fix small problems.

China also produces the -good tools- that are imported for industrial use. But obviously they wouldn't be selling these at harbor freight since that's not the market..


It comes down to Cost,  China can make durable or non-durable products depending on what the Customer demands..


The trend is on cost cutting.. and volume production..   They'd rather sell a million cheapo bolt cutters, then 5 good ones..

WHY ?   because industrial tools which DO LAST,  along with the guys who Buy them, DON"T buy that many..




In the end, the low end market is more profitable..



If you're a company,  you're offered a choice.


Sell 1 million  $10 bolt cutters to consumers for 10 million dollars.

OR

Sell 5,000 $50 bolt cutters to Professionals for 250 thousand..



Can they do both, SURE, and many of them do, but very generally, NO ONE cutting 6 bolts a year at home is going to need a $50 bolt cutter..   That product simply doesn't sell.


the market is suddenly much larger and more profitable, when it's open to regular consumers..   hence  Cheapo tools..

[iri]

Sucks that this is all zero-sum

It is not zero-sum at all.

See, I hate this trend of adding "/s" to sarcastic remarks, so I try to convey the irony as obviously as possible. I guess it just gets lost in text sometimes.

If your irony were vinegar, I'd be a pickle now.

[hwood34]

Tons of other US brands produce stuff in China, but that's why my grandfather and my dad always bought Craftsman as their quality was so much better which made the higher cost worth it.  ****, my dad still has a bunch of tools that my grandpa bought probably 50-60 years ago that work just fine, wjile the Craftsman stuff made now probably won't make it to 10-20 years because the quality has dropped so much.  If I wanted to buy ****ty tools made in China I would go to Harbor Freight Tools and buy them.

More

This is not a correct comparison.

The tools at harbor freight are not specced to be industrial.. They're designed as household tools, that most people will only use maybe a few times to fix small problems.

China also produces the -good tools- that are imported for industrial use. But obviously they wouldn't be selling these at harbor freight since that's not the market..


It comes down to Cost,  China can make durable or non-durable products depending on what the Customer demands..


The trend is on cost cutting.. and volume production..   They'd rather sell a million cheapo bolt cutters, then 5 good ones..

WHY ?   because industrial tools which DO LAST,  along with the guys who Buy them, DON"T buy that many..




In the end, the low end market is more profitable..



If you're a company,  you're offered a choice.


Sell 1 million  $10 bolt cutters to consumers for 10 million dollars.

OR

Sell 5,000 $50 bolt cutters to Professionals for 250 thousand..



Can they do both, SURE, and many of them do, but very generally, NO ONE cutting 6 bolts a year at home is going to need a $50 bolt cutter..   That product simply doesn't sell.


the market is suddenly much larger and more profitable, when it's open to regular consumers..   hence  Cheapo tools..

^

[SpAmRaY]

In regards to having things made in the USA, the majority of people anymore (at least the vocal majority) don't want the large plants, mills, mines etc it takes to do that because they view them as being too 'dirty'.

It's amazing when the local news does an article on yet another group of hundreds of people being laid off from somewhere that is closing and all the comments are people saying things like, ' good riddance', 'about time', 'now go find a green job', etc.

[hwood34]

In regards to having things made in the USA, the majority of people anymore (at least the vocal majority) don't want the large plants, mills, mines etc it takes to do that because they view them as being too 'dirty'.

It's amazing when the local news does an article on yet another group of hundreds of people being laid off from somewhere that is closing and all the comments are people saying things like, ' good riddance', 'about time', 'now go find a green job', etc.

Really? Still all I ever see is people going full on "DEY TOOK R JERBS."

[tp4tissue]

In regards to having things made in the USA, the majority of people anymore (at least the vocal majority) don't want the large plants, mills, mines etc it takes to do that because they view them as being too 'dirty'.

It's amazing when the local news does an article on yet another group of hundreds of people being laid off from somewhere that is closing and all the comments are people saying things like, ' good riddance', 'about time', 'now go find a green job', etc.

Really? Still all I ever see is people going full on "DEY TOOK R JERBS."

Let's be real.. Dhey Di Took Er Jerbs..


The economy, and our people must now get better jobs which the foreigners Can't take..

[SpAmRaY]

The economy, and our people must now get better jobs which the foreigners Can't take..

I'd love to hear some concrete examples of what exactly those jobs are.

[hwood34]

The economy, and our people must now get better jobs which the foreigners Can't take..

I'd love to hear some concrete examples of what exactly those jobs are.

Literally basically anything in higher-tech manufacturing. Like I said earlier, countries in SEA etc. don't have the capabilities, be it capital, technology, or infrastructure to break into it. They make bank off things like basic assembly as of now. A nice little example of this was the article a few weeks ago about the little balls in the tips of ballpoint pens. Factories where they were being produced in China would import the balls because it was cheaper. They lacked the means to produced the balls at the tolerances necessary.

[tp4tissue]

The economy, and our people must now get better jobs which the foreigners Can't take..

I'd love to hear some concrete examples of what exactly those jobs are.

Actuarial..

Financial engineering..

Astrophysicist..

Physicist..

Biochem..



ANYTHING that involves High level math..  you will be assured a Job..  in the worst case, at the university level..

[SpAmRaY]

The economy, and our people must now get better jobs which the foreigners Can't take..

I'd love to hear some concrete examples of what exactly those jobs are.

Actuarial..

Financial engineering..

Astrophysicist..

Physicist..

Biochem..

Dentist..

Surgeon..

ANYTHING that involves High level math..  you will be assured a Job..  at the worst case, at the university level..

Those are totally pointless for probably >75% of the population. And from what I've seen many university professors are outsourced

And what is financial engineering? Is that what has been going on for some time now within our government hahaha

 

[tp4tissue]

The economy, and our people must now get better jobs which the foreigners Can't take..

I'd love to hear some concrete examples of what exactly those jobs are.

Actuarial..

Financial engineering..

Astrophysicist..

Physicist..

Biochem..

Dentist..

Surgeon..

ANYTHING that involves High level math..  you will be assured a Job..  at the worst case, at the university level..

Those are totally pointless for probably >75% of the population. And from what I've seen many university professors are outsourced

And what is financial engineering? Is that what has been going on for some time now within our government hahaha

 

SIgh.. guys, again  think LONG TERM..

it's out of reach for 75% of the Americans today.

But it may be in reach for 50% of those American's Children..

And the Children of those Children will be in reach of those jobs for Certain.


These changes take time.. LIFE TIMES..  This is not Amazon.com where you click buy and something happens.

[digi]

The economy, and our people must now get better jobs which the foreigners Can't take..

I'd love to hear some concrete examples of what exactly those jobs are.

Actuarial..

Financial engineering..

Astrophysicist..

Physicist..

Biochem..

Dentist..

Surgeon..

ANYTHING that involves High level math..  you will be assured a Job..  at the worst case, at the university level..

Those are totally pointless for probably >75% of the population. And from what I've seen many university professors are outsourced

And what is financial engineering? Is that what has been going on for some time now within our government hahaha

 

SIgh.. guys, again  think LONG TERM..

it's out of reach for 75% of the Americans today.

But it may be in reach for 50% of those American's Children..

And the Children of those Children will be in reach of those jobs for Certain.


These changes take time.. LIFE TIMES..  This is not Amazon.com where you click buy and something happens.

hahaha, YES! The Amazon analogy was spot on TP!