Author Topic: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)  (Read 7000 times)

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Offline Leslieann

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Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 00:29:20 »
Windows 11?
But I thought Windows 10 was the last Windows, well it was according to Microsoft but plans change (and branding is hard and expensive).

Edit: I got a test copy last night, confirmed things now marked, yes with an image, strike when false.

So what's expected?
No one's actually put out anything (announcement is June 24) but we can probably make some predictions based on what was/is scheduled for Windows 10 and other ideas they've floated and where the market is headed. MS isn't really that innovative which makes them rather predictable.

The easy:
We know there is new icons coming, and that they plan to make a new push on the app store but those are planned for Win10, I suspect app store will be VERY prominent. There's also long (too long) talk of finally killing the old control panel . While I and probably you would like to say good riddance be careful what you wish for (Edit: not so bad!). There is quite a few areas of the new layout that is quite bad and being a control panel I suspect this is left to the lowest programmers because it just needs to function which is a low bar. Most of this was slated for Win10 they just hadn't been rolled it out, will they hit Win10 before Win11 is difficult to say but odds are they will be in Win11. (Edit: So far all pretty good)

The more difficult guess:
The most likely and the reason for the name change though is also the most radical, Windows is going web based and/or subscription based. It's long been rumored to be going subscription based but why web based? Because Chrome. The biggest threat to Windows in the last 30 years is not Mac, not Linux, not IOS or Android, it's Chrome. It runs on cheap devices and more importantly it's KILLING them in schools. What happens when those students are making buying decisions for companies? MS is close to losing an entire generation of Windows users and they need it to stop. This also ties those users to their app store which is like a built in monopoly, and this is one fight MS doesn't even have to fight, Apple is doing that for them. Going web based would allow them to put back the last missing bit of spyware, key logging. It was in Win10 early on but removed after France started asking questions.

My bet is they planned on a whole new name but creating a new brand from scratch is hard (and expensive) which is why the Galaxy name encompasses almost every Samsung phone and tablet instead of just the high end model, why we have a SUV based For Mustang. MS is equally bad if not worse Windows S, Windows X, Windows RT or better still just look at the Xbox naming system, It's pretty much a given they at least considered calling this Windows 365 but speculation points to it having a final name of Windows 11 based on a Youtube post put up by MS.

Edit: Starting to look like the UI is some similar to several newer OS, Gnome, Chrome etc... You will either love or HAAAATE the start menu changes. Mostly it looks like Windows 10X or a slight reskinned Win10. Why they needed a new OS name, who knows.


Other predictions:
Soft locked to the App store - Similar to current macs, it will heavily rely on the app store. It may or may not default to this but it will have a toggle.
Spyware - if web based it will allow them to re-enable the keylogger which is pretty much the only thing missing.
Possibly Linux kernel based - A very long shot but more likely on a web based version.

Edit: Mostly Win10 (10X) all over again with a slightly different look.


Will it be good?
Generally every other Windows version is good, personally I think this is a poor metric but people like to use it. XP was good, Vista was bad, 7 was good, 8 was bad, but do we count 8.1? The other problem is the very nature of Win11, if it's web based it will be something very different so it could be a home run or a complete and utter flop depending on who you ask, the one is you will have even less control of your computer. Personally, I want it to be good and I'm sure a lot of people will love it but there is almost zero chance this will be good for end users as a whole or even the industry, maybe even the planet to be honest. Extreme? How many laptops on the market are disposable and irreparable as of now? If this is web based and all your data is online you have even less reason to repair an older system and stores will just encourage you more and more to just replace it, just as Apple does now. Like Apple, MS is fighting right to repair legislation and this would fall right into that trap. After all, why fix it when you can get a shiny new computer for only a little more, and it comes with a new Windows license. Want to switch to Mac, sorry all your data is in the cloud so it won't be an easy move. So again, will it be good? Absolutely not, but it won't be obvious to most right away because all they will see is shiny.

Edit, I have always said Win10 was good, it was just MS policies that make it bad, this is no different.



More info:
Limits on remote access, not sure if unique to this)
Lots of arbitration clauses, again not sure if unique.
No mention of subscription, unlikely given it;s just Windows 10X.

Nice new installer, faster, simpler, nicer look.
Looks really nice, probably best out of box looking OS in a long time.

New start menu is love or hate. Apps are now an extra click with a button at top right of the window. MS is determined to bury it. Once clicked it's as disorganized as Win10. Sorry, i just don;t get or like that setup. It's just jumbled. You can divorce start from window lists and both can be left or centered, it's a bit buggy however at the moment. Many seem to dislike the centered start, which moves as apps are loaded, many like the consistent location and ease of access in the corner.

More Bing integration.
Setup/control panel simplified with removal of almost all of the old control panel. Looks and functions well except when you stumble onto an old panel from the old one, not all are reskinned but overall an improvement with less things buried so you can;t find them. Like show extensions in file explorer, which is actually defaulted to on(!) if you can believe it. Will that stay, we can hope, it's a security issue MS has always ignored.

Note: Nvidia also announced no more Win 7 or 8 drivers as of October this year, if you want to game you WILL be needing Win10 or 11 or switch to Linux.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 June 2021, 21:26:03 by Leslieann »
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 00:48:14 »
Prolly something around a custom cpu.  There's no way windows can continue to compete in the mobile space as is.   Apple's m1 and ios is a knock out.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 01:10:47 »
I'm expecting a total ****-show, in typical Microsoft fashion. Forced subscription-based Windows RT, or something like it.
Something that nobody wants.
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 01:24:50 »
Since Win10 has taken to holding my pc hostage to force updates I don't want I'll be switching to Linux

Offline fanpeople

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 02:36:43 »
Just the other day I was thinking about how long it has been since windows has tried to shill a new OS. Well now I know.

If it is subscription based, I am out. If I am forced to deal with an app store daily, I am out.

Then again I was literally looking at the new macs thinking about over paying for one simply because it comes in purple and I do **** all gaming now. Potentially, looking at being locked into 4 years of intensive tertiary education so only need a word processor and basic internet access. At least it would look pretty. Oh **** what happened to me.


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 07:26:53 »
Potentially, looking at being locked into 4 years of intensive tertiary education so only need a word processor and basic internet access. At least it would look pretty. Oh **** what happened to me.

Kekekekeke, fanpeeps gon' be aruond all them tertiary education females.

Offline fanpeople

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 07:47:46 »

Kekekekeke, fanpeeps gon' be aruond all them tertiary education females.


Yeah unfortunately these arn't the party every weekend types.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 07:51:14 »

If it is subscription based, I am out. If I am forced to deal with an app store daily, I am out.


Windows has tended to support versions after they are superseded, for some reasonable amount of time at least.

How long do you think that the "last" Windows version will be supported and used - realistically?

The installed base is obviously vast.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 07:58:31 »
There's no way windows can continue to compete in the mobile space as is.   Apple's m1 and ios is a knock out.
Doesn't matter how good it is, it's the default.
If you only knew how hard it was to get companies to spend more than even $300 on laptops and desktops you would understand why Mac has zero chance in those offices and that was just ones that sit on a desk, they switched to laptops because they were "cheaper than desktops".  It took 10 years to up-sell an owner from Emachines to a modest core I5 with 1300 resolution. That doesn't even get into the hassles of printers, scanners and various software suites, there's still A TON of industry specific websites that require Internet Explorer to function. No Edge, no Chrome or Chrome Edge and hell no to FIrefox, ONLY I.E. runs them.

Nor does it cover the training necessary to switch an office over. I spent 5 years getting an office to switch to a file server so at least they could say organized rather than all the data spread out over shared drives systems across 6 different systems. Getting them to agree to it took 5 years. I never got them off that before they broke the backup system and decided to switch to a Google Drive, which would have been a lot easier had they finally put all their data on the file server, but they hadn't. At this point things are spread across 3 systems, plus Google drive and the only backup is what's on Google and the Quickbooks which is backed up on two thumbdrives like it always has.

There is zero chance either of those offices will switch to anything Apple.
You have as much luck switching a photography shop to PC as you do switching an office over to Apple products, it just won't happen because the walls of the garden are just too tall for them to overcome even when they want to.

I'm expecting a total ****-show, in typical Microsoft fashion. Forced subscription-based Windows RT, or something like it.
Something that nobody wants.
There's long been rumors that if they did there would be a traditional license as well.
However many have speculated a free ad based version as well, which I guess you could almost say that's sort of how Win10 is currently done.


Then again I was literally looking at the new macs thinking about over paying for one simply because it comes in purple and I do **** all gaming now. Potentially, looking at being locked into 4 years of intensive tertiary education so only need a word processor and basic internet access. At least it would look pretty. Oh **** what happened to me.
They do look tasty and I do like the idea of ARM.
I'd want to see how some specific apps run as well as a couple specific WINE apps before I committed. I would also wait for M2, 16 or 32 cores, plus 32gigs ram in a long battery life laptop? Yes please!

More and more is geared toward the web, at this point we really only need a beefy GPU for a few things as even a laptop can manage 6 cores and 16 gigs of ram these days and power even the most hungry GPU. In fact Chrome on Windows is more resource intensive than almost any AAA game title. So yeah, it;s not surprising you can get away without a gpu and some of the new IGPUs are really not bad even then.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 08:20:45 »
How long do you think that the "last" Windows version will be supported and used - realistically?

The installed base is obviously vast.

How long will Win10 last?
The license says 10 years but I give it 2 years tops, in fact I give it 50/50 odds than Win7 outlives Win10 which is also going to plummet on users.

Why? Because Win10 has forced updates.
That OS is going to put you on Win11 probably by early next year whether you like it or not and when Win10 user base plummets like the Hindenburg so will support from vendors. That OS will be dead in no time because MS has full control over almost every installation of it.

Don't like it, you'll delay the update? Ha, MS can bypass that. You disabled updates entirely, great... What will you do when hardware and software vendors run away from it like it has a terminal case of Covid because everyone else left the platform? Go find drivers for Windows 8 on the AMD website, it's DEAD. You can get Win7 drivers, but no Windows 8 drivers because it has less  users than Linux and they even gave users somewhat of a chance to stop that update. Win10 is going to killed off and butchered faster than you can imagine.
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Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 08:25:21 »
I would have switched to Linux a long time ago if it weren't for Office.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 08:30:25 »
I would have switched to Linux a long time ago if it weren't for Office.
Older versions can run just fine in WINE and it wouldn't surprise me if they have newer versions running in Lutris.

You can always use seamless on virtualbox.

Edit: nope.
« Last Edit: Mon, 14 June 2021, 08:36:49 by Leslieann »
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 08:43:04 »

That OS is going to put you on Win11 probably by early next year whether you like it or not

Win10 is going to killed off and butchered faster than you can imagine.


I have a current desktop with a legit Windows 10 full retail disc all purchased new in 2020, a laptop legitimately updated from 7 OEM, and a couple of semi-retired "backup" desktops updated from legit 7 and 8 retail discs. One of them is now dedicated to the TV and I do connect it to the interwebs from time to time.

Does this "subscription model" mean that I will have to start paying a subscription fee even if MS incarcerates me against my will? And pay a separate fee for each box?
 

« Last Edit: Mon, 14 June 2021, 10:27:05 by fohat.digs »
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 15:47:56 »
I'm wondering what will happen when buying a new PC with a subscription-based Win11 installed.

You pay for the PC - would you have to sign up for a subscription for the OS there and then?  Or maybe get a month or two of "free" use before it locks up and/or starts nagging you to pay to keep it up to date.  MS could frighten a lot of non-technical users - "If you don't pay this subscription your system will not be updated and your private data will be at risk."

So maybe there will be a pay-once option plus a subscription, like with Office 365 (there is still a pay-once and install version of that, right?).

But there again I use a Mac at home and a Mac at work.  I have a Win10 PC but strictly only for games.
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Offline noahf

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 19:20:10 »
I heard windows 11 will introduce the feature that allows it to connect to your Covid vaccine chip. It won't be able to control the chip but you can get certain info from it. If you want logs though, you got to be a top tier business customer.

Im not sure I agree with the subscription model. It would be hard to go from a license fee to a subscriber fee on something used across so many platforms. Chrome and IOS are both free, windows is not. But paying monthly for windows would be a big move towards free os's.

More realistically I would see a tighter integration with the App Store + increased adds and a cheaper home version. Im not sure how worried they are about the "generation gap" of users using netbooks. You wouldn't see that at enterprise level workforces and thats where the real money is.

Offline Sintpinty

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 14 June 2021, 21:49:44 »
Windows 11?
But I thought Windows 10 was the last Windows, well it was according to Microsoft but plans change (and branding is hard and expensive).

So what's expected?
No one's actually put out anything (announcement is June 24) but we can probably make some predictions based on what was/is scheduled for Windows 10 and other ideas they've floated and where the market is headed. MS isn't really that innovative which makes them rather predictable.

The easy:
We know there is new icons coming, and that they plan to make a new push on the app store but those are planned for Win10, I suspect app store will be VERY prominent. There's also long (too long) talk of finally killing the old control panel. While I and probably you would like to say good riddance be careful what you wish for. There is quite a few areas of the new layout that is quite bad and being a control panel I suspect this is left to the lowest programmers because it just needs to function which is a low bar. Most of this was slated for Win10 they just hadn't been rolled it out, will they hit Win10 before Win11 is difficult to say but odds are they will be in Win11.

The more difficult guess:
The most likely and the reason for the name change though is also the most radical, Windows is going web based and/or subscription based. It's long been rumored to be going subscription based but why web based? Because Chrome. The biggest threat to Windows in the last 30 years is not Mac, not Linux, not IOS or Android, it's Chrome. It runs on cheap devices and more importantly it's KILLING them in schools. What happens when those students are making buying decisions for companies? MS is close to losing an entire generation of Windows users and they need it to stop. This also ties those users to their app store which is like a built in monopoly, and this is one fight MS doesn't even have to fight, Apple is doing that for them. Going web based would allow them to put back the last missing bit of spyware, key logging. It was in Win10 early on but removed after France started asking questions.

My bet is they planned on a whole new name but creating a new brand from scratch is hard (and expensive) which is why the Galaxy name encompasses almost every Samsung phone and tablet instead of just the high end model, why we have a SUV based For Mustang. MS is equally bad if not worse Windows S, Windows X, Windows RT or better still just look at the Xbox naming system, It's pretty much a given they at least considered calling this Windows 365 but speculation points to it having a final name of Windows 11 based on a Youtube post put up by MS.


Other predictions:
Soft locked to the App store - Similar to current macs, it will heavily rely on the app store. It may or may not default to this but it will have a toggle.
Spyware - if web based it will allow them to re-enable the keylogger which is pretty much the only thing missing.
Possibly Linux kernel based - A very long shot but more likely on a web based version.

Will it be good?
Generally every other Windows version is good, personally I think this is a poor metric but people like to use it. XP was good, Vista was bad, 7 was good, 8 was bad, but do we count 8.1? The other problem is the very nature of Win11, if it's web based it will be something very different so it could be a home run or a complete and utter flop depending on who you ask, the one is you will have even less control of your computer. Personally, I want it to be good and I'm sure a lot of people will love it but there is almost zero chance this will be good for end users as a whole or even the industry, maybe even the planet to be honest. Extreme? How many laptops on the market are disposable and irreparable as of now? If this is web based and all your data is online you have even less reason to repair an older system and stores will just encourage you more and more to just replace it, just as Apple does now. Like Apple, MS is fighting right to repair legislation and this would fall right into that trap. After all, why fix it when you can get a shiny new computer for only a little more, and it comes with a new Windows license. Want to switch to Mac, sorry all your data is in the cloud so it won't be an easy move. So again, will it be good? Absolutely not, but it won't be obvious to most right away because all they will see is shiny.

forced apps and ads i prob won't be upgrading until i absolutely have to

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 15 June 2021, 00:47:22 »
forced apps and ads i prob won't be upgrading until i absolutely have to
Better block updates now.

Not later.
Based on what they've done in the past, they will start slipping in bits of code so even if you block them now, it will wake up something later and pull in the update.


I'm wondering what will happen when buying a new PC with a subscription-based Win11 installed.

You pay for the PC - would you have to sign up for a subscription for the OS there and then?  Or maybe get a month or two of "free" use before it locks up and/or starts nagging you to pay to keep it up to date.  MS could frighten a lot of non-technical users - "If you don't pay this subscription your system will not be updated and your private data will be at risk."

When it expires I would imagine it will default to a nag screen similar to Win10 because locking out a user from all of their data is not a good policy and could lead to lawsuits. Imagine your whole office being down because of it, you're basically being held for ransom. The subscription will mostly work for people building their own systems, at least at first, over time it wouldn't be too surprising to see major vendors offer it as an option and eventually as the default but not right away. They would want to build trust in the system and wait for the bottom to fall out on prices before they do it.


I could also be wrong, it could go full web based and be entirely free to compete with Chrome*, but given Microsoft's track record I just don't see them doing it. There's too many old Microsoft people on the board and those guys only understand one thing, take every penny you can from anyone you can. It's old thinking, I'd even say it may have been why they failed in tablets and phones, they just can't let go of the idea of nickle and dime-ing vendors and users as much as possible. Have they learned and decided to change, I guess we find out later this month.

*They could also do as they have in the past where it's free on smaller screens.
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Offline chadrezzar

  • Posts: 16
Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 15 June 2021, 15:06:52 »
Just the other day I was thinking about how long it has been since windows has tried to shill a new OS. Well now I know.

If it is subscription based, I am out. If I am forced to deal with an app store daily, I am out.

Then again I was literally looking at the new macs thinking about over paying for one simply because it comes in purple and I do **** all gaming now. Potentially, looking at being locked into 4 years of intensive tertiary education so only need a word processor and basic internet access. At least it would look pretty. Oh **** what happened to me.

Honestly it's all so tiresome... At this point I'm waiting for me to open notepad one day and be given a popup about how I'm not paying my notepad subscr.  whilst spamming me with 2003 style popup ads with sounds playing in 15 different tabs :mad:

Windows 10 already had(has) a ridiculous amount of telemetry build in which was a pain in the ass to disable... Then there are the simple things you could get to in a couple clicks at most on windows 7 being hidden in 15 different unintuitive menu's...
I'm not looking forward to see what kind of cluster**** they've cooked up this time around.
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 June 2021, 15:11:41 by chadrezzar »

Offline Darthbaggins

  • Posts: 476
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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 15 June 2021, 15:21:14 »
If it weren't for a mass of games and the Adobe suite, I would be on a Linux Debian based distro.  But until Adobe and Bungie (and many other game launchers/studios get their head out of their nether regions) I will be sitting on w10 for now.  Also I guess once it's rolled out I will have to get used to it due to the company I work with and wonder how well this will work for schools and other entities that we mass deploy for.  I know for our Azure based imaging program it would simplify things to a degree or make things worse.

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D


Offline rowdy

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Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 15 June 2021, 17:49:27 »
Every time someone mentions a new version of windows GeekHack be like

Offline kizuna

  • Posts: 25
Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 15 June 2021, 20:03:02 »
wow for ms going this route. I remember the days when you bought you os and owned it with updates for free and when you bought a video games you owned it and got updates for free.

When are the masses gonna wake up see that we are being forced into these subscriptions for every single type of software now.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 15 June 2021, 23:08:10 »
Every time someone mentions a new version of windows GeekHack be like
I said at launch Win10 was a good OS, it was just MS policies screwing it up.

I'll make the same prediction here, it will be a great OS, web based or not, it's going to be how MS controls and manages it that will be the problem.
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Offline mylordie

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 16 June 2021, 04:27:39 »
Windows 10 was released in 2015 and I started to use it only in 2018. THe same will be with Win 11. Tons of crashes and freezes initially are guaranteed. So why do we need to endure all developer mistakes to enjoy usual OS. I will definitely install it in 2023. Well, I'm interested in Android emulators actually. Will they add some of them on built-in basis? It is a great option as seems to me. Modded games and apps are welcome too. I will really enjoy playing Dragon city installed through third-party mod apk, for example. Hope it would be some kind of independent emulator with no connection to official sources. Not every PC is available for playing cool games, so such an approach can solve this issue. 
« Last Edit: Thu, 17 June 2021, 05:08:39 by mylordie »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 16 June 2021, 08:05:29 »
Windows 10 was released in 2015 and I started to use it only in 2018. THe same will be with Win 11. Tons of crashes and freezes initially are guaranteed. So why do we need to endure all developer mistakes to enjoy usual OS. I will definitely install it in 2023.
It's starting to look more like just a skinned Win10, so probably not.

Win10 has always actually been quite stable in beta and release, and it should, it was heavily based on Win8.1, it was just as stable as Win7 in beta, the only reason it's had such news worthy screw ups is because of how Win10 handles updates. On older systems you updated at your convenience, this meant it went in small phases and as such it gave time for word to get out when there was a problem, experts could watch news feeds and know a problem was coming and avoid it. With Win10 there is very little you can do to avoid a bad update, sure you can delay updates but if MS decides it's not worth pausing and fixing that update all you can do is sit waiting around for it to finally reach you and then either remove and disable it and hope they don't simply re-issue it again (THANKS!) or hope they immediately send out a secondary patch (saw one system boot loop for 3 days then self correct).

Imagine being the poor S.O.B. who maintains several offices with 80+ systems without volume licensing when a bad patch rolls out...  Or you go to make a minor change on a customer's system and it spends 45 minutes installing updates on reboot that the customer kept putting off (which often fixes the problem you were called out for, the restart, not the update, still going to charge you). There is never a 5 minute fix anymore. Ever. It's going to be 45 minutes at least and if they have 5 systems you can bet that what should be 15 minute job just became 3+hours because even if you think you will be smart and stagger them expecting it to take only an single hour it's going to take 3. It's just how Win10 is.  It's because of things like this that industry people rail against it while the average person says it runs great. Say what you want but from my perspective it hasn't gotten any better since launch it's just that techs and media are tired of screaming about it and nothing changing. We have a few more tools to use, but the underlying problems remain.


If MS operates how they did with Win10, they probably already pre-seeded the Win11 install script several months ago under the guise of a security patch so even if you disable updates now you're probably too late by several months and you will be fighting to keep Win11 off your system. My guess is that a year after launch non-corporate Win10 user base will be close to single digit market share, which is effectively dead in the Windows ecosystem. Also if Microsoft returns to old formulas, by end of 2023 we will see Windows 12, so no point in using 11 at that point, heck, they could even adopt a fast cycle like web browsers and we could see Win12 by end of next year and and Win13 by 2023. Why would you switch to 11 then?

You have far less choice on what Windows you use than you think.
Software and hardware limitations, real or imposed, really do limit your options, for example try doing VR in Win7. Sorry. Want a new AMD GPU, no Win 8 drivers exist for the RX series, Win7 or Win10 only and since no VR in Win7 that leaves only Win10.  Want a new Intel or AMD CPU, Win10 only for several generations now. There's workarounds for them but it's limited and it gets more and more difficult as the hardware ages and software doesn't. Even finding the tools to do this gets more difficult as many companies removed the software, Gigabyte used to offer one that made it easy, it's gone.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 16 June 2021, 08:51:05 »

It's starting to look more like just a skinned Win10

there is very little you can do to avoid a bad update, sure you can delay updates

If MS operates how they did with Win10, they probably already pre-seeded the Win11 install script several months ago

by end of 2023 we will see Windows 12


So, when I foolishly imagined that when MS said that Windows 10 would be the last version of Windows that meant that there would not be a Windows 11, I was misunderstanding the word "last" - OK.

Regardless of the provenance or future trajectory for Windows, the real issue for me is whether I will have to start paying. Will there be an announcement followed by intense screaming and crying (with "x" percentage of the base peeling off and going elsewhere), and then the majority of users will just send in credit card numbers so that they can get dinged for $10 per month?

And since I like and very regularly use desktop icons and the Control Panel, and I keep all my important files on local disks rather than sending them off into the cloud, MS has already written me off as a customer?

PS - "the cloud is secure" - when (not if) we get the next major solar flare (the one just before the Civil War melted telegraph wires and exploded terminals!) it could take months or years, not days or weeks, to get planet-wide communications back to "normal"
"We're playing for real here."
- Joe Biden 2021-09-10

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 16 June 2021, 21:32:49 »
So, when I foolishly imagined that when MS said that Windows 10 would be the last version of Windows that meant that there would not be a Windows 11, I was misunderstanding the word "last" - OK.
You didn't imagine it, they said it.
"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further. "


And since I like and very regularly use desktop icons and the Control Panel, and I keep all my important files on local disks rather than sending them off into the cloud, MS has already written me off as a customer?

This has tighter integration of web services and they have killed all but a few remnants of the old control panel. Fear not, they have fixed a lot of the "setup" issues. It's better than Win10 in this aspect, still not as nice as the old style, but better than Win10.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 16 June 2021, 21:38:36 »
Going back to what I said about having a choice in your OS...
Nvidia announced yesterday that as of October they will discontinue Win7 and Windows 8 drivers.

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 16 June 2021, 21:58:02 »
All of this was integrated into the first post except my last comment about using it.


I got a test copy last night.

Not web based
and the license has no mention of subscription, but it also does not rule it out.
Mostly seems a reskin and new start menu, mostly based on Windows X, why they needed a new name, who knows. Especially odd since they claimed this was the last Windows.

In the T.O.S.
Limits on remote access, not sure if unique to this.
Lots of arbitration clauses, again not sure if unique.

The U.I.
Nice new installer, faster, simpler, nicer look.
Looks really nice, probably best out of box looking OS in a long time.

New start menu is love or hate.
Apps are now an extra click with a button at top right of the window. MS is determined to bury it. Once clicked it's as disorganized as Win10. Sorry, i just don't get or like that setup. It's just jumbled. You can divorce start from window lists and both can be left or centered, it's a bit buggy however at the moment. Many seem to dislike the centered start (a la Mac), which moves as apps are loaded, many like the consistent location and ease of access in the corner. If you like a traditional start menu you will hate it, if you like Chrome, KDE (default) or Gnome you will like it.

More Bing integration.
Setup/control panel simplified with removal of almost all of the old control panel. Looks and functions well except when you stumble onto an old panel from the old one, not all are reskinned but overall an improvement with less things buried so you can;t find them. Like show extensions in file explorer, which is actually defaulted to on(!) if you can believe it. Will that stay, we can hope, it's a security issue MS has always ignored.

App store has not changed much, but is expected to and play a bigger part.
I also wouldn't put it past them for more nag screens when you change default apps.


Will I use it?
Just like Win10, absolutely not. I can appreciate the changes and I'll have to know it and how to fix it, but I won't be switching to it. Windows is easy and able to do just about anythin, that doesn't mean efficient. These days I prefer efficiency, privacy and safety.  None of which is Windows these days.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 17 June 2021, 08:20:37 »

Apps are now an extra click with a button at top right of the window. MS is determined to bury it.

You can divorce start from window lists

If you like a traditional start menu you will hate it

More Bing integration.

Setup/control panel simplified with removal of almost all of the old control panel.

Like show extensions in file explorer, which is actually defaulted to on(!) if you can believe it.


It sounds like they read my mind and answered with the middle finger.

Pretty much everything I regularly do involving programs and web sites is with desktop icons (many associated with keyboard shortcuts) and everything having to do with "housekeeping" on the computer itself is done through the Control Panel. I deeply resent the extra mouse-clicking involved with Start menus, and other "buried" zones because I prefer to minimize mouse use whenever possible.

I do love File Explorer and use it many times every day, and file extensions are essential.

Bing? When I install Windows my first priority is to bury Cortana and Bing as deep as I can dig the hole.
"We're playing for real here."
- Joe Biden 2021-09-10

Offline Darthbaggins

  • Posts: 476
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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 17 June 2021, 10:13:52 »
Windows 10 was released in 2015 and I started to use it only in 2018. THe same will be with Win 11. Tons of crashes and freezes initially are guaranteed. So why do we need to endure all developer mistakes to enjoy usual OS. I will definitely install it in 2023.
It's starting to look more like just a skinned Win10, so probably not.

Win10 has always actually been quite stable in beta and release, and it should, it was heavily based on Win8.1, it was just as stable as Win7 in beta, the only reason it's had such news worthy screw ups is because of how Win10 handles updates. On older systems you updated at your convenience, this meant it went in small phases and as such it gave time for word to get out when there was a problem, experts could watch news feeds and know a problem was coming and avoid it. With Win10 there is very little you can do to avoid a bad update, sure you can delay updates but if MS decides it's not worth pausing and fixing that update all you can do is sit waiting around for it to finally reach you and then either remove and disable it and hope they don't simply re-issue it again (THANKS!) or hope they immediately send out a secondary patch (saw one system boot loop for 3 days then self correct).

Imagine being the poor S.O.B. who maintains several offices with 80+ systems without volume licensing when a bad patch rolls out...  Or you go to make a minor change on a customer's system and it spends 45 minutes installing updates on reboot that the customer kept putting off (which often fixes the problem you were called out for, the restart, not the update, still going to charge you). There is never a 5 minute fix anymore. Ever. It's going to be 45 minutes at least and if they have 5 systems you can bet that what should be 15 minute job just became 3+hours because even if you think you will be smart and stagger them expecting it to take only an single hour it's going to take 3. It's just how Win10 is.  It's because of things like this that industry people rail against it while the average person says it runs great. Say what you want but from my perspective it hasn't gotten any better since launch it's just that techs and media are tired of screaming about it and nothing changing. We have a few more tools to use, but the underlying problems remain.


If MS operates how they did with Win10, they probably already pre-seeded the Win11 install script several months ago under the guise of a security patch so even if you disable updates now you're probably too late by several months and you will be fighting to keep Win11 off your system. My guess is that a year after launch non-corporate Win10 user base will be close to single digit market share, which is effectively dead in the Windows ecosystem. Also if Microsoft returns to old formulas, by end of 2023 we will see Windows 12, so no point in using 11 at that point, heck, they could even adopt a fast cycle like web browsers and we could see Win12 by end of next year and and Win13 by 2023. Why would you switch to 11 then?

You have far less choice on what Windows you use than you think.
Software and hardware limitations, real or imposed, really do limit your options, for example try doing VR in Win7. Sorry. Want a new AMD GPU, no Win 8 drivers exist for the RX series, Win7 or Win10 only and since no VR in Win7 that leaves only Win10.  Want a new Intel or AMD CPU, Win10 only for several generations now. There's workarounds for them but it's limited and it gets more and more difficult as the hardware ages and software doesn't. Even finding the tools to do this gets more difficult as many companies removed the software, Gigabyte used to offer one that made it easy, it's gone.

Actually the w11 has already shown it's signs in the 21H1 updates that MSFT started rolling out the past couple of months.  11 will just be a re-skin of 10 but I know they are adding the Win-Get command to Command Prompt/Terminal for those of us that need it for mass deployment of machines and scripts.

   I personally have had minimal issues w/ 10 but again when there is one, it has made sure to be a big issue and sometimes is a wipe and re-install or a command based rebuild (normally it's due to a corrupt or bad update package).  I really do miss the ability to pick and choose my updates.

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D


Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 18 June 2021, 00:06:53 »
It sounds like they read my mind and answered with the middle finger.
I'm not sure if we were just the minority or they ignored us but every forum i saw discussing Win10 was seemingly the same thing, every suggestion was either ignored or they did the opposite, so no surprise there.

Remember they made start difficult then did a survey to see how often it was used, noticed it dropped then used that to justify burying it further. Well yeah we use it less, you made it a pain in the neck!

Bing? When I install Windows my first priority is to bury Cortana and Bing as deep as I can dig the hole.
And MS doesn't like when you do that so now they will force it on you even more. Edge will always run in background feeding your weathrr and widgets from Bing.

The beatings will continue until moral improves!!!
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 18 June 2021, 00:10:36 »
Actually the w11 has already shown it's signs in the 21H1 updates that MSFT started rolling out the past couple of months.  11 will just be a re-skin of 10 but I know they are adding the Win-Get command to Command Prompt/Terminal for those of us that need it for mass deployment of machines and scripts.

I have the leaked copy, as released is lacks those features.
They are expected to appear later and may already be in the latest updates but they were not in the leaked copy as shipped and I'm not going to allow a leaked copy found through dubious methods to run outside a sandbox, not with the current state of Windows malware. There's never been a more perfect opportunity for inserting malware.
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 18 June 2021, 18:39:00 »
https://www.osnews.com/story/133564/windows-11-with-new-ux-confirmed-in-a-leak/

Quote
If this is the “next generation of Windows”, Microsoft is delusional.

From the screenshots in The Verge article, it looks more macOS-like to me - "dock" icons in the middle of the screen and rounded corners are two of the first things that strike a macOS user.  I remember when Windows 95 came out and it looked very Mac-like with its recycle bin and long filenames.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/15/22535123/microsoft-windows-11-leak-screenshots-start-menu
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline fanpeople

  • Posts: 969
Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 18 June 2021, 20:07:47 »
https://www.osnews.com/story/133564/windows-11-with-new-ux-confirmed-in-a-leak/

Quote
If this is the “next generation of Windows”, Microsoft is delusional.

From the screenshots in The Verge article, it looks more macOS-like to me - "dock" icons in the middle of the screen and rounded corners are two of the first things that strike a macOS user.  I remember when Windows 95 came out and it looked very Mac-like with its recycle bin and long filenames.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/15/22535123/microsoft-windows-11-leak-screenshots-start-menu

This is Windows sticking to tradition. Wait for Windows 12 6 months after the release of 11, it will be magical.


Offline rowdy

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #35 on: Sat, 19 June 2021, 20:33:47 »
https://www.osnews.com/story/133564/windows-11-with-new-ux-confirmed-in-a-leak/

Quote
If this is the “next generation of Windows”, Microsoft is delusional.

From the screenshots in The Verge article, it looks more macOS-like to me - "dock" icons in the middle of the screen and rounded corners are two of the first things that strike a macOS user.  I remember when Windows 95 came out and it looked very Mac-like with its recycle bin and long filenames.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/15/22535123/microsoft-windows-11-leak-screenshots-start-menu

This is Windows sticking to tradition. Wait for Windows 12 6 months after the release of 11, it will be magical.



Microsfot sticking with the "every second release" mantra :))
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline atarione

  • Posts: 141
Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 21 June 2021, 22:53:22 »
Meh....  running a vm of 21996.1  If it is indeed windows 11 rather than a win 10 update... i don't really see why exactly... I'm pretty sure once you activate it (which I'm not doing) you can move the start menu to the left where it belongs... but I still see a lot of Hodgepodge mash up of old windows interfaces  with newer settings stuff and overlap / annoying having to open one or the other to do what you want..  the UI is still a cluster at least in this build...    In fairness I have used it for about exactly 20minutes.. so not very extensively  .... why ??? I don't see the point so far...

271021-0

« Last Edit: Tue, 22 June 2021, 13:28:55 by atarione »

Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 23 June 2021, 13:39:49 »
wonder if they added new win key short cuts with 11 (10+), but from what I've been seeing in my preview builds of 21h1 most of 11 just looks like visual changes that they are starting to implement already w/in the current update stream (more than likely trying to get users used to it ahead of time). 

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D



Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 23 June 2021, 23:43:10 »
If it is indeed windows 11 rather than a win 10 update... i don't really see why exactly...

It's Win11, the installer and system info confirms as much (as does the video MS made of startup sounds dragged out for 11 minutes) but it is heavily based on Win10.
It started off as Win10X, which was meant for a dual screen, keyboard-less laptop (pics are here) intended to debut at end of this year but that project flopped in reviewer testing (I'm shocked!). How do you snatch success in the face of defeat, re-brand! If you can't sell a new laptop design to create OS sales, rebrand it as Win11 and sell it as a new OS.

We may not see a subscription or web based OS this time round, but I still think MS has something in the works that goes down that path, if it was supposed to be the last before they switched to this new non-Windows OS it would explain "Win10 is the last Windows" comment when it was said. There's no way MS is so short sighted to think they wouldn't need a new OS at some point, and if it was the last, why label it with "10", why not just call it Windows or Windows Perpetual or something, once all other Windows were extinct the number means nothing, it can just be Windows.

So regardless of what this license holds I still think they have something else coming and I suspect we will see it with a year or two.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 10:08:58 »
WOW
Something missing in the win11 coverage is system requirements... You need 64bit, 4gigs of ram(!) and 64gigs drive space, but you will also require(!) an internet connection and MS account to setup Home Edition or switch out of S mode (which is only supported in Home), and for all instances you will need Secure Boot and TPM 1.2 hardware and 2.0 software or better. Secure boot is a joke, a hassle but most anything made in a decade supports it.

TPM 2.0 however is a BIG problem, according to Microsoft you will need AT LEAST Ryzen 2000 or Intel 7th Gen in order to run Win11.]
List of supported AMD processors
List of supported Intel processors
This may or may not be the entirety, it may only be what they tested (or tested so far), but this is the approved list far and even if this grows it's still cutting off a massive amount of older systems and I'm sure hardware makers and e-waste recyclers are salivating at this. BTW, if your system doesn't work they merely give you a meaningless incompatible error message.


Other major changes that Linus Tech Tips dug out...
Start menu can't be resized
Start menu no longer had support for folders and groups
Taskbar is now locked to bottom of the screen
Live tiles are gone, they want you to use the news and widgets
Pinned apps and system tray apps will or may not migrate when you upgrade but are at least still supported.
Tablet mode is gone, a new system will auto switch modes automatically.
The complete list is here.

Anyone else getting Win 8.0 flashbacks?
No worries, just keep using Win10 right? Except that they plan to retire Win10 in 2025 and I'm willing to bet Win10 support is dried up well before that. Well, I was, until I saw these new hardware requirements, there's going to be a ton of stranded users. Microsoft just went full Apple on you and from the sounds of it they're going to be pushing this hard, especially if you game. You're going to be on Win11, hardware not supported? Oh well, buy a new system you pleb!

Granted, I get it, by the time Win10 support ends the newest unsupported cpus will be around 9 years old but those systems are perfectly capable of running this system because other than TPM support there's almost zero difference between a 6th gen Intel cpu  and a 7th gen. We can run Win10 on 800mhz original Atom cpus, this is not a performance issue it's about DRM. You thought Win10 allowed MS to own your system, welcome to Windows 10 version 2.0 where you have even less control.
« Last Edit: Fri, 25 June 2021, 10:11:01 by Leslieann »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 11:18:59 »
Thanks for the update, says all I need to know to not even be curious to see it for myself.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 11:47:56 »

I'm sure hardware makers and e-waste recyclers are salivating at this.


Hardware makers of course, but won't this kill the market for US discards in the third world?
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 12:23:59 »

I'm sure hardware makers and e-waste recyclers are salivating at this.


Hardware makers of course, but won't this kill the market for US discards in the third world?
Fast hardware for them to run Linux on sounds good to me, if there's plenty available they should actually get a good deal too (not that I'm saying someone must be exploiting them but they probably are)
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 13:59:06 »
Wonder how MS will hold hostage and force 10 users to switch over. Send robots with guns to each home? Shut down integral apps or services? Make comparability intentionally worse? Can't wait to find out.

Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 15:10:40 »
I was ticked to see that TPM 2.0 requirement, those of us on HEDT hardware (Intel's x99/x299 or TR40/x) are not compatible w/ w11 due to this requirement.  I'm not downgrading my hardware for an OS compatibility - so they lost me for their testing pool.  I have a feeling they will eventually drop this but that would be for the more workstation/enterprise focused desktops.  I would fully cross over to Linux, but again game developers refuse to support it (a majority of them, not all).

Considering Linux (mainly a modded Ubuntu 19.10 or 18.** variant) I think I now have a use for my old 960 EVO 500GB, might just toss a copy on it and let 'er rip.
« Last Edit: Fri, 25 June 2021, 15:19:10 by Darthbaggins »

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D


Offline rowdy

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 19:59:29 »
Windows 11 Supported Intel Processors
06/24/2021
9 minutes to read


This is idiocy taken to a new level.

If Microsfot are going to make a relatively large percentage of old systems incompatible, why not just drop all the legacy crap out of the operating system and support 10 for a bit longer.  That way people who do not want to or cannot afford to upgrade can continue to use 10, and everyone else can embrace the brave new 11 world without backwards compatibility, which is more like what Apple does.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline fanpeople

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 20:29:26 »
Windows 11 Supported Intel Processors

Well turns out I won't be migrating to Windows 11, but not due to choice apparently.

Think I will buy that overpriced purple mac just because.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 20:41:16 »
Wonder how MS will hold hostage and force 10 users to switch over. Send robots with guns to each home? Shut down integral apps or services? Make comparability intentionally worse? Can't wait to find out.
Same way they did it with Win8.1 and Win10.
If your system can't be upgraded they will offer you $100 towards a new system in the Microsoft store.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #49 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 21:46:01 »

TL/DR at the bottom regarded expanded compatibility... More do qualify.
------------------------------------------------------------------

So I decided to do some digging and see if anything else would qualify.
What a rabbit hole that was.

TPM is on the board, it's a separate chip not controlled by AMD or Intel and there's no guarantee your motherboard has it, and they manufacturer may not even disclose if it does, where it is or what version. Laptops very often do have them and disclose this but on a desktop, good luck. I started off looking at Intel 6th gen to see if anything was mentioned and found nothing. The TPM page on Wikipedia discusses when and how standards were set but nothing regarding implementation. Intel ARK says nothing about it. So I decided to check on motherboards, first stop, my motherboard, it's a Gigabyte 370 hosting an 8700k, so it technically qualifies according to Microsoft. Gigabyte doesn't mention TPM in the specs, Intel lists nothing in the specs, and this is a problem. If no one says it, how will you know your system actually qualifies?

So I decided to check my laptop, I know they tend to list that spec right? Well they used to, not anymore. I've been using a Lenovo T450 lately, which is a 5th gen Intel (I sold off my Macbook). Checking the Lenovo website and I can't find it listed at all and I know it has a TPM chip. A bit more digging reveals a TPM chip driver, but no listing for what version it has. A bunch more digging shows the TPM 1.2 dates back as far as 2017 for Lenovo, unfortunately that means it could be an early 8th gen laptop they referred to, or it can mean it's a 6th gen, but even if it is 1.2 that doesn't mean it has a 2.0 driver available. And if I can't find it after nearly an hour of digging (for all of this), good luck average users finding out this info. Now it's possible if it just needs a driver Lenovo could crank one out, but I can guarantee you Asus will NOT backport a driver for this, I already dealt with recycling a really nice laptop because of Asus not backporting a minor update to allow Windows 8.1 to run on a 1st gen Core series. Asus does NOT care one bit about older systems, I experienced issues with Sony doing similar years ago as well. If it's not a corporate supplier count on nothing.


This is a mess.
I suspect Microsoft initially planned on this being a laptop OS, specifically for new laptops with very limited back portability and when that idea morphed they just left that requirement in place completely ignoring the realities of users. Normally I would say don't sweat it, they will roll this back for release and many have stated as much but with MS posting that compatibility list you can probably kiss that idea goodbye.


More info TL/DR
So after all that mess, just as I went to post this I decided to do something different, I fired up my laptop (Lenovo T450 / 5th gen I5) and went into bios, where, thankfully in there Lenovo disclosed what it had in it, a 1.2 TPM chip with 2.0 software. Doing more digging I found that the T440 (4th gen Intel) I have also has a similar setup, so at least in theory they can both run Win11, however the 1st gen Asus ROG gaming laptop doesn't mention a TPM chip at all in bios or the website and best i can tell it lacks it entirely. This means at least some older systems, mostly corporate grade laptops and OEM workstations, should be able to run Win11. Ironically, older Apples all included it, Apple used it to lock MacOs to their hardware.

I still think this whole thing is one big mess and going to generate a lot of e-waste.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #50 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 04:47:03 »
Update:
Word is now it's TPM 1.2 for self builds and 2.0 for OEM licenses, and that anything made post 2011 "should" work (provided your bios enables it) but Microsoft has yet to verify any of this.


I tried installing it to the T440.
The OS claims it's not compatible, I tried TPM 1.2 and 2.0, no luck. I did some digging, Microsoft says there is a bug that is causing compatible hardware to show up as incompatible and they are working on it. The installer was also quite strict regarding how the boot disk was prepped and failed to explain why it failed. I tried running setup from inside Windows and it errored out saying it needs TPM 2.0, at least this time it gave me an error instead of nothing, unfortunately it also sounds like the compatibility error and I have no way around it until a newer ISO drops.

The worrisome part is that while they acknowledge it has an issue and say they are working on it it also means they absolutely plan on enforcing these mandates.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #51 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 08:06:40 »

Word is now it's TPM 1.2 for self builds and 2.0 for OEM licenses

I tried installing it to the T440.
The OS claims it's not compatible, I tried TPM 1.2 and 2.0, no luck. I did some digging, Microsoft says there is a bug that is causing compatible hardware to show up as incompatible and they are working on it.


I will be following this with interest. I have a T440p that I bought used with no hard drive and added a new SSD a few years ago.

I honestly can't remember how I got Windows 10 onto it but it was probably via my retail 8.1 disc and then the free MS migration to 10 which was common at the time.

So, is MS going to continue grandfathering in all current 10 installs, or will they try to root out installs that they deem illegit?
Or will everybody have to start paying subscription fees making the provenance of their install moot?
« Last Edit: Sat, 26 June 2021, 21:20:06 by fohat.digs »
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Offline Darthbaggins

  • Posts: 476
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  • PC Cannibal
Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #52 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 08:44:52 »
Update:
Word is now it's TPM 1.2 for self builds and 2.0 for OEM licenses, and that anything made post 2011 "should" work (provided your bios enables it) but Microsoft has yet to verify any of this.


I tried installing it to the T440.
The OS claims it's not compatible, I tried TPM 1.2 and 2.0, no luck. I did some digging, Microsoft says there is a bug that is causing compatible hardware to show up as incompatible and they are working on it. The installer was also quite strict regarding how the boot disk was prepped and failed to explain why it failed. I tried running setup from inside Windows and it errored out saying it needs TPM 2.0, at least this time it gave me an error instead of nothing, unfortunately it also sounds like the compatibility error and I have no way around it until a newer ISO drops.

The worrisome part is that while they acknowledge it has an issue and say they are working on it it also means they absolutely plan on enforcing these mandates.

Some people have started finding a way around using the bootloader from 21h1 which bypasses the TPM requirement all together. 

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D


Offline rowdy

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #53 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 19:22:50 »
I have a T440p that I bought used with no hard drive and added a new SSK a few years ago.

Been using IBM keyboard far too long? :D

[...] Microsoft says there is a bug that is causing compatible hardware to show up as incompatible and they are working on it.

The cynical among us might suggest that Microsfot have underestimated the negative feedback they're receive to the strict hardware limitations, and are frantically trying to loosen them up a bit.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #54 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 21:22:37 »
I have a T440p that I bought used with no hard drive and added a new SSK a few years ago.

Been using IBM keyboard far too long?

Flying fingers make mistakes. But I did also add a new SSK a few years ago, too bad it came out of the box with over half its rivets broken.




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Offline Sintpinty

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #55 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 21:47:34 »
ahh rounded edges nooo

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #56 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 23:09:59 »
Some people have started finding a way around using the bootloader from 21h1 which bypasses the TPM requirement all together. 
For now.
I did similar to sneak 8.1 and Win10 onto non compatible systems, the problem is while it works, it's just like a Hackintosh, the next update could break it.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #57 on: Sun, 27 June 2021, 00:00:41 »
Soo more digging, more info...

MS put out more info about compatibility, it was as I expected just the tested/certified, not a hard list. Good since even current selling Surface tablets didn't meet specs but oh boy did they drop a whopper.

So TPM and other requirements...
Intel and AMD cpus made in the last decade have it built in, don't go buying a TPM usb chip, you probably won't need it. It does require UEF and Secure Boot, so if you installed using CSM or BIOS, you will need to either reinstall or convert it to EFI, the latter is not simple but probably a good option for those with tons of data, however I would recommend backing up before you do it. You need to do this before you can enable Secure boot.

The new information brings to light the part that's going to absolutely trainwreck laptops is not TPM or secure boot, it's the GPU. The GPU must be DX12 compatible. I suspect one error the installer has is it's erroring out on the GPU and blaming the TPM, you can't fix something when you get the wrong error message.
R7 series AMD or later
GTX 700 or later Nvidia
Intel 6000 series or 500 series or better, this means 8th gen Intel Core or 5000 series Atom.

Is there a way around the GPU, I wouldn't be surprised, we've managed it in the past but refer to my post above, the next update could still wreck it (and it will stop it from auto updating to 11). Also being that it's a driver hack, it's possible you will need to disable driver certification in order to make it work and this opens up a security issues. Another issue bypassing this will be system load and display problems, we aren't talking a sound problem or tearing, the screen could simply display nothing at times. So the real question is how "required" is DX12, I'll probably fire up the T440 and force the install just to see because I do think this will be the biggest problem people will face.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #58 on: Sun, 27 June 2021, 07:54:04 »
Good news:
I found a tool that actually checks compatibility and actually works, who'd have thunk. In the Lenovo EFI you need to select the TPM type, then go to the next entry and click "Enable". Seriously Lenovo, why? Anyhow, I missed it half a dozen or so times. It still throws a hard error for the GPU.

Semi bad news
Test results, all is fine except the GPU, I got the first round of install to go (disable safeboot then re-enable on first restart), however when it does the first reboot and starts to do the setup from the drive itself I get an error. I tried to get into the drive using a Linux disk and swap out the hardware checker and see if it gets past this but it's a 90% installed, it looks like qa full Windows Install mid upgrade and nothing like the install disk so I'm at a bit of a loss on this short of wiping out a bunch of the driver system which could just make things worse. Bummer. I'll keep my eyes open for solutions but you need to keep reading because this plays a part later. This easily ranks up there with some of the most difficulty OS installs I've done and I've experimented with a lot of operating systems.

Stupid news:
Microsoft says it will let some new laptops ship with Win11 without a TPM chip, meaning it's really not necessary. I think anything that runs Win10 could run this, it's just MS being pushy. I labeled this stupid because while a hassle it's not bad like the next bit of news.

Bad news, or really, really stupid news
This is how I understand what I read... Microsoft will allow you to test Win11 with incompatible hardware, so long as it's close, they will even let you keep "testing" it after release but they will NOT grant you a license after it's released. Even if you have a Win10 license or pay for a Win 11 license if that system at any time errors and requires a re-install it will force you back to Win10. Permanently unless you come up on the requirements. Even if you had a working Win11 installed and had some other issue and just want to reinstall it will roll you back to Win10. Even crazier, 8th gen Intel may only meet minimum soft floor, meaning even 8th gen may on get one shot.

I'm not even a Windows user and this frustrates me, I can't imagine how annoying some of this is for some of you, particularly gamers or people who bought a new laptop within the last few years.
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Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #59 on: Mon, 28 June 2021, 17:38:18 »
So I am running w11 Pro in a VMWare box - not too shabby.  Also was able to activate it w/ my KMS activation tool :ninja:  Like what I'm seeing at the moment, but they really need to ditch some of the compatibility cr@p **cough** TPM **cough**

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D


Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #60 on: Mon, 28 June 2021, 23:17:29 »
TPM is only half the problem and actually fixable, it's the GPU that's going to be the biggest problem.

There are laptops STILL being built that use MBR formatting, so no EFI or secureboot (MSI)) and others where, while they have a TPM chip, you can't enable it (MSI and ASUS). Both are fixable with a re-install and either a bios hack (not so easy) or a USB TPM chip. What you can't do is put a different GPU on your 7th gen Intel laptop without dedicated GPU.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 29 June 2021, 16:22:34 »
So, I have a good strong Windows 10 box that I semi-retired about a year ago (summer 2020) it has not been booted up since then. At the time everything was pretty much updated to the latest and greatest versions. Assuming that I do not ever re-connect it to the interwebs, is there any reason that I can't continue using it as-is pretty much indefinitely? Everything on it worked fine at the time, files, programs, etc. I am thinking of using it as a driver for watching video files on TV and listening to music files stored on external drives.

Plenty of things that I do on the computer that do not involve being online - remember a mere quarter of a century ago when most computers didn't connect?

There is something comforting in knowing that the bad guys can never get in the door, and external storage easily survives the death of any individual computer.

TL;DR - did MS build a sunset into Windows estranged from the internet?
 
« Last Edit: Tue, 29 June 2021, 16:24:38 by fohat.digs »
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 29 June 2021, 23:10:58 »
I doubt there is any kill switch, it would bring far too many lawsuits, especially if not disclosed ahead of time.

That system can be safe and run for a loong time, IF it isn't connected to the internet or a network.
If you do anything, including download movies and watch them on it though it can be infected, either through an injected file or through a network connection from an infected box on the network, which is the most likely means of infecting it, but being it's just a movie player, it wouldn't probably be a big deal to wipe and reinstall.  You could also throw Linux on it and harden it more, Linux usually works fine for media players.
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Offline yui

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #63 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 04:27:00 »
I was ticked to see that TPM 2.0 requirement, those of us on HEDT hardware (Intel's x99/x299 or TR40/x) are not compatible w/ w11 due to this requirement.  I'm not downgrading my hardware for an OS compatibility - so they lost me for their testing pool.  I have a feeling they will eventually drop this but that would be for the more workstation/enterprise focused desktops.  I would fully cross over to Linux, but again game developers refuse to support it (a majority of them, not all).

Considering Linux (mainly a modded Ubuntu 19.10 or 18.** variant) I think I now have a use for my old 960 EVO 500GB, might just toss a copy on it and let 'er rip.
I now exclusively use linux for gaming (well everything at home really), and in the last 2 years Proton compatibility on steam has improved dramatically, especially if you stay on debian/ubuntu based distros, my opensuse has a bit more troubles with some games.
So I decided to check on motherboards, first stop, my motherboard, it's a Gigabyte 370 hosting an 8700k, so it technically qualifies according to Microsoft. Gigabyte doesn't mention TPM in the specs, Intel lists nothing in the specs, and this is a problem. If no one says it, how will you know your system actually qualifies?
all my gigabytes motherboards (ok all are AM3 or AM3+) have no TPM included but a TPM header to add a proprietary TPM board, i have not checked your board but i would not be surprised it also has a header for it.

personally i already dislike windows 10 for its lack of user freedom so 11 is going to be a huge no for me, and none of my pc have any TPM so no from MS too :) I still feel that windows peaked at 2000 and since then only went downhill, more and more locked down and regressions since, while far less positive changes has been made. if only security was not a problem :)
the thing that i do not understand is that for a few years now windows's market share has been going down, and MS just continues to double down on the practices that makes users run away, yeah they still have a few years before corporate stupids understand that all their data is sent to MS and that windows compatibility is a myth that cost days and months to it departments everywhere but once they do there is no coming back.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 07:14:36 »
I now exclusively use linux for gaming (well everything at home really), and in the last 2 years Proton compatibility on steam has improved dramatically, especially if you stay on debian/ubuntu based distros, my opensuse has a bit more troubles with some games.
Arch based distros are also HEAVILY favored by Linux gamers, Manjaro in particular.

Top three are probably Ubuntu, Pop! and Manjaro with more experienced users using the latter two. Ubuntu really only makes the list because of the numbers of people using it in general, it actually tends to fight gamers and hold them back.

all my gigabytes motherboards (ok all are AM3 or AM3+) have no TPM included but a TPM header to add a proprietary TPM board, i have not checked your board but i would not be surprised it also has a header for it.
Mine is so small it's hard to say (mini-ITX), I haven't checked bios, I had an issue where i had my GPU out and was using the Intel IGPU and it doesn't really like running dual HDMI screens (or in my case dual HDMI and a Display port) so I couldn't see anything until you got beyond the bootloader. I have my GPU back in so I need to check but I'm not loading Win11 on this regardless, especially a questionable copy of it.

BTW, many of those "proprietary dongles" are just a dedicated usb header and almost  any of the chips will work.


the thing that i do not understand is that for a few years now windows market share has been going down, and MS just continues to double down on the practices that makes users run away,
People have been foretelling the end of days for the desktop for a long time, as such MS decided they needed the mobile market, every attempt at doing it in a normal way failed so they sacrificed Windows desktop on the altar of tablets in an attempt to claw their way to a few percentage points of the mobile market share. Better a 3% stake in the future than 90% stake in the past. It hasn't really paid off, but the death of desktop computing was also greatly exaggerated.

2% market drop due to Ipad. PC industry experts - "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
2% market drop due to cell phones. PC industry experts -  "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
2% market drop due to 2in1's. PC industry experts -  "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
2% market drop due to Chromebooks. PC industry experts -  "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
And yet it keeps plodding along.

I think they've proclaimed this as often as they've claimed it was the "year of the Linux desktop", often saying it right along side each other. The funny part of that is Linux bypassed the desktop, it won the real race while everyone was looking the wrong direction. Forget the desktop, Linux took over the world.
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Offline yui

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #65 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 08:08:34 »
I think they've proclaimed this as often as they've claimed it was the "year of the Linux desktop", often saying it right along side each other. The funny part of that is Linux bypassed the desktop, it won the real race while everyone was looking the wrong direction. Forget the desktop, Linux took over the world.
still i'd love for companies to use linux for desktop, because windows is such a pain in the neck for pretty much everything that linux does half decently...
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #66 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 08:21:20 »

Better a 3% stake in the future than 90% stake in the past.


My kids make me feel like a stranger in a strange land. I have a desktop, a laptop, and a smart phone. I only use the laptop when I am away from home, it gathers dust for weeks at a time (but when I am planning to travel I fire it up and make sure that it is up to date before I go). Otherwise, my phone is mostly a phone, I will look at emails when I am waiting in line or something, but little more.

My desktop is all-important to me, and I am on it for hours every day. I have a big desk, a big tower, a big keyboard, 2 mice, 2 fairly large monitors, and 5.1 speakers. I feel like a carpenter without his tools when I try to get by without it.

My kids, on the other hand, might as well have their phones grafted onto their hands. My daughter hasn't had a desktop since she went off to college, and even then I suspect that she seldom used her laptop except for school work. My son followed a similar path, although probably with some occasional gaming. Prior to college it had been constant gaming (ie hours per day every day) for several years (with the obligatory commensurate regular hardware upgrades).

Now, they live on their phones. Even when they come to visit me, sometimes for days at a time, they never even bother to bring their laptops along. When they show me something on their screen, I often have trouble even with my reading glasses. Details? Who needs 'em? If I actually want (need?) to see something in detail, I need a minimum of 15"-20" of screen (preferably more) to feel like I can really see what's going on.

They watch theatrical movies on their phones! Is that the future?
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Offline yui

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 08:41:12 »
i kinda agree with fohat here, i just use a laptop a lot more because it is much lower power than the desktop, but i still like my desktop better and phone is for phone, gps and messages.
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #68 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 23:01:57 »
I do too but the industry always goes full panic.

I don't think phone users realize how inefficient it all is because their nose is buried so deep in the phone that they don't notice it took 20 minutes to do or find absolutely ANYTHING, phones are like a black hole for time. Those around them don't notice either because they do the same thing, meanwhile anyone around them without a phone to bury their nose in is standing around going "come on, hurry the hell up".

Phone users and pictures especially drive me bonkers, "I love how my pics are all in one place!" Great, now find the one you took 2 years ago that has your login information. "Ummm, I know it's here, I just need to find it..." Cue ten minutes of scrolling, then a message comes in, distracts them, forces then to start over and spend 15 more minutes looking for the picture. "I think I lost that when I changed phones". Meanwhile 30 minutes has passed and I already found another way.  I can't tell you how much time I've spent waiting on people to find a picture they took of an error message only to find (another 30 minutes later) that it's just an generic error message that does nothing to help diagnose the problem. I stopped waiting on the pictures years ago. For me, cell phones have actually become less useful as time went on, all the while becoming more and more capable. Devs spent all this time trying to make things work with the limited power that they never stopped to make sure it was even practical to do so in the first place, so now that the phone has the power no one notices because it's just always been garbage.


I use my desktop 99% of the time.
Phone is a phone/gps/messenger system/wifi diagnosis.
I use a laptop when I'm on the go, around the house or out and about but I usually use a 12in or smaller, and only recently moved to a 14 since I stopped doing so much traveling for work.  Finding a good sub 12in laptop with a good screen is hard to find and even fewer are well made and have even decent sound quality. There's no reason my cell phone should sound better than a laptop.

I have 6(?) tablets and owned 7 or 8(?) total, I think I bought two cheap ones and the rest just found me. I just don't even think to grab them, mostly because they don't have my logins which is mostly because they're just a pain to do anything real. I can see how they'd be handy in some situations, particularly network diagnosis,  but those situations are just rare for me, so rare they lack my account info for anything and setting them up would take longer than just grabbing the phone and laptop which are already setup and the laptop would be preferred when it came to actually fixing it anyhow. My mom on the other hand uses hers for Kindle and uses it at least as much as her desktop.
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Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #69 on: Fri, 02 July 2021, 08:59:29 »
I mainly stick to using my Desktops between work and home, and if i need to be mobile I use my laptop - phone is mainly for texts, photos for when I need to get a shot for a co-worker/fellow tech(which I access via desktop since I can sort by date to speed things up), and calls as I rarely use GPS since I map out what I need prior to leaving the house.  Only time I use the GPS is if I'm out of state in an area I've never been or I don't frequently travel to (ie Charlotte NC or Florida).
  On the camera front I use one of my DSLR's for real shots that I need to print etc, the phone one's are meh imo - small sensors can only grab soo much information in a shot.

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D


Offline samuxip

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #70 on: Fri, 09 July 2021, 03:54:09 »
Windows 11 is expected to publicly roll out later this year, and ahead of the same, Microsoft has revealed some more information on the update cycle of its new operating system. The company has stated that Windows 11 will get one new release every year. This is in contrast to Windows 10, which would get two major software releases, twice each year. The new update schedule may mean less frequent updates, but could also translate to lesser bugs as Windows gets just one update each year. The new Windows 11 updates could arrive alongside new Windows 10 updates during fall each year.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 July 2021, 03:55:56 by samuxip »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #71 on: Fri, 09 July 2021, 05:50:58 »
Soooo a service pack.
And by the second expect Win12.
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Offline aleck

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #72 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 16:00:07 »
Won't update to it (at least manually, they'll probably shove it down my throat anyway), looks like hot garbage and I just don't find it too appealing, Windows in general just isn't as good as it used to be, at least in my opinion that is. I don't even game anymore so when this computer of mine dies I'll most likely switch to a Macbook, Apple's doing some great stuff with their ARM based M1 chip, and since it's just the beginning for them, seems like a no-brainer for me down the line.

Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #73 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 17:20:31 »
So you'll switch to a platform with a similar aesthetic instead of using w11, ok. .   Personally I would just switch to Linux to save on the Apple tax and non-consumer/right-to-repair friendly Apple.

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D


Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #74 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 21:34:01 »
Darthbaggins is correct here, I can't think of any example of blatantly copying Mac than this.
Not that While I would say it;s better to use an original than a copy, architecture changes are not always easy for most people and in this case it won't be cheap to do either. Free and open source Mac software is few and far between and you can expect to spend quite a bit extra trying to match what you can do on Windows for free (or worse, what you could do on Linux).

That said, the M1 macs are probably one of the best general computing laptops you can buy. Not sure I'd buy one (wait for m2), but they are pretty nice.
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Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #75 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 22:24:00 »

People have been foretelling the end of days for the desktop for a long time, as such MS decided they needed the mobile market, every attempt at doing it in a normal way failed so they sacrificed Windows desktop on the altar of tablets in an attempt to claw their way to a few percentage points of the mobile market share. Better a 3% stake in the future than 90% stake in the past. It hasn't really paid off, but the death of desktop computing was also greatly exaggerated.

2% market drop due to Ipad. PC industry experts - "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
2% market drop due to cell phones. PC industry experts -  "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
2% market drop due to 2in1's. PC industry experts -  "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
2% market drop due to Chromebooks. PC industry experts -  "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
And yet it keeps plodding along.

Microsoft, moving away from desktop computing because of fear and opportunism, deserved to pay a financial price. Especially given the methods they used.

Despite scorning the desktop userbase that made them, desktop hasn't gone away, and the pandemic has created a resurgence for personal computing.

If they had had the courage to be who they are, supporting and enhancing desktop operations and OS the past decade, they could be reaping more from this harvest.

Desktop means - easy access to many applications at once, unified copy/paste/clip/conversion functions across the whole system and available to user, dedicated keyboard + mouse smallUI/many choice interactions, deep nested systems, and use of powerful peripherals from actual keyboard, high-resolution pointing device, and huge 4K+ monitor that can display much more information than any phone.

It's sad to see that while keyboards have made a huge comeback [since there's no replacing desktop productivity + pc gaming], Microsoft's lack of leadership in desktop and the rush to convergence has meant no corresponding organized push to make use of huge PC monitors at huge DPI to create unprecedented multitasking + HIDPI text rendering experiences. Desktop peaked around 2006 as the core of the computing experience, and since then has fragmented into many devices. It's anarchy, and desktop needs to be restored to its rightful place. [But in a more modern context integrated with the mobile devices.]

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 906
Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #76 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 22:30:48 »
I guess what I mean is, desktop should not have been neglected just because Microsoft wanted to chase market share in the growing sector.

Desktop should be thriving, not just plodding along. Lack of leadership in this area has meant that although mobiles were allowed to take advantage of technological developments [including HIDPI] starting after 2010 or so, this is precisely when Microsoft desktops began to really stagnate. Assumption was standard DPI for years and years, also using Microsoft's inferior post-XP font rendering.

You see glimpses of what could be with things like the Surface Studio [3:2 ratio high-DPI Windows-friendly display] and its interesting pointing device, the whole package is something no phone could do. It takes advantage and even tries to drive developments. Such a limited implementation and effort, though, while Microsoft burned though countless wads of cash chasing mobile market share and nearly destroying Windows to do so.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #77 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 04:52:31 »
Depends.
Who's to stay MS hasn't reaped any benefit or that it isn't still to come? Clearly they expected it to translate into phone sales but look at Surface tablet sales and image as being a Mac competitor. Win10 ushered in a new income source by selling ads and data, and today Chrome is making huge inroads on Chrome and Firefox, that could allow them to make a push into the cell phone browser space. Was this the intention, no, but it all came from a shift in perspective at the company that was kicked of by going after the mobile market.

One thing I stressed when Windows phone failed is this is not Blackberry or Palm, Microsoft is not in the same boat, they have a TON of investments and a massively insane amount of liquid capital and power. Blackberry can't just go buy up a competitor, MS can. It's the same with Intel, both can just sit around, hire experts and hedge their bets 5-10 years in the future.


As for them slacking, that's what MS, and frankly pretty much EVERY U.S. company does, it's cheaper to legislate than to innovate. When you have a ton of money and total market dominance you can just sit on your laurels and watch the money roll in and when you're down you just buy your way back. If you really dig into the history of Microsoft you'll learn that for their size and market share they're really are not an innovative company at all. What they can't buy they sue you into the ground then buy you for pennies on the dollar or they just copy you and if you complain then sue you into oblivion or force you into capitulation. Microsoft's has operated this way from the start.
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Offline yui

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #78 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 08:18:49 »
So you'll switch to a platform with a similar aesthetic instead of using w11, ok. .   Personally I would just switch to Linux to save on the Apple tax and non-consumer/right-to-repair friendly Apple.
won't be upgrading either, but then i already did the jump mostly with 10 to linux, only my work pc is on 10, and it does not have any TPM, or DirectX12 video card, so it will not upgrade hopefully
i kinda wish to see others jump in apple's tracks and start making alternative architecture CPU that are actually powerful, be it POWER, RISC-V or ARM (kinda rather it be RISC or POWER, with the whole nVidia thing) and get some powerful yet efficient linux pc, but not having to get apple tax.
As for them slacking, that's what MS, and frankly pretty much EVERY U.S. company does, it's cheaper to legislate than to innovate. When you have a ton of money and total market dominance you can just sit on your laurels and watch the money roll in and when you're down you just buy your way back. If you really dig into the history of Microsoft you'll learn that for their size and market share they're really are not an innovative company at all. What they can't buy they sue you into the ground then buy you for pennies on the dollar or they just copy you and if you complain then sue you into oblivion or force you into capitulation. Microsoft's has operated this way from the start.
and yeah as far as i learnt MS and Apple's history are ones of stolen innovations and back stabbing, Gates may be a philanthropist now but he got his fortune lying and stealing.
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #79 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 21:52:43 »
Gates may be a philanthropist now but he got his fortune lying and stealing.
You don't get that wealthy without exploiting people.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #80 on: Tue, 13 July 2021, 08:42:24 »

it's cheaper to legislate than to innovate.


Tangental but relevant - Ronald Reagan succeeded (on behalf of his billionaire masters) in scuttling the understanding that capitalism depends on appropriate regulation to survive long-term and prevent moneyed interests from eroding the common good.

For over 40 years I have been scratching my head in disbelief that he was able to convince millions of people that "tha gub'ment" did not have the best interest of the people at heart but yet "Big Business" did.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #81 on: Sat, 04 September 2021, 22:33:59 »
Ads in Win 11 are now crashing the taskbar and start menu.
Good job Microsoft!

How does an ad even crash them?
I guess it's easy when it's so integrated to stop people from stopping them. How much longer will you be able opt out of them, Bing already runs (two instances of Edge) in the taskbar unless you disable it.



Someone on Slashdot asked why MS is going down this road knowing it's worse for customers.
Because they can. You didn't leave when 8 came out, or 8.1 or 10, why would you leave now? They know they have you and you aren't going anywhere. "I can go to Mac!" Sure, pal, you go and buy a whole new computer,  just to change OS, don't forget all your other software licenses that may not carry over.  And what will you do with that spare computer? Let your kids use it? Did they actually lose a customer or did you just indoctrinate your kid into that being normal? You going to convert to Linux? You haven't yet.

They have the business sales, which is the bread and butter and pretty much every PC ships with Windows already.  Individual sales are not where they make money, if you think they do, go look at the number of reviews for Windows licenses vs processor sales on Newegg. A single AMD processor alone will have more reviews than Windows 10 which is years older, clearly few are actually buying licenses, meaning there's a whole lot of people with either old licenses, running Linux or using unlicensed or pirated copies. We know it's not Linux. They know they have nothing to fear of you leaving.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #82 on: Sun, 05 September 2021, 10:14:45 »
I guess it is time to make the jump to Mint Cinnamon. I have been dabbling with Linux for well over a decade but it has always been secondary to Windows (for multiple reasons).

But now I am basically retired and don't need to concern myself with interacting with "the office" any more. My current Windows is 10 version 21H1 and so I have probably gotten pretty close to 11 already. But I ignore Edge and other "cloud" stuff as much as possible, and keep all my data on local drives.

I like Mint Cinnamon very well (after a few years of straight Ubuntu), and there used to be LTS versions every couple of years - so that was approximately my update interval. Do you recommend climbing the update ladder relatively more often or less often?
 
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Offline StickyBlueJuice

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #83 on: Sun, 05 September 2021, 11:55:53 »
Ads in Win 11 are now crashing the taskbar and start menu.
Good job Microsoft!
Classic!

I guess it is time to make the jump to Mint Cinnamon. I have been dabbling with Linux for well over a decade but it has always been secondary to Windows (for multiple reasons).
 
I made the jump to Pop!_OS a couple months back and I haven't looked back.
There's nothing this beauty won't run.
I need Microsoft Teams for work, but damn it if they didn't have a preview version in their shop. Functions super so far for me.
Not all games run equally well. And I ran into a problem the other day. Bought DOOM Eternal, but the driver version it recommends isn't out for Linux yet.
So a few minor annoyances so far, compared to a lifetime of irritations over HAVING to use this damned Windows OS, I will gladly take that.
Not saying this is what you do with your OS, I was just giving my perspective on Linux, and where it's at.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #84 on: Sun, 05 September 2021, 23:20:24 »
I guess it is time to make the jump to Mint Cinnamon. I have been dabbling with Linux for well over a decade but it has always been secondary to Windows (for multiple reasons).

But now I am basically retired and don't need to concern myself with interacting with "the office" any more. My current Windows is 10 version 21H1 and so I have probably gotten pretty close to 11 already. But I ignore Edge and other "cloud" stuff as much as possible, and keep all my data on local drives.

I like Mint Cinnamon very well (after a few years of straight Ubuntu), and there used to be LTS versions every couple of years - so that was approximately my update interval. Do you recommend climbing the update ladder relatively more often or less often?
Mint is great for learning but the upgrade path SUCKS.

Seriously, I don't understand how they can make such a great distro but flub the update process so badly. They recently started pushing automatic updates because people were not updating, we stopped updating because they screwed them up so bad. I tried upgrading from 18 to 19 and 19 to 20 on 4 different systems, 2 were fresh installs and it failed on every one of them. Cinnamon and to a lesser degree Gnome also has issues with dual screens

While I think Mint is a great start I'd recommend one of 3 distros once you have the hang of it...
Ubuntu - Ignore the hate, it's a good distro for new and old users, gaming however is bad.
Pop! - Great distro, great desktop tweaks, MUCH better than Ubuntu if you game yet retains Ubuntu compatibility.
Manjaro - Arch based, which means you can use the AUR which gives it more available software than Ubuntu PPAs. It's a bit more raw, but that's not always a bad thing.

Ubuntu and Pop! handle upgrades/updates better than Mint, which like I said is TERRIBLE. Manjaro you never do a distro update, it just rolls along constantly evolving, this is why I ended up in the Arch branch after Mint flubbed so bad. It never goes out of date. You don't need to worry about support ending or this or that not being supported by your version, it's all one version, it just updates as it goes along. It's not without an occasional hiccup and the closer you get to pure Arch the more problems it brings but Manjaro deals with it pretty well and it's rare anything goes really wrong.

Ubuntu holds back GPU and WINE updates (A LOT) and makes it a chore to install newer versions plus 32bit support, it's so bad people think they do it on purpose to dissuade you from doing it, making gaming a hassle on it. Pop! on the other hand embraces it, same with Manjaro, but it's not consistent with what they work with, one will do X game better than Y and the other will do Y better than X. Both however seem to be the choice for gamers when you look at the Proton database.

Me, I'd go with Manjaro but I can totally get the love for Pop! If you like tinkering with your OS a little to get more out of it, go with Manjaro (still less tweaking than with Windows), if you just want to click a few buttons and not mess with it, go with Pop! In either case, getting something working can sometimes be a bit of a hassle but once you do the OS tends to fade away into the background, AS IT SHOULD.  That was something I was kind of surprised with Windows lately, something is ALWAYS vying for your attention, either a program wanting permissions, wanting to be default or wanting an update. It's constant. Mac has gone a similar route but to nowhere near the degree Windows does. For as much hands off as they are supposed to be they sure do need a lot of hand holding.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #85 on: Mon, 06 September 2021, 13:52:12 »

getting something working can sometimes be a bit of a hassle but once you do the OS tends to fade away into the background, AS IT SHOULD. 


Thank you for you thoughtful and detailed response.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I am not at all concerned about some of the nuisances that you listed. I do not game (beyond some occasional mindless pastimes like Solitaire that can hardly be considered to be in the same universe as "Gaming") so that is off the table entirely. I like good pictures and good sound but not beyond what mid-to-slightly-upper-level consumer gear provides.

And when I "upgrade" every couple of years or so, I back up all of my data and do a full fresh clean re-install of OS and programs, sometimes/usually to a new hard drive. As far as small intermediate steps I usually accept them when they are offered, but I don't think that is what you are talking about when you say "upgrade" ....

Otherwise I am not a power user and rarely go "under the hood" to tinker around beyond occasionally looking for arcane installation for peripherals or hardware that I have had for a while but don't want to replace. "Barely scratching the surface" is probably as far as I ever go.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #86 on: Mon, 06 September 2021, 21:29:37 »
Thank you for you thoughtful and detailed response.

Otherwise I am not a power user and rarely go "under the hood" to tinker around beyond occasionally looking for arcane installation for peripherals or hardware that I have had for a while but don't want to replace. "Barely scratching the surface" is probably as far as I ever go.
You're welcome.
Since you're used to it and making a major change, I'd stick with a fresh install of Mint for now, it will make the transition easier, as you get more comfortable then start looking at other distros.

It takes a bit to really break away from Windows and you will do a lot more learning than you think those first few months. Using it occasionally or as a second OS really is not the same as using it and it alone, you always have an easy out. Don't give up! The longer you go the more comfortable you get  and the happier you will likely be that you stuck it out. It's been years, I still occasionally wonder from time to time if the fight is worth the hassle (usually with games) but the longer you're gone from it the worse Windows looks when you return. When you first start you compare everything to Windows and since you're used to it and comfortable (because you've used it for years) it's going to mostly be bad comparisons. Why doesn't Linux do it this way, not that, grrrr... You need to reach a point where you start seeing where Linux gets it right and Windows gets it wrong and it takes time. Stick it out, find those bright spots, once you reach that point you will never look at Windows the same. I'm not saying you won't ever get the urge to fall back to Windows again, face it, Windows is easy not just because of familiarity but also because it's the dominant OS, but it does get easier. (note: Steam is really making strides to make running Windows programs even easier, not just games but everything, which will eliminate much of the dominance issue)


The following is just a bit more info for you.
Mint is now going to push people more for updates and it includes normal updates as well as version updates (i.E. Mint 20 to Mint 21), it's the latter that's the problem. If you do long term support it's less often however it's not just the base system they slow updates for, it's everything. For example you couldn't get VLC 3.0 on Mint 19 despite coming out around the same time, they never tested or verified it so it never went in the repo. Firefox and other software updates can also lag far behind, it's how they get stability but sometimes those new features are needed or at least really handy. You may not have liked the Firefox changes but VLC 3.0 brought some changes to sorting and networking that were beneficial and needed by some. There are workarounds but you have to do the whole PPA thing.

Your fresh install approach is good, but it's a Windows holdover, it's not really needed in Linux which has ways to actually combat the tons of worthless garbage that collects, unlike Windows. Sure if you remove something an old config file may remain but it's doing nothing and takes little space but it's not like Windows where the registry never forgets and the system is always looking and verifying things. It's also in a place where you can probably find and delete it if you wanted (.config or .local in your home directory, viewable by hitting ctrl-h or a setting for the file manager) rather than deep within one of several hidden subfolders and where the only way to see it is an obscure setting elsewhere in the OS and still not removing registry entries.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #87 on: Tue, 07 September 2021, 08:35:10 »

version updates (i.E. Mint 20 to Mint 21), it's the latter that's the problem.

If you do long term support it's less often


I don't understand because they make it look/seem like all the recent versions are LTS these days.

And also, my most recent install is from 2021 but it is still called "20.2" what is that about? Will there be an actual "21" ?

 
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #88 on: Tue, 07 September 2021, 22:11:24 »
Mint numbers are not related to year, it just happened to line up in 2020, there will be a version 21 and when it comes they will flub the update just like they always do.
If you're willing to wipe and re-install, good, it's the only way to be certain it will work,  but why is it that everyone else can do this, including Ubuntu which Mint is based on (as well as every other one based on it).

Again, this is why no one was updating older versions, now they're annoyed because no one is updating the older versions.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #89 on: Tue, 07 September 2021, 22:19:08 »

Mint numbers are not related to year, it just happened to line up in 2020


Oh, yeah, right, I was remembering Ubuntu and the x.4 and x.10 schedule.

Unless I opt in for automatic upgrades, I can still do it in my own time, I hope and assume.
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