Realforce Sound Mod

[skinnycow]

I use a Realforce 86U at home (variable weighted keys) and love it - it's my favorite keyboard.

My home "office" unfortunately is near where our baby sleeps, and even though the 86U is fairly quiet, it's still louder than most traditional keyboards, so I was thinking of doing a modification on it that will make it even quieter.

I notice that 90% of the sound the keys make comes from the motion of the key springing back up to its unpressed position after being pressed. It's hard to explain, but it's a kind of "looseness" in the plastic keycap as it fits inside the switch cylinder.

My idea was to put a thin piece of tape (a type of tape that has some texture/friction) around the post of the keycap, then reinsert the keycap post into the switch cylinder. I thought it was a brilliant idea, but it didn't work. At all. The key sounded just the same.

Has anyone tried this kind of modification on a Topre switch and had any success?

Short of super-gluing the keycap to the cylinder, I can't think of a way to make the keys less loose and prone to making that plastic sound effect when bouncing back up into position. I actually thought of gluing them (which I think would work since the keycap post sits stationary inside the switch cylinder and they both move down together as one unit). Kind of a drastic and permanent mod though...

[Ghostpixel]

Well there are lots of diffrent kinds of glues you can use. Might be one kind that could be removed later somehow. It is dangerous. I would love to see someone do this though since i would love to make my realforce into a "ghetto silent" as well ^^.

[Korbin]

If you are ok with getting a second board you always have the option of picking up the "silent" version of the board (http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se170s). I have one and it's more quiet than traditional boards. If you glue the keycaps not only it might not work but you won't be able to pull the caps off to clean under them or change the keycaps.

[islisis]

i don't have a topre board, but for non-permanent method how about hot glue?

[AKIMbO]

The sound you are hearing isn't from the keycap.  It's coming from the plastic switch shaft hitting the bottom of plate of the switch when the key is returning after being actuated.  Here's a link to how to do the silencing mod at home.  Good luck modding!

[tp4tissue]

the cheap $5 rubber domes are more silent than ANY mechanical keyboards out there..

They have thin domes AND light caps.... AND they feel like "topre" if you're into that sort of thing.

OR

you can spend a significant amount of time on modding, not against it, but man that looks tedious you got 86 more keys to go.

[Rule16]

the cheap $5 rubber domes are more silent than ANY mechanical keyboards out there..

They have thin domes AND light caps.... AND they feel like "topre" if you're into that sort of thing.

OR

you can spend a significant amount of time on modding, not against it, but man that looks tedious you got 86 more keys to go.

This is why people don't like you.

[tp4tissue]

the cheap $5 rubber domes are more silent than ANY mechanical keyboards out there..

They have thin domes AND light caps.... AND they feel like "topre" if you're into that sort of thing.

OR

you can spend a significant amount of time on modding, not against it, but man that looks tedious you got 86 more keys to go.

This is why people don't like you.

Like I said, I'm not trying to diminish your "mod"   but the same guy that needs a power drill for a single screw from the garage 40feet away, when he could use a screw driver 5 feet away..

This is the situation of modding 87 keys..

[skinnycow]

Oh, the time spent on modding isn't a concern, I'm into that kind of thing (why else would I be on this site? Ha).

Thanks for the useful suggestions. I like islisis's hot-glue idea since I could test if my theory is right without permanently altering the board. And thanks to AKIMbO for the useful link and information about the switch cylinder itself being a source of noise ("coming from the plastic switch shaft hitting the bottom of plate of the switch when the key is returning after being actuate").

The problem with the 86U can be heard if you run your hand lightly over all the keycaps without pressing down on them. The keycaps themselves make a lot of noise. They sound like they are not snugly held in place by the switch cylinder, that there's a degree of "play" on each keycap. I could be totally wrong about the source of this sound, which I was hoping the glue would help settle.

[tp4tissue]

Oh, the time spent on modding isn't a concern, I'm into that kind of thing (why else would I be on this site? Ha).

Thanks for the useful suggestions. I like islisis's hot-glue idea since I could test if my theory is right without permanently altering the board. And thanks to AKIMbO for the useful link and information about the switch cylinder itself being a source of noise ("coming from the plastic switch shaft hitting the bottom of plate of the switch when the key is returning after being actuate").

The problem with the 86U can be heard if you run your hand lightly over all the keycaps without pressing down on them. The keycaps themselves make a lot of noise. They sound like they are not snugly held in place by the switch cylinder, that there's a degree of "play" on each keycap. I could be totally wrong about the source of this sound, which I was hoping the glue would help settle.

the Give that they design into the shaft is the result the tolerance to which the plastic could be molded. if they made it any more snug, some keys would seize up completely and not move.

careful with hot glue, make sure you're using the expensive kind.. the cheap kind doesn't harden as well, and is "gummy"

[MJ45]

The sound you are hearing isn't from the keycap.  It's coming from the plastic switch shaft hitting the bottom of plate of the switch when the key is returning after being actuated.  Here's a link to how to do the silencing mod at home.  Good luck modding!

Oh, the time spent on modding isn't a concern, I'm into that kind of thing (why else would I be on this site? Ha).

Thanks for the useful suggestions. I like islisis's hot-glue idea since I could test if my theory is right without permanently altering the board. And thanks to AKIMbO for the useful link and information about the switch cylinder itself being a source of noise ("coming from the plastic switch shaft hitting the bottom of plate of the switch when the key is returning after being actuate").

The problem with the 86U can be heard if you run your hand lightly over all the keycaps without pressing down on them. The keycaps themselves make a lot of noise. They sound like they are not snugly held in place by the switch cylinder, that there's a degree of "play" on each keycap. I could be totally wrong about the source of this sound, which I was hoping the glue would help settle.

I also think some noise could come from looser keycaps. If you look at the cap stem the split in center is slightly narrower on the end than farther up inside, so to index the cap and hold it in the plunger. On HHKB I put a red ESC key that was very tighter than the standard key. Some caps may have a slight looser fit. When I changed my black caps to a white & grey set they fit tighter in the switches plunger and seem quieter.

[___q]

I followed exactly this http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40582 method to silence an 87U to use at work, and it mostly worked great.  Cutting little disks of rubber is a bit of a pain, though.

The only complexity is that left control key on the 87U is mounted on a different type of "plunger" (if that's the right term) than the rest of the keys, and you can't just put a ring of rubber on it -- it just jams up the mechanism.

I'm an emacs user (so I hit that left control key all the time), so I desoldered the LED on the left control  and swapped the mechanisms for the left and right control keys.  The square hole in the plate for the left ctrl's mechanism is very slightly smaller than the rest of the keys, so some creative filing was required.

That being said, the keyboard works great now (it's -much- quieter than the other 87U I use at home) And, if you don't hate that awful left control making noise, you can just not mod that specific key.


EDIT:: I would have bought a silenced model in the first place, but I wanted the full 55g model (which is amazing, imo).

[sth]

I followed exactly this http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40582 method to silence an 87U to use at work, and it mostly worked great.  Cutting little disks of rubber is a bit of a pain, though.

The only complexity is that left control key on the 87U is mounted on a different type of "plunger" (if that's the right term) than the rest of the keys, and you can't just put a ring of rubber on it -- it just jams up the mechanism.

I'm an emacs user (so I hit that left control key all the time), so I desoldered the LED on the left control  and swapped the mechanisms for the left and right control keys.  The square hole in the plate for the left ctrl's mechanism is very slightly smaller than the rest of the keys, so some creative filing was required.

That being said, the keyboard works great now (it's -much- quieter than the other 87U I use at home) And, if you don't hate that awful left control making noise, you can just not mod that specific key.

not switching ctrl and caps? shaaaaaaaaaaame

[___q]

I followed exactly this http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40582 method to silence an 87U to use at work, and it mostly worked great.  Cutting little disks of rubber is a bit of a pain, though.

The only complexity is that left control key on the 87U is mounted on a different type of "plunger" (if that's the right term) than the rest of the keys, and you can't just put a ring of rubber on it -- it just jams up the mechanism.

I'm an emacs user (so I hit that left control key all the time), so I desoldered the LED on the left control  and swapped the mechanisms for the left and right control keys.  The square hole in the plate for the left ctrl's mechanism is very slightly smaller than the rest of the keys, so some creative filing was required.

That being said, the keyboard works great now (it's -much- quieter than the other 87U I use at home) And, if you don't hate that awful left control making noise, you can just not mod that specific key.

not switching ctrl and caps? shaaaaaaaaaaame

I've never been able to get used to swapping ctrl and caps lock, for some reason I tried it for a month or so a while back, and it just annoyed me the whole time.

[skinnycow]

I decided to just go for it with the hot glue gun.

I did the function keys F9 through F12. I removed the four keycaps, warmed up the glue gun, then squeezed a sizeable drop of glue directly into each switch cylinder.


While I did this a small voice in the back of my mind was saying, ‘you’ve finally lost it.”

I quickly replaced each keycap after filling each cylinder with glue. I let the keys sit there a while to allow the glue to harden.

So, the result? I wish I could proudly say my theory was right all along, but it turns out the glue had no discernible effect whatsoever. You can still hear the plastic rattling by running your fingers just over the keycaps, and to my dismay I found no difference at all between the regular and the modded keys.

[sth]

yes because like everybody else has mentioned the cylinder itself is the part that rattles

[OwnageHN]

While I did this a small voice in the back of my mind was saying, ‘you’ve finally lost it.”

HAHAHA

[skinnycow]

On a good note, it was surprisingly easy to get the glue out of the cylinders and keycaps. I could tell by looking at how the glue dried it adhered right where I wanted it to, binding the notch in the keycap to the narrow guide posts on the sides of the switch cylinder.



So either the glue wasn't enough to keep the keycap solidly in place, or I'm wrong about the source of what's making the sound.

[khaangaaroo]

So either the glue wasn't enough to keep the keycap solidly in place, or I'm wrong about the source of what's making the sound.

I'm usually not a judgmental person. (I leave that to tp4tissue.) But there is no "so either" in the source of the sound. How many people have to tell you you're wrong before you listen? We're just trying to be helpful here. It's your board, and you can do what you want to it. But I'll tell you again: The key caps snap into place, it does not rattle. The plunger/shaft is what rattles and makes the clack sound on the upstroke.

[khaangaaroo]

[double post]

[Rule16]

If it were the keycaps that were the issue all you would have to do is touch the key cap and it rattle.... Like what happens when you touch the far end of a costar stab.

[skinnycow]

If it were the keycaps that were the issue all you would have to do is touch the key cap and it rattle

Right! that's exactly what I'm trying to quiet, thanks Rule16 for clarifying - the keycaps themselves make a plastic rattling sound just by touching them. I'm sure the cylinder/shaft also makes sound on the upstroke, but I see that as a separate issue. I'm talking about the sounds the keycaps make when lightly touching them, not depressing the key itself.

[Michael]

the keycaps themselves make a plastic rattling sound just by touching them

How many times do you need to be wrong before you listen?

[khaangaaroo]

I think what Rule16 is trying to point out to you, Cow dude, is that the sound you get from key cap rattle is similar to sound you get when tapping on the very end of a space bar. Unless all your keys sound like your space bar, you do not have a key rattle problem.

[Rule16]

I think what Rule16 is trying to point out to you, Cow dude, is that the sound you get from key cap rattle is similar to sound you get when tapping on the very end of a space bar. Unless all your keys sound like your space bar, you do not have a key rattle problem.

This is exactly what I was trying to say, and it this was the issue, then the hotglue would have fixed it.

[skinnycow]

Unless all your keys sound like your space bar, you do not have a key rattle problem.

That's actually a great way to describe it, that same sound as the edges of the space bar. All the keys make that same rattle noise. Have you typed on an 86U? It's difficult to describe.

It's possible the hot glue just didn't keep the keycap stationary enough, but maybe it's something else. One thing that occurred to me is that perhaps the keycap does in fact fit snugly in the cylinder, but the cylinder itself doesn't make a very snug fit with the hole it moves down through. So even just touching the keycap lightly would cause an audible click of the cylinder against the hole.

Anyone think this might be a contributing factor?

[skinnycow]

Here's a picture of the cylinder on an 87U Quiet model (87USW) - it's a different color than the 86U (the 87 is purple, the 86 is black), but I wonder if part of the "quiet" design of the 87U includes a slightly wider cylinder that makes a snugger fit with the hole it slides through. I tried to draw a yellow circle on the outside part of the cylinder to show the area I'm talking about.



Anyone know more about the design improvements the 87U Quiet model employed?

[sth]

dude take a keycap off and wiggle the ****in cylinder if you don't believe that's where the rattle comes from.

it has been suggessted that the quiet cylinders are slightly snugger but i cant remember if that's been measured or not.

[Michael]

It has nothing to do with the key caps. If your key cap is what is rattling, then it's a broken key cap, or the stem is defective in some way. The rattling happens simply from the slider moving inside of the housing. Adding o-rings, or like o2dazone's washer mod will mostly remove that rattle. The tolerances are pretty tight, despite the rattle sound. Original topre key caps are meant to snap in very snug, removing the chance of them being the culprit.


On the silenced versions, the design of the slider differs. If you look at the mods posted in previous comments, you can see this.

[AKIMbO]

I feel like we are all being massively trolled right now.

[khaangaaroo]

I feel like we are all being massively trolled right now.

Me too! That's why I stopped replying...haha

[skinnycow]

it has been suggested that the quiet cylinders are slightly snugger but i cant remember if that's been measured or not.

I thought of a way I could test (roughly) how much of the rattle sound is coming from the space between the cylinder and the hole it fits through, in the 86U: by placing a small square of paper (folded once or twice) and wedging it between the cylinder and the hole edge (basically preventing the cylinder from moving at all, either up down or side to side).

I could do this on a couple of keys and see if it has any effect on the keycap rattle sound (the test will be just running my fingers lightly over the keycaps and listening how much chatter they produce).

[Gupgup]

I'm not sure if you've seen the previous posts, but it appears the rattling has nothing to do with the keycaps..


Gupgup

[tp4tissue]

You jerk guys are bringing emotions into this... This is a technical issue. 


on a side note, if you REALLY REALLY want to make it snugger, you can apply heat to the Inner surface, while cooling the outer surface of the plunger

the heat will soften the inside, while the outside rim reduces slightly in contraction..

This is risky though

I've done it with Larger plastic pipes,, these plungers are smaller, but the principle is Sound...