Veganism, what say you ?

[tp4tissue]

Did you know that 96% of vegans use Windows 98?

Ms window.. we think eating veggies is good..  but the vegan agenda (the actual vegans)  are more nutzo..

[paicrai]

wow did you seriously just insult the OS you pretend to praise

[intelli78]

If choice is "an illusion," then there is no NEED of conversation. Whether there "is" is beside the point.

However, there is conversation... why?

Because choice is not inherently illusory.

It's just that the systems in place limit the options from which we may select. Choosing the best of 3 options (or least-bad thereof), when the preferred nth+ option is not available, does not equate to "choice illusion." It's merely constrained by factors beyond the control of the chooser.

I think he meant choice is an illusion in the sense of physical determinism, not in the sense of socio-political or economic constraints...

[ferociousfingerings]

I am not convinced on the ethics. because ultimately choice is an illusion...

False.

I am not convinced on the ethics. because ultimately choice is an illusion, and without choice there can be no blame, therefore no true ethics..

OK, if you believe that, then there is no conversation at all needed on veganism... 

there absolutely is conversation on it..  If we do switch more towards plant based nutrition.. we could spend less time growing food, or grow less of it.. more time playing Starcraft ...

If choice is "an illusion," then there is no NEED of conversation. Whether there "is" is beside the point.

However, there is conversation... why?

Because choice is not inherently illusory.

It's just that the systems in place limit the options from which we may select. Choosing the best of 3 options (or least-bad thereof), when the preferred nth+ option is not available, does not equate to "choice illusion." It's merely constrained by factors beyond the control of the chooser.


Edit: my stance on this is as such: the animal has already been killed. It would be a shame to waste that life by refusing to utilize whatever can be usefully derived from it. Unless you can get EVERYONE to refuse, the animals will continue being bred to die for whatever useful purpose the currently established businesses intend to continue profiting from. If you can stop the animal killing businesses, then you'll have an argument.

hahah..

You see,  Choice is an illusion because  perfect information exists.. and there is an Origin to all that exists.. so all events are cascading, and thus could not have happened any other way.


CHOICE, is part of Human comprehension which floats above actuality in "Imperfect" informational state..

Because we are ourselves only part of the whole solution, relative to us, there is the perception of choice due to our lack of complete information..

If we knew all there is to know about one coming event perfectly, then we could say that event will occur..    The information to reach such a conclusion exist, because the precedent universe exists.


THUS .. choice is an illusion..   and our conversation is only due to the fact that we do not possess complete information..

That however does not alter the fact that completeness exists..

Nope. Choice and Prediction are two different things.

[ferociousfingerings]

If choice is "an illusion," then there is no NEED of conversation. Whether there "is" is beside the point.

However, there is conversation... why?

Because choice is not inherently illusory.

It's just that the systems in place limit the options from which we may select. Choosing the best of 3 options (or least-bad thereof), when the preferred nth+ option is not available, does not equate to "choice illusion." It's merely constrained by factors beyond the control of the chooser.

I think he meant choice is an illusion in the sense of physical determinism, not in the sense of socio-political or economic constraints...

I will grant that some perception of choice is indeed illusory... but to state it absolutely, as "choice is illusion," is not correct.

Gotta watch those absolutes.

[tp4tissue]

If choice is "an illusion," then there is no NEED of conversation. Whether there "is" is beside the point.

However, there is conversation... why?

Because choice is not inherently illusory.

It's just that the systems in place limit the options from which we may select. Choosing the best of 3 options (or least-bad thereof), when the preferred nth+ option is not available, does not equate to "choice illusion." It's merely constrained by factors beyond the control of the chooser.

I think he meant choice is an illusion in the sense of physical determinism, not in the sense of socio-political or economic constraints...

I will grant that some perception of choice is indeed illusory... but to state it absolutely, as "choice is illusion," is not correct.

Gotta watch those absolutes.

No, it CAN be stated absolutely..

because all choice  and perception of it,  is in a system smaller than the whole..

Which means, no matter how complex it becomes, it will always be approximate..


THUS.. choice will always be illusory and incomplete..  Imcomplete information is the only place where choice is relevant..

because upon complete information, there is no selection, there is only absolute certainty

[intelli78]

I am not knowledgeable about that whole debate... but even if it were true that our thought patterns etc are all based on external physics (which they might well be, like I said, don't know), you really have to put that aside before discussing ethics

[tp4tissue]

I am not knowledgeable about that whole debate... but even if it were true that our thought patterns etc are all based on external physics (which they might well be, like I said, don't know), you really have to put that aside before discussing ethics

ethics is a shallow approximation for optimal behavior..  It has served us well, and perhaps there are elements of it, that will serve us well in the future..

But, My point is simply we can not put too much stock in this... because it is NOT REAL and for many people VERY much an Emotionally charged state of perception..


There is our reptilian brain, which handles sex and breathing,  our mid brain which handles some memory  and  emotions..

THEN there's our Neo-cortex.. which handles LOGIC and information integration..   it is also the LATEST to have evolved..   It is our greatest asset..  the only reason we are what we are today is due to the ability of the Neo-cortex to REIN in emotionally charged behavior...

[intelli78]

Right, you have already described your system of post-ethics, which is just utilitarianism. As I pointed out, that system underlies almost all political decisions we face today. It's nothing new, contrary to what you seem to think. JSM thought of that **** hundreds of years ago. However, I don't think it is the panacea you seem to... It is a very imperfect system itself.

I agree that vegans, among others, are frequently misled by emotions and social popularity. No doubt. But I am still waiting for you to provide a coherent defense of why veganism should be 100% a question of nutrition and economics and totally disregard animal suffering. That is your position, right?

[tp4tissue]

Right, you have already described your system of post-ethics, which is just utilitarianism. As I pointed out, that system underlies almost all political decisions we face today. It's nothing new, contrary to what you seem to think. JSM thought of that **** hundreds of years ago. However, I don't think it is the panacea you seem to... It is a very imperfect system itself.

I agree that vegans, among others, are frequently misled by emotions and social popularity. No doubt. But I am still waiting for you to provide a coherent defense of why veganism should be 100% a question of nutrition and economics and totally disregard animal suffering. That is your position, right?

We eat   because of nutrition and economics..   we don't Eat to make animals suffer..

You solve nutrition and economics..  the suffering ends.. regardless of how cute or uncute they are.


what's so hard to understand about this??

How the animals feel is irrelevant.. how much pain they're in makes no difference.

[IvanIvanovich]

So if no one ate meat we wouldn't need pig farms, cattle ranchers, fish farms etc, etc.... Right?

I mean there is no sense in having all these animals if we can't eat them.

Pig farmers need to pig farm. Cattle ranchers need to cattle ranch. Fish farmers need to fish farm.

Try convincing them they don't need to do what they do to make their living. I'll wait.

This would probably be much easier than you think. The vast majority of meat production is ran by some huge corporations not little family farms. All that would need to happen is vat grown meat be approved for human consumption and for that process to be cheaper than actually raising animals which it surely would be. Once those 2 things happen I am sure they will start making that shift anyway. Who wants to raise animals if it is less efficient and less profitable?

[Malphas]

So if no one ate meat we wouldn't need pig farms, cattle ranchers, fish farms etc, etc.... Right?

I mean there is no sense in having all these animals if we can't eat them.

That would presumably be the ultimate pipe-dream of veganism, yes.

As someone who consumes low amounts of meat (less than 5lbs per month) I have a different dream:

Everyone refuses to buy meat from grocery stores and instead buys from trusted farm co-ops.

Failing that - pick up a fishing pole or go hunting.

Even on what you consider to be a low amount, if the world population was to eat like that you'd run out of animals and agricultural land almost overnight. The reasons we can eat as much meat as we do in is due to a) intensive factory farming (even if you eat free-range organic, you still benefit from this), and b) the fact that the majority of the world's population barely eat any meat (which is changing, due to improving economies and standard of living in places like China, India, etc.)

[Malphas]

So if no one ate meat we wouldn't need pig farms, cattle ranchers, fish farms etc, etc.... Right?

I mean there is no sense in having all these animals if we can't eat them.

Pig farmers need to pig farm. Cattle ranchers need to cattle ranch. Fish farmers need to fish farm.

Try convincing them they don't need to do what they do to make their living. I'll wait.

I'm pretty sure they're doing those things to make a profit and would most likely discontinue them if there was no market for what they're producing. Farmers are businessmen first and foremost, and don't romanticise their way of life the way some people disconnected from the industry tend to.

[sacratoy]

There's a whole industry of eating locally sourced meat where I am ('The Republic of' Boulder, CO). Eating locally sourced meat is feasible here, but the product itself is expensive due to the limited supply local farmers can produce. This leads to high prices, which many people aren't willing to pay.

Interestingly, though, it does create a group of people who's lifestyles have adjusted to accommodate those costs. They aren't necessarily rich, they just choose to get around by bike or by foot, and spend their leisure time hiking and volunteering in community coops. Because of this, there are people here who sustain themselves purely on local seasonally available food.

Having lived amongst and having grown up with heath nutty hippies my entire life, my opinion on the subject is: Veganism is bad.

When I say this, I speak of people who live a *purely* vegan diet. I grew up with kids who where vegan from the beginning, and at least in younger kids, it leads to all sorts of issues, mostly stemming it seems from hormone imbalances.

Getting a well rounded diet on food products of which no part is derived from animals in extremely difficult, and requires the individuals involved in the diet to fundamentally change the way they live. It's not to say it's impossible, but veganism is a diet that requires a degree of accommodation that fundamentally makes life so difficult, you already need to have a pretty comfortable and easily adjustable life to make it work.

As an experiment, I think people could benefit from taking ideas from veganism. Expand your sources of protein, diversity your diet, maybe take ideas from the paleo system and mix that in too. Maybe even alter your diet to favor locally available seasonal products, but I recommend not going cold turkey and going all into any particular diet.

There are a lot of diet trends out there. Find what diets interest you, and shop them al a carte.

I've lived in Boulder 24 years, and I've worked in the natural and organic grocery industries for 7 years. I've seen diets come and go, and I've done the ordering and merchandising for many of them.
I feel like I know a bit about this subject, but I'm neither a nutritionist nor a doctor. This is all anecdotal from my experiences living in a very health conscious culture and working in the industry that provided food to these communities. 

[dustinhxc]

I'm vegetarian right now, slowly working my way into veganism. Cutting meat from one's diet is easy, and cutting animal products in general isn't too much of a hassle with all the substitutes available now. The problem I run into is that substitutes are considerably more expensive than the product they're replacing, and it makes eating at a restaurant nigh impossible.

From a health standpoint there isn't necessarily a benefit. I'm well aware that I could have an equally healthy diet that included meat/animal products, but not eating that has caused me to think a lot harder about what I'm eating and has helped me make healthier choices overall. Plus, I agree with the ethical reasons for doing it, and I'm just plain curious to see how it feels long term.

Great job man! Im slowly working my way there. I still get chicken sometimes when I go out but thats it.

[Lanx]

if you eat a lb of steak a day, you're obviously doing something wrong, or you're special like a body builder or a dog.

if you eat 2/3 lb of steak a day and a loaded potatoe, something is still wrong.

if you do 1/2 lb of steak a side of veggies that haven't been bathed in oil and butter, a plain baked potatoe or corn on the cob and a bit of rice. congrats, balanced meal.

[Malphas]

I probably eat 2-3 lbs of meat a day on average.

[Lanx]

how do you eat so much meat?

if we just go by mcdonald's menu, the biggest patty is a 1/4 pounder

so you'd have to order 2 double quarter pounders to get 1lb of meat for lunch.

then eat 2 whole chicken breasts for dinner, just meet that 2lb of meat a day.

[Malphas]

Hmm, maybe I did the grams to lbs in my head wrong then. But I'll easily eat like a large steak, three chicken breasts, a couple tins of tuna, then miscellaneous stuff like strips of bacon, ham, etc. in a day.

[TheSoulhunter]

When I'm able to get good meat for a good price I eat up to 10 pound a week, in "normal" weeks I eat around 5 pounds...
But I should mention that I eat almost no vegetables, mainly potatoes, pepperonis, olives, onions, and tomatoes (in form of pasta sauce or ketchup).

[intelli78]

I probably eat 2-3 lbs of meat a day on average.

Epic

[dustinhxc]

I probably eat 2-3 lbs of meat a day on average.

 

[noisyturtle]

I probably eat 2-3 lbs of meat a day on average.

We are talking about meat you swallow, not what you put in your mouth behind the Arby's dumpster.




sorry, you just lobbed it in so softly, of course I'm gonna swing at it )

[Malphas]

I enjoy stuffing a piece of meat down my throat daily.

[tp4tissue]

I enjoy stuffing a piece of meat down my throat daily.

deeply?

[dustinhxc]

MAKING NACHOS TONIGHT!!!!!! With dairy free cheese and boca ground crumbles! Mmmmm.. Know whats cool? It will taste even better then normal. Healthy and lean protein!

[noisyturtle]

A nice delicious sticky meat stick, although I hear too much meat can damage the colon...

[tp4tissue]

MAKING NACHOS TONIGHT!!!!!! With dairy free cheese and boca ground crumbles! Mmmmm.. Know whats cool? It will taste even better then normal. Healthy and lean protein!

dairy free (cheese analogue) ?

[D01]

Makes no sense to me, veganism that is.

[dustinhxc]

MAKING NACHOS TONIGHT!!!!!! With dairy free cheese and boca ground crumbles! Mmmmm.. Know whats cool? It will taste even better then normal. Healthy and lean protein!

dairy free (cheese analogue) ?

Yeah try some sometime it's great!

[iri]

MAKING NACHOS TONIGHT!!!!!! With dairy free cheese and boca ground crumbles! Mmmmm.. Know whats cool? It will taste even better then normal. Healthy and lean protein!

dairy free (cheese analogue) ?

Yeah try some sometime it's great!

just like alcohol free vodka.