Veganism, what say you ?

[tp4tissue]

I am not convinced on the ethics. because ultimately choice is an illusion, and without choice there can be no blame, therefore no true ethics..

The dynamics of all relationship between all things has been power(mass,energy) and ability to influence(proximity)..


I am however quite convinced by the proposed health benefits and production efficiency that can be achieved by the human race switching to consuming vegan diets...


Now, on the subject of Gary Yourofsky's (vegan guru, animal rights activist)  take on speciesism... No discrimination has ever been arbitrary or without purpose, whether or not the targeted victim had been helpless or innocent.

Nazi_s killed the jews as scapegoats for germany's deep depressive state.. 

Whites oppressed blacks for PROFIT...


So all of the oppression ever committed was motivated by and resulted in some benefits for the Oppressor.



No amount of change will ever come, if you simply apply veganism without convincing forward incentive..


Gary, really wants people to be ethical.. He doesn't see that his perspectives and delineation of ethics is completely arbitrary...

Plants are life, bacteria are life.. why stop at not eating animals.. plants have aversion to pain and death.. should we simply not eat and die ourselves..


The point I'm trying to make is..  It is imperative that we do not create and envelope ourselves in meaningless random billings of right and wrong...


We follow survival most basically,  and as we become more self aware of our connection to the universe and each-other (humans), we pursue at times the greater good while sacrificing individual vices...

That's how it works...  Not randomly pick a tier in the food chain and say, but they can cry, we can't eat things that cry...


I'm all for not eating animals, but NOT because they can cry...

[Malphas]

There are no health benefits to veganism over a well balanced diet that includes meat, quite the opposite in fact. However a vegan diet is still typically healthier than an average unplanned diet by nature of it being more planned and excluding many unhealthy processed foodstuffs. All statistics espoused by pro-vegans are comparing the latter, rather than the former.

As far as ethics is concerned, I see morality as completely objective since there's no absolute bar by which to measure them. However it's not completely arbitrary either and most humans generally share the view that the suffering of other sentient creatures is generally an undesirable thing, so yes it can easily be argued from an ethical standpoint that veganism is the most surefire way to minimise animal suffering. But ultimately it's a personal choice.

[paicrai]

lol vegans are stupid /thread whatever the ****

[P3TC0CK]

It's not an random choice on food chain. Plants don't have the capacity or systems to feel or comprehend pain like animals do and simply respond to stimuli from the outside world.

That's just a fact, not some esoteric musings on the capacity and separation of plants.

[IvanIvanovich]

I used to eat vegan many many years ago. It is an absurd pain in the ass unless all you eat is fresh veggies and fruits and cook them yourself. Anything prepacked, processed foods are very difficult unless you learn which of all those long chemical compound type ingredients are animal derived. Eating in restaurants can be risky since you never know when they are going to do something like sautee some green beans in chicken fat.
As far as the ethical part, I think the same level of 'good' can be had by letting the animals be free range instead of pen raised and ensuring they are killed in the most fear and pain free way possible. This would be the premium meat. For cheap meat like the prepacked ground crap they sell at the supermarket, what is used at fast food and etc. they might as well just grow it artificially with no animal or death required.

[tp4tissue]

I feel like it's very hard to define   something  such as slavery..   because as long as discrepancy in power and ability exist,  certain actions of slavery such as the oppression and minimum subsistence will always exist..

So... we do in fact, enslave animals..  however,  most if not all of the animals we enslave would NOT be alive  if not for OUR own efforts in raising them..


Why humans would consider farm animals property or (secondary to us) is because without us, they would not exist in the number that they currently exist in..



This Gary guy.. says  the damn humans are not special...  well,  wtf is so special about cows then.. LOLOLOL


His ethical arguments are quite incomplete...   because the world is now two un-special animals,  why does it matter what the two stupid animals do to one another.


These people argue by picking and choosing whatever definition suits their purpose at the time they said what they said..


There is not truth to what they do, they just want to be right...

[intelli78]

I am not convinced on the ethics. because ultimately choice is an illusion, and without choice there can be no blame, therefore no true ethics..

OK, if you believe that, then there is no conversation at all needed on veganism... 

[tp4tissue]

I am not convinced on the ethics. because ultimately choice is an illusion, and without choice there can be no blame, therefore no true ethics..

OK, if you believe that, then there is no conversation at all needed on veganism... 

there absolutely is conversation on it..  If we do switch more towards plant based nutrition.. we could spend less time growing food, or grow less of it.. more time playing Starcraft ...

[intelli78]

Ohhh....hahah....starcraft 

OK, for real,

I am not convinced on the ethics. because ultimately choice is an illusion, and without choice there can be no blame, therefore no true ethics..

The dynamics of all relationship between all things has been power(mass,energy) and ability to influence(proximity)..

Even if you think the scientific/philosophical argument for determinism is convincing, surely you aren't saying it's a reason to throw away all ethics? You can't defend such an argument. Even if choice is ultimately an illusion and determined at the atomic level or lower, we still believe we have psychological agency. And because we are capable of suffering, we have to assume that others, humans and animals, can suffer as well. So insofar as we have the illusion of agency, we have to employ ethics and ethical behavior in our own lives.

I am however quite convinced by the proposed health benefits and production efficiency that can be achieved by the human race switching to consuming vegan diets...

What data has convinced you? Now, I will admit that not everything that is natural is good, but if a plant diet were truly optimal for humans, why didn't we evolve as herbivores? We probably eat far too much meat, but I am very skeptical that zero meat is nutritionally optimal. Vegans have to work very hard for proper nutrition. If cavemen had no meat, they'd probably have all died off.

Your entire argument relies heavily on your claim about health and production benefits... but I don't think the data are that clear cut at all. Again, what data is so conclusive?

Now, on the subject of Gary Yourofsky's (vegan guru, animal rights activist)  take on speciesism... No discrimination has ever been arbitrary or without purpose, whether or not the targeted victim had been helpless or innocent.

Nazi_s killed the jews as scapegoats for germany's deep depressive state.. 

Whites oppressed blacks for PROFIT...


So all of the oppression ever committed was motivated by and resulted in some benefits for the Oppressor.



No amount of change will ever come, if you simply apply veganism without convincing forward incentive..

OK, I'll roll with that...

Gary, really wants people to be ethical.. He doesn't see that his perspectives and delineation of ethics is completely arbitrary...

Plants are life, bacteria are life.. why stop at not eating animals.. plants have aversion to pain and death.. should we simply not eat and die ourselves..

The distinction is that humans and most vertebrates have the capacity to suffer. The debate about vegetarianism/veganism hinges on suffering. Plants do not have pain receptors. In fact, if they had brains, maybe they would want to be eaten. Plants are not apex species, they are at the bottom of the food chain.

...
I'm all for not eating animals, but NOT because they can cry...

In my opinion then, you've got everything wrong. I'm not a huge animal rights activist, not even a vegetarian. I love eating animals. In fact, I am probably more willing than most to subjugate animals and violate their "rights" in the human interest. I am fairly speciest in that regard. But still, I do not like animal cruelty, and the conditions that most farm animals are raised in are horrible. Animals frequently spend their entire lives in their own waste, unable to move, eventually being painfully killed. Again, I'm not an activist for change, I think as sad as it is, there are more pressing issues for humans. But still, if you don't think twice about that, you are wrong.

But like I said, if you think that physical determinism is true and consequently all ethics is meaningless, then I wouldn't expect anything else...

 

[intelli78]

Basically, I think you're just trolling, because your arguments are really weak compared to how provocative your conclusion is. If you really believe what you're saying, you are gonna need some stronger arguments. 

This is the future, anyway:

For cheap meat like the prepacked ground crap they sell at the supermarket, what is used at fast food and etc. they might as well just grow it artificially with no animal or death required.

[tp4tissue]

Even if you think the scientific/philosophical argument for determinism is convincing, surely you aren't saying it's a reason to throw away all ethics? You can't defend such an argument. Even if choice is ultimately an illusion and determined at the atomic level or lower, we still believe we have psychological agency. And because we are capable of suffering, we have to assume that others, humans and animals, can suffer as well. So insofar as we have the illusion of agency, we have to employ ethics and ethical behavior in our own lives.

_____

I never said throw away all ethics,  I am saying ethics is very arbitrary.. because it hinges on dynamic definitions of right and wrong..

So ethics can not be the FIRM guidance that people make it out to be.. 


Capable of suffering..  again,  suffering... RELATIVE TERMS.....   PEOPLE today who work for nearly minimum subsistence and under oppression...  Yet because we no longer call it slavery, it's been ok to carry out  all the similar acts of slavery..

--- SO now, we have to analyze,  what is suffering..   displeasure, pain, fear of death...  the argument would snowball quickly to nothingness.. and again becomes NOT useful..


And that is my perspective with respect to the Vegan agenda.. they argue imprecise ideas and words that ultimately can not be acted upon.. 


I concur that sure, vegans got good reasons to start eating more plants,   but as to their proposed superiority in morality and justice..   those are fiction..


Justice isn't real,  Power is real...    if the Sun was to blow up right now..   does anyone think justice and the right to human life to animal life matters?   No.. it's just gonna blow up and we're gonna die..


Morality must be reinvented to be more operational..

[intelli78]

Capable of suffering..  again,  suffering... RELATIVE TERMS.....   PEOPLE today who work for nearly minimum subsistence and under oppression...  Yet because we no longer call it slavery, it's been ok to carry out  all the similar acts of slavery..

--- SO now, we have to analyze,  what is suffering..   displeasure, pain, fear of death...  the argument would snowball quickly to nothingness.. and again becomes NOT useful..

Sure, you can argue about the definition of suffering until you reduce it to absurdity. But just because you can do that, does not mean that the concept of suffering is useless, or that we cannot identify it in the world. There could be no complete definition of suffering that excludes "living in your own waste your whole life, unable to move, and dying a painful death." That is suffering, a priori. Even if you create a more "operational" concept of morality (how you will do that, I don't know), it would have to view that scenario as suffering. If it did not, it wouldn't be a very good definition of suffering, would it?

And that is my perspective with respect to the Vegan agenda.. they argue imprecise ideas and words that ultimately can not be acted upon.. 


I concur that sure, vegans got good reasons to start eating more plants,   but as to their proposed superiority in morality and justice..   those are fiction..

Many of them are wankers, and their ideas may have consequences in terms of human suffering that are worse than the problem they are trying to solve. But I cannot agree that the cause is fictional. If an alien put YOU in a cage where you lived in your own **** your whole life before a painful death and becoming food, you would not so easily dismiss that as fictional suffering. You would not tell your advocates they were fighting for a fictional cause...

Morality must be reinvented to be more operational..

I would like to know what this entails...

[tp4tissue]

Many of them are wankers, and their ideas may have consequences in terms of human suffering that are worse than the problem they are trying to solve. But I cannot agree that the cause is fictional. If an alien put YOU in a cage where you lived in your own **** your whole life before a painful death and becoming food, you would not so easily dismiss that as fictional suffering. You would not tell your advocates they were fighting for a fictional cause...

-----------


I do not think they're bad people or wankers...  it is the CULT aspect that gets me.. similar to the Vitamix cult // Topre cult.. <still very angry about the vitamix>   


That is to say I find these people are incredibly emotional, and that envelopment has lead them to ignore practical alternatives and compromises..




I am glad you are inquisitive about operational Morality..


For most people  Morality is black and white..   This is the very basic reason why Morality doesn't work, and is of poor guidance..

 Too often.. there is the case for say 60% morality...   which is reflected in the way people do things..    No I don't go out and kill people for oil...  but If I allow my country USA to go kill people for oil.. Action by inaction.. .THOUGH I am somewhat moral, in that I did not kill directly..  I still sorta 40% did..

So, operational, means a morality slider that that initiates a bargaining process.. how much death for how much life..


See.. in practice... This is already going on..   the trouble is when we TALK to someone with an Absolute conviction of narrow ideals..   


So this operational morality that I put forth is to smooth discussion..  because AFK, humanity can not survive with any absolute unyielding belief, because that violates the need to adapt to changing conditions..

[intelli78]

So, utilitarianism? That's the system of morality that underpins our entire socio-political system.... it's nothing new... it is simply the only viable system of morality in a world where resources are scarce. Like how car manufacturers have to assign dollar values to human lives for insurance purposes. It's not pretty, but I completely agree with you that it's necessary. You won't get far in this world with a black-and-white moral outlook.

But, I still don't understand how this moral system leads you to your conclusion that veganism is all about efficiency and not at all about animal suffering? As I mentioned earlier, I am speciest, I am willing to tolerate some degree of animal suffering for the good of my own species. But to claim that animal suffering is totally irrelevant to the discussion? Surely animal suffering has to be accounted for in this moral bargaining system, especially when it is happening to such a great degree... It's another factor to consider, not a non-factor.

I think we basically agree about veganism and vegans*, in the final analysis, but I'm confused about how you're getting to your conclusion. Specifically, the logical step where you decide that "I'm all for not eating animals, but NOT because they can cry... "


*with the exception of any vegans in present company

[tp4tissue]

So, utilitarianism? That's the system of morality that underpins our entire socio-political system.... it's nothing new... it is simply the only viable system of morality in a world where resources are scarce. Like how car manufacturers have to assign dollar values to human lives for insurance purposes. It's not pretty, but I completely agree with you that it's necessary. You won't get far in this world with a black-and-white moral outlook.

But, I still don't understand how this moral system leads you to your conclusion that veganism is all about efficiency and not at all about animal suffering? As I mentioned earlier, I am speciest, I am willing to tolerate some degree of animal suffering for the good of my own species. But to claim that animal suffering is totally irrelevant to the discussion? Surely animal suffering has to be accounted for in this moral bargaining system, especially when it is happening to such a great degree... It's another factor to consider, not a non-factor.

I think we basically agree about veganism and vegans*, in the final analysis, but I'm confused about how you're getting to your conclusion. Specifically, the logical step where you decide that "I'm all for not eating animals, but NOT because they can cry... "


*with the exception of any vegans in present company

We came from seafoam... that's the current theory...


Whether or not something can cry,  is just how far it is from seafoam...

It's not unreasonable to think that given time, a plant or one of it's components may become intelligent life..


So if someone was simply to decide, lets not kill animals because "they have emotions"...   that is arbitrary  because  anything different from  us is only different in their relative distance from  SOME center..

So.. there is no force, no imperative, that we choose a cow over a plant...     The way they chose cows,   is because our empathy neurons are compatible with ANYTHING AT ALL with eyes, mouth, nose, and ears.. including anything resembling those features..

Most simply,  emotions are only a very small part of ultimate survival..  and the Veganism agenda takes that too far, using it as an infectious marketing tool, rather than a true explanation for why they should do the things they do.

[ComradeSniper]

I'm vegetarian right now, slowly working my way into veganism. Cutting meat from one's diet is easy, and cutting animal products in general isn't too much of a hassle with all the substitutes available now. The problem I run into is that substitutes are considerably more expensive than the product they're replacing, and it makes eating at a restaurant nigh impossible.

From a health standpoint there isn't necessarily a benefit. I'm well aware that I could have an equally healthy diet that included meat/animal products, but not eating that has caused me to think a lot harder about what I'm eating and has helped me make healthier choices overall. Plus, I agree with the ethical reasons for doing it, and I'm just plain curious to see how it feels long term.

[tp4tissue]

I'm vegetarian right now, slowly working my way into veganism. Cutting meat from one's diet is easy, and cutting animal products in general isn't too much of a hassle with all the substitutes available now. The problem I run into is that substitutes are considerably more expensive than the product they're replacing, and it makes eating at a restaurant nigh impossible.

From a health standpoint there isn't necessarily a benefit. I'm well aware that I could have an equally healthy diet that included meat/animal products, but not eating that has caused me to think a lot harder about what I'm eating and has helped me make healthier choices overall. Plus, I agree with the ethical reasons for doing it, and I'm just plain curious to see how it feels long term.

Cost isn't an issue for me.. but  i'm looking at these charts,  and it doesn't seem possible to get those essential amino acids without a **** ton of soy..

sigh..  Tp4 no like soy..

[Malphas]

It's rather contrived to believe that sentience and capability for suffering works on some linear scale between us and single-cell organisms or whatever, rather than quite obvious delineations. There's a fairly massive difference between a plant and a mammal, it's not just one notch up on a sliding scale, to pretend otherwise is nonsense, frankly.

[intelli78]

It's rather contrived to believe that sentience and capability for suffering works on some linear scale between us and single-cell organisms or whatever, rather than quite obvious delineations. There's a fairly massive difference between a plant and a mammal, it's not just one notch up on a sliding scale, to pretend otherwise is nonsense, frankly.

Correct...

Also, we don't try to minimize animal suffering simply because we anthropomorphize them, but rather because we have biologically similar pain circuitry...

[tp4tissue]

It's rather contrived to believe that sentience and capability for suffering works on some linear scale between us and single-cell organisms or whatever, rather than quite obvious delineations. There's a fairly massive difference between a plant and a mammal, it's not just one notch up on a sliding scale, to pretend otherwise is nonsense, frankly.

Correct...

Also, we don't try to minimize animal suffering simply because we anthropomorphize them, but rather because we have biologically similar pain circuitry...

what if they engineered pain circuitry out of animals... but kept the face the eyes the nose and mouth..

You can bet the majority of the people who would witness abuse of THESE truly dull animals, would still sympathize..


That is the biggest component to their agenda.. to ease their Emotional dissonance..

[lightsout714]

Meat is dinner.

That is all.

[dante]

Here is a trailer for a DVD that I found helpful:

^ For some reason the youtube tags aren't working on this link.

[Sniping]

Have you checked out Durianrider before on YouTube and strava?

He mostly eats fruit and he's a cardio powerhouse. He does as many miles on his bike as he can every January and he did over 5,000km this year.

[noisyturtle]

[tp4tissue]

Here is a trailer for a DVD that I found helpful:

^ For some reason the youtube tags aren't working on this link.

??

[TheSoulhunter]

Animals get abused and are made suffer for the benefits of humans...
Humans get abused and are made suffer for benefits of other humans (you live well because others live worse...)
Humans have the tendency to abuse the weak for their own benefits, that's actually one of the principles our world and society runs on.
You can only influence (to some extend) on which side of the spectrum you live, not participating would mean living as a self-sufficient hermit.

As for health benefits of a vegan diet...
I haven't done any research on this, but considering how we developed and why we developed to what we are now, it seems highly unnatural to not eat flesh.
Eating flesh meant you had to build traps or hunt (teamwork, tactics, thinking up and constructing weapons/traps) which favored the smart, thus over millenia leading to smarter man.
So, we developed to be flesh eaters, our physiology probably adapted to this as well, and abruptly changing our diet to plants only seems troublesome and complicated, perhaps even unhealthy.

Regarding the "should you care about the well being of animals" thing...
Empathy is something that developed because it was beneficial as soon we lived in packs/communities.
Caring about the well being of others benefited the group, leading to a higher reproduction rate, thus leading to the spread of that psychological behavior.
Keeping this in mind one could come to the conclusion that caring about the feelings of animals is not beneficial, and that not caring is actually much more beneficial.
But, we are what we are, emotional creatures not solely driven by logic and reasoning, so we care about the well being of others, even if it's not beneficial, and perhaps that's good.


Just my 2 Cents

[dante]

Here is a trailer for a DVD that I found helpful:

^ For some reason the youtube tags aren't working on this link.

??

The link points to a DVD trailer on how to make veggie burgers.  The stuff you get at the store Boca, Morning Star, etc. give Veggie burgers a bad name.

These have made it easier for me to keep my meat consumption down.

[JPG]

We should kill all the predators because they hurt and kill gentle animals! Oh wait, if we do, these animals will overpopulate and suffer from lack of food and die! Choices!!!


As far as I am concerned, I use my "gros bon sens". I don't know how you translate that, but it means using big plain logic. Eating meat is not a bad thing in itself. Eating meat with moderation is probably the wise thing to do. It's not because we have access to cheap chocolate that we need to eat it everyday. Same for meat. We should worry much more about producing better food quality and eating healthier in a general sense than simply banning some of the food we are used to.

[hwood34]

Have you checked out Durianrider before on YouTube and strava?

He mostly eats fruit and he's a cardio powerhouse. He does as many miles on his bike as he can every January and he did over 5,000km this year.

and also has about as much muscle mass as an 8 year old girl. No meat, not much protein, no muscle growth

[tp4tissue]

Have you checked out Durianrider before on YouTube and strava?

He mostly eats fruit and he's a cardio powerhouse. He does as many miles on his bike as he can every January and he did over 5,000km this year.

and also has about as much muscle mass as an 8 year old girl. No meat, not much protein, no muscle growth

I'm pretty sure it's just cuz he burns off the muscles doing endurance sport.. and has nothing to do with the diet..

[hwood34]

Have you checked out Durianrider before on YouTube and strava?

He mostly eats fruit and he's a cardio powerhouse. He does as many miles on his bike as he can every January and he did over 5,000km this year.

and also has about as much muscle mass as an 8 year old girl. No meat, not much protein, no muscle growth

I'm pretty sure it's just cuz he burns off the muscles doing endurance sport.. and has nothing to do with the diet..

you can do endurance sports and still have muscle. Especially bikers

[Lanx]

the problem is vegan is a lifestyle, just like any eccentric right wing repub or left win liberal or crazy christian they will shove their lifestyle down your throat.

you can't even go out with ****ing vegans.

this one time a friend of a friend wanted to goto dim sum, i'm more than happy to take ppl (my wife and myself will order for the table, blah blah, everyones happy) then she said she was a vegan,

WTF am i going to do with that?

in the end this vegan ***** ruined my lunch when i kept on ordering stuff for the table that she couldn't eat. or rather didn't want to eat.

i ended up just ordering cooked veggie choi sum and tofu dish just for her.

why the **** did this ***** decide to come.

and that illustrates how horrible vegans are, you have to bend over backward to accomodate them, while they just sit there and look stupid.


and it's not like they can't eat, i'm lucky, i can shove whatever down my stomach
my sister can't take peppers, so i don't cook with peppers, my nephew can't take nuts so no nuts, my other nephew can't take seafood, so i just have more turf than surf around, they can't physically digest these omissions. while a vegan is just a spoiled brat that just picks and chooses what they want and don't want.

[iri]

the problem is vegan is a lifestyle, just like any eccentric right wing repub or left win liberal or crazy christian they will shove their lifestyle down your throat.

you can't even go out with ****ing vegans.

this one time a friend of a friend wanted to goto dim sum, i'm more than happy to take ppl (my wife and myself will order for the table, blah blah, everyones happy) then she said she was a vegan,

WTF am i going to do with that?

in the end this vegan ***** ruined my lunch when i kept on ordering stuff for the table that she couldn't eat. or rather didn't want to eat.

i ended up just ordering cooked veggie choi sum and tofu dish just for her.

oh, so she ate something different from your food? she is basically a criminal.

while a vegan is just a spoiled brat that just picks and chooses what they want and don't want.

how dare those vegans behave like everyone else!

[Sniping]

Have you checked out Durianrider before on YouTube and strava?

He mostly eats fruit and he's a cardio powerhouse. He does as many miles on his bike as he can every January and he did over 5,000km this year.

and also has about as much muscle mass as an 8 year old girl. No meat, not much protein, no muscle growth

I'm pretty sure it's just cuz he burns off the muscles doing endurance sport.. and has nothing to do with the diet..

you can do endurance sports and still have muscle. Especially bikers

No, he talks about this in some videos. For the sports that he does (running and biking) any more mass will only slow you down. Being buff doesn't do much for you in this situation. He does half-marathon distance with 6 minute mile averages. That's really good in my eyes. He avoids weight training to prevent himself from gaining too much muscle.

[Malphas]

Have you checked out Durianrider before on YouTube and strava?

He mostly eats fruit and he's a cardio powerhouse. He does as many miles on his bike as he can every January and he did over 5,000km this year.

and also has about as much muscle mass as an 8 year old girl. No meat, not much protein, no muscle growth

The idea you need massive amounts of protein from animal/dairy sources to build muscle is a myth perpetuated by the supplement industry. It doesn't hurt but there are much more important factors like genetics and steroids. Your body only needs nine amino acids from dietary sources to synthesise  its own protein, which a well planned vegan/vegetarian diet should provide in sufficient quantity.

[tp4tissue]

the problem is vegan is a lifestyle, just like any eccentric right wing repub or left win liberal or crazy christian they will shove their lifestyle down your throat.

you can't even go out with ****ing vegans.

this one time a friend of a friend wanted to goto dim sum, i'm more than happy to take ppl (my wife and myself will order for the table, blah blah, everyones happy) then she said she was a vegan,

WTF am i going to do with that?

in the end this vegan ***** ruined my lunch when i kept on ordering stuff for the table that she couldn't eat. or rather didn't want to eat.

i ended up just ordering cooked veggie choi sum and tofu dish just for her.

why the **** did this ***** decide to come.

and that illustrates how horrible vegans are, you have to bend over backward to accomodate them, while they just sit there and look stupid.


and it's not like they can't eat, i'm lucky, i can shove whatever down my stomach
my sister can't take peppers, so i don't cook with peppers, my nephew can't take nuts so no nuts, my other nephew can't take seafood, so i just have more turf than surf around, they can't physically digest these omissions. while a vegan is just a spoiled brat that just picks and chooses what they want and don't want.

well... being vegan, she must be pretty lonely...  so on one hand, yes she ruined your lunch.. but...  she was trying to be social I think.. hahaha..


and there isn't anything vegan at the dimsum place... they use the same cookware and fry-oil for EVERYTHING..

[Malphas]

Yeah, the problem with a lot of vegans is their dietary habits are more about lifestyle choice and attention-seeking behavior than based on utility. So rather than becoming about minimising suffering of animals it becomes a hysterical paranoia about putting anything non-vegan into their mouths (like the restaurant example) and making sure everyone around them is aware of their vegan-status.

[SpAmRaY]

So if no one ate meat we wouldn't need pig farms, cattle ranchers, fish farms etc, etc.... Right?

I mean there is no sense in having all these animals if we can't eat them.

[iri]

vegan diet makes me fart all the time.

[SpAmRaY]

vegan diet makes me fart all the time.

Is that a positive or a negative? It could go either way.

[Malphas]

So if no one ate meat we wouldn't need pig farms, cattle ranchers, fish farms etc, etc.... Right?

I mean there is no sense in having all these animals if we can't eat them.

That would presumably be the ultimate pipe-dream of veganism, yes.

[dante]

So if no one ate meat we wouldn't need pig farms, cattle ranchers, fish farms etc, etc.... Right?

I mean there is no sense in having all these animals if we can't eat them.

That would presumably be the ultimate pipe-dream of veganism, yes.

As someone who consumes low amounts of meat (less than 5lbs per month) I have a different dream:

Everyone refuses to buy meat from grocery stores and instead buys from trusted farm co-ops.

Failing that - pick up a fishing pole or go hunting.

[paicrai]

So if no one ate meat we wouldn't need pig farms, cattle ranchers, fish farms etc, etc.... Right?

I mean there is no sense in having all these animals if we can't eat them.

That would presumably be the ultimate pipe-dream of veganism, yes.

As someone who consumes low amounts of meat (less than 5lbs per month) I have a different dream:

Everyone refuses to buy meat from grocery stores and instead buys from trusted farm co-ops.

Failing that - pick up a fishing pole or go hunting.

punch bears eat bears

[Lanx]

vegan ism is an ideal, just many ideals such as dogs and puppy mills.

everyone says don't support puppy mills, don't buy from stores, don't buy from breeders, adopt a pet from your local shelter.

which of course NO ONE does if you have a kid who wants a puppy. it's pretty much a 4 leaf clover find when a shelter/spca gets some puppies, and usually there are already 10s of ppl on their internal wait list. (you can ask your local spca/shelter to put you on a list for puppies or a specific breed and be one of the first ones)

i rescued a dog at 21 i had no business of owning. i'm a dumb 21 yr old who just moved with his gf to a new state and we're learning to live with each other to boot. 12 years later i married the same girl and the dog lived a nice happy long life if not for **** you cancer.

my wife met a wonderful couple that fosters huskies, in 5 years they probably fostered over 100 huskies. their own 2 huskies they got a from 2 different breeders. (there was 3rd that had complications)

why would they just go off and get dogs from breeders even after fostering so many? lots of reasons, you're never gonna find a puppy huskie to adopt, and having gone through over 100 fostered dogs, they're all some sort of messed up. remember a rescued/fostered dog is basically a second hand dog, you know your first used car you bought that just has that weird gear shift you don't know where it came from? samething with a fostered dog.

heck, my old dog was racist, he'd bark at every black person we walked past, and was a teddy bear to anyone else. i can only attribute this to him being a bait dog (dog fighters would have 1 dog that they would train pit bulls to bite on).

so while vegans can hope no one hurts plants and animals, it's not going to affect much

heck in the latest naked and afraid show, they had a redneck and a vegan try to tough it out. she refused to eat crabs/worms snakes... but by day 10 she ate a lizard, then at the end of the 21 day challenge she lost 18 pounds and had to eat meat to put back on that weight.

she was a real hippie chick too, one of those hulu hooping crazies.

[ferociousfingerings]

I am not convinced on the ethics. because ultimately choice is an illusion...

False.

I am not convinced on the ethics. because ultimately choice is an illusion, and without choice there can be no blame, therefore no true ethics..

OK, if you believe that, then there is no conversation at all needed on veganism... 

there absolutely is conversation on it..  If we do switch more towards plant based nutrition.. we could spend less time growing food, or grow less of it.. more time playing Starcraft ...

If choice is "an illusion," then there is no NEED of conversation. Whether there "is" is beside the point.

However, there is conversation... why?

Because choice is not inherently illusory.

It's just that the systems in place limit the options from which we may select. Choosing the best of 3 options (or least-bad thereof), when the preferred nth+ option is not available, does not equate to "choice illusion." It's merely constrained by factors beyond the control of the chooser.


Edit: my stance on this is as such: the animal has already been killed. It would be a shame to waste that life by refusing to utilize whatever can be usefully derived from it. Unless you can get EVERYONE to refuse, the animals will continue being bred to die for whatever useful purpose the currently established businesses intend to continue profiting from. If you can stop the animal killing businesses, then you'll have an argument.

[ferociousfingerings]

So if no one ate meat we wouldn't need pig farms, cattle ranchers, fish farms etc, etc.... Right?

I mean there is no sense in having all these animals if we can't eat them.

Pig farmers need to pig farm. Cattle ranchers need to cattle ranch. Fish farmers need to fish farm.

Try convincing them they don't need to do what they do to make their living. I'll wait.

[noisyturtle]

So if no one ate meat we wouldn't need pig farms, cattle ranchers, fish farms etc, etc.... Right?

I mean there is no sense in having all these animals if we can't eat them.

That would presumably be the ultimate pipe-dream of veganism, yes.

As someone who consumes low amounts of meat (less than 5lbs per month) I have a different dream:

Everyone refuses to buy meat from grocery stores and instead buys from trusted farm co-ops.

Failing that - pick up a fishing pole or go hunting.

punch bears eat bears

bear meat is so oily and gamey

[tp4tissue]

I am not convinced on the ethics. because ultimately choice is an illusion...

False.

I am not convinced on the ethics. because ultimately choice is an illusion, and without choice there can be no blame, therefore no true ethics..

OK, if you believe that, then there is no conversation at all needed on veganism... 

there absolutely is conversation on it..  If we do switch more towards plant based nutrition.. we could spend less time growing food, or grow less of it.. more time playing Starcraft ...

If choice is "an illusion," then there is no NEED of conversation. Whether there "is" is beside the point.

However, there is conversation... why?

Because choice is not inherently illusory.

It's just that the systems in place limit the options from which we may select. Choosing the best of 3 options (or least-bad thereof), when the preferred nth+ option is not available, does not equate to "choice illusion." It's merely constrained by factors beyond the control of the chooser.


Edit: my stance on this is as such: the animal has already been killed. It would be a shame to waste that life by refusing to utilize whatever can be usefully derived from it. Unless you can get EVERYONE to refuse, the animals will continue being bred to die for whatever useful purpose the currently established businesses intend to continue profiting from. If you can stop the animal killing businesses, then you'll have an argument.

hahah..

You see,  Choice is an illusion because  perfect information exists.. and there is an Origin to all that exists.. so all events are cascading, and thus could not have happened any other way.


CHOICE, is part of Human comprehension which floats above actuality in "Imperfect" informational state..

Because we are ourselves only part of the whole solution, relative to us, there is the perception of choice due to our lack of complete information..

If we knew all there is to know about one coming event perfectly, then we could say that event will occur..    The information to reach such a conclusion exist, because the precedent universe exists.


THUS .. choice is an illusion..   and our conversation is only due to the fact that we do not possess complete information..

That however does not alter the fact that completeness exists..

[paicrai]

So if no one ate meat we wouldn't need pig farms, cattle ranchers, fish farms etc, etc.... Right?

I mean there is no sense in having all these animals if we can't eat them.

That would presumably be the ultimate pipe-dream of veganism, yes.

As someone who consumes low amounts of meat (less than 5lbs per month) I have a different dream:

Everyone refuses to buy meat from grocery stores and instead buys from trusted farm co-ops.

Failing that - pick up a fishing pole or go hunting.

punch bears eat bears

bear meat is so oily and gamey

punch oil punch game fix meat punch meat eat meat

[microsoft windows]

Did you know that 96% of vegans use Windows 98?