Needed to rant a sec

[Melvang]

Is it really so bad to make a valiant effort to support your own countries economy by purchasing domestic products vs imports when economically feasible? 

I have been posting some questions on some machining forums with regards to smaller bench top sized mills.  While a there are a few people that appreciate me trying to support our economy here in the US by making an effort to purchase domestic made and domestic based products.  Then there is the other half that sound like this

Here is the message that has just been posted:
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I'm sorry but I will not buy foreign products when there is a reasonable US made part.  I work as a union millwright and everytime someone brings in foreign tools, they are total junk.  Haven't seen a quality foreign tool yet.  This ranges from combination wrenches to drill press to a brake.  Granted yes the parts inside my computer are foreign but I built the computer.  If you can find me parts that are on par performance wise with an i7-2600k and a 680GTX.

Melvang,
You need to get real, we live in a global economy.  There is not and never has been a product that was 100% made in USA.  If you have a chance to visit the Sherline factory, you may notice some of their production machines are foreign made, you may even notice that some of their employees are " ethnically diverse".  Take a look at their product line and you will find that the stepper motors they use are Chinese and I suspect other components as well.  If you are committed to 100% USA made, then I suggest you find your self an American Engineering firm, have them do your blueprints, then find an American foundry and have your castings made, then go to a Union machine shop and have the parts machined and then do the assembly and testing yourself.  Otherwise you are just some guy marching up and down the street in a pair of Chinese shoes waiving the American flag.
Sorry for the rant, but one of my major peeves is the " summer soldier and sunshine patriot ".

This quote is from the email notification.  I am quoting that because their forums are incredibly slow.

I will not mention which forum nor what his user name is for my personal reasons and it really doesn't matter.  I understand that I am not going to find anything in the vast majority of industries where a finished product is 100% US sourced.  But is it really that wrong to refuse to purchase imported products when there is a perfectly sutible US made product that is also economically feasible? 

/endrant 

Though I would still like to hear you opinions.

[nubbinator]

Nope, not wrong at all.  I like to support US made products for other reasons than quality, though that can be a big one.  Many of the US made products come from domestic companies that aren't complicit in offshoring their assets and actually pay taxes.  That's huge for the economy.  Many of them also fall into the small to medium size business category, businesses that are essential to maintaining a diverse market and provide a majority of the jobs in the US.

Also, on the topic of quality, US made doesn't necessarily mean quality, but I do find more quality US made tools than I do Chinese made tools.  Not only that, but in my experience, companies that produce US made products, especially tools, tend to have better customer service than others.  Mushkin, a computer hardware example, makes all of their stuff in the US except for ICs.  They have some of the best customer service I have ever had and their RAM is some of the best out there.

[katushkin]

"There is not and has never been a product that is 100% made in the USA"

What? How can he even believe that is true? Im not American, but I'm sure I could recite at least half a dozen products that are made 100% in the USA. Of course it isn't wrong to want to buy home made goods when they are the same as a foreign product.

[Krogenar]

When I was a kid, the phrase 'Made in China' meant the item was of low quality.

Unfortunately, that's no necessarily the case anymore. Sometimes the Chinese and other asian nations make things better than Americans do. People should not buy a substandard product of any kind, for the sake of 'supporting America' -- if you want to support America, make it easier for American companies to:

1. Stay in America -- which means lowering corporate taxes. Currently America has (among developed nations) very, very high corporate tax rates. We should lower them. And we should change our attitudes about business and free markets as a country.

2. Innovate -- I think we should enforce our copyright laws more stringently. If you want to apply a tariff to foreign goods, it should be based upon how well they respect IP laws. If we calculate that Amercian businesses lose X amount of money to Chinese copyright infringers, then use that number to calculate the tariff. It's not fair that an American company spends the money in R & D ... and then a foreign company just infringes on that product.

3. Compete -- Fair Trade Should Actually Be Fair --  China doesn't trade fairly with us. In fact, very few nations treat us fairly in terms of trade. We're not allowed to sell rice in a lot of Asian markets in order to protect their industries, and yet these other nations have the freedom to compete in our markets. That's not right.

Finally, Americans have to get better at manufacturing. But for me, that means government (and sorry, unions) have to get the **** out of the way. Case in point: the Boeing plant that was going to manufacture their new 777 Dreamliner -- they moved the plant to South Carolina in order to avoid union bull**** in Seattle, I think it was. The government didn't like that -- http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/business/21boeing.html?_r=0 -- and took steps to punish Boeing.

How long before Boeing (and other companies) just realize that it doesn't pay to operate in America, and move elsewhere?

If America doesn't become more competitive (and soon) we're going to lose out to other, hungrier, more productive nations.

[iri]

i can't remember using any high-quality item made in the usa after the 70's.

[tp4tissue]

In principle... YES we should support 'Murica..

It really depends on what's being made and if the margins can support american salaries

CPUs,   YES

Anything Low Tech, NO..

If you go all 'Murica with low Tech, you'll just end up with a noncompetitive product...


Patriotism ends where the wallet begins..   This is always the case..

Once it hits YOUR money pouch,   it's China all the way..

[Hundrakia]

Countries, and their being of merit to a people, are not the way of a useful future. I certainly hope we do away with them sooner than later.

When you buy locally made products and produce, however, you are directly helping someone who is better benefiting for each dollar you spend than if you buy it from a large corporation, be it whether they choose to manufacture in China or USA. If you want to help the USA, buy from the little guys. If you want to claim to help, to keep face, just look for that "Made in the USA" (assembled in the USA) sticker

[inanis]

My husband is also a union millwright (I've never met anyone else with this job title!) and he feels the same way about foreign vs American made tools. I agree that buying local is almost always better than the alternative. In particular when you have a relationship with the manufacturer it is easier to assure a quality product, and handle any issues that do come up. There are certainly some people who advocate to "buy American" or "buy local" because it is the hipster thing to do, and not because there is any meaning behind it to them. And that is just one of many annoying affectations that group will tend to have. However, that is not the case here. Advocating to buy from your home country (in this case America) or buy locally is not something that should be looked down upon. Why source something globally when it can be found at a reasonable price at home?

Some people are too jaded.

[Belfong]

You guys are lucky. We buy "Made in America" stuff for extremely inflated prices. Everything is Made in China here.. and the quality is truly dubious.

[CPTBadAss]

I was Made in America and my quality is dubious. Discuss.

[Belfong]

I was Made in America and my quality is dubious. Discuss.

Your parents ate too much sweet and sour pork, made by "China".

[Melvang]

In principle... YES we should support 'Murica..

It really depends on what's being made and if the margins can support american salaries

CPUs,   YES

Anything Low Tech, NO..

If you go all 'Murica with low Tech, you'll just end up with a noncompetitive product...


Patriotism ends where the wallet begins..   This is always the case..

Once it hits YOUR money pouch,   it's China all the way..

I would have to dissagree with this post 100%.  First off American salaries are not the primary cause for extra cost on products.  The first place you should be looking is CEO's salaries.  CEO salaries have increase 1000% compared to workers salaries in the last 30 years or so. 

"Low Tech"  Would combination box end/open end wrenches fall into this catagory?  If so then you are wrong here as well.  If you look at Armstrong, Wright, Proto, and/or Snap On (there are more but these are the ones off the top of my head) combination wrenches.  These will take more abuse, torque, and are more comfortable than anything from that entire side of the world that I have ever seen hands down.  I have been working with wrenches in my hands for a pay check for the last 12 years or so.  This even applies to hand held power tools including drills (corded and cordless), port-a-bands, angle grinders, die grinders, etc.  US made versions of these outlast imports at least 4-1 in my experience on any job site.

"Patriotism ends where the wallet begins..   This is always the case..

Once it hits YOUR money pouch,   it's China all the way.."

Wrong here again.  I read the results of a survey that said 68% of Americans would pay up to 10% more for most household products if they were US made provided they were just as readily available and ease of repair was comparable.

My husband is also a union millwright (I've never met anyone else with this job title!) and he feels the same way about foreign vs American made tools. I agree that buying local is almost always better than the alternative. In particular when you have a relationship with the manufacturer it is easier to assure a quality product, and handle any issues that do come up. There are certainly some people who advocate to "buy American" or "buy local" because it is the hipster thing to do, and not because there is any meaning behind it to them. And that is just one of many annoying affectations that group will tend to have. However, that is not the case here. Advocating to buy from your home country (in this case America) or buy locally is not something that should be looked down upon. Why source something globally when it can be found at a reasonable price at home?

Some people are too jaded.

Thank you for the support.

[Hundrakia]

I was Made in America and my quality is dubious. Discuss.

Your parents ate too much sweet and sour pork, made by "China".

Also, he's an anomaly. Most Made In America™ people are average.

[esoomenona]

.

[Binge]

I was Made in America and my quality is dubious. Discuss.

I read this as I was made in America and my quality is Dude-US!

p.s. Bingecaps, Brobots, CC, and KBK are all made in the US.

[nubbinator]

I was Made in America and my quality is dubious. Discuss.

I read this as I was made in America and my quality is Dude-US!

p.s. Bingecaps, Brobots, CC, and KBK are all made in the US.

Thanks for the exclusion.

[Binge]

I was Made in America and my quality is dubious. Discuss.

I read this as I was made in America and my quality is Dude-US!

p.s. Bingecaps, Brobots, CC, and KBK are all made in the US.

Thanks for the exclusion.

CA is going to break off into the ocean soon enough and claim independence.

[fohat.digs]

Until US companies have a real reason to stay in the US (ie money) they will continue to flee for reasons of their own (ie money).

Unfortunately, the country is completely divided into diametrically opposed camps on how to accomplish this, as it is completely divided into diametrically opposed camps on everything else.

[tp4tissue]

In principle... YES we should support 'Murica..

It really depends on what's being made and if the margins can support american salaries

CPUs,   YES

Anything Low Tech, NO..

If you go all 'Murica with low Tech, you'll just end up with a noncompetitive product...


Patriotism ends where the wallet begins..   This is always the case..

Once it hits YOUR money pouch,   it's China all the way..

I would have to dissagree with this post 100%.  First off American salaries are not the primary cause for extra cost on products.  The first place you should be looking is CEO's salaries.  CEO salaries have increase 1000% compared to workers salaries in the last 30 years or so. 

"Low Tech"  Would combination box end/open end wrenches fall into this catagory?  If so then you are wrong here as well.  If you look at Armstrong, Wright, Proto, and/or Snap On (there are more but these are the ones off the top of my head) combination wrenches.  These will take more abuse, torque, and are more comfortable than anything from that entire side of the world that I have ever seen hands down.  I have been working with wrenches in my hands for a pay check for the last 12 years or so.  This even applies to hand held power tools including drills (corded and cordless), port-a-bands, angle grinders, die grinders, etc.  US made versions of these outlast imports at least 4-1 in my experience on any job site.

"Patriotism ends where the wallet begins..   This is always the case..

Once it hits YOUR money pouch,   it's China all the way.."

Wrong here again.  I read the results of a survey that said 68% of Americans would pay up to 10% more for most household products if they were US made provided they were just as readily available and ease of repair was comparable.

My husband is also a union millwright (I've never met anyone else with this job title!) and he feels the same way about foreign vs American made tools. I agree that buying local is almost always better than the alternative. In particular when you have a relationship with the manufacturer it is easier to assure a quality product, and handle any issues that do come up. There are certainly some people who advocate to "buy American" or "buy local" because it is the hipster thing to do, and not because there is any meaning behind it to them. And that is just one of many annoying affectations that group will tend to have. However, that is not the case here. Advocating to buy from your home country (in this case America) or buy locally is not something that should be looked down upon. Why source something globally when it can be found at a reasonable price at home?

Some people are too jaded.

Thank you for the support.

Mid-end tech products out of china, has a typical input cost of 30% of retail value.

You try competing with that with american wages + taxes + insurance + social security + old fart lethargic unmotivated workers @ minimum wage....

[dorkvader]

I have some precision screwdrivers that were made in Germany that are great! I also have some hand tools made in Europe that are good. I haven't found an american company that can match their quality on small precision screwdrivers.

That said, I understand that with a lot of tools for larger work, american made is the only way to go.

So I understand your point, I also see Wiggles84's point of view. A lot of products, even very high quality ones are designed in the USA but manufactured in Asia. It is indeed possible to get good stuff made there with very exacting quality. It's really hard to get something that was legitimately made 100% in the USA (like keyboard cases. Representing the made-in-the-USA Skeldon right here!)

I think GITRDUN needs to do some more research about supply chains in the computer industry. Much of it is likely made in taiwan, and intel has some foundrys in the US, but I'm not sure if they are used for the main CPUs.

But there are ways to support the US economy some. You can get products that were designed in the USA, even if they were manufactured elsewhere. You can get products that were made partially in the US. You can go with the "more local" option. I think this is very noble and more in the spirit of what you want than just a hard line of 100% USA or bust. It's almost impossible to get anything that's 100% made in the USA anymore, and the way asian contract manufacturers are going: it's coming to a tipping point where it's possible to get better stuff from asia than you can here in the US.

edit: turns out that most of intel's semiconductor foundrys are in the US, and every single one capable of under 65nm is here.