Browns Feel Heavy to Type On

[notsonerd]

I'm a bit surprised myself. Maybe I'm just a really lazy, light-forced typist, but my fingers get tired after typing one sentence on this board.

Linear switches (Reds) don't make much difference. Is there a lighter switch out there?

[Fragil1ty]

I'm a bit surprised myself. Maybe I'm just a really lazy, light-forced typist, but my fingers get tired after typing one sentence on this board.

Linear switches (Reds) don't make much difference. Is there a lighter switch out there?

Not to my knowledge, personally I don't get finger fatigue when typing on MX Cherry Reds. Browns are weird for me, I  just do not like the bump what so ever and that's what makes me feel they're a bit 'heavier' and what not.


But I think 45g is the lightest of the Cherry switches.

[yasuo]

ml switch scissor and them similar
cutting the spring like mykeyboard.com
or custom light spring out there people here can help you

[spiceBar]

I'm a bit surprised myself. Maybe I'm just a really lazy, light-forced typist, but my fingers get tired after typing one sentence on this board.

Linear switches (Reds) don't make much difference. Is there a lighter switch out there?

A Topre Realforce 87U feels lighter. It has 45g keys in the middle, where your strong fingers press, and 30g keys on the side, where you weaker fingers operate.

There are all 45g Realforce and 55g ones, but I'm not talking about these.

You may or may not like it. I'm already surprised you find browns heavy, because they are generally considered light or even too light (which is why some prefer MX clears).

I can't think about anything smoother and lighter than a Realforce.

[jacobolus]

Can you take a video (or even a photo) of the way you sit and hold your arms and hands when you type? It’s really difficult to offer useful ergonomics advice based on a few sentences of text.

[hwood34]

The only switches you could find that are lighter are Korean springs, but like jacobolus said, the issue is more likely a problem with your typing.

[Melvang]

There was a keyboard that was custom made with 8cn snap action switches.

I have a feeling it might be more due to your typing style.  How often/hard do you bottom out on the keys?

Try focusing on not bottoming out at all for a session.  Yes your speed will drop.  But try that and see how it works.

[tp4tissue]

this has to do with new keys and friction..

and depending on the quality of the caps, it could add to friction.

[spiceBar]

this has to do with new keys and friction..

and depending on the quality of the caps, it could add to friction.

Caps adding to friction?

How?

[notsonerd]

I could post a video possibly tomorrow or later tonight. I'm not in the best position to do that right now.

I'm pretty sure it's just the Brown switches. After re-assessing the feel of my Corsair K60, I actually notice that the Reds feel better to type on.

I tried light touch-typing on the Browns and I definitely didn't feel as tired. My speed and accuracy was the same for the most part, but typing this way requires I be much more deliberate with my key presses. It works the same way for the Reds, but oddly enough I can bottom-out while typing on the Reds no problem. Could the tactile feedback be what's bugging me when I type?

[Melvang]

The tactility or lack of is very much personal preference.  Sounds like you just don't care for tactile switches.

Also, I would venture to guess that bottoming out is causing your discomfort.  Bottoming out is not good on your hands and wrists.  It can lead to RSI.

[shut up]

I get that same feeling sometimes, that's why I stick to blues for long periods of typing.

[Tiramisuu]

Very odd.  Browns are quite light and the bump means there is no reason to bottom out like you would with a red.   Hard to imagine something much lighter.

[Melvang]

Very odd.  Browns are quite light and the bump means there is no reason to bottom out like you would with a red.   Hard to imagine something much lighter.

I believe the issues is not related to he weight of the springs but due to bottoming out, probably pretty hard.

[Altis]

May want to try a nice scissor-switch keyboard. I do find some of them to be quite good for long sessions. The typing feel may not be what you're looking for, but I'd hate to see you do any harm to your hands.

If you're having trouble with even a few sentences, then there may already be an issue with your hands/wrists. I'd consider getting it checked out or at the very least, try doing some hand exercises and stretches to see if that helps.

[notsonerd]

The tactility or lack of is very much personal preference.  Sounds like you just don't care for tactile switches.

Also, I would venture to guess that bottoming out is causing your discomfort.  Bottoming out is not good on your hands and wrists.  It can lead to RSI.

At the very least, I may just not like the Browns. Typing light on my V60 is already getting annoying for me. Bottoming-out is that bad, huh? Looks like I'll have to either stick to Reds or try another board. Sad that I may have to sell my very first one within a month of receiving it. Any recommendations of switches/boards to try? I'd really rather not go back to rubber dome.

May want to try a nice scissor-switch keyboard. I do find some of them to be quite good for long sessions. The typing feel may not be what you're looking for, but I'd hate to see you do any harm to your hands.

If you're having trouble with even a few sentences, then there may already be an issue with your hands/wrists. I'd consider getting it checked out or at the very least, try doing some hand exercises and stretches to see if that helps.

Thing is I typed on my HP laptop with scissor switches for a couple of years and loved it before getting my first mech. When I made the switch to a dedicated mechanical keyboard my typing was very light at the start and I hardly bottomed-out. Over a short time I naturally became a heavier typist, unaware that I was actually bottoming-out most of my keystrokes.

[jacobolus]

“Bottoming out” (i.e. getting to the bottom of the switch stroke) is not bad per se. What’s bad is bottoming out hard. It’s bad because a hard impact puts a lot of stress on your cartilage and ligaments, and the vibration probably isn’t good for other tissues either.

Basically, you want to be typing with your wrists as straight as possible, palms and wrists floating in the air (resting them on a hard surface can press down on the carpal tunnel, & cetera). You want your finger motions to be light and springy, using just a bit more force than necessary to reliably actuate the switch. It’s okay if the switches depress all the way and touch down at the bottom, but you should try to avoid slamming the switch into the bottom of the stroke.

Most people learn very bad habits when typing on mushy rubber domes: cheap rubber domes only actuate at the very bottom of the stroke, and switch actuation is unreliable unless substantial force is used. This trains the typist to always use dramatically more force than necessary (maybe twice or three times as much force as necessary to actuate the switch), and slam the key all the way down.

Mechanical switches typically actuate somewhere between 1/4 and 3/4 of the distance through the stroke (Cherry MX switches actuate about halfway through the stroke). As soon as you cross that point, the switch will reliably actuate, so there is no need for the switch to go all the way down. This means you can type with a light springy motion and still avoid accidentally missing keystrokes.

It’s not necessary to obsess over never bottoming out any switch. Just try to keep your motions springy: think dancing, not stomping.

Personally, I find that very sharply tactile (and audibly clicky) switches help me with this: I find I have much less impact at the bottom of my keystrokes when using a buckling spring, clicky Alps, clicky SMK, or similar keyboard. With linear switches it takes a bit more effort and discipline.

[notsonerd]

“Bottoming out” (i.e. getting to the bottom of the switch stroke) is not bad per se. What’s bad is bottoming out hard. It’s bad because a hard impact puts a lot of stress on your cartilage and ligaments, and the vibration probably isn’t good for other tissues either.

Basically, you want to be typing with your wrists as straight as possible, palms and wrists floating in the air (resting them on a hard surface can press down on the carpal tunnel, & cetera). You want your finger motions to be light and springy, using just a bit more force than necessary to reliably actuate the switch. It’s okay if the switches depress all the way and touch down at the bottom, but you should try to avoid slamming the switch into the bottom of the stroke.

Most people learn very bad habits when typing on mushy rubber domes: cheap rubber domes only actuate at the very bottom of the stroke, and switch actuation is unreliable unless substantial force is used. This trains the typist to always use dramatically more force than necessary (maybe twice or three times as much force as necessary to actuate the switch), and slam the key all the way down.

Mechanical switches typically actuate somewhere between 1/4 and 3/4 of the distance through the stroke (Cherry MX switches actuate about halfway through the stroke). As soon as you cross that point, the switch will reliably actuate, so there is no need for the switch to go all the way down. This means you can type with a light springy motion and still avoid accidentally missing keystrokes.

It’s not necessary to obsess over never bottoming out any switch. Just try to keep your motions springy: think dancing, not stomping.

Personally, I find that very sharply tactile (and audibly clicky) switches help me with this: I find I have much less impact at the bottom of my keystrokes when using a buckling spring, clicky Alps, clicky SMK, or similar keyboard. With linear switches it takes a bit more effort and discipline.

I guess I've been bottoming-out too harshly recently, hence the fatigue in my fingers. I've been trying this "springy" method but can't seem to get it down. What I end up doing is barely tapping the keys when I type with as little force as possible. This style is noticeably less fun to use on the Browns than the Reds for me. Am I doing it right? I've never been a good dancer.

I have a fat wrist rest that I use when I'm typing on my V60 and that allows me to relax my wrists at an elevated level, but they're not as elevated as they would be when typing on my K60 without a wrist rest.

[Oobly]

Have you tried orings yet? They dampen the bottom out force. I like to trampoline mod my switches, so I don't have to fiddle with orings and can customise the feel a bit more, but you can get the idea from just trying orings.

It's easier to "feather" force used when typing with linear switches than Browns since the tactile bump changes the pressure profile and you tend to push a little harder and therefore bottom out more often and harder.

[notsonerd]

Have you tried orings yet? They dampen the bottom out force. I like to trampoline mod my switches, so I don't have to fiddle with orings and can customise the feel a bit more, but you can get the idea from just trying orings.

It's easier to "feather" force used when typing with linear switches than Browns since the tactile bump changes the pressure profile and you tend to push a little harder and therefore bottom out more often and harder.

I ordered a cheap set off of Banggood to try them out on my board last week. Should be arriving soon. I suppose I'll give those a try before I decide to sell/trade my board. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Tony]

So the topic starter bottoms out all the time, that is why he is tired. Go only half distance for all Cherry switches, that's enough.

Instead of banging the keyboard, your fingers can dance on it and still type. Brown is tactile, means that there is slight mark in the switch that let you know when you pass the actuation position.

Of course you do bottom out sometimes (30% of mine), but you should know that you don't have to.

[notsonerd]

So the topic starter bottoms out all the time, that is why he is tired. Go only half distance for all Cherry switches, that's enough.

Instead of banging the keyboard, your fingers can dance on it and still type. Brown is tactile, means that there is slight mark in the switch that let you know when you pass the actuation position.

Of course you do bottom out sometimes (30% of mine), but you should know that you don't have to.

I wouldn't say "bottoms out all the time." I'm pretty sure I'm still a very light typist compared to most. And I definitely don't bang my keyboard. I'm gonna get that recording up.

[saint_james]

A Topre Realforce 87U feels lighter. It has 45g keys in the middle, where your strong fingers press, and 30g keys on the side, where you weaker fingers operate.

There are all 45g Realforce and 55g ones, but I'm not talking about these.

You may or may not like it. I'm already surprised you find browns heavy, because they are generally considered light or even too light (which is why some prefer MX clears).

I can't think about anything smoother and lighter than a Realforce.

^^^this^^^

I recommend you try the ergonomically-weighted Realforce. 

[notsonerd]

Okay. Here's my typing on the KBP V60 with Browns.

My typing test.

^^^this^^^

I recommend you try the ergonomically-weighted Realforce.

If I could find a good deal, I would.

[saturnotaku]

If I could find a good deal, I would.

Don't know what you would define as a good deal, but these keyboards crop up in the classifieds every now and again for a decent amount off of what you'd pay for a brand new one.

[NeedAFix]

I feel like I make more mistakes with Reds since they are much easier to 'utilize'.

Still getting use to them I suppose, typed on browns for a couple years.

I like the feel of the browns but I can tell I will eventually get faster with reds.

[yasuo]

i think key travel also affect

[jacobolus]

Okay. Here's my typing on the KBP V60 with Browns.

Okay, here are my recommendations:

(0) You don’t generally want to be resting your palms/wrists on anything while typing, especially if you’re typing an extended amount, like pages and pages of text. Palmrests are great when you’re resting, but I wouldn’t recommend putting much weight on one while typing, especially since most palmrests are lower than they would need to be to support a straight wrist while typing. (There are probably some ways of typing while putting a little bit of weight on a palmrest that are fine, but it’s also pretty easy to slip into an uncomfortable way of using one.)

(1) Your desk is too high and/or your chair is too low. Right now, your wrists need to bend forward so that you can reach the keys, because your elbow is below the level of the table and your arm is reaching upward. The ideal chair/desk relationship will have your elbows at a 90°+ angle with your wrist at the same level as your elbows or even slightly below.

(1a) If you can, lowering your desk (e.g. using a keyboard tray) and/or raising your chair is the best solution.

(1b) If you are going to put your desk/chair the way you have them now (This is sometimes unavoidable e.g. at an office where you can’t adjust the furniture, or when working at a coffee shop, etc.), then you should try tilting the keyboard a bit more, until your wrists are straight. Having your wrists straight is more important than having your elbows open, which is why old typewriters and keyboards from 50 years ago have a steep angle: they were designed to be used with too-high desks. Moving the palmwrest aside might help to figure out a good angle

As always, let your own body be the guide. If something I’m suggesting feels uncomfortable or painful, then don’t do it. Do whatever you find comfortable and pay attention to what motions seem natural or awkward to you. Everyone is a little bit different, etc.

[notsonerd]

Okay. Here's my typing on the KBP V60 with Browns.

Okay, here are my recommendations:

(0) You don’t generally want to be resting your palms/wrists on anything while typing, especially if you’re typing an extended amount, like pages and pages of text. Palmrests are great when you’re resting, but I wouldn’t recommend putting much weight on one while typing, especially since most palmrests are lower than they would need to be to support a straight wrist while typing. (There are probably some ways of typing while putting a little bit of weight on a palmrest that are fine, but it’s also pretty easy to slip into an uncomfortable way of using one.)

(1) Your desk is too high and/or your chair is too low. Right now, your wrists need to bend forward so that you can reach the keys, because your elbow is below the level of the table and your arm is reaching upward. The ideal chair/desk relationship will have your elbows at a 90°+ angle with your wrist at the same level as your elbows or even slightly below.

(1a) If you can, lowering your desk (e.g. using a keyboard tray) and/or raising your chair is the best solution.

(1b) If you are going to put your desk/chair the way you have them now (This is sometimes unavoidable e.g. at an office where you can’t adjust the furniture, or when working at a coffee shop, etc.), then you should try tilting the keyboard a bit more, until your wrists are straight. Having your wrists straight is more important than having your elbows open, which is why old typewriters and keyboards from 50 years ago have a steep angle: they were designed to be used with too-high desks. Moving the palmwrest aside might help to figure out a good angle

As always, let your own body be the guide. If something I’m suggesting feels uncomfortable or painful, then don’t do it. Do whatever you find comfortable and pay attention to what motions seem natural or awkward to you. Everyone is a little bit different, etc.

Thanks for your response.

I tried out your recommendations and...

(0) The wrist rest I use actually assists my typing experience with this board since it's "fat" and is perfectly aligned with the top of the case of my board. When using slimmer, flatter wrist rests, I definitely see your point. However, the wrist rest I currently use elevates my wrists to a comfortable height and I personally find that it eases the typing experience.

(1) This one is spot-on. My desk is in fact too high and my chair is too low. I get the worst of both worlds. I was considering buying another chair/keyboard tray--this information may bump the items up my wishlist queue.

(1a) Typing with my elbows above the level of the table helps tremendously, and when I switched to another higher chair, the comfort level in my typing improved greatly.

(1b) Elevating myself and bringing my arms closer to my body to create that 90 degree angle emulated the tilt you described I should try. The keyboard by default already tilts at a slight angle. After angling the keyboard a bit more by wedging an XL-sized candy bar (Hershey's Cookies 'n Creme for anyone who's curious), I found that it became a little more comfortable to type on.

Great advice. Typing on the Browns already feels much more pleasant than it did last night. Thanks, jacobolus.
(

[3Love]

Browns switch is the most simply switches family. If you think it's heavy to type. You should try to use red. Other, I think Realforece is good choice for you.

[jacobolus]

By the way: if you can elevate your chair or lower the desk/tray, then the ideal is actually a keyboard that’s flat (no tilt at all), or even a slight negative tilt.

The proper amount to tilt the keyboard depends on the angle of your forearms: the goal is to get the wrists straight.

[notsonerd]

By the way: if you can elevate your chair or lower the desk/tray, then the ideal is actually a keyboard that’s flat (no tilt at all), or even a slight negative tilt.

The proper amount to tilt the keyboard depends on the angle of your forearms: the goal is to get the wrists straight.

Oh. Well, then just changing my chair and positioning myself closer to the keyboard solved this right away.

Thanks again for the awesome input.