Author Topic: This recurrent Dream I keep having  (Read 12148 times)

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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #50 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 20:11:52 »
This dream clearly means you are seeking a penis in the butt.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #51 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 20:23:50 »
This dream clearly means you are seeking a penis in the butt.

Naw bro.. that's just you man..

Those type of thoughts never ever cross my mind.. 

Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 27 January 2015, 01:02:34 »
I am making perfect sense.

You're trying to affirm your beliefs including the act of believing through improper means.

Because the Faith you know is not a- real-thing in this universe, it can not be acted upon, or in any way represent any portion of reality.

That does not alter the fact that faith is a-thing, that it-exists.. but as is consciousness, they're both placeholder variables.

You are making assumptions about my intentions and reacting to those instead of reading what it is I've actually written and thinking rationally about them. Why don't you answer my questions?

Again... Please... What improper means am I using and what beliefs am I trying to affirm in your view?

You're saying faith cannot be acted upon... How can you act without it? Please explain this to me. Do you, or do you not need to trust your senses in everyday life? If you do, you have faith in them. It's as simple as that. Does this statement somehow offend you? Is there some part of your worldview that cannot allow this to be true? I'm not talking about religion here, or belief in anything other than the everyday.

It astounds me how this is not obvious to so many who claim to be able to think.

Your responses contain a lot of nonsense words thrown together as if they actually mean something. But there's no logic or rationality behind them. Perhaps you don't consider those to exist either?
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Offline paicrai

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #53 on: Tue, 27 January 2015, 03:09:00 »
the ****
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good **** go౦ԁ ****👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌**** right👌👌th 👌 ere👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯  i say so 💯  thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good ****

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 27 January 2015, 18:56:56 »
Everything is reactive.

That includes thought. since all events cascade from the origin.

Act implies choice and selection, because you can not choose, you can not act..

Faith being a consequence of physical systems is a thing that may exist.

What would happen happens with or without faith/ belief as a concept..  but faith and belief as their physical counterparts setting the next domino in motion is possible..

The problem is you are mixing the magical idea of faith, of which is a departure from our current reality  with  the current reality..

Your faith is magical.. and it can not influence reality because magic as defined can only run in parallel..  If the streams cross, then the stream is neither magic nor non magic.. Even if this is a possibility, we could not perceive such a universe given the current limitation of our binary processing system.

I've read precisely what you've written.. And I break it down to your intentions, because in that way, I can understand what you're attempting to accomplish...

You deride my writing and logic.. Everything that ever occurs is rational and happens as it should have..  I am rational independent of your capability to understand me

It is possible within the perceived universe to define its opposite.. this is a necessary condition for existence.. But that doesn't mean the realities of said opposites can cross.


Offline Firebolt1914

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 27 January 2015, 19:12:58 »
The thing is, you don't have proof that faith doesn't affect the world in a metaphysical point of view. In that case, you don't know how anything works, except the fact that you're alive and that *something* is causing you to do things and we call it 'free will' as people don't like it when things aren't named.

Metaphysics has 2 questions: "What's out there?" and "What is it like?"
The problem happens due to the fact that both the answers transcends what people can comprehend, and we do that in opposites. You can think that something is bad, because it's the opposite of good, and vice versa. If you think about it enough, you can understand that this is the basis of how we understand things.

We cannot know what's out there, and we cannot know what its like, as both answers transcend this duality, which is out of our comprehension.

Therefore, this 'faith' is the closest thing that you can comprehend, of the answer to these two metaphysical questions. This faith, can also be whatever the person desires it to be.

Offline Firebolt1914

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #56 on: Tue, 27 January 2015, 19:13:19 »
I can't believe i actually seriously replied to a tp thread. help i've finally done it

Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 28 January 2015, 01:57:50 »
Everything is reactive.

That includes thought. since all events cascade from the origin.

Act implies choice and selection, because you can not choose, you can not act..

Faith being a consequence of physical systems is a thing that may exist.

What would happen happens with or without faith/ belief as a concept..  but faith and belief as their physical counterparts setting the next domino in motion is possible..

The problem is you are mixing the magical idea of faith, of which is a departure from our current reality  with  the current reality..

Your faith is magical.. and it can not influence reality because magic as defined can only run in parallel..  If the streams cross, then the stream is neither magic nor non magic.. Even if this is a possibility, we could not perceive such a universe given the current limitation of our binary processing system.

I've read precisely what you've written.. And I break it down to your intentions, because in that way, I can understand what you're attempting to accomplish...

You deride my writing and logic.. Everything that ever occurs is rational and happens as it should have..  I am rational independent of your capability to understand me

It is possible within the perceived universe to define its opposite.. this is a necessary condition for existence.. But that doesn't mean the realities of said opposites can cross.

I'm not talking about a theoretical concept of how things could possibly be, if you only use thought to derive it, but a real principal that everyone makes use of daily in interacting with the world they find themselves in.

Arthur C. Clarke once wrote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

I will expand that a little while keeping to the core of the thought: "Anything you perceive that you don't yet understand is indistiguishable from magic."

The process you go through in order to make sense of your universe is what I am discussing. It's irrelevant whether what you perceive is "real" or not, or whether your choices and actions are predetermined electrochemically or not, but the process that is used to make enough sense of your surroundings to function is the same.

It's a feedback loop that includes gathering evidence, forming hypotheses, formulating actions and executing them to increase the body of evidence and eventually acting in faith based on that evidence.

This is what happens irrespective of what is being perceived and interacted with.

If you want to extend this to MY faith and YOUR faith as you seem to want to separate things, let's look at an example. I can write to you that I have a mug of some new drink you have never heard of on my desk and how that drink tastes. I trust that the drink not only exists, but has certain properties (flavour, sweetness, texture, etc), based on the evidence of it that I have perceived / experienced. You have no perception of the drink except for my written words. Your "faith" in the existence of the drink is entirely dependent on how much you know about me and whether you trust me and my motives in telling you about the drink. For you to tell me that the drink CANNOT exist or be perceived, or that my trust in it's existence is "magical" and not based in "reality", simply because it's not something you have experience of is both presumptuous and judgemental. It's fine to tell me you don't believe it exists because you haven't got enough evidence to support belief in it, though (to overcome your unbelief).

I understand your desire to separate the physical and metaphysical, but the method of dealing with both is the same and it is this method / mechanism which is under discussion here. The senses used to perceive each may be different, but the process of working out just how "real" things are in each is the same.

The thing is, you don't have proof that faith doesn't affect the world in a metaphysical point of view.
I agree.
Quote
In that case, you don't know how anything works, except the fact that you're alive and that *something* is causing you to do things and we call it 'free will' as people don't like it when things aren't named.

Metaphysics has 2 questions: "What's out there?" and "What is it like?"
The problem happens due to the fact that both the answers transcends what people can comprehend, and we do that in opposites. You can think that something is bad, because it's the opposite of good, and vice versa. If you think about it enough, you can understand that this is the basis of how we understand things.
It's outside the scope of our limited means to comprehend our entire universe, but when we start to gain evidences telling us what something is like we can conclude that that thing most likely exists. Existence is a requirement of character, something must exist in order for its properties to be measured. Often we postulate the existence of something based on discovering some aspect of it, some part of what it is "like", such as dark matter.
Quote
We cannot know what's out there, and we cannot know what its like, as both answers transcend this duality, which is out of our comprehension.

Therefore, this 'faith' is the closest thing that you can comprehend, of the answer to these two metaphysical questions. This faith, can also be whatever the person desires it to be.
We can know some of what's out there and some of the characteristics of those things we do perceive. Faith is always involved, though, as the component that allows us to accept what we perceive and move on from merely gathering evidence to acting on it. If we didn't believe the moon was there we could not have landed people on it, for instance.

While faith can be what each person desires, it's only beneficial to the person when it matches "reality" enough to allow interaction.

Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 28 January 2015, 02:01:48 »
I can't believe i actually seriously replied to a tp thread. help i've finally done it

Oh boy....

....
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 28 January 2015, 10:58:37 »
The thing is, you don't have proof that faith doesn't affect the world in a metaphysical point of view. In that case, you don't know how anything works, except the fact that you're alive and that *something* is causing you to do things and we call it 'free will' as people don't like it when things aren't named.

Metaphysics has 2 questions: "What's out there?" and "What is it like?"
The problem happens due to the fact that both the answers transcends what people can comprehend, and we do that in opposites. You can think that something is bad, because it's the opposite of good, and vice versa. If you think about it enough, you can understand that this is the basis of how we understand things.

We cannot know what's out there, and we cannot know what its like, as both answers transcend this duality, which is out of our comprehension.

Therefore, this 'faith' is the closest thing that you can comprehend, of the answer to these two metaphysical questions. This faith, can also be whatever the person desires it to be.

Faith is not something we understand.. Faith is accepting that we don't understand.. and giving whatever this "thing" may be a temporary value..  and thus continues our climb towards greater mass..

My view point is the same with regards to the "Truth" lies outside of our conscious awareness..   I attempt to explain why this is the case by referring to completeness, and how it can not be allowed to occur, because the would violate our ability to understand..


Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #60 on: Fri, 30 January 2015, 09:42:33 »
So.... From the delay in response I assume tp is formulating something epic that needs a lot of preparation?



Or just lost interest?



Or coming around to my way of thinking, maybe?

Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #61 on: Fri, 30 January 2015, 17:12:00 »
So.... From the delay in response I assume tp is formulating something epic that needs a lot of preparation?

Show Image


Or just lost interest?

Show Image


Or coming around to my way of thinking, maybe?

Show Image


I didn't see ur post..  h/o gimme a sec.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #62 on: Fri, 30 January 2015, 17:24:50 »
You are still mincing concepts trying to create the definition that covers both the magical and the non-magical universes.

Essentially, you're creating baseless rings to fit how you-THINK the planets are spinning.

If given infinite time and infinite rings, it can be done.. So while what you propose is a possibility, it still resides in the magical universe where physical laws are different..


Your examples do not contribute to your argument, because they are physical possibilities based on rules of this physical universe.

When you create these rings,  you're essentially saying, there's a magical and a non magical, and TOGETHER there is a larger connection that binds the two..

My faith is not to deny that possibility. My faith is to allow for the possibility that, the connection between the two is that they are NOT connected..

Because if we follow your flip switch logic, it would produce an infinite number of universes because as soon as you create 2 that are linked, the possibility for UNLINK must exist in contrast, otherwise the LINKED condition will become undefined.

^^ I don't particularly LIKE this method, though I can not disprove that it may be possible.

But the outcome again is the same,  if you create an infinite number of defined LINKED universe,  then all together, it is a single infinite universe.

So here we see my FAITH which fully deposes your methodology, it comes back to how YOU'RE cutting it up.. trying to understand it piece meal, while neglecting the Larger concept that the cutting had been arbitrary..



Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #63 on: Mon, 02 February 2015, 05:15:14 »
Nope. For the moment just talking about the physical.

If you consider the scientific method to be of value in answering the questions of metaphysics ("What's out there and what's it like?"), then here is a bit of logic for you (and please let me know at which step you lose track or find fault):

1. There are a few versions of the scientific method which apply in different situations, but they all include a step for "observation" / "research" and "testing" which gather evidence and they also include a step for "analysing the data" and then "drawing conclusions".
2. The result of the analysis of the evidence leads to a certain level of confidence. This is NEVER 100% due to the fact that we cannot include all the possible cases and objects affected by the hypothesis in our testing.
3. If you are convinced by the data that the hypothesis is true, you conclude just that. This is the step that requires faith and the level of confidence you have in the truth of the hypothesis is based on a combination of your worldview and the evidence you have gathered which support it (from both the research / observation steps and the testing steps).
4. Thus the level of faith required is inversely proportionate to the base level of existing belief and the amount and quality of supportive evidence, but there is always some faith required in order to conclude a hypothesis to be "true".
5. If you do not exercise this faith and draw a conclusion, the whole process has not been productive, since there is no final outcome. Since there is no final outcome, the hypothesis cannot then be used as a starting point for a further hypothesis.
6. There is thus no progress made. Isaac Newton once said: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Meaning that he has been able to formulate his own hypotheses based on the conclusions drawn by previous scientists (of their own hypotheses).
7. So, faith is a requirement for scientific progress and is integral to the scientific method.

Quote
My faith is to allow for the possibility that, the connection between the two is that they are NOT connected..

So you're saying that you believe that connection is non-connection? That's an obvious contradiction. I can see where faith comes into play there.... Lots of it... More than I have, at least. I'm not referring to two universes, just one with two components. One which exists within spacetime and one without.

Ah, Unity of Opposites. If a computer exists, what does it's opposite look like? Some things patently do not have opposites, yet they exist. It's an abstract philosophy that doesn't translate well into the real world. Also, be careful of heading too far into Dialectical Materialism... It's a path laid down by political propagandists, not clear-thinking philosophical scientists.
Buying more keycaps,
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Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #64 on: Mon, 02 February 2015, 05:15:29 »
I will now extend this into the non-physical. Again, please let me know at what step you find fault:
Let's look again at those questions of metaphysics: "What's out there?" and "What's it like?".
1. There is nothing in the questions that limits them to the physical, but simply to anything that can be detected / sensed / perceived.
2. If we do limit them to the physical, we create an artificial limit on the answers to these questions and thus we place limits on our understanding of the universe.
3. So it should be accepted that if there is the possibility of perceiving something other than the physical, then there is the possibility of the existence of something other than the physical.
4. If something can be perceived, evidence can be gathered, hypotheses derived, tests invented and applied, data analysed and conclusions drawn.
5. Drawing these conclusions has the same requirement as for physical phenomena, there is no distinction. There is evidence, there is a level of confidence and there can be conclusions drawn. This requires the same type of faith as any other conclusion for any other hypothesis.

In the end it comes down to the question of if something other than the physical can be perceived:

To state empirically that it cannot, since our conciousness is purely based in the physical construct of our brain, is again to place an artificial limit on your view of the universe.
1. It doesn't allow for the possibility that there could be some component of our consciousness that is not physical.
2. This has not and cannot be proven. Thus the possibility must exist.
3. If the possibility for our conciousness to have a non-physical component exists, the possibility for it to be able to perceive the non-physical must also exist.
4. Thus we must conclude that it is at least possible that the non-physical can be perceived.
5. If it can be perceived, it can be interacted with.
6. If it can be interacted with, it's just as "real" as the physical. In some senses it is even more "real", since it doesn't have the requirement of the existence of the physical and thus can continue to exist even if the physical is destroyed.

I see you're a multiverse supporter. I'm not. As soon as we can perceive the other universes, I'm all aboard, but until then, the theory makes no sense to me and I see it as being yet another ad-hoc theory created because the alternative doesn't fit the person's worldview. That's not science, it's denial. The energy requirement is the biggest flaw in the theory, although there are many. It stands purely as a philosphical hypothesis, not a scientific one for now.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #65 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 03:14:34 »
By order of post..

I disagree with the entire premise..

Even if existence occurs simultaneously with interactivity.. the perception of it must come after, EVEN if the perception itself is formed simultaneously..

So using the scientific method is futile. What's in question is not detection or analysis.. It is simply whether or not that-there-such-exist..  Analysis is already too late to say anything about what may have happened in the realm prior to existence.. BOTH of which may or may not have existed..

________

non-connection IS a connection..

There is the perceptible, the non-perceptible, the something-ceptible..

As far as "we've" studied and been able to work with, it's only been perceptible and non-perceptible...  a binary system of processing..

This something-ceptible is the missing element that keeps slipping by you.

____

I am not a multiverse or universe supporter..

That notion is wholly pointless..   a multiverse is a silly approximation of a whole.. To have a whole, there has to exist the possibility of half..  that's the entire concept

But we can not know for sure that possibility exist, because we can not know for sure ANYTHING at all, because knowing for-SURE would mean a Whole-Whole and that is undefined..

So, any mental notion of half or faith in half is again the result of binary processing. N-th order elements may exist, both incomprehensible and undetectable.. as those properties may very well be the ones exclusively defined or undefined by such elements.
 

Offline paicrai

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #66 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 03:27:23 »
does it look like this

this is my nightmare/dream
sliding terrorists
« Last Edit: Tue, 03 February 2015, 03:30:42 by paicrai »
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good **** go౦ԁ ****👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌**** right👌👌th 👌 ere👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯  i say so 💯  thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good ****

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #67 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 03:30:26 »
does it look like this
(Attachment Link)

nawh.. I haven't had an FPS dream since highschool..  didn't get into any serious FPS since then..


Offline paicrai

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #68 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 04:04:16 »
does it look like this
(Attachment Link)

nawh.. I haven't had an FPS dream since highschool..  didn't get into any serious FPS since then..
i spent 5 minutes of my **** talent for you to go "nawh"  :'(
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good **** go౦ԁ ****👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌**** right👌👌th 👌 ere👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯  i say so 💯  thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good ****

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #69 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 04:48:50 »
does it look like this
(Attachment Link)

nawh.. I haven't had an FPS dream since highschool..  didn't get into any serious FPS since then..
i spent 5 minutes of my **** talent for you to go "nawh"  :'(

hahaha

No one appreciates your input more than I..


Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #70 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 04:56:46 »
By order of post..

I disagree with the entire premise..

Even if existence occurs simultaneously with interactivity.. the perception of it must come after, EVEN if the perception itself is formed simultaneously..

So using the scientific method is futile. What's in question is not detection or analysis.. It is simply whether or not that-there-such-exist..  Analysis is already too late to say anything about what may have happened in the realm prior to existence.. BOTH of which may or may not have existed..


Right.... So how do we interact with the world around us? Do we send random signals out from our brain and ignore the signals from our senses because whatever they're "perceiving" may not exist any more at the time the signals arrive? Seriously, if the scientific method is futile, what method do you use?

Think about a baby. How does it learn to interact with others and the world around it? Describe the process. Compare it to the scientific method...

non-connection IS a connection..

Um... nope. Again, that's a contradiction. Non-connection is non-connection. Connection is connection. Non-connection is disconnection, ie the opposite of connection, something that is not connected to something else and has no connection between them...

There is the perceptible, the non-perceptible, the something-ceptible..

As far as "we've" studied and been able to work with, it's only been perceptible and non-perceptible...  a binary system of processing..

This something-ceptible is the missing element that keeps slipping by you.


Again, nope.. Not just that I disagree, but that you're wrong. There's only perceptible and possibly perceptible. You can't rule out the possibility of something being perceptible. If it exists, the possibility of it to be perceptible exists. The only way we can determine the likely existence of something is if it can be perceived, either directly or indirectly and simply because we have not yet been able to perceive something doesn't rule out either its possible existence or its possible perceptibility.

I am not a multiverse or universe supporter..

That notion is wholly pointless..   a multiverse is a silly approximation of a whole.. To have a whole, there has to exist the possibility of half..  that's the entire concept

But we can not know for sure that possibility exist, because we can not know for sure ANYTHING at all, because knowing for-SURE would mean a Whole-Whole and that is undefined..

So, any mental notion of half or faith in half is again the result of binary processing. N-th order elements may exist, both incomprehensible and undetectable.. as those properties may very well be the ones exclusively defined or undefined by such elements.

So you don't think the universe exists? What do you think DOES exist? What is your model of what there is outside of your own conciousness?

Start making sense, man. Or at least map out your connections between thoughts, you're just babbling. For instance "So, any mental notion of half or faith in half is again the result of binary processing." means absolutely nothing.

And something can only be "undetectable" if it doesn't exist, otherwise it becomes "possibly detectable" as I showed higher in my post.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #71 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 05:04:17 »
___________

We may or may-not interact with the world around us.. It may be perceptibly so, but I don't know for sure..

___________

Non-Connection is conditional upon the fact that a connection does not exist..  That itself is a connection with a term other than the elements in play..

There is no contradiction.. because complete non-connection is not possible, as is complete-anything..

Thus there will always be connections, thus non-connection is a connection to something..

____________


You are unable to separate perceptible and possibly-perceptible.. there fore your attempts at creating this silly cutoff is futile..

My segmentation is much more clear and distinct, and workable.


_________


If I knew of what was outside of my universe, I wouldn't bother having these dreams..

Possibly perceptible is indistinguishable from perceptible..

Offline azhdar

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #72 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 05:08:11 »
Last night I dreamed of M.Manson collecting walnuts with my family and me in the family walnut field. Can you freud analyse it pls tp4.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #73 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 06:22:23 »
___________

We may or may-not interact with the world around us.. It may be perceptibly so, but I don't know for sure..

___________

Non-Connection is conditional upon the fact that a connection does not exist..  That itself is a connection with a term other than the elements in play..

There is no contradiction.. because complete non-connection is not possible, as is complete-anything..

Thus there will always be connections, thus non-connection is a connection to something..

____________


You are unable to separate perceptible and possibly-perceptible.. there fore your attempts at creating this silly cutoff is futile..

My segmentation is much more clear and distinct, and workable.


_________


If I knew of what was outside of my universe, I wouldn't bother having these dreams..

Possibly perceptible is indistinguishable from perceptible..

It doesn't make a difference if the universe outside your conciousness exists or if it is all a simulation, you still interact with it. You have some information entering your conciousness and you send other information out. That is interaction. The way EVERYBODY does it is using some form of scientific method (to work out the "shape" of what you're trying to interact with), otherwise you could not interact with anything other than your own internal dialog and you'd essentially be a vegetable. You have enough trust that what you're attempting to interact with exists in order to do so. To deny this is nonsensical, unreasoning and lacking in all intelligence (capacity for logic).

You're abusing semantics to make invalid points. The term "connection" is of course course connected with the term "non-connection" because they are antitheses. Connectedness is NOT connected to non-connectedness, the only link is an abstract label which we use to be able to discuss them, not the essence of the thing itself.

Of course possibly perceptible is distinguishable from perceptible. If you perceive it, it is perceptable. Otherwise it is possibly perceptible. This is basic stuff.

Unless something of value or meaning is posted in reply, I believe I will let this lie here. I have more to say, but where there is no logic, there can be no logical discussion.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #74 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 06:33:32 »
It is you who deny the most basic of logic.

Tp4 functions on pure logic.. you function on anecdote based on the haphazard guesstimates of human detectors.. what a naive child..

All of your efforts and examples are only correct in the most narrowest of sense, that they are correct TO us..


That which you perceive and interact with is but a facet of reality..


I've not abused semantics, it is you who hold them too loosely.. You allow for secondary and tertiary underpinnings without explanation or any reasonable connection to prior case..

Your reality is not applicable, it is only fiction..

Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #75 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 06:50:51 »
...
All of your efforts and examples are only correct in the most narrowest of sense, that they are correct TO us..

As opposed to being correct to whom? Is it not enough that they are correct to US?

At least you admit what I am saying is correct.

...
Your reality is not applicable, it is only fiction..

If it is not applicable, how then do I interact with it? That is application of my reality in action.



Thank you, I'll get my coat at the door.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #76 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 07:04:03 »
Humans.. limits are not a problem.. accepting them is..

Anything may be correct, but correctness itself can only occur in the limited sense that whatever is temporarily or in-parallel unexplained is incorrect. Therefore both are incomplete approaches in that together they're whole, and the whole is undefined wholly to itself.. What is this 3rd element that denies both realities which preserves existence by not existing.

Your view is that we think and do.. <- try as you might, you can not confirm perception of every having thought or acted.

what binds these element together is that shorthand which you call faith.. but again you find it necessary to generalize that which we may not ever be able to understand.


Your can hide away in that coat all you like.. The fabric of reality remains cold as you have no way to perceive then prove it otherwise..



Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #77 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 07:23:55 »


It does not matter.
It is functional for life.
That means that "it works".

No need to prove it,
I am experiencing,
it is warm for me.

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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #78 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 07:48:41 »
Being alive is an arbitrary selection of energy states.


What we know will always be short of what we are..


Trapped..


Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #79 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 13:56:38 »
Being alive is a result of being pre-thought by the Creator and attached to a physical shell.

We know nothing until we become aware of and interact with Him. Then we can know who we are because He thought us, knows our identity completely and can be interacted with.

Free to think, having a solid absolute reference point, loved and at peace.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #80 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 14:14:11 »
I have to add that I am rather tired of the anti-theist atmosphere present in most intellectual circles, as if belief in God is reserved for idiots who don't (or can't) think, when the truth is that the theist position is more logical and has more supporting evidence in cosmogeny, cosmology, philosophy, biology and information theory among others, than the atheist position. Even putting aside the evidence, theism should at least be allowed as a possible intelligent option, simply because it IS possible, nothing in science or logic disallows it or makes it less tenable.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #81 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 14:49:06 »
I have to add that I am rather tired of the anti-theist atmosphere present in most intellectual circles, as if belief in God is reserved for idiots who don't (or can't) think, when the truth is that the theist position is more logical and has more supporting evidence in cosmogeny, cosmology, philosophy, biology and information theory among others, than the atheist position. Even putting aside the evidence, theism should at least be allowed as a possible intelligent option, simply because it IS possible, nothing in science or logic disallows it or makes it less tenable.

Don't change the subject..

a GOD is something that necessarily defies perception..

What you think of him is irrelevant. He is so far out of our reach, both conscious and physical, that it's only in hubris that lesser mortals pretended a GOD would give them a silly book full of silly instructions... then not update any of those instructions for thousands of years..

That book is more human than God..

God is way-way-way beyond us...


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #82 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 14:51:23 »
Being alive is a result of being pre-thought by the Creator and attached to a physical shell.

We know nothing until we become aware of and interact with Him. Then we can know who we are because He thought us, knows our identity completely and can be interacted with.

Free to think, having a solid absolute reference point, loved and at peace.

You have no assurance of any of that, all make believe..

It's but a momentary balm to qualm the overbearing interlude that is perceptible-life between eternal creation..

Offline Firebolt1914

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #83 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 15:14:44 »
As I said before, what people believe as 'God' is past our capabilities to understand; beyond duality.

Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #84 on: Wed, 04 February 2015, 01:42:16 »
Hmmm... interesting responses.

Well now.

If you consider the possibility that our conciousness has a non-physical component, then perception of and interaction with other non-physical entities becomes not only possible, but probable. And the scientific method can be applied to this interaction.



Have you ever heard of the Kalam cosmological argument? It goes something like this:

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2. The (physical) universe began to exist.
3. Therefore the (physical) universe has a cause.

Each point can be discussed, but there is no logical flaw. The only possible cause of a physical universe which subsists within a framework of spacetime is for the cause to be outside of such spacetime. A non-physical entity capable of creating the universe, in other words. This is the Creator, whatever other names you wish to ascribe to this entity, this is the definition.

The point of discussion now becomes "do we have a non-physical component?". I believe I dealt with this in a previous post, since self-awareness is pre-existing (this is present at the earliest point in our physical existence that it can be tested for), self is pre-existing. This pre-existing self must necessarily be non-physical.

So:
1. If a non-physical Creator entity exists and was the cause of the universe.
2. And if we have a non-physical component.
3. Perception of such an entity and interaction with such an entity is entirely possible.

Therefore it is entirely possible that we can perceive and interact with the Creator of the universe. The point of contact being non-physical makes this necessarily an interaction in the conciousness, rather than the physical (although since the Creator has the power to bring the universe into being, He is not limited to this, but we are).

However, scientific method can still be applied, since it doesn't matter whether the interaction is physical or not, as long as there is perception and the ability to interact, information coming in, action / information going out.

Therefore the faith required is the same.

As to having no assurance: Through applying scientific method, I CAN (and do) have assurance. Faith in God is scientific.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #85 on: Wed, 04 February 2015, 02:00:37 »
As I said before, what people believe as 'God' is past our capabilities to understand; beyond duality.

We cannot fully understand Him, I agree:

"Your [infinite] knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high above me, I cannot reach it." - Psalm 139:6
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord." - Isaiah 55:8

However, we can, through interaction, get to know parts of His nature and character. Just as we can know parts of the nature and character of anything else we can interact with.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #86 on: Thu, 05 February 2015, 12:24:04 »
As I said before, what people believe as 'God' is past our capabilities to understand; beyond duality.

We cannot fully understand Him, I agree:

"Your [infinite] knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high above me, I cannot reach it." - Psalm 139:6
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord." - Isaiah 55:8

However, we can, through interaction, get to know parts of His nature and character. Just as we can know parts of the nature and character of anything else we can interact with.

Hubris...  through and through...


God is big, as I mentioned, likely as large as slightly greater than half the universe..

You wish to know god..  silly humans...


Even assuming we are ourselves but a piece of god, to KNOW GOD.. come the ff on.. there isn't enough material to process KNOW-ing GOD, without simply BEING GOD..

In chasing simply KNOWING is a flaw, as it will forever remain incomplete.

Offline hking0036

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #87 on: Thu, 05 February 2015, 19:25:44 »
it's ****post central in here
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Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #88 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 01:47:08 »
As I said before, what people believe as 'God' is past our capabilities to understand; beyond duality.

We cannot fully understand Him, I agree:

"Your [infinite] knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high above me, I cannot reach it." - Psalm 139:6
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord." - Isaiah 55:8

However, we can, through interaction, get to know parts of His nature and character. Just as we can know parts of the nature and character of anything else we can interact with.

Hubris...  through and through...


God is big, as I mentioned, likely as large as slightly greater than half the universe..

You wish to know god..  silly humans...


Even assuming we are ourselves but a piece of god, to KNOW GOD.. come the ff on.. there isn't enough material to process KNOW-ing GOD, without simply BEING GOD..

In chasing simply KNOWING is a flaw, as it will forever remain incomplete.

Well, you're at least partly correct. Many times in the Bible it is said that to see God completely, to "look upon His face" would kill us. I suspect this is the limitation of our current physical form, our brain cannot handle the "size" of Him, as you say.

"But, He said, You can not see My face, for no man shall see Me and live." - Exodus 33:20

"No man has ever seen God at any time;" - John 1:18

"No man has at any time [yet] seen God." - 1 John 4:12

"Who alone has immortality [in the sense of exemption from every kind of death] and lives in unapproachable light, Whom no man has ever seen or can see." - 1 Timothy 6:16



However, if you're saying that because we cannot know EVERYTHING about Him, we cannot know ANYTHING about Him, then you're wrong.

The world is a big object. We cannot possibly know everything about it. But we do know a lot about it through observation and interaction. Likewise a person. We can know somebody without knowing everything there is to know about them. We have a point of contact and we gain more insight into who they really are through every interaction. Why would it be any different with God? We can discern His nature, personality, identity, through interaction. A slowly growing picture. As with anything and anyone we have contact with.

"For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand [f]fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been [g]fully and clearly known and understood [[h]by God]." - 1 Corinthians 13:12



TBH, I find it mildy amusing that I keep being told that it's impossible to do what I (and many millions of other people) have already done. Thankfully it's not our own efforts that allow this to happen, otherwise it would be impossible, but God himself desires interaction with us. He Himself made the connection, the point of contact, by sending Jesus. He is both God and man, someone who can stand between us and create the bridge. The only way to the Creator.

Left to our own devices we could never achieve this.
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Offline Air tree

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #89 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 02:22:02 »
I must say, this is one of the most interesting and entertaining threads I've read in a while. And I still have more posts to go through.

Offline Novus

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #90 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 02:29:08 »
I dream of red heads every night.

Offline paicrai

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #91 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 02:38:01 »
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #92 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 02:49:25 »
Ultimately there is no difference between knowing-god and being-god..

Assuming your arbitrary split, as long as you are of equivalent size, you will possess equivalent understanding.. at the very least equivalent capacity to understand should the need arise..

So then it comes down to , how much matter is enough to say, that's god..

I say approaching half the universe..


Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #93 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 03:38:26 »
Ultimately there is no difference between knowing-god and being-god..

Assuming your arbitrary split, as long as you are of equivalent size, you will possess equivalent understanding.. at the very least equivalent capacity to understand should the need arise..

So then it comes down to , how much matter is enough to say, that's god..

I say approaching half the universe..

Again you're making the assumption of complete knowledge vs partial knowledge. Complete knowledge, or even the possibility for complete knowledge is not a pre-requisite for partial knowledge.

To know tp is not the same as to be tp. Even if we to ever become "equivalent" to God (which we cannot because we will always be smaller), we would not be the same, just have the same abilities. We would still have individual "consciousness" / personality / identity.

Also, you're again making the assumption of the necessity of the physical for understanding / knowing. As I've shown, God is necessarily non-physical, yet he completely "knows" us. Knowledge is therefore not dependent on the physical, therefore knowledge is not dependent on the size of anything in the physical.

This is in line with the concept of the pre-existing self which does not need a physical form to exist.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #94 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 05:11:55 »
Ultimately there is no difference between knowing-god and being-god..

Assuming your arbitrary split, as long as you are of equivalent size, you will possess equivalent understanding.. at the very least equivalent capacity to understand should the need arise..

So then it comes down to , how much matter is enough to say, that's god..

I say approaching half the universe..

Again you're making the assumption of complete knowledge vs partial knowledge. Complete knowledge, or even the possibility for complete knowledge is not a pre-requisite for partial knowledge.

To know tp is not the same as to be tp. Even if we to ever become "equivalent" to God (which we cannot because we will always be smaller), we would not be the same, just have the same abilities. We would still have individual "consciousness" / personality / identity.

Also, you're again making the assumption of the necessity of the physical for understanding / knowing. As I've shown, God is necessarily non-physical, yet he completely "knows" us. Knowledge is therefore not dependent on the physical, therefore knowledge is not dependent on the size of anything in the physical.

This is in line with the concept of the pre-existing self which does not need a physical form to exist.

Yes it is..  Face it Ooobly.. By reading my thoughts.. I am already inside you.. you hear that..

A part of ME is inside of YOU... 

Who knows, we may even have entangled electrons in common..  perhaps entanglement is the glue to the universe to begin with..

THe point is.. KNOWING and BEING are not different, because KNOWING is physical..


COMPLETE understand vs Partial Understanding..   THat is no different than BEING part of or BEING all of..

But Again, we must caution against completion, as it is not a fully understood concept, is anything ever complete,  can anything ever be Split, is anything split..

Is there really a disconnect or a distance between us...

These are not things we know for sure.. these are not concrete facts.. 


Because every attempt to test it would involve the use of an approximation.. we could not produce a concrete understanding.. and thus.. in a completely indiscernible world..  there was NEVER a complete or an incomplete.. At best, it just is.. 

Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #95 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 06:08:54 »
...

THe point is.. KNOWING and BEING are not different, because KNOWING is physical..


COMPLETE understand vs Partial Understanding..   THat is no different than BEING part of or BEING all of..

...
Because every attempt to test it would involve the use of an approximation.. we could not produce a concrete understanding.. and thus.. in a completely indiscernible world..  there was NEVER a complete or an incomplete.. At best, it just is..


Why do we have to keep rehashing the same concepts?

There is a physical result of gaining data, connections made between neurons, but to become knowledge it is made coherent and meaningful by the non-physical conciousness. Knowledge is not confined to the physical, even if data processing and storage may be (although I don't believe these are, either). As I said, the Creator is necessarily non-physical, not limited to our physical limitations and yet He has knowledge.

So knowledge and being are not equivalent. Besides, even if you DO consider knowledge to be physical, writing created by you is not you. It is your thoughts interpreted through your own layers of translation from thought to written language, then re-interpreted through my own layers of literal understanding and interpretation and my own thought language. By the time they arrive in my conciousness, they are no longer "your" thoughts, but a simplified, many times interpreted version of them. They can only become a PART of me if I choose to accept them as true and include them in my worldview. As I said before, the overarching, controlling, core of self is non-physical and will not be changed by the physical except by choice. Even then, if I choose to add your thoughts to myself, you do not acess them, you don't have a pointer to the address of those thoughts, because they become my thoughts when assimilated. So you are not present there. This does not create an entanglement, there is no crossover of program pointers since they're operating in independent machines with independent users, merely a selective copying of data by choice.

The "ghost in the machine" is not the same as the data the machine accumulates, just as the abstract concept is not the same as the ability to create abstract concepts.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"concrete understanding", "complete". I agree. We come to a partial understanding, we use "approximations" to choose to be able to function. If we decide to wait for conclusive and complete understanding / proof of everything before accepting it to be true, we cannot act, only wait for eternity while we gather more and more evidence. This is the step of "faith" behind every action / interaction, which is required for functionality. We come to an acceptance of things being "true enough" to create tests / act. And we apply this method to everything we interact with.

This is how we "feel out" the shape of the universe we exist in.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #96 on: Fri, 06 February 2015, 08:40:35 »
Everything is confined if they are linked.

We casually use framing to analyze the what's what..  but if there was never a detachment, then the analysis itself was but a physical phenomenon..

Because these are all joint events, the analysis works in both ways.  What we analyze is looking back at us all the same, in the sense that this perceived acknowledgement of each other is the object of analysis for an even large frame looked upon by yet another larger self.

So we come back to this division, and whether or not it's a real thing.. Or is it only an arbitrary grouping of real things that are actually completely unique.

Offline Oobly

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Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #97 on: Mon, 09 February 2015, 08:07:40 »
If what are linked? Our thoughts? Our identities? In that case, yes, there's a disconnect. Consciousness is independent. I am me, you are you. We already know that the concept of self is present from birth, meaning the distinction between what is "me" and what is "everything else" exists. So the distiction between "me" and "you" exists, since "you" is part of "everything else". We start in a state of disconnection and slowly create connections through contact. These are limited connections, though, based on the amount of shared information and choices by both parties, they are not pre-existant, fundamental or "necessary" (existing by necessity, determined by natural laws).

If you mean knowing and being, then there is again a disconnect. Being just is (a binary static state, it exists, or it doesn't, such as a neuron with this level of connectivity to that neuron exists in this position and time), but knowing requires conscious analysis. The result of knowledge can then be stored as data, but for it to be knowledge it has to have gone through the process of analysis. It is always at least one level "removed" from plain data. It has the steps of analysis and decision making / faith applied to it, so it can become useful.
Knowledge is more meaningful than data. Knowledge can allow you to predict more data than was used to extrapolate the knowledge.

Just as the ability to hold the representation of an abstract concept in our brain does not equal the ability to create such abstract concepts, the physical existence and form of our brains cannot explain our ability to experience and choose.

"Moreover, it must be confessed that perception and that which depends upon it are inexplicable on mechanical grounds, that is to say, by means of figures and motions. And supposing there were a machine, so constructed as to think, feel, and have perception, it might be conceived as increased in size, while keeping the same proportions, so that one might go into it as into a mill. That being so, we should, on examining its interior, find only parts which work one upon another, and never anything by which to explain a perception." - Gottfried Leibniz

Consciousness (and more specifically, experience) has no explanation in physicalism. If you have to keep inventing ad-hoc additions to a hypothesis to make it work, that hypothesis is in trouble.

The only hypothesis that fits the data is some form of dualism.
« Last Edit: Mon, 09 February 2015, 08:30:43 by Oobly »
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.