Author Topic: This recurrent Dream I keep having  (Read 12151 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
This recurrent Dream I keep having
« on: Tue, 20 January 2015, 06:14:25 »
This is as much as I could remember from my dream of myself sitting and thinking..

Consciousness is -variability-, movements in a string, ups and downs, flips of switches..

For such chaos to exist and be definable, the opposing nature of equivalently perfected -order- must also exist..

-----note, I wrote (perfected order) not Perfect order.. one is a direction, the other is an undefinable finality..  they are different..

Now, If we step back and look at our inclinations.. All of that variability, Everything we think and do is in service of making ourselves Larger..

Inevitably, what does getting really really big accomplish..  -Gravitational collapse-.. What could be More Orderly than singularity state.

So it seems natural and fitting, that our variability compels us towards this perfected-order upon collapse.

However, the state of absolutely perfect order can not be maintained or even allowed to be reached because it would then become undefined wholly by itself.. 

Which is why ultimate collapse is the precise moment of ultimate explosion..

 _A_PROCESS_  must exist to convert from order to variability, this process makes up the fundamental laws of the universe.. we only currently know it as something that seems to link and apply to everything.. something like our understanding of entropy in terms of inclusiveness.


So if humans continue to grow, to reproduce, and eventually transcend beyond goopy flesh, beyond individuality..  We will still conceivably consistently increase in matter size and density..  because that's really all we know how-to-do.. and seem to want-to-do

Sigh..... thinking and doing seems most likely purposeless.... the meaning of life is the Latency between convergence states of the universe....

Even if the variability is truly random, that is to say, yea, man has a choice in HOW he meets his destiny..  the Ultimate destiny remains the same..  hit-restart


Sigh.... We may as well try to jump into black holes, since it is the surest, most efficient and fastest way to become part of ---Massive---..  and that's what's going to happen anyway..

I guess if we must exercise choice in efficiency,  we should jump into the largest black hole that we detect..


aghhh....

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 20 January 2015, 06:46:11 »
That ^^ is what I think about when I have no control over my faculties..

Here's another interpretation I've been working on.. (while awake).. when I try not to be bleak..


The universe collapsed and exploded any number of times..

Right before the cycle was about to recur.. Right before the final collection of matter was to be absorbed into the Singularity,  The Singularity pushed away and said:  " NO ".. Stay away from me..  Get out of here !!


And so the Singularity using sheer will, released exactly enough matter such that what surrounded him was precisely less than the singularity itself..

Using another bit of matter, it created the barrier between itself and all other matter..

And outside of this divide is where we live..



This is my modern-imagining of the God's grace..

He was a giant black hole..






Offline SpAmRaY

  • NOT a Moderator
  • * Certified Spammer
  • Posts: 14667
  • Location: ¯\(°_o)/¯
  • because reasons.......
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 20 January 2015, 06:58:43 »
I don't really dream. :(

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 20 January 2015, 07:02:13 »
I don't really dream. :(

well, do you learn new things everyday ?

I remember when I was addicted to this girlfriend I had once, and stopped reading books/ watching movies.  I also stopped dreaming, because I was not absorbing and arranging new information each day..

Offline rowdy

  • HHKB Hapster
  • * Erudite Elder
  • Posts: 21175
  • Location: melbourne.vic.au
  • Missed another sale.
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 20 January 2015, 13:12:03 »
It must be really weird to be tp4tissue.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline intelli78

  • Posts: 1503
  • Location: Seattle
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 20 January 2015, 13:17:14 »
Wut the fuq
Please consider carefully before you decide to comment, for Jesus.

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 21 January 2015, 04:34:09 »
This is as much as I could remember from my dream of myself sitting and thinking..

Consciousness is -variability-, movement in a string, ups and downs, flips of switches..

For such chaos to exist and be definable, the opposing nature of equivalently perfected -order- must also exist..

-----note, I wrote (perfected order) not Perfect order.. one is a direction, the other is an undefinable finality..  they are different..

Now, If we step back and look at our inclinations.. All of that variability, Everything we think and do is in service of making ourselves BIGGER..

Inevitably, what does getting really really big accomplish..  -Gravitational collapse-.. What could be More Orderly than singularity state.

So it seems natural and fitting, that our variability compels us towards this perfected-order upon collapse.

However, the state of absolutely perfect order can not be maintained or even allowed to be reached because it would then become undefined wholly by itself.. 

Which is why ultimate collapse is the precise moment of ultimate explosion..

 _A_PROCESS_  must exist to convert from order to variability, this process makes up the fundamental laws of the universe.. we only currently know it as something that seems to link and apply to everything.. something like our understanding of entropy in terms of inclusiveness.


So if humans continue to grow, to reproduce, and eventually transcend beyond goopy flesh, beyond individuality..  We will still conceivably consistently increase in matter size and density..  because that's really all we know how-to-do.. and seem to want-to-do

Sigh..... thinking and doing seems most likely purposeless.... the meaning of life is the Latency between convergence states of the universe....

Even if the variability is truly random, that is to say, yea, man has a choice in HOW he meets his destiny..  the Ultimate destiny remains the same..  hit-restart


Sigh.... We may as well try to jump into black holes, since it is the surest, most efficient and fastest way to become part of ---Massive---..  and that's what's going to happen anyway..

I guess if we must exercise choice in efficiency,  we should jump into the largest black hole that we detect..


aghhh....
Show Image


But conciousness is abstracted from physical existence. The process of impressing your own "variability" on the outside world is simply helping you to bring your conciousness into the physical from the abstract, it doesn't change the size of your conciousness, merely the size of the imprint. It also helps you to understand your own identity more by being able to experience it's effect on the visible, tangible realm. You're not getting bigger, you're just creating a larger impression. This is actually a feedback loop. Your experience of impressing your identity on the physical shows you who you are and allows fo you to alter the things you see that you don't like and want to change. Without seeing them it's hard to be aware of them.

Also, the impression fades with time, so you can allow it to shrink, simply by not acting. But action / decision is a core feature of identity. This is how you "become" yourself (it's really more discovering than becoming), by deciding and acting and experiencing, adjusting and repeating the process.

Quote ascribed to C.S. Lewis: "You don't have a soul. You ARE a soul. You have a body."
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 21 January 2015, 04:44:49 »
I'm not sure I read you correctly..

You're saying I possess some element completely detached from physical reality??

Consciousness is an Abstraction only by feel. .but it IS a real object, which one can touch, feel, and alter..

You cannot gain MORE consciousness without a physical upgrade of the brain..

And that's exactly what evolution does for us..

We breed more people because parallel processing is energy efficient..


We are now entering the computer era to transition our intellectual faculties into a more durable, persistent system..


If you extrapolate this.. it GETS BIGGER..

The humans did not become clever by a method.. humans became clever because our neocortex Physically GREW LARGER..


I am not an independent construct.. I am a member of the parallel processing team.

and Together,  we've done nothing but get bigger..

I can't see that there's anything to any pursuit, be it wealth, intellect, or transcendence, which does not simply involve MORE SPACE for more processes..

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 21 January 2015, 06:21:05 »
I'm not sure I read you correctly..

You're saying I possess some element completely detached from physical reality??

Consciousness is an Abstraction only by feel. .but it IS a real object, which one can touch, feel, and alter..

You cannot gain MORE consciousness without a physical upgrade of the brain..

And that's exactly what evolution does for us..

We breed more people because parallel processing is energy efficient..


We are now entering the computer era to transition our intellectual faculties into a more durable, persistent system..


If you extrapolate this.. it GETS BIGGER..

The humans did not become clever by a method.. humans became clever because our neocortex Physically GREW LARGER..


I am not an independent construct.. I am a member of the parallel processing team.

and Together,  we've done nothing but get bigger..

I can't see that there's anything to any pursuit, be it wealth, intellect, or transcendence, which does not simply involve MORE SPACE for more processes..

You're confusing processing power / intelligence with self awareness / conciousness. Conciousness is not a tangible object. Just like infinity, it's abstract.

You'd still be yourself if you didn't post on GH. But because you do, you are imprinting your conciousness on the existences of others and through action and interaction both discovering your soul / identity and revealing it to others.

I am working from the premise of a pre-existing identity which is revealed through life. You seem to be working from the premise of no pre-existing identity, your consciousness simply a product of your physical makeup and environment.

Which one of these do you feel is more accurate? Why do people fear non-existence?

Are we just electrochemical machines? If so, true decision-making does not exist, every choice is already decided, an electrochemical process with no external involvement. There is no free will. People cannot decide to rather use an ErgoDox or not. They are set up by their biology and environment to have a decision made in their head (according to the laws of physics) to prefer one keyboard over another. This view also doesn't allow for innovation, since that require concious, unorthodox (not standard pattern based on environment) linking of unrelated ideas to create a new one.

If you follow this philosophy, everything becomes meaningless, including love. Yet deep down you know love matters, you know people matter, you feel in your inner soul (identity) when something just isn't right or when something really is. There is meaning, there is value. "You're worth it" as they say in the adverts.

Your reference to "variability" shows your true view. That variability is the influence of free will (the abstract conciousness) on the external (physical).

And why then does brain size not determine levels of conciousness and self awareness, innovation and intelligence? Neanderthal had larger brain size than Homo Sapiens. Whales have 8kg brains. It's not body to brain ratios, either. Humans are in between lions and hippos on that scale.

Have you ever watched a baby growing and learning? I have. It simply confirmed in me the concept that the identity of the child is pre-existing and the connections between this conciousness and the physical body / brain simply strengthen as they grow and learn. Their identity shines through more and more as they gain more and more reference points and means of expression. I have seen it in my own child and in those of my friends.

It pays off to learn from those who have gone before. Solomon went on this same journey of philosophy. "Meaningless, meaningless! All is meaningless.", "There is nothing new under the sun." He echoes the ancient Greek philosphers, who put great value on thought and philosophy, but little on innovation, for the simple reason that their worldview was cyclical. No innovation allowed. But yet they did innovate. They even had a steam driven vehicle in AD70 used in parades in Alexandria. But their philosophy prevented them from doing anything truly useful with the technology (and developing first century cars, for instance), since innovation was meaningless, all comes around again. There is no progress.

Yet Solomon finishes the same book with the words to remember God before you grow old, and that the purpose of life is to "Fear Him and do his commands". The existence of an external intelligence is assumed, an abstract "soul" which is the seat of free will and allows for innovation, progress, hope and meaning.

"_A_PROCESS_  must exist to convert from order to variability" you said. This can only be achieved by something outside the system having an influence.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 21 January 2015, 08:08:50 »
There's no conclusive proof as to indeterminacy..

You can not make those claims about consciousness as if you know it.. You do not..


My personal inclination is towards -the electrochemical machine-

But I don't reject the possibility that there could exist MAGIC. which is essentially what you're proposing..

Conceptually, if a universe was a machine completely without magic, then the complementary all-magic universe must exist..


Old philosophers were no better at understanding the world as anyone today. we simply have not invented the tools to do so..



Following philosophies.. on this subject, it's difficult to gauge what that means, because no one can choose to perfectly emulate any pre-existing occurrence be it material or conscious. There is uniqueness in frame analysis, but our total awareness level is too narrow to even begin to tap into what one would presume to be the universal ether..

I call it that, it's a mere place holder..


I find your interpretations flawed and self serving.. you want to extract a point-of-reference out of what may be an infinite continuity.. slap a label on it and move on.. that's not what it is, and certainly not the end of it.


The identity of a child.. pre-existing.. well.. each rock is pre-existing and they are as far as we can tell completely unique..  Your child's uniqueness and personality is neither more complex nor at all rare..


"I am working from the premise of a pre-existing identity which is revealed through life. You seem to be working from the premise of no pre-existing identity, your consciousness simply a product of your physical makeup and environment."


---------- I do not see how a pre-existing identity revealed through life conflicts with it being the consequence of physical makeup and environment..


Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

  • The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3026
  • Location: NCC-1701, USS Enterprise
  • Live long and prosper
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 21 January 2015, 08:10:36 »
It must be really weird to be tp4tissue.

It must be really weird to be tp4tissue.

quoted twice for true truth...
tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

IBM Model M SSK | IBM Model F XT | IBM Model F 122 | IBM Model M 122 | Ducky YOTD 2012 w/ blue switches | Poker II w/ Blue switches | Royal Kludge RK61 w/ Blue switches

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 21 January 2015, 08:16:02 »
It must be really weird to be tp4tissue.

It must be really weird to be tp4tissue.

quoted twice for true truth...

You know... I "have-had" and gone through the same thoughts and play that the rest of the world engages in...

I ate school lunch, I talked with friends, I played vidya, I kissed girls..

I've gone through all those processes a plenty..

If you find me weird, I'm not offended, but a more accurate description would be that Tp4 is merely further down the rabbit hole..

This is where everyone ends up given enough time to think.. 

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

  • The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3026
  • Location: NCC-1701, USS Enterprise
  • Live long and prosper
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 21 January 2015, 08:18:15 »
It must be really weird to be tp4tissue.

It must be really weird to be tp4tissue.

quoted twice for true truth...
a more accurate description would be that Tp4 is merely further down the rabbit hole..

I can't argue with that...

tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

IBM Model M SSK | IBM Model F XT | IBM Model F 122 | IBM Model M 122 | Ducky YOTD 2012 w/ blue switches | Poker II w/ Blue switches | Royal Kludge RK61 w/ Blue switches

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 22 January 2015, 08:44:21 »
There's no conclusive proof as to indeterminacy..

You can not make those claims about consciousness as if you know it.. You do not..


My personal inclination is towards -the electrochemical machine-

But I don't reject the possibility that there could exist MAGIC. which is essentially what you're proposing..

Conceptually, if a universe was a machine completely without magic, then the complementary all-magic universe must exist..


Old philosophers were no better at understanding the world as anyone today. we simply have not invented the tools to do so..



Following philosophies.. on this subject, it's difficult to gauge what that means, because no one can choose to perfectly emulate any pre-existing occurrence be it material or conscious. There is uniqueness in frame analysis, but our total awareness level is too narrow to even begin to tap into what one would presume to be the universal ether..

I call it that, it's a mere place holder..


I find your interpretations flawed and self serving.. you want to extract a point-of-reference out of what may be an infinite continuity.. slap a label on it and move on.. that's not what it is, and certainly not the end of it.


The identity of a child.. pre-existing.. well.. each rock is pre-existing and they are as far as we can tell completely unique..  Your child's uniqueness and personality is neither more complex nor at all rare..


"I am working from the premise of a pre-existing identity which is revealed through life. You seem to be working from the premise of no pre-existing identity, your consciousness simply a product of your physical makeup and environment."


---------- I do not see how a pre-existing identity revealed through life conflicts with it being the consequence of physical makeup and environment..

If you head too far down the electrochemical machine path you end up at nihilism. This is the logical conclusion of closed-box naturalism, of uniformitarianism. If you do not allow the possibility of "magic", something abstract, outside of the directly observable physical, then you end up in hopelessness and meaninglessness. You have to then create your own meaning, knowing all the time that's it's arbitrary and not based on anything of actual value. Essentially just a diversion, a lie.

A rock is... a rock? There is no abstract form of pre-existence of a rock, it's just a physical object. The body of a person, likewise. However, I am presupposing an identity, independent of the physical body, which shapes the neural connections and ultimate form of the brain as much as the starting form and external environment does and continues to exist after the physical is deconstructed, since it's not a physical entity and is not based on a physical structure.

If this is true, our awareness must encompass more than just the physical and have at least some small sensitivity to this abstract "other", since at it's core it's made of the same stuff.

I definitely do want to extract a point of reference, but not necessarily name it as a starting point, rather study it's nature and my relation to it and so gain a better understanding of my own nature. I have succeeded at least in part in doing this, in starting a dialogue, cultivating a sensitivity to this entity, which is precisely what I believe Solomon was encouraging people to do. And, having gained some insight into it's character and methods can indeed put a name to it, since it has been named by others before me and the nature matches. I have a point of contact with the creator of the universe, which is... pretty awesome, really. I cannot accept the non-existence of an identity which is other than myself and can and do have active, meaningful dialogue with. This is thus the worldview that I hold and interpret everything through.

If identity is pre-existing it cannot be the consequence of physical makeup and environment by definition.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 22 January 2015, 09:47:23 »
You are letting emotions get the best of you.. Why is hopelessness and meaninglessness a problem. I've myself accept the abyss and remain quite content.. I don't seek to create my own meaning.. I've already exclaimed that my belief leans toward determinacy.

Your presumption about what one must do in such a state of hopelessness is also questionable. If I am to accept all occurrences as arbitrary, then diversion from the one path is impossible.


There certainly is an abstract form of a rock.. Think of a rock.. there it is.. an abstract rock.. and it perfectly conforms with your soul-concept..

You assume independence to suit your fancy and make a point, yet offer no evidence as to why that is possible.

Our awareness and our body are dependent. just as.. if there hadn't been this big earth rock beneath you, we would not be ass-parked..


The flaw in mentality here is to limit oneself to mere application of mind. Extraction of reference being the ONLY THING that mind is capable of, does not qualify it to discern reality.


Physical makeup has neither a beginning nor an end.. It's only too human to presume so.. Systemless-ness (abyss) allows for consequential identity and the perceptual field of pre-existence, which is a far better fit than the endless swipes and nibbles of looking-out.

Offline Firebolt1914

  • POM Overlord
  • Posts: 703
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 22 January 2015, 14:35:22 »
what is this thread :confused: :confused: :confused:

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

  • The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3026
  • Location: NCC-1701, USS Enterprise
  • Live long and prosper
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 22 January 2015, 14:37:29 »
what is this thread :confused: :confused: :confused:

it's a tp thread... it's exactly as is expected of him...
tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

IBM Model M SSK | IBM Model F XT | IBM Model F 122 | IBM Model M 122 | Ducky YOTD 2012 w/ blue switches | Poker II w/ Blue switches | Royal Kludge RK61 w/ Blue switches

Offline Firebolt1914

  • POM Overlord
  • Posts: 703
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 22 January 2015, 14:38:11 »
what is this thread :confused: :confused: :confused:

it's a tp thread... it's exactly as is expected of him...

I'm gonna read what he's saying, I'm going in.

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

  • The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3026
  • Location: NCC-1701, USS Enterprise
  • Live long and prosper
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 22 January 2015, 14:38:32 »
what is this thread :confused: :confused: :confused:

it's a tp thread... it's exactly as is expected of him...

I'm gonna read what he's saying, I'm going in.

RIP FIREBOLT
tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

IBM Model M SSK | IBM Model F XT | IBM Model F 122 | IBM Model M 122 | Ducky YOTD 2012 w/ blue switches | Poker II w/ Blue switches | Royal Kludge RK61 w/ Blue switches

Offline Firebolt1914

  • POM Overlord
  • Posts: 703
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 22 January 2015, 14:45:17 »
You are letting emotions get the best of you.. Why is hopelessness and meaninglessness a problem. I've myself accept the abyss and remain quite content.. I don't seek to create my own meaning.. I've already exclaimed that my belief leans toward determinacy.

Your presumption about what one must do in such a state of hopelessness is also questionable. If I am to accept all occurrences as arbitrary, then diversion from the one path is impossible.

Why do we have to 'accept the abyss'? Isn't the point of life to create your own story, to what you want it to be? Your consciousness has the ability to choose between two things. While one may argue that those choices are predestined, and you're just given the illusion of choice, that's still more interesting than accepting the abyss, aka doom.

Speaking from experience, I believe that the human consciousness/sub-consciousness is able to create, and get out of hopelessness.

(I may not have read properly)

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 22 January 2015, 17:18:10 »
You are letting emotions get the best of you.. Why is hopelessness and meaninglessness a problem. I've myself accept the abyss and remain quite content.. I don't seek to create my own meaning.. I've already exclaimed that my belief leans toward determinacy.

Your presumption about what one must do in such a state of hopelessness is also questionable. If I am to accept all occurrences as arbitrary, then diversion from the one path is impossible.

Why do we have to 'accept the abyss'? Isn't the point of life to create your own story, to what you want it to be? Your consciousness has the ability to choose between two things. While one may argue that those choices are predestined, and you're just given the illusion of choice, that's still more interesting than accepting the abyss, aka doom.

Speaking from experience, I believe that the human consciousness/sub-consciousness is able to create, and get out of hopelessness.

(I may not have read properly)

You've read correctly..  I am the Anti-- YOU..

I don't think your beliefs are wrong, only that there is no indications that they are right..

and my point above is that, regardless of what you choose.. the destination is the same..

Prior to this post I explained how the general consequence of choice inevitably leads to an increase in Mass and Density..  Eventually, our need for mass to further ourselves will exceed the ability to escape gravity, hence collapse..


You might have to read from the beginning..

Offline Firebolt1914

  • POM Overlord
  • Posts: 703
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 22 January 2015, 18:27:30 »
The only thing that isn't different from us is our love of rice :D

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 01:37:49 »
You are letting emotions get the best of you.. Why is hopelessness and meaninglessness a problem. I've myself accept the abyss and remain quite content.. I don't seek to create my own meaning.. I've already exclaimed that my belief leans toward determinacy.

Your presumption about what one must do in such a state of hopelessness is also questionable. If I am to accept all occurrences as arbitrary, then diversion from the one path is impossible.


There certainly is an abstract form of a rock.. Think of a rock.. there it is.. an abstract rock.. and it perfectly conforms with your soul-concept..

You assume independence to suit your fancy and make a point, yet offer no evidence as to why that is possible.

Our awareness and our body are dependent. just as.. if there hadn't been this big earth rock beneath you, we would not be ass-parked..


The flaw in mentality here is to limit oneself to mere application of mind. Extraction of reference being the ONLY THING that mind is capable of, does not qualify it to discern reality.


Physical makeup has neither a beginning nor an end.. It's only too human to presume so.. Systemless-ness (abyss) allows for consequential identity and the perceptual field of pre-existence, which is a far better fit than the endless swipes and nibbles of looking-out.

That's a good analogy. In order for the abstract pre-existent form to come into being, however, requires a higher intelligence with creative abilities, which is itself a conciousness / identity. The ability to create, to innovate and progress requires something not present in the physical. It REQUIRES the abstract to exist. My belief is that this ability that we have to do so stems from our identities having been "thought" by an even higher intelligence than ourselves and is not inherent in nature, in fact not possible to come about through entirely natural processes.

You claim there are no indications that our beliefs are right, yet I claim that I have personal experience of evidences for them that are overwhelming and indisputable to me, so it is wholly legitimate for me to hold the beliefs I do and there is nothing wrong in letting it be known that I have (internally) indisputable evidence for these beliefs. Of course it colours my interpretation of other evidences and my expression of thought and concepts, but that's true of everyone. Everyone has a worldview they filter everything through in both directions. Some are simply not aware of it or, being aware of it, claim that they don't let it affect their reasoning, thought or expression, but it's simply not possible to do that with 100% effectiveness.

If you start to live out those beliefs, though, the impact you have on the world around you is very different. What good does meaninglessness and hopelessness do for those you have contact with? Good doesn't even have any absolute meaning in that context, nothing does. If there are no absolutes, no reference points, no meaningful values, things like human rights do not exist. This is what you get to when you follow this path. Emptiness, fear and despair with no possible relief. But hope does exist, faith does exist, love does exist. And they each are recognised by every person, so there has to be a reference, an absolute that can be recognised and responded to. And they have positive impact, creating more love, more faith, more hope. To deny this is to deny your "humanity", the best parts of what makes a person a human being rather than an animal. It is this, rather than simply intelligent thought that sets us apart.

I still say that choice does not lead to an increase of mass or density. It merely leads to an increase in the self-awareness of the chooser, a larger imprint of their identity on the physical / external to self, but that it's simply a change of form, an increase in INFORMATION, not an actual increase in volume or mass. Your entire identity already exists in abstract form and you are simply discovering more of it through decision-making and allowing it to have more of an impact on the world outside. Information is abstract and has no physical mass.

I belief you are conflating the physical and abstract.

I must also emphasise the difference between data and information. Data is simply a collection of abstract concepts that has some size. Information is data that has meaning. Nature can create an increase in data, but that is not the same as an increase in information. Creation of information requires intelligence.

It's our intake of food that leads to an increase in mass ;) Density is very hard to increase, though, but as long as you can turn some fat into muscle you can increase it very slightly.
« Last Edit: Fri, 23 January 2015, 02:36:17 by Oobly »
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 01:55:39 »
Of course I'm conflating the physical and the abstract.

Abstraction is what consciousness is. whether this consciousness extends through a Universal Machinery the size of the universe,  OR is analyzed in segments limited to a human-frame, it still requires a computational mechanism.

The abstract does not independently exist of physical systems. Continuously History demonstrates that previous abstractions were merely interplay between hard to detect physical forces and systems.


Your beliefs only make you real to youself.. it does not make you real to me.. As far as I am concerned. The center of the universe may as well be Tp4.. It'd make no difference because @ my current Mass, I am not spec-ed to grasp much beyond that..


I don't disagree that faith, hope, and love exist as constructs..  I am saying they are born upon walking the same domino path..  There is no grand plan with a separate endings.. There is but 1 end.. 

Since they come from the same place as anything else, they must too conform to the reality that was set in motion.


You've churned out ceaselessly new distracting terms that you have no patience to resolve. They're but noise.. and it is the one song you hear..

I suggest listening to the abyss as I have.. and in the void, find reason..

Offline bowji

  • Posts: 259
  • Location: S. Korea
  • Came for the Keycaps, stayed for the community.
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 02:06:07 »
 :confused:
Im not sure Im on the same page but I just wanted to chime in to say its the uncertainty that gives our life meaning. Simply knowing what will happen tomorrow, next month or few years down the road will be boring. Its like sitting at the front or end of the rollercoaster, sitting on the end is more exciting/thrilling.
That being said, whether or not the destination is same or different for everyone, its the JOURNEY to the destination that counts.
Its the journey that we remember and look forward to.
               FREE GIRLDC!!     코리안 스레드

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 02:19:33 »
:confused:
Im not sure Im on the same page but I just wanted to chime in to say its the uncertainty that gives our life meaning. Simply knowing what will happen tomorrow, next month or few years down the road will be boring. Its like sitting at the front or end of the rollercoaster, sitting on the end is more exciting/thrilling.
That being said, whether or not the destination is same or different for everyone, its the JOURNEY to the destination that counts.
Its the journey that we remember and look forward to.

Bowji.. I'm still slightly angry about samsung data migration software.. and since you're the only confirmed internet corean I no, I am holding you responsible...

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 03:56:45 »
Of course I'm conflating the physical and the abstract.

Abstraction is what consciousness is. whether this consciousness extends through a Universal Machinery the size of the universe,  OR is analyzed in segments limited to a human-frame, it still requires a computational mechanism.

The abstract does not independently exist of physical systems. Continuously History demonstrates that previous abstractions were merely interplay between hard to detect physical forces and systems.


I disagree. Consciousness is the ability to CREATE the abstract, they are not interchangeable. The information representing a rock is not the same as the process of creating that information. The computational machinery is required to flesh out the seed of the concept into its final form, but the seed is still external to the mechanism. A computer needs a user to input meangingful information, GIGO.

Citations, please. This is quite a claim and I believe very hard to find evidence for. True abstractions are hard to test for, since they have so little (or no) impact on the physical unless they are acted on.

Quote
Your beliefs only make you real to youself.. it does not make you real to me.. As far as I am concerned. The center of the universe may as well be Tp4.. It'd make no difference because @ my current Mass, I am not spec-ed to grasp much beyond that..

This represents an incomplete and immature self-awareness. This is level 3 self awareness, identity of self. Level 5 includes the perspective of others of yourself (the "meta" self), which obviously includes the realisation and acceptance of the existence and identity of others.

Quote
I don't disagree that faith, hope, and love exist as constructs..  I am saying they are born upon walking the same domino path..  There is no grand plan with a separate endings.. There is but 1 end.. 

Since they come from the same place as anything else, they must too conform to the reality that was set in motion.

I respectfully disagree. They have no meaning and no place in a universe that has no references, absolutes or meaning. I do agree that there is one end in the physical. Death comes to us all, but I don't believe the conciousness ends with the dissolution of the physical, because I believe the abstract is not dependent on the physical.

Quote
You've churned out ceaselessly new distracting terms that you have no patience to resolve. They're but noise.. and it is the one song you hear..

I suggest listening to the abyss as I have.. and in the void, find reason..

Which terms would like me to clarify for you?

Some more interesting related info:

"Right from birth infants are able to differentiate the self from the non-self." - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291099-0917%28199709/12%296:3/4%3C105::AID-EDP150%3E3.0.CO;2-U/abstract;jsessionid=E5E47AE1570B594DA73AD2DAC4B26333.f01t03

So, if a baby can differentiate self from non-self, there is cognitive knowledge of identity before the neural network has received external training. There is self-awareness, which obviously requires a "self" to be aware of. Surely this is evidence of the pre-existence of the identity?

@bowji: The journey certainly is not boring, and there's a lot to enjoy along the way, but I don't believe the journey ends at the point of death, but that death is merely one step, a door you go through along the way. I take the long view...

... Your consciousness has the ability to choose between two things. While one may argue that those choices are predestined, and you're just given the illusion of choice, that's still more interesting than accepting the abyss, aka doom.

Speaking from experience, I believe that the human consciousness/sub-consciousness is able to create, and get out of hopelessness.

(I may not have read properly)

I agree with you, although I do take it further and posit that the ability to create and to choose (creativity and free will) is what defines us as human, differentiates us from animals and is evidence of the independence of the conciousness and the physical. The more we exercise them, the more aware we become of our identity and the more we become ourselves, and thus, more human. These are the cornerstones of progress, both personal and cultural.

P.S. - you're very brave.  ;)

@tp: imagine if Dox hadn't exercised his creativity and decision-making. What would you be typing on?


« Last Edit: Fri, 23 January 2015, 03:59:54 by Oobly »
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline bowji

  • Posts: 259
  • Location: S. Korea
  • Came for the Keycaps, stayed for the community.
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 04:01:32 »
Bowji.. I'm still slightly angry about samsung data migration software.. and since you're the only confirmed internet corean I no, I am holding you responsible...
Show Image


LOL! sorry, even I dont use samsung  :p
The only thing samsung I own is my monitor, and thats because its cheap...
Even my phone is from apple   :-*
               FREE GIRLDC!!     코리안 스레드

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 08:12:42 »
Consciousness doesn't create anything..

Nothing is either created or destroyed..

An abstraction is the fringe of what any form of consciousness is capable of.. and that consciousness is derivative of a physical system. It is but one form of energy reaction.

There's no conclusive PROOF of this ur right.. They have not totally disproved magic, which is the same as to say they have not totally disproved anti-everything..

There has been however numerous studies done by brain surgeons by placing electrodes directly on patient's brain, while their head was literally open..

The result was conclusive in various ways when certain areas of the brain associated with specific processing was disrupted.. the patients could remember 1 type of memory or perform 1 type of calculation, but not others...  This is again, not a PROOF in the metaphysical sense, but it's certainly convincing enough definitively say, at least humans are pretty -un-magical-..


--Levels of awareness:--

I know people love levels.. and just as everyone wants to be middle-class, it's in most cases NOT true..

Even if I could Imagine a -level 5- awareness.. I can not say for myself that it exists. because it requires external proof, of which I can not be SURE is real..

Lvl 5, as it is defined, can not be proven to oneself.. 

and if you argue that your LEAP OF FAITH is enough to get you there..  Then you are not self aware at all.. you're just moth to a flame..



Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 09:32:16 »
Consciousness doesn't create anything..

Nothing is either created or destroyed..

Um... what? What then do you call the process of inspiration, cultivation and production that brings an object into being that did not previously exist in that form? I call that creation. I had an idea for a keyboard, I cultivated the idea, got out my tools and created it. It is now a thing that did not exist in that form before (an ordered, structured thing that performs a task it was specifically designed to do by an intelligence / conciousness). And it can be "destroyed" by altering its form enough that it doesn't do the job it was DESIGNED and CREATED for any more.

At this point it seems that you're just saying random stuff... Unless you can explain this in some way that makes sense?

Quote
An abstraction is the fringe of what any form of consciousness is capable of.. and that consciousness is derivative of a physical system. It is but one form of energy reaction.

There's no conclusive PROOF of this ur right.. They have not totally disproved magic, which is the same as to say they have not totally disproved anti-everything..

There has been however numerous studies done by brain surgeons by placing electrodes directly on patient's brain, while their head was literally open..

The result was conclusive in various ways when certain areas of the brain associated with specific processing was disrupted.. the patients could remember 1 type of memory or perform 1 type of calculation, but not others...  This is again, not a PROOF in the metaphysical sense, but it's certainly convincing enough definitively say, at least humans are pretty -un-magical-..

Turning the computer off does not make the user disappear. Just disrupts the connection. The brain is the interface between the conciousness and the body, in my view of things.

Quote
--Levels of awareness:--

I know people love levels.. and just as everyone wants to be middle-class, it's in most cases NOT true..

Even if I could Imagine a -level 5- awareness.. I can not say for myself that it exists. because it requires external proof, of which I can not be SURE is real..

Lvl 5, as it is defined, can not be proven to oneself.. 

and if you argue that your LEAP OF FAITH is enough to get you there..  Then you are not self aware at all.. you're just moth to a flame..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

Developmental stages. Level 0 to 5. In order to interact with the real world you have to have the belief that it exists. You don't have to be sure that other people are real to interact with them, but the interaction itself provides EVIDENCE that they are.

Most of life is based on "leaps of faith". You gather enough evidence to derive a hypothesis, build a test (or simply decide to perform an action if you're not consciously testing it) and perform it. The results of that action either reinforce or diminish the belief in the hypothesis. It cannot be proven, only disproven. This is the scientific method, which we use for practically everything and REQUIRES faith. The "laws" of physics are really just hypotheses which have a lot of evidence backing them. The evidence doesn't PROVE the hypothesis, but it does provide a measure of confidence in the truth of it, through faith.

Science and faith are not, and never have been separate. Science INCLUDES faith.

The scientific process / method applies to matters of "spiritual" / "magical" / "supernatural" faith in the same way, at least it has in my experience. In that sense my own faith, my own belief in "magic" is not "blind" and it is certainly not "empty". It is experiential and tried and tested. There is very solid evidence backing my belief.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 09:42:37 »
No none of those things are creation.. They are natural conclusions by repetitiously following simple patterns..

Complexity is an illusion..


Turning off the computer DOES mean the User disappears..  the User requires the computer, as much as the computer requires the User..

When you turned away from GH or turned off your computer.. I have no assurance that you still exist.. I can not even tell if you're the same person talking to me right now..

I can assume those things on -faith-, doesn't make them real..


What life is based on, vs what life is, vs the limit of what consciousness can detect, vs what consciousness can appreciably detect OF LIFE...


You are mixing all of these things together based ONLY on faith.. realize how vapid such notions may be, if anything it's too little, on in extremes it may even be nothing.

You've got your whole comprehension pegged on imaginary..

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 13:38:43 »
No none of those things are creation.. They are natural conclusions by repetitiously following simple patterns..
Interesting...

Could perhaps enlighten me as to what simple patterns and how much repetition led the existence of my DIY ergo keyboard? I'd like to know so I don't have to put so much of my own effort and energy into the next of my designs.

Quote
Complexity is an illusion..

Well, everything seems to be in your worldview, so this is not surprising.

What was that variability you spoke of in the OP then? IMHO it's the factor that creates complexity. Or if it truly doesn't exist, could you please show us the simplicity of everything?

Quote
Turning off the computer DOES mean the User disappears..  the User requires the computer, as much as the computer requires the User..
In your worldview which only allows the physical, sure, but not in mine that is larger and includes the possibility of having something to hope for.

Quote
When you turned away from GH or turned off your computer.. I have no assurance that you still exist.. I can not even tell if you're the same person talking to me right now..

I can assume those things on -faith-, doesn't make them real..

Agreed, you have no assurance of it, but you do have repeated evidence for it in the fact that I reply (and reply in the same stylistic tone), enough to be considered scientifically "likely". As I said, all hypotheses require faith, some more, some less, depending on how much convicing you need for each hypothesis and how much evidence is present.

Reality is perceptual. We call something real if we have reached a sufficient level of confidence that it is, based on the evidence we have experienced for it and the personal level of faith required to be convinced. We can't prove it, only test it and provide more evidence for the hypothesis.

Quote
What life is based on, vs what life is, vs the limit of what consciousness can detect, vs what consciousness can appreciably detect OF LIFE...


You are mixing all of these things together based ONLY on faith.. realize how vapid such notions may be, if anything it's too little, on in extremes it may even be nothing.

You've got your whole comprehension pegged on imaginary..

I am not basing all this ONLY on faith, but on EVIDENCE combined with faith. The measure of evidence and the measure of faith are particular both with respect to the hypothesis and the individual.

If you can show me another model for having assurance of what is real and what is not that DOESN'T require faith I'd like to know what it is, please.

« Last Edit: Fri, 23 January 2015, 13:43:26 by Oobly »
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 15:49:54 »
I just wanted to say thank you for making me think :D It's been a while since I've had a good philosophy-type discussion. I respect you for thinking deeper and sharing more than many people are willing to (for whatever reason). It's good to give the old grey cells a bit of a work out in all kinds of different fields to keep 'em in good condition.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 17:09:17 »
The beginning of the Ergonomics board is oneself..

From within, we assemble the simple philosophies to which we live by and appropriate as necessary.

When it comes to physical movements, we use our hands and consume energy to complete work.

The antithesis of ergonomica is any option that either reduces the amount of work completed or increases the rate of consumed energy per sustained unit of work..

For example, when a standard rectangular keyboard inevitably causes RSI, our productivity drops or even cease..  This directly decreases the amount of work completed.

When a standard keyboard is inefficient in layout it requires more energy to do the same work..

So the philosophy followed as in all other endeavors is an optimization of performance to energy ratio..


This aspect, while principally illusory, as equivalent exchange can not be violated, is a pillar of modern living.

So now, why does life want to maintain itself in such a fashion, teetering in this wobbly construct.


If we limit the scope of our analysis to size of our solar system.. we can proceed thusly..

The sun.. outputs an ocean of radiated energy..  the Earth is but a luke warm pebble in this sea..  As those radiated waves hit the earth.. The buildup of energy on the surface and its interactions creates life..

So what is biological life.. turns out, we're just friction.. An inefficiency in the all consuming entropy.

Relative to the total amount of energy exchanged by the sun into the rest of the empty pockets of the solar system.. we are quite insignificant..

In the HUGE sea, we're on a pebble, which was hit by a wave, which caused the pebble surface to warm up ever so slightly, such that the patterns upon crystal lattices were replicated and mildly BARELY sustaining..

It's human hubris to over estimate our importance. but in truth, we are but our mass. The energy that we ourselves store, and PRESUME to generate, is actually just radiation that was already passing by..

It's as if the shrimp on a boat claims to have invented the ocean...

So life.. is the friction built up on earth as it floats in a sea of radiation.. life is a slight warming-effect..

This perfectly and succinctly explains humanity and its endeavors (including ergo keyboards).. we are the friction in the way of and sustained by solar winds..

It's been a natural consequence, not a choice..




----

Your world view vs Tp4's

Tp4's world view is all encompassing.. but it recognizes its limitations and its own relative SIZE..

Your world view is narrow, as it forces everything through a single antagonizing phenomenon..  that being  there is magic.... and you can 't prove otherwise...  This is the same pin hole used by all religions to stop people from having to think further. and Though I can see that your brain works.. you're not really letting it be free..

----

Reality is perceptual..  NO it is not..

Reality is physical,  and using those physical detectors, we estimate portions of reality, and COMPUTE a abstract model of what MIGHT BE, using a physical processors, the brain.

----

Basing your life on evidence..

How silly..  A sufficiently complex forgery can fool all of your senses.. Total trust as in -being fully convinced- is NOT possible, because an abstraction in our computational framework will only approach but never be the real thing..

You can measure for an eternity, and it will still fall short, because you've measured it with a stick built with only the PARTS of what you're attempting to measure.. it will never be long enough... EVER..


Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 17:15:55 »
Oobly, I am happy to bring enlightenment to even just one person..

You're welcome

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 04:34:01 »
And I'm back, busy weekend...

The beginning of the Ergonomics board is oneself..

From within, we assemble the simple philosophies to which we live by and appropriate as necessary.

When it comes to physical movements, we use our hands and consume energy to complete work.

The antithesis of ergonomica is any option that either reduces the amount of work completed or increases the rate of consumed energy per sustained unit of work..

For example, when a standard rectangular keyboard inevitably causes RSI, our productivity drops or even cease..  This directly decreases the amount of work completed.

When a standard keyboard is inefficient in layout it requires more energy to do the same work..

So the philosophy followed as in all other endeavors is an optimization of performance to energy ratio..


This aspect, while principally illusory, as equivalent exchange can not be violated, is a pillar of modern living.

So now, why does life want to maintain itself in such a fashion, teetering in this wobbly construct.


So then, why hasn't everyone made one?

I'll answer that for you. Because the energy expended in producing such a board is more than that recovered from one individual using the result, which goes counter to your argument. It is LESS efficient for an individual to develop such a board. I hope for it to end up being more efficient through my effort in developing it to allow it to be used by others without them having to do the development, and thus resulting in an overall improvement in efficiency, but it required going AGAINST the natural order to CREATE it, by my own WILL and DETERMINATION and there is no certainty of this occuring. It was certainly not the result of a repetition of simple natural processes. It required the intervention of an external conciousness for inspiration and creativity to problem solve both the design and physical implementation. Quite frankly I consider it an insult to deny that. Philosophise all you want, I know what went into it.

Quote
If we limit the scope of our analysis to size of our solar system.. we can proceed thusly..

The sun.. outputs an ocean of radiated energy..  the Earth is but a luke warm pebble in this sea..  As those radiated waves hit the earth.. The buildup of energy on the surface and its interactions creates life..

So what is biological life.. turns out, we're just friction.. An inefficiency in the all consuming entropy.

Relative to the total amount of energy exchanged by the sun into the rest of the empty pockets of the solar system.. we are quite insignificant..

In the HUGE sea, we're on a pebble, which was hit by a wave, which caused the pebble surface to warm up ever so slightly, such that the patterns upon crystal lattices were replicated and mildly BARELY sustaining..

It's human hubris to over estimate our importance. but in truth, we are but our mass. The energy that we ourselves store, and PRESUME to generate, is actually just radiation that was already passing by..

It's as if the shrimp on a boat claims to have invented the ocean...

So life.. is the friction built up on earth as it floats in a sea of radiation.. life is a slight warming-effect..

This perfectly and succinctly explains humanity and its endeavors (including ergo keyboards).. we are the friction in the way of and sustained by solar winds..

It's been a natural consequence, not a choice..


It's nice to think at planetary size level since it's probably the simplest view of our universe. Going larger we have dark matter, gravitational lensing, extreme quantum and relativistic effects, etc to try to deal with and explain. Going much smaller we have more of the same, freaky quantum effects, forces we don't yet understand (weak and strong nuclear force), etc. Looking at things from a human perspective, though (the level we naturally perceive with our senses without machines to extend them into the massive or tiny), we have the most complex level of existence to understand or explain. The individual conciousness and existence of applied independent "intelligence".

Quote
----

Your world view vs Tp4's

Tp4's world view is all encompassing.. but it recognizes its limitations and its own relative SIZE..

Your world view is narrow, as it forces everything through a single antagonizing phenomenon..  that being  there is magic.... and you can 't prove otherwise...  This is the same pin hole used by all religions to stop people from having to think further. and Though I can see that your brain works.. you're not really letting it be free..

----

Reality is perceptual..  NO it is not..

Reality is physical,  and using those physical detectors, we estimate portions of reality, and COMPUTE a abstract model of what MIGHT BE, using a physical processors, the brain.

----

Basing your life on evidence..

How silly..  A sufficiently complex forgery can fool all of your senses.. Total trust as in -being fully convinced- is NOT possible, because an abstraction in our computational framework will only approach but never be the real thing..

You can measure for an eternity, and it will still fall short, because you've measured it with a stick built with only the PARTS of what you're attempting to measure.. it will never be long enough... EVER..

Here we have a contradiction. You say reality is physical, yet you require sensors and signals being fed to your brain in order to experience it. And then you say all your senses can be fooled. Which means all the EVIDENCE of your senses, still requires FAITH in order to be accepted as "real".

Reality is thus 100% perceptual. Your senses detect phenomena and send signals to your brain which then interprets them. In order for you to interpret the signal as "real" requires previous evidence of such a signal meaning a particular thing and your faith that it now means the same thing.

You could well exist as simply a construct inside a machine, being fed sensory input to simulate a "reality" and you would not be able to tell the difference, unless it were for an outside conciousness somehow communicating to you that you are inside a simulation, like in the Matrix.

It's all based on evidence and faith.

Some hypotheses (such as "this keyboard I am typing on exists") are simple enough and have enough evidences for, to require very little faith to be accepted as true. Others require more faith, either due to being more complex, having less evidence or you having a worldview (picture of reality) in which such a thing is not likely to be true.

We do, however, have a shared perception of reality. Through communication with each other we reinforce the evidences of what is "real" and what is not, making the database of evidences very large. It could still all be simulated, but the likelihood becomes smaller and smaller with the complexity of the perceived reality. This is yet another argument that the universe and "reality" are truly complex, since you accept the existence of the physical so readily.

When the evidences overcome your level of unbelief, your worldview is adjusted to include this new aspect of your "reality". This is especially difficult to achieve when your worldview is very set, but an "open-minded" person has a more plastic worldview. This is something that requires a balance, though, since a worldview that is too flexible and requires very little evidence to change is rather pointless, floating around from one concept to another and never growing closer to a complete or accurate view of reality (a very gullible person who believes anything they're told, for example).

Evidences need to be tested before they're allowed to change your worldview. We create an action that will have a different outcome based on the vailidity of the hypothesis. The result then provides more evidence either for or against the hypothesis, but it requires some action. Doing nothing but thinking will not make your perception of reality any more accurate or complete. Thought needs to be backed by action. Lather, rinse, repeat. The more cycles you go through, the more confidence you can have in your hypothesis, assuming the database of results favour it.

I have built up a worldview over many years of actively going through these cycles. It doesn't include a spaghetti monster, but it does include a Creator. And it places people firmly in the "important" category as opposed to the "insignificant" one. This factor is an important one in the creation of my ergonomic keyboard. Without it, it would not have come about.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 04:48:33 »
Oobly, I am happy to bring enlightenment to even just one person..

You're welcome
Show Image


I like to think we have both presented our own versions of "enlightenment" for those brave or bored enough to read through.

And hopefully made things clearer for others, rather than more mixed up.

Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 04:50:30 »
Your work is most definitly the result of repetition of a natural process.

Get Money, Fvk *****es..

That is a fundamental guiding principle..

People fulfill that in a number of ways..

Your creativity is indeed a positive benefit to humanity, but it does not deviate from natural motivators..  BECAUSE that's how we're built..  If we were made any other way, where we don't GMFB... then it's all over..

You can not expect everyone to pursue the same avenue of GMFB as everyone else..



-----

Our faculties are NOT independent.. Not knowing the relationship does not mean they don't exist..

This is extended in my explanation on the impossibility of complete emulation of anything even remotely approaching our own system size, thus full-understanding is not possible.

-----

I have not made any contradictions.. I've already explained that I have no assurance of reality.

The examination on physical systems is based on a feedback loop.. though unprovable, it's the best we got..

You're persistently attempting to find where to cut the cake to best serve your point..

My perspective is, you can't cut it at all, because it's all one piece..


No amount of evidence can overcome unbelief..  because we have no way to explain total convergence of the universe using the binary system which is all any known computational system is capable of..

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 06:46:42 »
Money and sex are NOT the only motivators of human enterprise, in fact in many people they're not even the primary ones. To claim such puts your view of humanity (and lumps us all together) as equal to that of simple animals, of machines with no higher meaning or purpose, which I admit does seem to fit your philosophy, but ultimately is one that doesn't match reality. If you claim it does, then why put human rights above animal rights? Why value human endeavour in any subject at all? All becomes meaningless and there is no place in life for anything as obtuse as love or relationship, it's just a dog-eat-dog fight for money and sex with no space for nobility, compassion, empathy, sympathy, love or "good".

Of course evidence can overcome unbelief. To say it can't, is to say you don't believe in anything.

Do you believe you have a physical body that interacts with other physical objects? If so, then the evidence provided by your senses has overcome your unbelief.

Everything in human experience is based on this simple process of evidence-based faith, which includes the feedback loop you're talking about. If you don't take the leap of faith that the ground will support you when you take your next step (get the pun?), how can you walk? It is a requirement to not only trust the evidence you gather, but to act on that trust, too. You need to have faith that your foot won't go through the ground AND act on that faith in order to progress. Whether you're concious of it or not, you do this all the time. It's a requirement for interaction with the world around you.

I don't understand your reference to "cutting the cake". Could you please expand on that?

Our brains are computational and very much analog, so I don't really get what you're trying to say? And what exactly is this "total convergeance of the universe"?

You seem to be talking a lot without saying anything.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 07:17:28 »
You're refusing to see the Ends to our Means..

You earn money.. why.. what does anyone do with money, that doesn't ultimately GROW population.. 

I am not speaking about money as the paper itself.. but what it leads to.. From the richest down to the poorest.. It does one thing in the end..

Because we're locked into this very simple cycle of growth.. and all innovation is to maintain that growth..

Let's look at something far fetched.. Server technology.. M0re processing power.. thicker pipes..

What drives consumer bandwidth use.. Oh Facebook.. Why use facebook.. so you can chat up girls..  oh why chat up girls.. you see where this is going..


I believe in what I believe in.. But it remains unconfirmed.. no amount of evidence can COMPLETELY-confirm a belief..

Just because I can reach out and touch something, does not make it real..  I've never met you.. you could be a product of my imagination.. an elaborate ploy devised to fool me, as I live in a human zoo..  I can't prove otherwise, because the system is bigger than I am.. I can never fully know it..


--Everything in the human experience--.. You put too much value in humans, I believe this is great disservice you've imposed upon your extrapolations.. 


I can not walk, I can only perceive myself walking.. this ground beneath me is perceptibly solid, but is it REALLY.. I can not say for sure..

You live and think on anecdotes and assumptions that you can not confirm..

The world, our brains may very well be analogue.. But computation is NOT.. we do not and can not understand analogue.. we ARE analogue..   The fish in the water..


I've already explained cutting the cake prior.. You're forcing segmented definitions which you hold as truths out of a continuous system.. A line is a line, you pick a point, that point is unreal. you need a leap of faith, an approximation, a coordinate. but that coordinate is not real, and it is not part of the system, we lack the ability to truly describe what a point is.

So what you've ultimately done is cut something blindly..


Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 09:17:35 »
You're refusing to see the Ends to our Means..

You earn money.. why.. what does anyone do with money, that doesn't ultimately GROW population.. 

I am not speaking about money as the paper itself.. but what it leads to.. From the richest down to the poorest.. It does one thing in the end..

Because we're locked into this very simple cycle of growth.. and all innovation is to maintain that growth..

Let's look at something far fetched.. Server technology.. M0re processing power.. thicker pipes..

What drives consumer bandwidth use.. Oh Facebook.. Why use facebook.. so you can chat up girls..  oh why chat up girls.. you see where this is going..


I believe in what I believe in.. But it remains unconfirmed.. no amount of evidence can COMPLETELY-confirm a belief..

Just because I can reach out and touch something, does not make it real..  I've never met you.. you could be a product of my imagination.. an elaborate ploy devised to fool me, as I live in a human zoo..  I can't prove otherwise, because the system is bigger than I am.. I can never fully know it..


--Everything in the human experience--.. You put too much value in humans, I believe this is great disservice you've imposed upon your extrapolations.. 


I can not walk, I can only perceive myself walking.. this ground beneath me is perceptibly solid, but is it REALLY.. I can not say for sure..

You live and think on anecdotes and assumptions that you can not confirm..

The world, our brains may very well be analogue.. But computation is NOT.. we do not and can not understand analogue.. we ARE analogue..   The fish in the water..


I've already explained cutting the cake prior.. You're forcing segmented definitions which you hold as truths out of a continuous system.. A line is a line, you pick a point, that point is unreal. you need a leap of faith, an approximation, a coordinate. but that coordinate is not real, and it is not part of the system, we lack the ability to truly describe what a point is.

So what you've ultimately done is cut something blindly..

Yes, our sensory systems and experience cannot see / experience / know the entirety of the universe. We are too small for that.

But you are missing my point. I fully agree we cannot ever gain enough evidence to KNOW something beyond any doubt, but that doesn't mean we can't choose to accept it as "true enough" by faith. The ground being there for my next step is "true enough" to my perception based on my previous experience and what I see before me that I am confident enough to take a step, in faith. It's not "blind" faith, because it's based on good evidence. However, a belief in something does not make that thing true. You just consider it to be "true enough" to take action, trusting that it will be as you expect.

Evidence does not overcome unbelief, faith overcomes unbelief, based on experience and evidence. I do not see how it could be any other way.

Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 11:45:56 »
Now who's got the contradiction..   You have ur all purpose faith, yet somehow it doesn't apply for that new rambling of yours, and suddenly -you do not see how it could be any other way-..

Faith is approximation, and accepting faith, is accepting limitations..   However, that does not alter what Faith is..   Faith is nothing..

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 12:11:08 »
Now who's got the contradiction..   You have ur all purpose faith, yet somehow it doesn't apply for that new rambling of yours, and suddenly -you do not see how it could be any other way-..

Faith is approximation, and accepting faith, is accepting limitations..   However, that does not alter what Faith is..   Faith is nothing..

Now you're just spouting words that have no meaning. Seriously, what part of what I've said is so hard to understand? Please point out the contradiction in my statements.

Faith is not approximation, but choosing to believe. My point is that EVERYBODY has and exercises faith and has been doing so from birth. Without it you cannot function effectively. It's part of the intrinsic process of making sense of our personal universe.
« Last Edit: Mon, 26 January 2015, 12:21:22 by Oobly »
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 12:23:26 »
Now who's got the contradiction..   You have ur all purpose faith, yet somehow it doesn't apply for that new rambling of yours, and suddenly -you do not see how it could be any other way-..

Faith is approximation, and accepting faith, is accepting limitations..   However, that does not alter what Faith is..   Faith is nothing..

Now you're just spouting words that have no meaning. Seriously, what part of what I've said is so hard to understand? Please point out the contradiction in my statements.

Faith is not approximation, but choosing to believe. My point is that EVERYBODY has and exercises faith and has been doing so from birth. Without it you cannot function effectively. It's part of the intrinsic process of making sense of our personal universe.

No no.. I understand perfectly.. It is Oobly whose mind refuse to open..

Faith is an approximation because it is a concept that rides on top of consciousness..

Consciousness itself is an approximation, so is faith..  Making sense of my personal universe does not depend on faith.

By simply being in the universe, you have sense of the universe.. But because consciousness, perceptibly is a very incomplete analysis of said universe.. it and all its conclusions are nothing and unreal.

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 13:01:30 »
Now who's got the contradiction..   You have ur all purpose faith, yet somehow it doesn't apply for that new rambling of yours, and suddenly -you do not see how it could be any other way-..

Faith is approximation, and accepting faith, is accepting limitations..   However, that does not alter what Faith is..   Faith is nothing..

Now you're just spouting words that have no meaning. Seriously, what part of what I've said is so hard to understand? Please point out the contradiction in my statements.

Faith is not approximation, but choosing to believe. My point is that EVERYBODY has and exercises faith and has been doing so from birth. Without it you cannot function effectively. It's part of the intrinsic process of making sense of our personal universe.

No no.. I understand perfectly.. It is Oobly whose mind refuse to open..
Show Image


Faith is an approximation because it is a concept that rides on top of consciousness..

Consciousness itself is an approximation, so is faith..  Making sense of my personal universe does not depend on faith.

By simply being in the universe, you have sense of the universe.. But because consciousness, perceptibly is a very incomplete analysis of said universe.. it and all its conclusions are nothing and unreal.

Well, I guess since conciousness is an approximation and thought requires conciousness then all the thoughts you've written in this thread are nothing and unreal and I will disregard them.

/thread.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 13:33:05 »
Now who's got the contradiction..   You have ur all purpose faith, yet somehow it doesn't apply for that new rambling of yours, and suddenly -you do not see how it could be any other way-..

Faith is approximation, and accepting faith, is accepting limitations..   However, that does not alter what Faith is..   Faith is nothing..

Now you're just spouting words that have no meaning. Seriously, what part of what I've said is so hard to understand? Please point out the contradiction in my statements.

Faith is not approximation, but choosing to believe. My point is that EVERYBODY has and exercises faith and has been doing so from birth. Without it you cannot function effectively. It's part of the intrinsic process of making sense of our personal universe.

No no.. I understand perfectly.. It is Oobly whose mind refuse to open..
Show Image


Faith is an approximation because it is a concept that rides on top of consciousness..

Consciousness itself is an approximation, so is faith..  Making sense of my personal universe does not depend on faith.

By simply being in the universe, you have sense of the universe.. But because consciousness, perceptibly is a very incomplete analysis of said universe.. it and all its conclusions are nothing and unreal.

Well, I guess since conciousness is an approximation and thought requires conciousness then all the thoughts you've written in this thread are nothing and unreal and I will disregard them.

/thread.

So short sighted..

Just because something is unreal , does not mean you disregard them..

but they can not be used to convince you of anything..

Knowing what faith is is important, but acting on it is and applying disproportionate belief in it..  THAT is the problem..

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 15:58:37 »
...
So short sighted..

Just because something is unreal , does not mean you disregard them..
...
.. It is Oobly whose mind refuse to open..
... accepting faith, is accepting limitations..

How can a worldview that allows for more than the physical to exist be more limited than one that doesn't?

You are not making sense any more.

Of course you disregard the unreal. If it is unreal it has no significance and that which has no significance is irrelevant.

... applying disproportionate belief in it..  THAT is the problem..


Applying disproportionate belief in faith...? What?

As I see it the problem is that you cannot see the part it plays in everyday existence. In order to interact with an object you need to trust your senses that are telling you the object is there. If you don't you can't do anything with the object because you don't believe it exists. Please explain to me the flaw you seem to see in my logic.. And please be rational about it this time, because otherwise my conclusion will simply be that rational discussion with you is not possible.






Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 13721
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 17:32:35 »
I am making perfect sense.

You're trying to affirm your beliefs including the act of believing through improper means.

Because the Faith you know is not a- real-thing in this universe, it can not be acted upon, or in any way represent any portion of reality.

That does not alter the fact that faith is a-thing, that it-exists.. but as is consciousness, they're both placeholder variables.

Offline Novus

  • Formerly the1onewolf
  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 1515
  • Mondai nothing~
Re: This recurrent Dream I keep having
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 26 January 2015, 19:28:59 »
Is money real or just a concept?