Logitech G900

[tp4tissue]

Anyone Onboard ?

It's $150

Wireless, (claims latency free), (claims interference resistant)

[Lpwl]

It's $150

You lost me there.

[tp4tissue]

It's $150

You lost me there.

Hahahahaha..

Street price will prolly be lower..  but, yea.. I completely understand..

[tp4tissue]

Here're some problems I see..

It's only got a 750mah battery..

Now,  lipo, even the best small cells are down to 75-80% capacity after ~100 cycles..     This wouldn't be terribly noticeable on a large cell,  but on small cells, you're gonna be charging every 3 days..

Since this is a mass produced product, I highly doubt logitech is even using THE BEST cells.

If this thing indeed lasts for approximately 1 week of usage per charge (unlikely)

You're looking at about 1 to 2 years before that battery hits 80%, which is the throw away point for most lipo..

The mouse has a 2 year- warranty,  you're gonna have to take it apart yourself and put in a new battery..  Many people won't be able to do this.. and for $150, that's nuts..

I'm hoping this thing uses all Japan made buttons, because otherwise... I really don't see how $150 is justified..

[appleonama]

What is wrong with wired mice? I don't understand the need for wireless they will always be inferior to wired.

[tp4tissue]

What is wrong with wired mice? I don't understand the need for wireless they will always be inferior to wired.

well,,,,  according to logitech,,,, they've breached that barrier.... the chart has it tested against the steelseries rival, and deathadder chroma,  which ARE wired mices.


However,  I do find it fishy that they don't have a chart of the Steelseries Rival MOTION latency..

I think maybe they're hiding something.

[whmeltonjr]

I don't care enough about wire/wireless to pay that money for a wireless. My G502 has given me zero problems and has been great to use.

[tp4tissue]

I don't care enough about wire/wireless to pay that money for a wireless. My G502 has given me zero problems and has been great to use.

Well, yea.. but ASSUMING they can truly make the wireless mouse as good as wired..

Then, you'd pick the wireless no ?

[SpAmRaY]

I'd think about it if it had a couple more buttons.

[tp4tissue]

I'd think about it if it had a couple more buttons.

It's 11 buttons hahaha...

[Air tree]

What are the spec differences between this and their g602?

The g602's battery life was really nice, from what I heard.

[SpAmRaY]

I'd think about it if it had a couple more buttons.

It's 11 buttons hahaha...

Still not as many as my G700s

And the picture is deceiving it doesn't look like it has that many buttons.

[tp4tissue]

What are the spec differences between this and their g602?

The g602's battery life was really nice, from what I heard.

it's got a smaller battery, but it's much lighter, and it's got -the best sensor- same as the g502..

[SpAmRaY]

What are the spec differences between this and their g602?

The g602's battery life was really nice, from what I heard.

it's got a smaller battery, but it's much lighter, and it's got -the best sensor- same as the g502..

That's too bad, the G502 doesn't seem that great to me, I've been using one at work for a few months now and I'm not impressed.

Of course it could be partly because it's wired.

[tp4tissue]

What are the spec differences between this and their g602?

The g602's battery life was really nice, from what I heard.

it's got a smaller battery, but it's much lighter, and it's got -the best sensor- same as the g502..

That's too bad, the G502 doesn't seem that great to me, I've been using one at work for a few months now and I'm not impressed.

Of course it could be partly because it's wired.

wire prejudiced

[Vittra]

3366 sensor and 107g weight on a wireless mouse? Interesting, this could actually be viable.

[LiquidEvilGaming]

What is wrong with wired mice? I don't understand the need for wireless they will always be inferior to wired.

Personally even with a good mouse bungee i still sense wire drag to an extent it annoys me.  That said i also recognize wired are technically superior even though i prefer wireless.

Currently of mice i own and have not sold or gave away i own

Sensei orange RAW heat edition
Razer Deathadder Chroma
Logitech G602
RedDragon lavawolf
RedDragon PERDITION
Logitech M570


Of the bunch i prefer the G602 even though it's a bit heavy due to it's excellent wireless.

[appleonama]

What is wrong with wired mice? I don't understand the need for wireless they will always be inferior to wired.

Personally even with a good mouse bungee i still sense wire drag to an extent it annoys me.  That said i also recognize wired are technically superior even though i prefer wireless.

Currently of mice i own and have not sold or gave away i own

Sensei orange RAW heat edition
Razer Deathadder Chroma
Logitech G602
RedDragon lavawolf
RedDragon PERDITION
Logitech M570


Of the bunch i prefer the G602 even though it's a bit heavy due to it's excellent wireless.

That is your problem you have bought mice with this useless paracord style cable which will cause more drag or get caught on your table. I dont know why they continue to put paracord on their cables.

[LiquidEvilGaming]

What is wrong with wired mice? I don't understand the need for wireless they will always be inferior to wired.

Personally even with a good mouse bungee i still sense wire drag to an extent it annoys me.  That said i also recognize wired are technically superior even though i prefer wireless.

Currently of mice i own and have not sold or gave away i own

Sensei orange RAW heat edition
Razer Deathadder Chroma
Logitech G602
RedDragon lavawolf
RedDragon PERDITION
Logitech M570


Of the bunch i prefer the G602 even though it's a bit heavy due to it's excellent wireless.

That is your problem you have bought mice with this useless paracord style cable which will cause more drag or get caught on your table. I dont know why they continue to put paracord on their cables.

Honestly even with a normal cable i notice is VERY much even having used two different style bungees.  Simply put i prefer wireless IMO, are wired mice superior technically? Of course, enough so that anyone who isn't a pro gamer at the highest levels or a professional that requires PERFECT accuracy will notice it?  Not likely.

[tp4tissue]

Honestly even with a normal cable i notice is VERY much even having used two different style bungees.  Simply put i prefer wireless IMO, are wired mice superior technically? Of course, enough so that anyone who isn't a pro gamer at the highest levels or a professional that requires PERFECT accuracy will notice it?  Not likely.

what are the different style bungies,  the spring one vs the rubber one ?

[whmeltonjr]

I don't care enough about wire/wireless to pay that money for a wireless. My G502 has given me zero problems and has been great to use.

Well, yea.. but ASSUMING they can truly make the wireless mouse as good as wired..

Then, you'd pick the wireless no ?

Maybe? I wouldn't pay all the extra money for one. I don't have a problem with having a wired mouse. I don't have to charge it and I never take my computer anywhere anyway, so wireless doesn't appeal to me.

[LiquidEvilGaming]

Honestly even with a normal cable i notice is VERY much even having used two different style bungees.  Simply put i prefer wireless IMO, are wired mice superior technically? Of course, enough so that anyone who isn't a pro gamer at the highest levels or a professional that requires PERFECT accuracy will notice it?  Not likely.

what are the different style bungies,  the spring one vs the rubber one ?

Not sure what all the different ones are   But i have used the classic spring one and the low profile razer armadillo style and the little wire clips on a desk also.  In all cases though i felt the wire enough it was noticeable and bothered me, i sort of compare it to ABS vs PBT, yeah i don't mind ABS and i can use it just fine but i do notice when it's not PBT and vastly prefer it to be so.

[tp4tissue]

Honestly even with a normal cable i notice is VERY much even having used two different style bungees.  Simply put i prefer wireless IMO, are wired mice superior technically? Of course, enough so that anyone who isn't a pro gamer at the highest levels or a professional that requires PERFECT accuracy will notice it?  Not likely.

what are the different style bungies,  the spring one vs the rubber one ?

Not sure what all the different ones are   But i have used the classic spring one and the low profile razer armadillo style and the little wire clips on a desk also.  In all cases though i felt the wire enough it was noticeable and bothered me, i sort of compare it to ABS vs PBT, yeah i don't mind ABS and i can use it just fine but i do notice when it's not PBT and vastly prefer it to be so.

I guess this would be a good black friday item then...

[Leslieann]

It's only got a 750mah battery.. Now,  lipo, even the best small cells are down to 75-80% capacity after ~100 cycles..     This wouldn't be terribly noticeable on a large cell,  but on small cells, you're gonna be charging every 3 days..

Since this is a mass produced product, I highly doubt logitech is even using THE BEST cells. If this thing indeed lasts for approximately 1 week of usage per charge (unlikely). You're looking at about 1 to 2 years before that battery hits 80%, which is the throw away point for most lipo.. The mouse has a 2 year- warranty,  you're gonna have to take it apart yourself and put in a new battery..  Many people won't be able to do this.. and for $150, that's nuts..

I'm hoping this thing uses all Japan made buttons, because otherwise... I really don't see how $150 is justified..

Charge every 3 days? maybe.
For many people that's a week, for me, after I bump the resolution and poling rate, it's a day and a half tops. Honestly though, that's better than my G700s, which is almost dead at the end of the day even after installing a good 2700mah NIHM (which I recently killed).

As for battery lifespan, I typically destroy the left mouse button within a year and half. Yes, I could warranty it, but how long will that take.  I can't really go more than few days without a decent mouse (cad work), so basically when it dies, I'm stuck buying another right away. Yes, I could warranty the old one, but after repairs it would just go bad in storage.


Odds are it will have Omrons probably for the main buttons, most high end Logitech do, but those are what last a year and half tops. The other buttons could be anything, and honestly, as far as I'm concerned, don't really matter. I'd kill for easily replaceable Omrons like Gigabyte has for the main buttons. I could keep the G700 series running a long time with that (even if I dislike the feel).

What is wrong with wired mice? I don't understand the need for wireless they will always be inferior to wired.

Old, old thinking.
Try a truly good high end wireless gaming mouse, what you said hasn't been true for a while, especially if you set it up right (receiver as close as possible to the mouse, and no usb hubs). I have been top of leader boards on FPS games, banned for "cheating" and more, I never considered wireless lag to be a detriment (in the last 10 years) , on the contrary, I find fighting find cords to hinder my playing ability quite a lot.

Can you spot wireless lag? On cheaper mice, absolutely, or if something is interfering, but if you set it up right, and have a good mouse, its not a problem.

[tp4tissue]

Charge every 3 days? maybe.
For many people that's a week, for me, after I bump the resolution and poling rate, it's a day and a half tops. Honestly though, that's better than my G700s, which is almost dead at the end of the day even after installing a good 2700mah NIHM (which I recently killed).

As for battery lifespan, I typically destroy the left mouse button within a year and half. Yes, I could warranty it, but how long will that take.  I can't really go more than few days without a decent mouse (cad work), so basically when it dies, I'm stuck buying another right away. Yes, I could warranty the old one, but after repairs it would just go bad in storage.


Odds are it will have Omrons probably for the main buttons, most high end Logitech do, but those are what last a year and half tops. The other buttons could be anything, and honestly, as far as I'm concerned, don't really matter. I'd kill for easily replaceable Omrons like Gigabyte has for the main buttons. I could keep the G700 series running a long time with that (even if I dislike the feel).

Well, you can replace the omrons quite easily..  Check my WMO thread..

But what bothers me is that battery.. since a good lipo @ single piece price is not gonna be under $20..

[LXXXIX]

Wow it's ugly.

[Leslieann]

Well, you can replace the omrons quite easily..  Check my WMO thread..

But what bothers me is that battery.. since a good lipo @ single piece price is not gonna be under $20..

On a single pcb mouse, yes, they are easy to change.

The G700 series is the most complex and difficult mouse I've ever worked on. It uses two pcb's stacked on one another, the lower blocking access to the underside of the Omrons which are on the upper pcb. While you could swap the right switch, the left is much more inboard and requires the upper pcb to be removed. The boards are hard mounted with 14 pins. Desoldering a 2 pin part is one thing, trying to do 14 is another, last time I damaged a few traces, I rewired two, but the mouse still failed to work.

I have better access to equipment and may give it anther shot soon (I'm on my third G700 and it's starting to fail too).

Wow it's ugly.

So is the 700 series, I don't even really like the ergo of the 700, but I'll be darn if it doesn't work well.

[tp4tissue]

gotta haz the solderpult.

[Leslieann]

gotta haz the solderpult.

I have a generic one, which I made better, as well as solder braid. I used both, neither worked. I even have a desolder bulb equipped iron, that too failed to work. I have never encountered anything so hard to desolder.

I now know a guy with a vaccum system, so I may try that.

[tp4tissue]

gotta haz the solderpult.

I have a generic one, which I made better, as well as solder braid. I used both, neither worked. I even have a desolder bulb equipped iron, that too failed to work. I have never encountered anything so hard to desolder.

I now know a guy with a vaccum system, so I may try that.

/headscratch..

are you lining up the solderpult correctly?

You gotta get it Right up there, don't be afraid to touch the iron even..

[Leslieann]

gotta haz the solderpult.

I have a generic one, which I made better, as well as solder braid. I used both, neither worked. I even have a desolder bulb equipped iron, that too failed to work. I have never encountered anything so hard to desolder.

I now know a guy with a vaccum system, so I may try that.

/headscratch..

are you lining up the solderpult correctly?

You gotta get it Right up there, don't be afraid to touch the iron even..

Yes.

[Marizen]

They may have fixed the latency issue, but the batttery life kinda sucks. It only has 32 hours of battery life without lights, and only 24 with lights.

Now, I highly doubt I'll ever game for 24 hours straight, but it's a pain having to make sure it's charged up, or having to carry around the cable with me in case it dies, when I could just use a wired mouse and never have to worry about battery life.

Also, I like having the added drag from a cable. It seems like it adds a bit more control to the mouse. I love the shape of my G602, but not having the cable there gets weird after a while. It just feels kind....floaty.

I like that it has the free-scroll wheel. That's great for work, but if I want a mouse purely for work then I'd get an MX Master. It's cheaper and has more features all-around.

[chuckdee]

I don't care enough about wire/wireless to pay that money for a wireless. My G502 has given me zero problems and has been great to use.

Well, yea.. but ASSUMING they can truly make the wireless mouse as good as wired..

Then, you'd pick the wireless no ?

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-wireless-mouse-idUSKCN0WP21I

Wireless mice from companies like HP, Lenovo, Amazon and Dell use unencrypted signals to communicate with computers.

"They haven't encrypted the mouse traffic, that makes it possible for the attacker to send unencrypted traffic to the dongle pretending to be a keyboard and have it result as keystrokes on your computer. This would be the same as if the attacker was sitting at your computer typing on the computer," said Newlin, a security researcher at Bastille. 

[Leslieann]

They may have fixed the latency issue, but the batttery life kinda sucks. It only has 32 hours of battery life without lights, and only 24 with lights.

Now, I highly doubt I'll ever game for 24 hours straight, but it's a pain having to make sure it's charged up, or having to carry around the cable with me in case it dies, when I could just use a wired mouse and never have to worry about battery life.

Also, I like having the added drag from a cable. It seems like it adds a bit more control to the mouse. I love the shape of my G602, but not having the cable there gets weird after a while. It just feels kind....floaty.

Yeah, who would ever use a device with less than 2 days battery life...

That's 32 hours of use, not standby, for most people thats 3-7 days of use. I fail to see how always carrying cord (permanently attached) is better than only needing it on long trips, it's a false argument. If you do need it though, the newer ones all use a micro usb cable, so the same cord charging your mouse can charge your phone and vice versa, so in reality, you aren't carrying an extra cord at all.

There's nothing wrong with preferring cords, I prefer a corded keyboard. If you like cords, keep them, I actually had to get rid of the mouse cord after I got a desk that had a tendency to murder them (3 mice in 6 months).


By the way, cord drag does not give you more control, it's inconsistent, particularly in relation to what is happening on the screen, so in actuality it detracts from your control. What it's doing is giving you feedback by way of friction. Problem is, like I said, it's inconsistent.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-wireless-mouse-idUSKCN0WP21I

Wireless mice from companies like HP, Lenovo, Amazon and Dell use unencrypted signals to communicate with computers.

"They haven't encrypted the mouse traffic, that makes it possible for the attacker to send unencrypted traffic to the dongle pretending to be a keyboard and have it result as keystrokes on your computer. This would be the same as if the attacker was sitting at your computer typing on the computer," said Newlin, a security researcher at Bastille. 

It's F.U.D.
The attacker needs to be well within 30 feet (usually 15 feet) of the computer they are attacking and if the computer is locked and passworded, who cares. If you are using it, you would probably notice. So the real world implications of this are slim unless you do top secret research or something.

[rainb1ood]

laser or optical?

[chuckdee]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-wireless-mouse-idUSKCN0WP21I

Wireless mice from companies like HP, Lenovo, Amazon and Dell use unencrypted signals to communicate with computers.

"They haven't encrypted the mouse traffic, that makes it possible for the attacker to send unencrypted traffic to the dongle pretending to be a keyboard and have it result as keystrokes on your computer. This would be the same as if the attacker was sitting at your computer typing on the computer," said Newlin, a security researcher at Bastille. 

It's F.U.D.
The attacker needs to be well within 30 feet (usually 15 feet) of the computer they are attacking and if the computer is locked and passworded, who cares. If you are using it, you would probably notice. So the real world implications of this are slim unless you do top secret research or something.

Did you read the article/look at the video?  That's a bit more than 30 feet that they've done it at.  In fact, they go into it at the beginning of the video.  It's surprisingly concise, so not a long viewing.

[Leslieann]

Doesn't change anything.
Think about actually implementing this, you have no feedback, you have no idea what OS they are running, you don't even know what computer you are attacking, and you can only do one computer at a time.

Yes, it could be scripted to attack any OS that's vulnerable, but you are still blind, not sure who you are hacking (even with a directional antenna) and limited to one connection at a time. Frankly, most computers have very little on them worth that kind of time and effort. Should it be fixed, yes, people have known about the lack of encryption on mice and keyboards for a while, but it's not a serious problem for the billions (which is a stretch) they claim to be at risk. You are far more at risk of someone using a keylogger and reading your keystroked than someone doing this hack. Which by the way is why companies are updating the firmware, not because of these guys.

Remember, these guys are making it out to be bigger than it is because it's a startup security firm "hoping to cash in on its security flaw findings". All they really did was theorize a new way to take advantage of a previously known flaw. It's not even clear if they even managed to do what they theorize, only that they detected the signal.


As for the distance...
They used a 2-4db wifi antenna instead of the normal dongle the mouse uses which is like .05db, which is why it had the range of a router. If you watch the video, you can tell they used a usb wifi adapter with a 2db removable antenna, looks just like the Rosewill I have. Keep in mind, that their distance was line of sight, which is a best case scenario, businesses and homes have walls. Your router can probably go 150 meters too, especially in an alley  with direct line of sight, but odds are it barely leaves your property because of the walls.

Want more? Make a Pringles cantenna, it's an antenna made from a Pringles can... These are 5-9db antennas capable of transmitting 2.4ghz up to 7 miles. You can buy pro made cantennas that will reach closer to 9miles, common satellite dishes are capable of up to 24 miles, and the old 9 footers can do 100miles.  All of these hook right into the Rosewill using a common cable you could buy at Radio Shack, Amazon, or Ebay. 

[chuckdee]

Hmmm... so I guess it's not a problem then... but...

How many public places offer free wifi and how many people use it? A hacker could be close enough to visually spy and know what page you are on, and close enough to take control, and you'd be more likely to want to use one of those cheap compact mini wireless mice than lugging a big wired one around with you.

I know if I wanted to take advantage of it, I'd study the guy who uses Starbucks as his office, taking advantage of their free wifi and easy access to coffee, and works from there, predictably, every single day. He sits at the same table each day, sets up his laptop, wireless mouse, etc. and stays there for about 4-6 hours, Monday through Friday.

If I knew this and could show up before he does, I could choose a table close enough, that gave me a fairly clear view of his screen. I could pretend to be someone just like him, working from the same coffee shop every day, just like him, strike up a conversation, get to know him, all while spying on him as he works.

Might not be worth the trouble in some rinky dink town to try to target an individual like that, but in a large urban area like NYC, Seattle, or San Francisco, it could be.

But of course, no one could ever implement that...

[Leslieann]

I don't think you grasp what this does, it gives you keyboard access, only keyboard access, and only in theory.
If someone is sitting at the computer they're going to see you doing something. You don't think they will notice you opening folders typing in commands, browsers and such?

If you're using public Wifi, you are already at risk of spying.
You can keep throwing out what-ifs, but the bottom line is that this is ridiculous for the average person to worry too much about. It hasn't happened, and your odds of it happening to you are so slim it's insane. Again, you are far, far more at risk for someone using a keylogger from this (which is what it's based), or someone sidejacking your wifi connection and gaining access to your Facebook account. Both of which can be done without even connecting to your computer at all.

Bottom line, there are plenty of better, easier, proven ways to take over someone's computer than some untested theory where the person can plainly see everything you do.

[chuckdee]

I don't think you grasp what this does, it gives you keyboard access, only keyboard access, and only in theory.

I do grasp what it does.  And no, not only keyboard access.  You can fool the dongle into making it think the signals are from a keyboard- but of course, it's a mouse dongle.

But thanks for your insight and the conversation!

[tp4tissue]

Oh man..

Just saw an xploded view of the mice..

It don't got Japanese Omron..   Same ol'  D2FC-7N

/would be angry if I bought it for $150