Ideal switch - speed, accuracy, or just feel

[evoman]

Just wondering what people think makes the ideal switch - is it all about maximising speed and accuracy of typing, or is it all about feel, or some combination?

I have been using a couple of Topre boards and really like the feel of the switches, but when I do typing speed tests i still always come out significantly faster on my Model M, and with fewer errors.  So it got me wondering what criteria people use when deciding on their favourite switch - I imagine it is all about feel, but I wonder if people sacrifice feel for speed or accuracy?

I'm hoping i will settle onto something that gives me the best of both worlds (Model F?) - but still looking...

[chyros]

For me it's mostly about feel (smoothness, weight, tactility) and sound.

[absyrd]

Feels.

I wouldn't sacrifice the comfort for 5 wpm or similar.

[1391406]

While I like the feel, Buckling Springs in the Model M actually slow me down. I prefer the feel of Topre over the Model M's BS. I type faster using Topre, as well. Anyway, to answer your question, I'd take feel over speed. That said, Model F's have a lighter actuation force, which I prefer over the Model M.

[tp4tissue]

The only aspect of the switch that's   VITAL is the 2mm actuation distance..  or 1.5.. or whatever that's NOT at the bottom..


Everything else doesn't make much of a difference when you're getting wurk done.

[dante]

High actuation/bump, scissor switch level travel, as silent as possible.

[Hordak]

Feel, layout and sound. It depends on what you're doing, i.e. your priorities. As a developer, I type pretty much all day and the HHKB Type-S provides me with the least fatigue / most enjoyable experience for my situation. I can type all day long on this board, no probs, and the dampened acoustics are appreciated by my coworkers. That said, I had a Realforce 55g before the HHKB and I thought it was mad ballz cool, but I just couldn't use it much over half an arn or so because my fingers would just wear down. Also, as many have already stated before, once you get intimate with the HHKB layout there's no turning back, it's simply brilliant.

[FoxWolf1]

For me, functionality comes first, reducing fatigue in prolonged use comes second, durability comes third, and "feel" comes fourth.

To me, feel, so long as it's above a certain threshold of acceptability, is similar to something like RGB lighting effects. You'll notice it when you first get the keyboard, and when you're just playing around, but (after the initial adjustment period), when you're actually using your PC for something, and are focused on your task rather than on your keyboard, then you won't notice it anymore, so the differences between switches (once again, so long as a certain minimal level is reached) stops mattering. In fact, if you are noticing it, then that's a bad thing, because it means that your keyboard is distracting you from your task, rather than helping you perform the task better.

[evoman]

I feel like I type faster on Topre - maybe because it feels smooth, but all evidence suggests I am much slower than on the Model M.  I am not a super fast typist - maybe 350cpm on my model M (ca. 70 wpm) in a good run, but I end up quite a bit lower on the Topre (partly due to difference in experience - been on a Model M for 10 years or so - and only months on a Topre) - like 270cpm on the Topre.

The comment from FoxWolf1 about not noticing is a good one - and that is part of the difference I see in the various keyboards (how transparent they are).  I'm hoping a better key profile will help bridge the difference.

As for noise, I always feel lucky that I have no issues with noise at work since I have my own office. I worry a bit more at home, so use something quieter (Matias Quiet or even the Topre is quiet enough).  That being said, I found the noise from MX blues to be annoying.

[Entropia]

Don't you think that typing errors can be more due to the shape of the keys, distances, inclination or who knows what, but more related to the keyboard itself rather than with the switches. I've tried keyboards with the same switches and I start typing with one of them and no typos at all, and with another one, I'm all the time pushing the wrong keys or between keys. For instance: Model M (perfect), Cherry G80 (perfect), Tesoro Durandal (well), Corsair K70 (bad), Logitech K120 (well)...

[evoman]

Don't you think that typing errors can be more due to the shape of the keys, distances, inclination or who knows what, but more related to the keyboard itself rather than with the switches. I've tried keyboards with the same switches and I start typing with one of them and no typos at all, and with another one, I'm all the time pushing the wrong keys or between keys. For instance: Model M (perfect), Cherry G80 (perfect), Tesoro Durandal (well), Corsair K70 (bad), Logitech K120 (well)...

I think this is probably right, but I haven't managed to find a like for like in keycaps to compare. Most keyboards feel too flat compared to the Model M, so I don't feel like I get the separation between keys.  That being saud, my laptop (using now) is a Lenovo with a chiclet keyboard (but reasonably nice firm and tactile feel), and so while it is flat, the chiclet style provides a sense of space between keys. 

 The Model M has the curved plate, which I think helps.  I want to try a higher profile set of caps on my Topre or Cherry boards to see whether I can get something more similar, but haven't managed to swap keycaps (waiting for some MX compatible sliders, and also just got a NovaTouch, so just need the right caps!).

[evoman]

This reminds me - I am interested in suggestions for keycaps (MX compatible) that might help improve the feel - any suggestions?  Is SA the way to go, or something a bit less severe?  I find the Cherry profile too flat, and while I think the profile on my RealForce is better, it is still too low for my taste.  I need a high contrast cap (RF has a dark cap and it drives me crazy in my often very dark office!).

[Entropia]

That's interesting because every time I've mentioned my problems typing with certain keyboards everyone tells me is has to do with the type of switch and that the key layout and distances are supposed to be standard.

[evoman]

That's interesting because every time I've mentioned my problems typing with certain keyboards everyone tells me is has to do with the type of switch and that the key layout and distances are supposed to be standard.

centre to centre distances are basically standard across boards, but the layout is affected by things like the angle and curvature of the plate.  The Model M has a curved plate, which I think makes a big difference.  I have a NovaTouch and a RealForce sitting here on my desk, and the angles look different to me (NT looks flatter to me).  When I type on the Model M the keys feel further apart to me - and that feeling of separation is something I really like.  The taller caps have smaller surfaces - I just measured the two Topre based boards here and the width of the caps is larger than the Model M sitting here, so that must give the feeling of space.

[mike52787]

I really love the feels of cream alps and other alps switches, but for some reason I just cant type on them quite as fast as on my 62g Ergo clears. However, Capacitive Buckling spring combines the best of both worlds, great feels and great speed. Mind you I love the feel of cream alps and also love the feel of my ergo clears, but capacitive BS comes out on top in both areas. Truly the upper eschelon of keyboard switches. I really need to try beamsprings next, but all the common boards are too large for my taste.

[evoman]

I really love the feels of cream alps and other alps switches, but for some reason I just cant type on them quite as fast as on my 62g Ergo clears. However, Capacitive Buckling spring combines the best of both worlds, great feels and great speed. Mind you I love the feel of cream alps and also love the feel of my ergo clears, but capacitive BS comes out on top in both areas. Truly the upper eschelon of keyboard switches. I really need to try beamsprings next, but all the common boards are too large for my taste.

Glad to hear this since I am still thinking of getting a Model F and this is making me think it will be worth the cost. 

I have always sworn by my Model M, but after spending time on a couple of Topre boards (45g and 55g) the Model M feels how 'rough' - I still like the tactile snap and keycaps, and I still have a much lower error rate on that board, but keep pushing it aside to work on the NovaTouch based on the smooth feel.

(I have a huge desk, so actually have three keyboard connected - which is perhaps counterproductive!  I keep switching between them since i cannot decide which I like best, and that is probably a bad way to every get into a groove on one).

[czarek]

I must say the fastest and most precise for me is MX Blue.

Ok, Topre feels nice, capacitive BS too, but... Topre feels a bit sluggish on travel back top. It's also very hard to determine when the switch actuates, basically forcing me to bottom out. It's fine from time to time but gets painful after a while. With BS it's the sound that irritates me most. I can feel the springs reverberating under my fingers (remember I almost never bottom out so I end key travel while the spring is still a bit loose). Sure it's fun for a moment, but I can't stand using it for extended time. Membrane BS is a bit better in this regard, but it's also on a heavy side and doesn't feel as crisp as capacitive one.

That being said I use pretty much everything, HHKBs (silenced and normal), Realforce (silenced, weighted, used to have 55G stock, but sold it due to being too tiring), AT Model F, Model M, GH60s, Ergodoxes and Filcos with anything cherry like you can think of. My prefered switches are indeed silenced weighted Topres (mostly because Realforce build quality though), vintage MX Blacks with MX Blue springs (I call them ghetto vintage MX Reds) and stock MX Blues which I use the most.

Why? It's ultra light, not tiring at all, and the tactility is enough for me not to bottom out pretty much ever making very precise and ergonomic typing expirence.
The key for those switches to be nice is pairing them with THIN ABS keycaps. Thick caps, especially PBT make them so click high pitched they hurt my ears when typing. It is also important to have a case with a bit of hollowness, like Filco or older Pokers (higher profile plastic ones).

I really do dislike anything cherry tactile, non clicky. That includes browns, clears and tactile Zealios, even though I sometimes use them for couple days/weeks. I also don't particularly like new stock linear cherries, which are scratchy as hell (though that gives them a bit of unique character, which I do like sometimes).

[evoman]

I must say the fastest and most precise for me is MX Blue.

Ok, Topre feels nice, capacitive BS too, but... Topre feels a bit sluggish on travel back top. It's also very hard to determine when the switch actuates, basically forcing me to bottom out. It's fine from time to time but gets painful after a while. With BS it's the sound that irritates me most. I can feel the springs reverberating under my fingers (remember I almost never bottom out so I end key travel while the spring is still a bit loose). Sure it's fun for a moment, but I can't stand using it for extended time. Membrane BS is a bit better in this regard, but it's also on a heavy side and doesn't feel as crisp as capacitive one.

That being said I use pretty much everything, HHKBs (silenced and normal), Realforce (silenced, weighted, used to have 55G stock, but sold it due to being too tiring), AT Model F, Model M, GH60s, Ergodoxes and Filcos with anything cherry like you can think of. My prefered switches are indeed silenced weighted Topres (mostly because Realforce build quality though), vintage MX Blacks with MX Blue springs (I call them ghetto vintage MX Reds) and stock MX Blues which I use the most.

Why? It's ultra light, not tiring at all, and the tactility is enough for me not to bottom out pretty much ever making very precise and ergonomic typing expirence.
The key for those switches to be nice is pairing them with THIN ABS keycaps. Thick caps, especially PBT make them so click high pitched they hurt my ears when typing. It is also important to have a case with a bit of hollowness, like Filco or older Pokers (higher profile plastic ones).

I really do dislike anything cherry tactile, non clicky. That includes browns, clears and tactile Zealios, even though I sometimes use them for couple days/weeks. I also don't particularly like new stock linear cherries, which are scratchy as hell (though that gives them a bit of unique character, which I do like sometimes).

You take jibes with mine, but I have more limited experience (BS, a few Alps types, Topre, MX blue), but didn't like the MX blues that much.  I like them in theory - light and cleanly clicky, but I don't type well on the board I have.  That board is a Noppoo Choc Mini - but I find the caps way too flat for my taste - so do you have a suggestion of a set of keycaps I could pair with those to try to get the feel you are recommending?

[Niomosy]

No Topres in my inventory to test against but I'm generally as fast on a Model M as most other keyboards that aren't MX blues.


I'll take feel over a slight increase in speed every day, though.  Of course, going with MX reds over MX blues, I get both a large speed and a feel increase.

[czarek]

And you are more precise with MX Red or Topre than MX Blues? You feel exactly where you actuate? Come on guys, don't be childish.

Also it greatly depends on typing style. I know many people mash keyboards by keeping fingers above the keycap and pushing quickly with all the force resulting with unavoidable bottom out (well it still can be avoided if you get used to BS). With this technique, really MX Blue feels bad compared to other switches, and even MX Reds don't feel scratchy.

I type very lightly though. I keep my fingers on top of keycaps, maybe slightly above and I press lightly exactly to the point of actuation or tiny bit below, still leaving some space before bottom out. This way my fingers travel only about 3 mm when typing. I learned this technique over the years after getting my first tactile keyboard (my first ever was linear on Amiga 500) when I realised I don't have to mash the keys.
The downside of typing like that (with fingertips constantly traveling on top of keycaps) is that I can't use SA profile and similar keycaps. Basically when pressing Q I feel like I'm also pressing A (even though I'm not) and it's very distracting.

That being said. Topre still makes sense and feels great to type on (butter smooth, light), but hell I'd never say it's precise. There is absolutely no indication when the key actuates (it's somewhere in a middle of a Topre bubble, as easy to tell as in linear switch to be honest). Sure when you have your finger above the key and mash to the bottom, you will feel the tactility giving you feedback that the key actuated, but you don't know when to stop exactly and you bottom out unavoidably.

So really if you want all rounder for speed, accuracy and feels, MX Blue wins it for me. It feels ok, gives clear feedback and is very snappy.

BS would be best if it was only about feels and accuracy. It's in fact more accurate than MX Blue but it feels tiring after a while.
Topre would be best feeling but it's not accurate at all and it does feel a bit sluggish when trying to type fast.
That being said when it's only about feels, ghetto vintange MX Red (vintage blacks with blue springs) are very close to Topre in my books, especially when mounted on an ErgoDox.

[Niomosy]

And you are more precise with MX Red or Topre than MX Blues? You feel exactly where you actuate? Come on guys, don't be childish.

Also it greatly depends on typing style. I know many people mash keyboards by keeping fingers above the keycap and pushing quickly with all the force resulting with unavoidable bottom out (well it still can be avoided if you get used to BS). With this technique, really MX Blue feels bad compared to other switches, and even MX Reds don't feel scratchy.

I type very lightly though. I keep my fingers on top of keycaps, maybe slightly above and I press lightly exactly to the point of actuation or tiny bit below, still leaving some space before bottom out. This way my fingers travel only about 3 mm when typing. I learned this technique over the years after getting my first tactile keyboard (my first ever was linear on Amiga 500) when I realised I don't have to mash the keys.
The downside of typing like that (with fingertips constantly traveling on top of keycaps) is that I can't use SA profile and similar keycaps. Basically when pressing Q I feel like I'm also pressing A (even though I'm not) and it's very distracting.

That being said. Topre still makes sense and feels great to type on (butter smooth, light), but hell I'd never say it's precise. There is absolutely no indication when the key actuates (it's somewhere in a middle of a Topre bubble, as easy to tell as in linear switch to be honest). Sure when you have your finger above the key and mash to the bottom, you will feel the tactility giving you feedback that the key actuated, but you don't know when to stop exactly and you bottom out unavoidably.

So really if you want all rounder for speed, accuracy and feels, MX Blue wins it for me. It feels ok, gives clear feedback and is very snappy.

BS would be best if it was only about feels and accuracy. It's in fact more accurate than MX Blue but it feels tiring after a while.
Topre would be best feeling but it's not accurate at all and it does feel a bit sluggish when trying to type fast.
That being said when it's only about feels, ghetto vintange MX Red (vintage blacks with blue springs) are very close to Topre in my books, especially when mounted on an ErgoDox.

I'm far more  precise with MX reds.  With blues, I don't necessarily make more mistakes but it's only because I'm often having to slow down far more than I would with reds to simply continue my typing.  Blues seem to be my all-around least favorite switch thus far and I'd gladly stick to your average rubber dome than type on blues.

BS isn't a bad switch and I'm faster on BS than blues but it's also not a switch I want to type on for a full day's work both from fatigue and noise perspectives.  Given the choice, though, I would gladly work on a BS keyboard of a blues keyboard.

What I'm more curious about is trying out the new XMIT hall effect board come February and see how it stacks up to my daily driver reds board.  I've got it with the lighter springs but bought the heavier springs should I decide to want to change them out.  Seems like it could be quite a fantastic board and switch.

[czarek]

I'm far more  precise with MX reds.  With blues, I don't necessarily make more mistakes but it's only because I'm often having to slow down far more than I would with reds to simply continue my typing.  Blues seem to be my all-around least favorite switch thus far and I'd gladly stick to your average rubber dome than type on blues.

For me precision means that I know exactly when switch actuated, but ok, everyone is different.

You definitely value speed over precision which is fine, I do that too sometimes. I already said that I do love linear switches, I enjoy using scratchy MX Reds sometimes, even though they're far from my favourite linear switch (this statement would go to my Amiga's NMB space invader keyboard - perfect smoothness, weight, travel, paired with top notch dye sub PBT caps).

Yes BS is super precise (tactility and click occurs exactly on actuation). I use Model Ms and F sometimes but not as much as modern keyboards due to their limitations, being mostly layout in case of Model F and in case of Model M it's again layout but also weighting, key rollover and overall feel of being clunky.

But nope, neither Topre or any linear switch is precise to me by definition really. You have zero indication when the switch actuates. At least with Topre, when you press the key quickly you get a tactile feedback that it actuated, but not exactly when it actuated. It's still more than fine for fast typing though. With linears you don't get even that.

[Mavarina]

My ideal switch is one that is slightly heavier so that I have less accidental keypresses when I want to type faster and also has to be smooth obviously

[davkol]

I type very lightly though. I keep my fingers on top of keycaps, maybe slightly above and I press lightly exactly to the point of actuation or tiny bit below, still leaving some space before bottom out. This way my fingers travel only about 3 mm when typing.

I type exactly like that and can't stand MX Blue or the more tactile Alps SKCM (esp. White and Salmon off the top of my head), because I either use less force than necessary to get past the peak, or kinda get stuck on return.

[Snowdog993]

I guess I will say feel and accuracy. I'm very happy and I am still using this keyboard...

[Niomosy]

I'm far more  precise with MX reds.  With blues, I don't necessarily make more mistakes but it's only because I'm often having to slow down far more than I would with reds to simply continue my typing.  Blues seem to be my all-around least favorite switch thus far and I'd gladly stick to your average rubber dome than type on blues.

For me precision means that I know exactly when switch actuated, but ok, everyone is different.

You definitely value speed over precision which is fine, I do that too sometimes. I already said that I do love linear switches, I enjoy using scratchy MX Reds sometimes, even though they're far from my favourite linear switch (this statement would go to my Amiga's NMB space invader keyboard - perfect smoothness, weight, travel, paired with top notch dye sub PBT caps).

Yes BS is super precise (tactility and click occurs exactly on actuation). I use Model Ms and F sometimes but not as much as modern keyboards due to their limitations, being mostly layout in case of Model F and in case of Model M it's again layout but also weighting, key rollover and overall feel of being clunky.

But nope, neither Topre or any linear switch is precise to me by definition really. You have zero indication when the switch actuates. At least with Topre, when you press the key quickly you get a tactile feedback that it actuated, but not exactly when it actuated. It's still more than fine for fast typing though. With linears you don't get even that.

For me precision is typing accuracy.  Knowing when a switch has activated is easy enough for me on linear switches that I need no tactility to do so.  At worst, I bottom out and know that to be my indicator of activation.  It's fast enough that the slight difference between real activation and bottom out point makes no real world difference to me.  The added indicator of a tactile switch just creates problems for me while solving none.

[ArchDill]

I LOVE me some Gat Blacks. for me it is the feel and I can type better with them.

[DRAZAH]

My ideal switch is actually SOUND. The main reason I bought the HHKB was specifically for the Sound followed by size/layout. To me, I don't really care how nice a keyboard looks, how expensive the keycaps are, or how statistically accurate it is because if it sounds cheap and "plastic-y" then I automatically don't like it. I like to have multiple keyboards for my collection but as far as Ideal keyboard usage I really have a daily driver that I use at work and home for 10+ hours a day. The Topre "thock" is like nothing else and I can't give it up.

[Snowdog993]

For me precision is typing accuracy.  Knowing when a switch has activated is easy enough for me on linear switches that I need no tactility to do so.  At worst, I bottom out and know that to be my indicator of activation.  It's fast enough that the slight difference between real activation and bottom out point makes no real world difference to me.  The added indicator of a tactile switch just creates problems for me while solving none.

Yay for you! Us non-worthy individuals have to have the tactile feel as well as the sound in order to type efficiently. You're just too far advanced for me to fathom. Enjoy!

[chyros]

My ideal switch is actually SOUND. The main reason I bought the HHKB was specifically for the Sound followed by size/layout. To me, I don't really care how nice a keyboard looks, how expensive the keycaps are, or how statistically accurate it is because if it sounds cheap and "plastic-y" then I automatically don't like it. I like to have multiple keyboards for my collection but as far as Ideal keyboard usage I really have a daily driver that I use at work and home for 10+ hours a day. The Topre "thock" is like nothing else and I can't give it up.

You should try out blue Alps .

[Niomosy]

For me precision is typing accuracy.  Knowing when a switch has activated is easy enough for me on linear switches that I need no tactility to do so.  At worst, I bottom out and know that to be my indicator of activation.  It's fast enough that the slight difference between real activation and bottom out point makes no real world difference to me.  The added indicator of a tactile switch just creates problems for me while solving none.

Yay for you! Us non-worthy individuals have to have the tactile feel as well as the sound in order to type efficiently. You're just too far advanced for me to fathom. Enjoy!

Not sure what you're getting at.  The activation point for me is either bottom-out or somewhere near that.  The difference between the two points is minimal enough that it doesn't really impact my typing.  Then again, I'm flying at 160wpm so maybe the difference doesn't matter to me so much as it might others.